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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by jonathan revusky <jo...@yahoo.com> on 2006/03/28 05:08:34 UTC
I Apologize
I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
Regards,
Jonathan
Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
People are supposed to stop trying to get a decent or any answer to a real
question because the Struts committers and their toadies turn it into a
flame war? I see Jonathan as fairly calm under the circumstances and the
more he asks people to answer the question the goofier they become. But,
there being goofy is hardly a reason to stop trying to get an answer. I
would bet that if someone with any sense tried to answer the question things
would change quick. I notice that NO ONE on the Struts PMC has tried to
answer the question. Rather, they have tried to continue the ruse by
fanning the flames they say they hate. This is not a fair suggestion,
Jason. I think Jonathon and others, have a right to keep asking for an
answer until one is forthcoming and not have to stop trying to get one
because the toadies, Newton, Mitchell, etc. are excrementing.
On 3/28/06, Jason King <jh...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
> Folks,
> Perhaps its time to table all the "I apologize", "has struts reached its
> limits", "are the rules for becoming a committer fair" etc threads to
> bed for while. I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point
> where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps
> letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive.
> At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if
> anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks.
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
> >>incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
> >>truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
> >>really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I
> would
> >>have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me.
> Are
> >>you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
> >>(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
> >>dudes stealing your lunch money?).
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
> >years ago, and it still is today.
> >
> >Hen
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jason King <jh...@airmail.net>.
Folks,
Perhaps its time to table all the "I apologize", "has struts reached its
limits", "are the rules for becoming a committer fair" etc threads to
bed for while. I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point
where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps
letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive.
At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if
anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks.
Henri Yandell wrote:
>On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
>>incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
>>truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
>>really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
>>have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
>>you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
>>(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
>>dudes stealing your lunch money?).
>>
>>
>
>Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
>years ago, and it still is today.
>
>Hen
>
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>
>
>
>
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
> nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
> conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
> to retaliate with much the same approach.
>
> That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.
>
You're absolutely right :)
I'm done!
Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
>>>nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
>>>conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
>>>to retaliate with much the same approach.
>>
>>You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with
>>much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing
>>what I did at some point?
>>
>>When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an
>>email by any name but my own?
>
>
> I mean the same style of approach, rather than details.
Methinks you are trying to weasel out. :-(
The "details" in question involve posting private correspondence to a
public list, spoofing identities. Also, there is a continual pattern of
people responding to messages with personal insults and making no
attempt to engage in legitimate debate.
These are not little "details" that can be abstracted away unless your
intent is to mislead and deceive. My messages have always focused on
legitimate arguments and debate. To abstract away with this "same style
of approach" line seems basically mendacious.
So, Henri, I'd like you to retract the above statement, the stuff about
how the people engaging in these attacks against me were "retaliating
with the same approach". It constitutes a very unworthy attempt on your
part to distort the truth and misprepresent what has been happening. I
read this several times and I consider it to be such a distortion of the
truth that you owe me an apology.
Now, if you still maintain that behavior of mine has been broadly
comparable to this James Mitchell posting private email or Rick
Reumann's lame spoof or even Larry Measors's juvenile "butt-monkey" post
with no attempts to say anything legitimate, then please produce such
examples. I will make it very easy for you. Every single message I have
posted here up to this point in the conversation can be found here:
http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt
The stuff I wrote is clearly distinct from the quoted material by the
usual convention. The quoted material begins with >, right? The quoted
material is necessary for context, of course.
It's a straight text file, so you can simply point out line numbers, if
need be.
I submit to you that I have never engaged in this kind of personal
attack. I have said sharp things to people, but they were appropriate --
or at the very least understandable -- in the context of a legitimate,
perhaps heated debate. If this is not so, in your opinion, provide the
line numbers.
Otherwise, this stuff about how I did the same things to these people
that they are doing, you have to retract it because it's not true.
> If someone
> enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with
> the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth
> generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of
> adrenalin bursts.
Here is the same mendacious discourse: "the same aggression" etcetera.
You are clearly implying that I have done the same things these people
have done. This is not true.
>
> It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute
> reply to avoid one.
>
>
>>Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need
>>to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you
>>there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth.
>>Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that
>>does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.
>>
>>Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad
>>guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of
>>"nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention.
>
>
> "I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in
> reacting to the email".
Well, if a key component of your "style" involves mendacity, I think you
really ought to find some other "style", not necessarily adopting my
style, but simply a "style" that incorporates a respect for the truth.
Again, I provide you everything I ever wrote on this list.
http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt
If you want to claim that I engage in ad-hominem attacks like these
people, back up what you say. I don't think you can.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
P.S. In your opinion, why did Struts development stagnate?
>
> As a general opinion aimed at everyone:
>
> [all]
> Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking
> without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use
> 'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual
> does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own
> position within the community.
>
> Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just
> do a braindump and send, that helps nobody), de-escalate rather than
> escalate. _Especially_ when you are talking about emotional issues
> like brand and community. What works for a technical argument does not
> work for a social argument.
>
> This is just an opinion. I've had just the one tiny patch applied to
> Struts, so have not contributed to this community. Take it how you
> want.
> [/all]
>
> Hen
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> > On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Henri Yandell wrote:
> >>
> >>>Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
> >>>years ago, and it still is today.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
> >>deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
> >
> >
> > I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
> > the next email.
> >
> > I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
> > you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
> > the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)
> >
> > However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
> > nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
> > conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
> > to retaliate with much the same approach.
>
> You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with
> much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing
> what I did at some point?
>
> When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an
> email by any name but my own?
I mean the same style of approach, rather than details. If someone
enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with
the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth
generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of
adrenalin bursts.
It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute
reply to avoid one.
> Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need
> to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you
> there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth.
> Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that
> does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.
>
> Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad
> guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of
> "nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention.
"I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in
reacting to the email".
As a general opinion aimed at everyone:
[all]
Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking
without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use
'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual
does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own
position within the community.
Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just
do a braindump and send, that helps nobody), de-escalate rather than
escalate. _Especially_ when you are talking about emotional issues
like brand and community. What works for a technical argument does not
work for a social argument.
This is just an opinion. I've had just the one tiny patch applied to
Struts, so have not contributed to this community. Take it how you
want.
[/all]
Hen
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
>>Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>>Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
>>>years ago, and it still is today.
>>>
>>
>>I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
>>deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
>
>
> I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
> the next email.
>
> I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
> you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
> the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)
>
> However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
> nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
> conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
> to retaliate with much the same approach.
You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with
much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing
what I did at some point?
When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an
email by any name but my own?
Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need
to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you
there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth.
Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that
does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.
Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad
guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of
"nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.
>
> Hen
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
A breath of fresh air. Thank you, Henri.
On 3/28/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> > Henri Yandell wrote:
> > > Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
> > > years ago, and it still is today.
> > >
> >
> > I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
> > deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
>
> I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
> the next email.
>
> I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
> you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
> the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)
>
> However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
> nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
> conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
> to retaliate with much the same approach.
>
> That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> > Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
> > years ago, and it still is today.
> >
>
> I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
> deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
the next email.
I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)
However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
to retaliate with much the same approach.
That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.
Hen
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
> years ago, and it still is today.
>
I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
Heck, I even thought they were funny 20 years ago, and back then we had
to UUCP our newsfeed over 1200 and 2400 baud modems and it took longer.
Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
> incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
> truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
> really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
> have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
> you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
> (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
> dudes stealing your lunch money?).
Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
years ago, and it still is today.
Hen
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
Well, true, who can blame him, I mean...I am kinda dead sexy with the
"March in Montana" pallor.
Larry
On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!
>
>
> It must be that nice Montana tan that you have.
>
> --
> Rick
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!
It must be that nice Montana tan that you have.
--
Rick
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
... and as I said in the other thread ... you *lucky bast%rds!*, we
floor level developers can't get away with such behavoiur. you must
have *such* income security! do you sell Amway on the side or something?
Larry Meadors wrote:
>Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!
>
>Larry
>
>PS:
>
>To add insult to injury, you forgot the "a" there - "It was supposed
>to be *a* joke"...so make that "Way to go Rick, you illiterate
>butt-monkey".
>
>
>On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
>>incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
>>truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
>>really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
>>have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
>>you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
>>(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
>>dudes stealing your lunch money?).
>>
>>On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!
Larry
PS:
To add insult to injury, you forgot the "a" there - "It was supposed
to be *a* joke"...so make that "Way to go Rick, you illiterate
butt-monkey".
On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
> incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
> truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
> really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
> have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
> you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
> (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
> dudes stealing your lunch money?).
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> > In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.
> >
> > jonathan revusky wrote:
> > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
> > recently.
> > >
> > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
> > girls
> > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
> > and
> > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
> > its awesomness is WebWork.
> > >
> > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
> > all
> > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
> > really
> > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
> > see.
> > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> > >
> > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> > rates starting at 1¢/min.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rick
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Don't do it again, Rick.
Or else!
Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Rick Reumann wrote:
> Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
> incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
> truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
> really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
> have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
> you scared?"
Interesting. I never asked that question openly, I don't think. I think
it's something you were wondering about maybe... :-)
> The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
> (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
> dudes stealing your lunch money?).
Don't do it again, Rick.
As for this "It's just an innocent joke stuff", we are not on a level of
familiarity for you to take confidences like this.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com>.
Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are
you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
dudes stealing your lunch money?).
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.
>
> jonathan revusky wrote:
> > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
> recently.
> >
> > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
> girls
> > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
> and
> > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
> its awesomness is WebWork.
> >
> > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
> all
> > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
> really
> > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
> see.
> > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> >
> > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Rick
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.
jonathan revusky wrote:
> I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
>
> I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
> ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
> take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
>
> I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
> did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
> wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
> All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
>
> Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan
>
> Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Gandhi walked to the sea to get salt for poor people who were dying. His
"humming" is a mantra related to a sacred religious practice. I really
cannot see you as a Gandhi, Henri. But, your perception of yourself is your
business. This was not directed to you.
I am starting to think that people on this list don't know how to manage
their email.
Is it possible to address the issues at hand? I have seen everything in the
world discussed by the committers and those who would like to be committers
but nothing about the issue of an analysis of the failure of Struts
dedicated to the idea that it won't happen again. If you don't want it to
happen again, and I don't, then something has to change unless you are not
only into playing God and telling others to shut up but also into magical
thinking generally. Let's do a hard nosed inventory of what went wrong and
get on with it. Is that possible? Is is possible to acknowledge that
things went south and then to try and fix the causes of that problem? Is
that a bad thing?
On 3/28/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've always thought I had a Gandhi complex, not a God one.
>
> *Sits in the road and hums until people are nice to each other and
> other such things that only happen in cartoons for 5 year olds - like
> talking goldfish*
>
> Hen
>
> On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thank you for this decision from on high, Dreary Morals. I guess you
> are
> > going to stop the car now? LOL Sorry about the anagram. I couldn't
> > resist. Anyway, I think that people should talk if they want to even if
> you
> > and others with this God-complex want them to stop. Just don't read it
> for
> > God's sake. Let others be and deal with your own mess.
> >
> > On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > *sigh*
> > >
> > > Enough noise.
> > >
> > > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
I've always thought I had a Gandhi complex, not a God one.
*Sits in the road and hums until people are nice to each other and
other such things that only happen in cartoons for 5 year olds - like
talking goldfish*
Hen
On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for this decision from on high, Dreary Morals. I guess you are
> going to stop the car now? LOL Sorry about the anagram. I couldn't
> resist. Anyway, I think that people should talk if they want to even if you
> and others with this God-complex want them to stop. Just don't read it for
> God's sake. Let others be and deal with your own mess.
>
> On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > Enough noise.
> >
> > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Thank you for this decision from on high, Dreary Morals. I guess you are
going to stop the car now? LOL Sorry about the anagram. I couldn't
resist. Anyway, I think that people should talk if they want to even if you
and others with this God-complex want them to stop. Just don't read it for
God's sake. Let others be and deal with your own mess.
On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> *sigh*
>
> Enough noise.
>
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
*sigh*
Enough noise.
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>Paul really seemed to see moral equivalence between me and the people
>>engaging in the vicious attacks -- consider James Mitchell, who was
>>posting a private message in public in order to fan the flames.
>
>
> Or in order to point out what an ass you really are or how you conduct
> yourself when you believe nobody's watching.
So, let me get this straight, Dave. Do you think that the above (in this
case a private email I wrote to James Mitchell) is remotely of interest
or on-topic to this mailing list?
And please, I request that you not answer the above question with some
other question or distraction or whatever. Please just stay focused a
sec and answer that question:
Was it IYO appropriate for him to post that here? (You might consider
also that James Mitchell is on the Struts Project Management Committee.)
>
>
>>(This is a place where people are terrified to express disagreement.
>>They even openly speculate that there will be retaliation against
>>their careers and so on. This scene is seriously FUBAR!)
>
>
> Wow, I have _zero_ fear of expressing disagreement here, and I don't
> think too many other people are "terrified" either.
>
>
>>In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
>>this, that or the other thing?
>
>
> Same person you are to be telling me and others here that we should be
> doing this, that, or the other thing, I guess!
Well, you've so aggressively snipped above that you are not addressing
the argument.My original argument is not visible in the remaining quoted
text. I was saying that, by making criticisms, by availing themselves of
their right to free speech, people are not generally incurring an
obligation to fix whatever it is themselves.
In your post I am replying to here, you just seem to tacitly assume that
my behavior (even off-list!!!) is an appropriate topic of discussion
here. I mean, let's suppose we debate this issue and resolve that, yes,
I am a terrible person. How would this further anything for the Struts
community? Meanwhile, the basic question of why Struts development
stagnated is supposedly off-topic and illegitimate.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Dave
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Paul really seemed to see moral equivalence between me and the people
> engaging in the vicious attacks -- consider James Mitchell, who was
> posting a private message in public in order to fan the flames.
Or in order to point out what an ass you really are or how you conduct
yourself when you believe nobody's watching.
> (This is a place where people are terrified to express disagreement.
> They even openly speculate that there will be retaliation against
> their careers and so on. This scene is seriously FUBAR!)
Wow, I have _zero_ fear of expressing disagreement here, and I don't
think too many other people are "terrified" either.
> In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
> this, that or the other thing?
Same person you are to be telling me and others here that we should be
doing this, that, or the other thing, I guess!
Dave
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Vinny wrote:
> Actually he has. The apache project known as iBAtis: http://ibatis.apache.org
Yeah, I see he is a committer there. The world is full of surprises. I
assumed, from his discourse, that Larry had never really been involved
in open source projects himself. Just from the way he talks. I don't
know the extent of his contribution there but I'm surprised.
Still, Larry's involvement in iBatis is not relevant to the overall
argument I made in the original "Debate and Free Speech 101" post. To
engage in political speech about certain problems does not oblige the
speaker to go out and fix the problems himself. If I criticize the US
policies in Iraq, I don't have to go to Iraq myself to sort it out.
Besides, if somebody thinks the whole policy there is miguided, to tell
that person to go join the army and go off to help fix things there
makes no sense, because he'd just be part of implementing the same (in
his opinion) misguided policies, right?
Similarly, people are perfectly free to ask the question of why Struts
development stagnated without incurring the obligation to go try to fix
that mess. It's a legitimate question. It can be discussed. This whole
fascist stuff of trying to shut people up and cut off debate is really
too much. Vinny, you should really think about this stuff a bit more, dude.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>
>>In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
>>this, that or the other thing? Have you made any comparable contribution
>>to this application space?
>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>P.S. Amusingly, I initially entitled this post "Debate and Free Speech
>>for Dummies". Then I realized that some of the blowhards would likely
>>accuse me of insulting everybody -- pretending that they didn't
>>understand that it was an allusion to the XXX for Dummies book series.
>>So I changed it "for Dummies" to 101 at the last minute before sending it.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>>smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>>can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>>
>>>But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>>
>>>Larry
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
Actually he has. The apache project known as iBAtis: http://ibatis.apache.org
> In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
> this, that or the other thing? Have you made any comparable contribution
> to this application space?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> P.S. Amusingly, I initially entitled this post "Debate and Free Speech
> for Dummies". Then I realized that some of the blowhards would likely
> accuse me of insulting everybody -- pretending that they didn't
> understand that it was an allusion to the XXX for Dummies book series.
> So I changed it "for Dummies" to 101 at the last minute before sending it.
>
>
> > Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
> >
> > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
> >
> > Larry
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
Man there are some kickes in the ass wasted in this world.
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Larry Meadors wrote:
> > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
> >
> > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> >>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
> >
> >
> > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> > say this after a personal attack.
>
> [sigh]
>
> I reiterate: the people engaging in personal attacks had the option of
> debating and chose the ad-hominem route.
>
> >
> >>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
> >>of moral equivalence out of this.
> >
> >
> > ...then follow it with another...
> >
> >
> >>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
> >>and other sophistry in college.
>
> The above is not a personal attack. It is within the range of legitimate
> rhetoric. Paul really seemed to see moral equivalence between me and the
> people engaging in the vicious attacks -- consider James Mitchell, who
> was posting a private message in public in order to fan the flames.
>
> > ...and another.
> >
> > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.
> >
> > I see two courses of action for you Jon:
> >
> > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> > something else.
>
> The Struts developers themselves decided that the code was quite
> inferior and did find something else. Webwork. They convinced the
> Webwork people to donate their code as the basis of Struts Action 2.
>
> The Struts 1.x codebase is basically being abandoned.
>
> > Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> > training on the Next Big Thing.
> >
> > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> > about it.
>
> Larry, you seem to have a basic misconception. If somebody engages in
> political speech that criticizes some situation, they do not
> automatically take on an obligation to remedy the situation themselves.
>
> Usually they are not in a position to do so. For example, in the
> appropriate context, someone can perfectly well criticize the situation
> in Iraq and bad decisions made there. They could argue that Rumsfeld and
> even Bush should resign over this. Do you think such blunt talk on this
> creates an obligation for the speaker to go to Iraq himself and sort out
> the mess?
>
> What your counterargument is like is like telling that person to go to
> Iraq and remedy the situation himself. It's asinine. Also, it is absurd
> to suggest that I go to work to remedy the Struts 1.x codebase when the
> actual Struts developers have basically abandoned this codebase.
>
> Meanwhile, I have made some substantial contributions to the java web
> application space. And I intend to continue to do so. So I cannot be
> classified someone who just makes noise and does not contribute
> technically. However, what contributions I make will be in the context
> of an open source community that I do not consider to be dysfunctional,
> like this one. I will be continuing a collaboration with people that I
> like and who share some of my basic attitudes and values. For example,
> in the FreeMarker community people there are not afraid to disagree with
> me in public. Go check it out. Isn't that radical? (This is a place
> where people are terrified to express disagreement. They even openly
> speculate that there will be retaliation against their careers and so
> on. This scene is seriously FUBAR!)
>
> In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
> this, that or the other thing? Have you made any comparable contribution
> to this application space?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> P.S. Amusingly, I initially entitled this post "Debate and Free Speech
> for Dummies". Then I realized that some of the blowhards would likely
> accuse me of insulting everybody -- pretending that they didn't
> understand that it was an allusion to the XXX for Dummies book series.
> So I changed it "for Dummies" to 101 at the last minute before sending it.
>
>
> > Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
> >
> > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
> >
> > Larry
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Debate and Free Speech 101
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>
>
> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> say this after a personal attack.
[sigh]
I reiterate: the people engaging in personal attacks had the option of
debating and chose the ad-hominem route.
>
>>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
>>of moral equivalence out of this.
>
>
> ...then follow it with another...
>
>
>>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
>>and other sophistry in college.
The above is not a personal attack. It is within the range of legitimate
rhetoric. Paul really seemed to see moral equivalence between me and the
people engaging in the vicious attacks -- consider James Mitchell, who
was posting a private message in public in order to fan the flames.
> ...and another.
>
> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.
>
> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>
> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> something else.
The Struts developers themselves decided that the code was quite
inferior and did find something else. Webwork. They convinced the
Webwork people to donate their code as the basis of Struts Action 2.
The Struts 1.x codebase is basically being abandoned.
> Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> training on the Next Big Thing.
>
> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> about it.
Larry, you seem to have a basic misconception. If somebody engages in
political speech that criticizes some situation, they do not
automatically take on an obligation to remedy the situation themselves.
Usually they are not in a position to do so. For example, in the
appropriate context, someone can perfectly well criticize the situation
in Iraq and bad decisions made there. They could argue that Rumsfeld and
even Bush should resign over this. Do you think such blunt talk on this
creates an obligation for the speaker to go to Iraq himself and sort out
the mess?
What your counterargument is like is like telling that person to go to
Iraq and remedy the situation himself. It's asinine. Also, it is absurd
to suggest that I go to work to remedy the Struts 1.x codebase when the
actual Struts developers have basically abandoned this codebase.
Meanwhile, I have made some substantial contributions to the java web
application space. And I intend to continue to do so. So I cannot be
classified someone who just makes noise and does not contribute
technically. However, what contributions I make will be in the context
of an open source community that I do not consider to be dysfunctional,
like this one. I will be continuing a collaboration with people that I
like and who share some of my basic attitudes and values. For example,
in the FreeMarker community people there are not afraid to disagree with
me in public. Go check it out. Isn't that radical? (This is a place
where people are terrified to express disagreement. They even openly
speculate that there will be retaliation against their careers and so
on. This scene is seriously FUBAR!)
In closing, Larry, who are you to be telling me that I should be doing
this, that or the other thing? Have you made any comparable contribution
to this application space?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
P.S. Amusingly, I initially entitled this post "Debate and Free Speech
for Dummies". Then I realized that some of the blowhards would likely
accuse me of insulting everybody -- pretending that they didn't
understand that it was an allusion to the XXX for Dummies book series.
So I changed it "for Dummies" to 101 at the last minute before sending it.
> Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>
> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>
> Larry
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Karsten Krieg wrote:
Karsten, for a response to your points below, I direct you to my
response to Bart Busschots in this same thread. You may consider that
this is also response to you.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> Guys,
>
> Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their
> problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to
> see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about
> whatever.
>
> Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and
> for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy.
>
> Statistics for the last two weeks:
> Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380
> User questions asked and answered: 591
>
> Think about that.
> Regards
> Karsten Krieg
>
> OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls...
>
> "Dakota Jack" <da...@gmail.com> schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37:
>
>
>>Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that
>
> your
>
>>points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are
>
> logical?
>
>>
>>
>>On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>>LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>>
>>>On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every
>
> chance
>
>>>>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>>
>>>OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>>>debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>>>say this after a personal attack.
>>>
>>>
>>>>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some
>
> kind
>
>>>>of moral equivalence out of this.
>>>
>>>...then follow it with another...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral
>
> relativism
>
>>>>and other sophistry in college.
>>>
>>>...and another.
>>>
>>>This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from
>
> bizzarro
>
>>>world.
>>>
>>>I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>>>
>>>If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>>>something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>>>ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>>>you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>>>training on the Next Big Thing.
>>>
>>>If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>>>about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>>smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>>can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>>
>>>But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>>~Dakota Jack~
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by DG...@EvergreenInvestments.com.
Ignore them. Both DakotaJackAss and Jonathan Revulsion thrive on what
they perceive as inflammatory responses. There is no use responding to
anything they post, because they never stop and ALWAYS reply to anything
you send their way.
-Dennis
"Larry Meadors" <lm...@apache.org>
Sent by: larry.meadors@gmail.com
03/29/2006 10:01 AM
Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
To
"Dakota Jack" <da...@gmail.com>
cc
"Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Subject
Re: I Apologize
What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.
I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.
Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
suits gave you.
:-)
Larry
On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that
your
> points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are
logical?
>
>
>
>
> On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>
> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> say this after a personal attack.
>
> > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some
kind
> > of moral equivalence out of this.
>
> ...then follow it with another...
>
> > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral
relativism
> > and other sophistry in college.
>
> ...and another.
>
> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
> world.
>
> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>
> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> training on the Next Big Thing.
>
> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>
> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>
> Larry
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> [...] but don't tell other people what to do.
Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.
Larry, I already refuted this "complex" argument of yours in my post
entitled "Debate and Free Speech 101".
I pointed out that criticizing U.S. policy in Iraq does not obligate the
person criticizing to go to Iraq himself and resolve the problems.
It is also silly to suggest that when the Struts 1.x codebase has become
so technically obsolescent that the Struts developers themselves don't
want to work on it, that I should do so.
The question of why development on that codebase stagnated is quite
appropriate. If you don't care or don't have an opinion on that topic,
then just don't participate in the discussion, but don't tell other
people what to do.
>
> I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.
It's not complex logic evading anybody. It's simply that you are
trotting out a logical fallacy.
In any case, as regards telling _me_ to "put up or shut up", you are
talking to somebody who has made significant contributions to this
application space.
To the best of my knowledge, you have made no comparable contributions.
This really takes a lot of gall on your part.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
> suits gave you.
>
> :-)
>
> Larry
>
>
> On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your
>>points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>
>>On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>
>>OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>>debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>>say this after a personal attack.
>>
>>
>>>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
>>>of moral equivalence out of this.
>>
>>...then follow it with another...
>>
>>
>>>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
>>>and other sophistry in college.
>>
>>...and another.
>>
>>This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
>>world.
>>
>>I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>>
>>If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>>something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>>ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>>you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>>training on the Next Big Thing.
>>
>>If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>>about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>
>>But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>
>>Larry
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>>~Dakota Jack~
>>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.
I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.
Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
suits gave you.
:-)
Larry
On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your
> points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical?
>
>
>
>
> On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>
> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> say this after a personal attack.
>
> > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
> > of moral equivalence out of this.
>
> ...then follow it with another...
>
> > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
> > and other sophistry in college.
>
> ...and another.
>
> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
> world.
>
> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>
> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> training on the Next Big Thing.
>
> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>
> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>
> Larry
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Karsten Krieg <kk...@intarsys.de>.
Guys,
Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their
problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to
see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about
whatever.
Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and
for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy.
Statistics for the last two weeks:
Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380
User questions asked and answered: 591
Think about that.
Regards
Karsten Krieg
OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls...
"Dakota Jack" <da...@gmail.com> schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37:
> Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that
your
> points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are
logical?
>
>
>
> On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
> >
> > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every
chance
> > > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
> >
> > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> > say this after a personal attack.
> >
> > > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some
kind
> > > of moral equivalence out of this.
> >
> > ...then follow it with another...
> >
> > > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral
relativism
> > > and other sophistry in college.
> >
> > ...and another.
> >
> > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from
bizzarro
> > world.
> >
> > I see two courses of action for you Jon:
> >
> > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> > something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> > training on the Next Big Thing.
> >
> > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> > about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
> >
> > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your
points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical?
On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>
> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> say this after a personal attack.
>
> > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
> > of moral equivalence out of this.
>
> ...then follow it with another...
>
> > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
> > and other sophistry in college.
>
> ...and another.
>
> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
> world.
>
> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>
> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> training on the Next Big Thing.
>
> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>
> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>
> Larry
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>> As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
>> the subject of my first Markov chaining program.
> What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about?
Uh... I'm talking about the first time I wrote a Markov chaining
program, just like I said.
> You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so.
Really? I thought it was longer ago than that... must have blocked it out.
> Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and
> there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list?
Because I love listening to you spray.
And it increases the accuracy of my Markov chaining program.
Although your love letter to James threw it off because (I guess) you
only cuss people out via private email. I'll have to re-run everything
without that one to avoid inaccuracy.
I gotta admit, though, it was priceless, and I still get all warm and
fuzzy when I think about it.
> On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do
> have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few
> posts have definitely been superfluous.
*rotflmao*
Oh! You were serious?! Gosh, Jonathon, I really do appreciate the advice.
Dave "Kettle" Newton
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Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Troll Alert <tr...@gmail.com>.
Members of list:
troll >> /dev/null
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls
OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
List members. Here I am sorry for the off-topic. Dave Newton seems to be
insinuating something -- though it's not 100% clear what.
> Larry Meadors wrote:
>
>>LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>
>
>
> Who has the time?
>
> As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
> the subject of my first Markov chaining program.
What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about?
>
> Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
> couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
> the Markov chaining program.
>
> Neither, apparently, could people on the list.
You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so. It gets vague
in one's memory, but you seem to be babbling. Just like in this case,
everybody on that list knew which posts were written by me and which
ones weren't.
Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and
there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list?
You know, there's no guarantee that anything you write on a public forum
is useful or interesting to everybody there. That is why I find
ridiculous this idea that the presence of threads that some people
aren't interested in is such a problem.
On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do
have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few
posts have definitely been superfluous.
Jonathan
>
> Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Dear Veto Wanted,
Would you care to add anything of substance? I have decided, until you
prove otherwise, that you simply are incapable of adult conversation.
On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Larry Meadors wrote:
> > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
> >
>
> Who has the time?
>
> As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
> the subject of my first Markov chaining program.
>
> Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
> couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
> the Markov chaining program.
>
> Neither, apparently, could people on the list.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
Who has the time?
As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
the subject of my first Markov chaining program.
Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
the Markov chaining program.
Neither, apparently, could people on the list.
Dave
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Bart Busschots wrote:
>
>> What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?
>
>
> Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the
> question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal
> attacks. The question is:
>
> "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>
> You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because
> of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less
> and less competitive with other things in the same space.
>
> This whole thing has led to a so-called "merger" with one of the more
> prominent competitors, Webwork. The term "merger" is (deliberately)
> misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache
> incubator, *is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have
> recognized that the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course,
> if they themselves recognize this, then the premise of the above
> question, that Struts development did in fact stagnate, is not in
> dispute by anybody.
>
> The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a
> distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal
> attacks. And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri
> Yandell did recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who
> posed this question, was engaging in personal attacks.
Indeed .... and that is probably not a healthy thing, however, going on
and on and on about it for weeks on end is not actually getting us
anywhere. The question has been asked (and asked and asked .........)
and it is clear that no answer is coming. There is no point in hammering
on about it anymore IMO. All it is doing is annoying people and driving
people away from Struts.
>> All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone
>> totally belly up.
>
>
> This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate
> question, people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one
> group of people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up
> with mud all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the
> real mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an
> effective distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and
> so forth.
>
>> There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts user and I find
>> that this list has become a pure annoyance of late rather than being
>> helpful like it used to be.
>
>
> I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political
> content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose
> any more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow
> technical posts that don't interest you.
>
I spend more time deleting posts than I do reading posts and I'm sure
I'm missing good stuff too that is accidently getting nuked along with
the continued rantings and ravings on this one topic. This same topic
has now been re-hashed over and over again under many titles. It's just
pointless. The more email people get on this topic the LESS attention
they will pay to it. Hence, the longer this keeps up the less anyone
will care whether or not you ever get the answer you want.
> The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and
> others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at
> which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's
> quite illuminating.
>
>> This is not helping struts. This kind of conversation should not be
>> on the main users list.
>
>
> I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The
> topic of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow
> technical point
> in order to be of interest to Struts users.
It may have BEEN legitimate traffic but it has become nothing more than
an annoyance and a disstraction at this stage. It is not enlightening
anyone anymore.
>
> Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow
> technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a
> few are.
This is true but those narrow threads tend to be short and to the point.
Almost all signal and almost no noise. They also serve as a great
resource for others in the future.
>
> What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a
> lot of people who don't quite understand what open source software is
> about. I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but
> they have a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders
> who write this stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go
> pick it up and use it.
>
> The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the
> developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give
> feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as
> well. There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who
> initiate the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody
> should be listening to mere users.
>
Well I'm not one of those people. I have a very clear understanding of
what opensource is all about. And yes, it is important to listen to
users but there has to be a balance. If the coders spend all their time
replying ot users and changing their requirements mid-flow then no
actual coding will get done and the project will go no where. There are
times when developers need to be able to say "that's very interesting
and we'll bear it in mind for the future but right now we need to just
finish this first" and users need to accept that and let the developers
get on with actually delivering something! I've personally witnessed
projects die a death because users never let the coders actually code
and in the end the coders just gave up because they couldn't win. If
they got their heads down and tried to jsut DO something they were
accused of not consulting, if they spent their time answering each
query, question and suggestion then they got no code done because there
was no time left and they got abuse for not delivering. It was a no win
situation and they threw in the towel. And yes, I was one of the coders
in the above example. There are times when you just need to let the guys
build the damd bikeshed and leave them at it for a while. Perhaps this
is one of those times, perhaps not, I don't know but it's something I
think people should bear in mind.
> I think these kinds of attitudes have been a factor that led to the
> stagnation.
>
And as I showed above, constantly demanding feedback and changes mid
flow can also result in stagnation or termination.
> Bart, I have just checked one thing, I was curious about it. You have
> written a total of 8 messages on this list. 2 of the 8 messages have
> been dedicated to decrying the existence of this discussion.
>
> Of the remaining 6 posts, I don't see you helping anybody out. The one
> exception *might* be this post.
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/121858
>
> But that is not exactly an extensive record of extending yourself to
> help anybody.
>
> But basically, aside from that one and the two other posts decrying
> this thread, you simply ask some narrow technical question when you
> need some help and some good samaritan helps you. Well, in short,
> Bart, you seem to be one of the many people who takes and gives
> nothing back. That's normal, that's most people in this open source
> world.
You are indeed correct. Why have I not helped people on the list?
Simple, I am still too much of a newbie to struts to feel confident
giving out advice. The blind leading the blind and all that. Should a
question come up that happens to fall within my range of experience you
can rest assured you'll see me answer the question (assuming I haven't
gotten so sick of the noise on this list that I've left that is)
>
> However, to be such a person and then be "threatening" to unsubscribe
> is rather silly, I think.
I'm an average, run of the mill user. I am annoyed to the point of
questioning the wisdom of the whole struts thing because of the carryone
of apparent adults on this list. That is something that I think the
people who run struts should be interested in hearing. I was not a
threat, just a fact. Perhaps it is time for some moderation on this list
to get things back to a more civilized and productive tone.
>
> Anyway, since you asked what the question was, I told you. Do you have
> an opinion? If you have one, you certainly have every right to express
> it.
>
I have indeed now formed an opinion. I now know that I don't care WHERE
the code for Action 2 came from, I don't CARE whether it's called struts
or webworks, I don't CARE whether or not the term merger is used instead
of take over. What I care about is that struts keeps existing because it
is a good system that I enjoy working with. It has made my life easier
so it can't be all bad!
We are supposed to be techies not politicians, I'd love to see this list
revert to being a place for technical discussions and see all the
politics move away to some other list or to private email or what ever,
just no on this users list.
Bart.
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
I have been on this list since '00 and this is the fastest they have
been releasing.
Thanks for the fast pace devs. (I do not mean to be sarcastic, I do
think the pace is quite fast).
.V
>
> "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Bart Busschots wrote:
> What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?
Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the
question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal
attacks. The question is:
"Why did Struts development stagnate?"
You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because
of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less
and less competitive with other things in the same space.
This whole thing has led to a so-called "merger" with one of the more
prominent competitors, Webwork. The term "merger" is (deliberately)
misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache incubator,
*is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have recognized that
the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, if they themselves
recognize this, then the premise of the above question, that Struts
development did in fact stagnate, is not in dispute by anybody.
The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a
distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal attacks.
And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri Yandell did
recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who posed this
question, was engaging in personal attacks.
> All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone
> totally belly up.
This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate question,
people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one group of
people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up with mud
all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the real
mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an effective
distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and so forth.
> There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts
> user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late
> rather than being helpful like it used to be.
I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political
content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose any
more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow
technical posts that don't interest you.
The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and
others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at
which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's quite
illuminating.
> This is not helping
> struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list.
I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The topic
of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow technical
point in order to be of interest to Struts users.
Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow
technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a
few are.
What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a lot
of people who don't quite understand what open source software is about.
I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but they have
a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders who write this
stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go pick it up and
use it.
The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the
developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give
feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as well.
There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who initiate
the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody should be
listening to mere users.
I think these kinds of attitudes have been a factor that led to the
stagnation.
> I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it
> swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end.
>
> If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just
> un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go.
Bart, I have just checked one thing, I was curious about it. You have
written a total of 8 messages on this list. 2 of the 8 messages have
been dedicated to decrying the existence of this discussion.
Of the remaining 6 posts, I don't see you helping anybody out. The one
exception *might* be this post.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/121858
But that is not exactly an extensive record of extending yourself to
help anybody.
But basically, aside from that one and the two other posts decrying this
thread, you simply ask some narrow technical question when you need some
help and some good samaritan helps you. Well, in short, Bart, you seem
to be one of the many people who takes and gives nothing back. That's
normal, that's most people in this open source world.
However, to be such a person and then be "threatening" to unsubscribe is
rather silly, I think.
Anyway, since you asked what the question was, I told you. Do you have
an opinion? If you have one, you certainly have every right to express it.
Why did Struts development stagnate?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Enough is enough. This is going no where usefull, just into the land of
> spam and trolling.
>
> Bart.
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
>> Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching. Why don't YOU
>> answer
>> the question, then, Bart? It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be
>> arrogant at the same time.
>>
>> On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Larry Meadors wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>>>
>>>> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>>>> to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>>>> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>>>> say this after a personal attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of moral equivalence out of this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...then follow it with another...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral
>>>>> relativism
>>>>> and other sophistry in college.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...and another.
>>>>
>>>> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from
>>>> bizzarro
>>>>
>>>
>>> world.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>>>>
>>>> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>>>> something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>>>> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>>>> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>>>> training on the Next Big Thing.
>>>>
>>>> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>>>> about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>>> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>>> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>>>
>>>> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> *round of applause for this man*
>>>
>>> Well said!
>>>
>>> Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
>>> it out, fix it and release it as your own
>>> GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
>>> fix it then we will all love
>>> you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.
>>>
>>> If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ....................... and
>>> talk more but you are not prepared to actually
>>> do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
>>> where you are not cluttering
>>> up all our mailboxes.
>>>
>>> I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
>>> enough. Either shut up and do something
>>> or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
>>> this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
>>> alone in that.
>>>
>>> Bart.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>
>>
>>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie>.
What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?
All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone
totally belly up. There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts
user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late
rather than being helpful like it used to be. This is not helping
struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list.
I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it
swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end.
If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just
un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go.
Enough is enough. This is going no where usefull, just into the land of
spam and trolling.
Bart.
Dakota Jack wrote:
>Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching. Why don't YOU answer
>the question, then, Bart? It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be
>arrogant at the same time.
>
>On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>
>
>>Larry Meadors wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>>
>>>On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>>>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>>>debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>>>say this after a personal attack.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
>>>>of moral equivalence out of this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>...then follow it with another...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
>>>>and other sophistry in college.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>...and another.
>>>
>>>This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
>>>
>>>
>>world.
>>
>>
>>>I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>>>
>>>If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>>>something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>>>ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>>>you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>>>training on the Next Big Thing.
>>>
>>>If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>>>about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>>smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>>can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>>
>>>But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>*round of applause for this man*
>>
>>Well said!
>>
>>Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
>>it out, fix it and release it as your own
>>GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
>>fix it then we will all love
>>you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.
>>
>>If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ....................... and
>>talk more but you are not prepared to actually
>>do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
>>where you are not cluttering
>>up all our mailboxes.
>>
>>I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
>>enough. Either shut up and do something
>>or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
>>this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
>>alone in that.
>>
>>Bart.
>>
>>
>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>~Dakota Jack~
>
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching. Why don't YOU answer
the question, then, Bart? It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be
arrogant at the same time.
On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>
> Larry Meadors wrote:
>
> >LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
> >
> >On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> >>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
> >debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
> >say this after a personal attack.
> >
> >
> >
> >>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
> >>of moral equivalence out of this.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >...then follow it with another...
> >
> >
> >
> >>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
> >>and other sophistry in college.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >...and another.
> >
> >This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
> world.
> >
> >I see two courses of action for you Jon:
> >
> >If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
> >something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
> >ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
> >you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
> >training on the Next Big Thing.
> >
> >If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
> >about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
> >smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
> >can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
> >
> >But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
> >
> >Larry
> >
> >
> *round of applause for this man*
>
> Well said!
>
> Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
> it out, fix it and release it as your own
> GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
> fix it then we will all love
> you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.
>
> If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ....................... and
> talk more but you are not prepared to actually
> do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
> where you are not cluttering
> up all our mailboxes.
>
> I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
> enough. Either shut up and do something
> or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
> this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
> alone in that.
>
> Bart.
>
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Bart Busschots <ba...@cs.nuim.ie>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
>LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>
>On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>
>>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>
>>
>
>OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>say this after a personal attack.
>
>
>
>>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
>>of moral equivalence out of this.
>>
>>
>
>...then follow it with another...
>
>
>
>>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
>>and other sophistry in college.
>>
>>
>
>...and another.
>
>This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.
>
>I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>
>If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>training on the Next Big Thing.
>
>If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>
>But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>
>Larry
>
>
*round of applause for this man*
Well said!
Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
it out, fix it and release it as your own
GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
fix it then we will all love
you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.
If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ....................... and
talk more but you are not prepared to actually
do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
where you are not cluttering
up all our mailboxes.
I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
enough. Either shut up and do something
or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
alone in that.
Bart.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
> to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
say this after a personal attack.
> And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
> of moral equivalence out of this.
...then follow it with another...
> Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
> and other sophistry in college.
...and another.
This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.
I see two courses of action for you Jon:
If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
training on the Next Big Thing.
If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
Larry
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Paul Benedict wrote:
> Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate
> what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this
> isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof.
> But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is
> no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence
> I'd rather avoid too.
Well, of course. Who wouldn't want to avoid this?
What you're saying, Paul, seems incredibly unworthy. You are putting
blame for this on me, the victim, because I should have known well
enough to censor myself, and not express certain legitimate political
opinions. That, presumably, would be the way to avoid having people
start with the character assasination tactics.
Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
of moral equivalence out of this.
Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
and other sophistry in college.
´
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
-- Paul
>
> --- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>
>>Larry Meadors wrote:
>>
>>Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
>>
>>I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
>>identity spoofing.
>>
>>Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
>>systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
>>to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
>>
>>Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
>>days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
>>mean, this is just too much.
>>
>>You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
>>my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
>>that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
>>
>>This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
>>developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
>>project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
>>than do your own work.
>>
>>This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
>>that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
>>http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
>>of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
>>
>>So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
>>sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
>>get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
>>
>>
>>>I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
>>>
>>>I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
>>>lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
>>>ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
>>>take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
>>>Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is
>>
>>WebWork.
>>
>>>I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
>>>but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
>>>did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
>>>wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
>>>FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
>>>All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
>>>
>>>Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
>>>Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Jonathan
>>>
>>>Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at
>>
>>1¢/min.
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Brandon Goodin wrote:
> > I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
> > good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
>
> You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.
Hahaha, thanks again Jon. I FEEL the love. :-D
>
> > Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
> >
> > On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
> > harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
> > no harm was intended.
>
> Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
> Did you think it was funny?
I thought the signature was HILARIOUS! C'mon - "Master of Freemarker
and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia." <-- that is good stuff!
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Larry Meadors
--
Some dude working at home in his sweat pants
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dion Gillard <di...@gmail.com>.
Does WebWork2/SAF2 *require* Java5?
I know Stripes does, but it's not obvious anywhere on the webwork home page
about it's JDK/JRE requirements. It does say it fully supports Java5
annotations, but that doesn't preclude support for older JDKs.
On 3/29/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
> > code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
>
> Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
> Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
> preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
> this ;-)
>
> I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
> Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
> attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
> improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good
> code"?
>
> Michael.
>
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--
http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Mahaul Jive Velcro,
You are not even close to anything that was actually discussed. If you are
careful hanging around these straw men you are going to get one of those
itches the toadies on this list talk about scratching. Why don't you just
answer the question? Do you have an answer? Why go down this route? You
cannot blame people for getting a little peeoed at people who rant at a
legitimate question being "wildly" irrlevant (Craig) which encourages this
sort of drivel and nothing is done by the Struts leaders to encourage an
honest discussion of the failure of Struts. Why not? Would it be a bad
thing to find out what needs to be changed, other than the code?
On 3/28/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
> > code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
>
> Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
> Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
> preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
> this ;-)
>
> I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
> Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
> attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
> improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good
> code"?
>
> Michael.
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Are the insiders the ones that coded Struts out the door or the ones that
are bringing new code to the table? If you meant the ones that coded Struts
out the door then if they refuse to do anything about lessons learned, I
would not listen to them. I would listen to the outsiders who told them
they were headed down a bad path. Do not think I think Don Brown does bad
work. I think he is probably by far the most talented committer. He is
almost as good as the outsiders. ;-)
On 3/30/06, Hubert Rabago <hr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Al,
>
> Not everyone who posts on the lists are insiders.
>
> If you want some insider info, go to the actual people doing the work,
> like Don Brown.
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=114369603519450&w=2
>
> Hubert
>
> On 3/30/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the
> > > "describing" that you are referring to.
> >
> > I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have
> > no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home.
> >
> > When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork
> > was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in
> > the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created
> > that was going to be, essentially, WebWork.
> >
> > The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be
> > re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes,
> > mothballed.
> >
> > Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it.
> >
> > Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution
> > not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me.
> >
> > What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its
> > value as a brand, even though the software is completely different.
> >
> > If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the
> > Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much
> > better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of
> > the Struts project with someone else.
> >
> > Names that confuse are not very useful.
> >
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 7:09 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>Joe Germuska wrote:
>>At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>
>>>It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it,
>>>the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts
>>>people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as
>>>to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it...
>>
>>
>>Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which
>>assumes that your motivations are theirs.
>>
>>Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as
>>cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.
>
>LOL.
>
>Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this
>position because your team lost the technical competition?
Some might; some might not. Whether or not they said it wouldn't
mean it was correct.
>Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it
>wasn't *really* a competition.
No. You would expect this. I would not.
>So your assertion that "it hasn't hurt anyone" is quite debatable.
>By leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF
>to promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the
>oxygen of an innovative project that really was doing the real work
>of pushing forward the state of the art.
See, I am not doing any of these things. I'm just a person who has a
job to do, and I choose to work with others to help me get this job
done. Everything else you have written is your own window dressing
on the situation.
>But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't
>ego-driven, surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding
>yourself if you think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None
>of these people, as far as I can see, make the slightest attempt
>even to hide it.
Frankly, I don't care what their motivations are.
>But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't
>believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct
>drivel really. Get real.
I just thought I should point out that for all of your self-assured
declarations about how the world works, you are not necessarily
right. You can try to speak for "most people", but you don't speak
for me.
Really,
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com
"You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new."
-- Robert Moog
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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Joe Germuska wrote:
> At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the
>> two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people
>> should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a
>> tooth pulled. So if they say it...
>
>
> Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which
> assumes that your motivations are theirs.
>
> Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as
> cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.
LOL.
Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this
position because your team lost the technical competition?
Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it
wasn't *really* a competition. But the fact remains that projects in the
same space are competing to offer the most compelling solutions in their
application space. It should be a friendly, good-natured rivalry, yes.
But the logic and structure of this is one of competition.
It is a marketplace (more of ideas than money and so on) but a market of
sorts nonetheless and a market system is something with a logic and
structure of competition.
When Patrick and Jason wrote stuff like "Struts really sucks" and so on,
there was a clear sense that this was a competitive situation and they
were kind of throwing down the gauntlet.
>
> I think Niall's answer to the question "why did Struts development
> stagnate" is pretty much what I would say. I'm not doing this for
> bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare
> time. I contribute when I can. If it helps anyone, that's great. As
> far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone.
Well, in this case, there is the additional problem that Struts and
Webwork, while competing, as I say, were not competing on an even
playing field. This is why the Webwork people, despite having a much
better product, have far fewer users.
By bringing in Webwork and abandoning the existing Struts codebase, you
are accepting that all the people who are currently using Struts would
have been better off using Webwork. (I suggest that you not try to
attack this point, because it looks unassailable.)
So your assertion that "it hasn't hurt anyone" is quite debatable. By
leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF to
promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the oxygen of
an innovative project that really was doing the real work of pushing
forward the state of the art.
>
> Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. As
> far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to carry
> on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is another group
> of developers whose motivations are not what you personally might guess
> they are.
Well, they've made a Faustian sort of deal in order to get more
publicity for their work.
But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't ego-driven,
surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding yourself if you
think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None of these people, as
far as I can see, make the slightest attempt even to hide it.
Of course, when the ego-driven people are forced to admit that their
work was inferior, then sure, they can then say that this isn't really a
competition, and they don't mind because they don't have egos and so on.
But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't
believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct drivel
really. Get real.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Joe
>
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Re: [OT] Re: How to restrict number of chocies in multiple html:select
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Adam Lipscombe wrote:
>
>> OK I could validate the number selected in the actionform or in javascript
>> but I would really like to tell the combo box to only allow N selections.
>>
>>
> AFAIK this is completely browser-controlled as it's a standard HTML
> select tag. You would need to use JavaScript.
>
Whoops, meant to add that you could validate server-side by looking at
the length of the array and writing a custom validator (one may already
exist for this; I don't recall).
But I don't believe that HTML supports a "max number of selections"
attribute.
Dave
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[OT] Re: How to restrict number of chocies in multiple html:select
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Adam Lipscombe wrote:
> With an <html:select .. multiple="true"> is it possible to restrict the
> number of selections that can be made?
> To say 2 or 3?
>
> OK I could validate the number selected in the actionform or in javascript
> but I would really like to tell the combo box to only allow N selections.
>
AFAIK this is completely browser-controlled as it's a standard HTML
select tag. You would need to use JavaScript.
Dave
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How to restrict number of chocies in multiple html:select
Posted by Adam Lipscombe <ad...@expensys.com>.
Folks,
With an <html:select .. multiple="true"> is it possible to restrict the
number of selections that can be made?
To say 2 or 3?
OK I could validate the number selected in the actionform or in javascript
but I would really like to tell the combo box to only allow N selections.
TIA -Adam
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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
The hullabaloo, Larry, is about the stability of the platform with a bunch
of committers who don't appear to be up to the job and who are not willing
to look at what went wrong. The stability of a platform like Struts is a
big deal. This is a time to decide to go with or to get off the Struts
wagon. How the committers respond has a lot to do with this.
On 3/29/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
> > little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.
> >
> > Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
> > WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
> > It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.
>
> Seriously, this seems like a win-win.
>
> Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a
> good brand.
>
> The users get the best of both worlds.
>
> I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really...
>
> Larry
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Hubert Rabago <hr...@gmail.com>.
Al,
Not everyone who posts on the lists are insiders.
If you want some insider info, go to the actual people doing the work,
like Don Brown.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=114369603519450&w=2
Hubert
On 3/30/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the
> > "describing" that you are referring to.
>
> I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have
> no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home.
>
> When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork
> was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in
> the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created
> that was going to be, essentially, WebWork.
>
> The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be
> re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes,
> mothballed.
>
> Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it.
>
> Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution
> not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me.
>
> What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its
> value as a brand, even though the software is completely different.
>
> If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the
> Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much
> better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of
> the Struts project with someone else.
>
> Names that confuse are not very useful.
>
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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the
> "describing" that you are referring to.
I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have
no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home.
When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork
was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in
the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created
that was going to be, essentially, WebWork.
The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be
re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes,
mothballed.
Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it.
Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution
not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me.
What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its
value as a brand, even though the software is completely different.
If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the
Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much
better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of
the Struts project with someone else.
Names that confuse are not very useful.
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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska <Jo...@germuska.com> wrote:
>
> > Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process.
>
> The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover
> than a merger.
You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the
"describing" that you are referring to.
Craig
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
> little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.
>
> Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
> WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
> It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.
Seriously, this seems like a win-win.
Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a
good brand.
The users get the best of both worlds.
I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really...
Larry
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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska <Jo...@germuska.com> wrote:
> Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process.
The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover
than a merger.
> As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to
> carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is
> another group of developers whose motivations are not what you
> personally might guess they are.
That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.
Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.
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Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the
>two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people
>should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a
>tooth pulled. So if they say it...
Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which
assumes that your motivations are theirs.
Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as
cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.
I think Niall's answer to the question "why did Struts development
stagnate" is pretty much what I would say. I'm not doing this for
bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare
time. I contribute when I can. If it helps anyone, that's great.
As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone.
Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process.
As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to
carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is
another group of developers whose motivations are not what you
personally might guess they are.
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com
"You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new."
-- Robert Moog
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
>>code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
>
>
> Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
> Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
> preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
> this ;-)
Well, Michael, there's a saying that goes something like this:
"When the pope tells you there's a God, he's just doing his job. When he
comes out and says there is no God, then maybe he's on to something."
If Jason and Patrick and other Webwork people sing the praises of
Webwork, they are also just "doing their job". It's hardly surprising.
Also, if the Struts people say Struts is great and work on Struts, that
is hardly worthy of much comment either.
However, when the Struts developers say they don't want to work on the
Struts codebase any more and just bring in the Webwork codebase and work
on that, well... this, unlike the previous cases, is really a rather
interesting invent, maybe not quite so much as the pope declaring
himself an atheist. But I can say that when I heard about the
Struts/Webwork thing it came as a great surprise to me.
It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two
things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should
be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth
pulled. So if they say it...
But also, it leads to the question of why Struts was not able to stay
competitive with Webwork. Struts development clearly did stagnate. There
is no getting around this.
I got into this whole discussion originally by making certain comments
about open-source project management practices. I was actually then
shocked by the rather know-it-all tone of people like Craig McClanahan
and Ted Husted. Both simply responded to these questions as in: "Here at
ASF, we do it like this". I wrote a moderately sharp response, first to
Craig here:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/123265
It has been suggested that this was an example of me being extremely
rude to Craig. I have reread the message and I don't think so. While it
may cause people discomfort, it is perfectly legitimate and reasonable
to suggest that people who themselves failed to keep their project
up-to-date with the state of the art, should take a much more humble
approach to these questions. That was the overall thrust of the message
I have link above. The above-linked message was a reasoned reply that
was not the kind of rabid froth-at-the-mouth personal attack like I got
subjected to subsequently.
> I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
> Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
> attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
> improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good
> code"?
Well, as I said, that the Struts developers decline to work on their
codebase and bring in Webwork has some inescapable implications about
the relative quality of those 2 things. It has been accepted basically
that Webwork is better. However, those aren't the only two such
projects. There are actually lots of web application frameworks. Some of
them could well be better than Webwork. Have you evaluated Stripes yourself?
Oh, and by the way, Michael, in your opinion, why did Struts development
stagnate?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Michael.
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
> code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
this ;-)
I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good
code"?
Michael.
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com>.
Hey Jonathan, relax a bit. Come chill out with us tomorrow in
#FunkyCodeMonkey on irc.darkmyst.org You can complain about struts in real
time and talk up MagicMarker or whatever:) Anyone else is welcome to join as
well. It's a good time and makes the day a bit more bearable when your
stressed at work.
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Brandon Goodin wrote:
> > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Brandon Goodin wrote:
> >>
> >>>Okay,
> >>>
> >>>I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
> >>>inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
> >>>like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
> >>>you.
> >>
> >>I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
> >>not so good at playing net detective. Touché.
> >
> >
> > Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it
> > many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does
> > that make me a creep? ;-)
>
> No. Probably everybody does it nowadays. Posting 4-day-old private
> messages to a public list in an attempt to re-ignite a flame war would
> make you a creep, though. But that was somebody else who did that.
>
> >
> >
> >>>I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
> >>>good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
> >>
> >>You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.
> >
> >
> > Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :)
> >
> >
> >>>Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
> >>>
> >>>On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
> >>>harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
> >>>no harm was intended.
> >>
> >>Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
> >>Did you think it was funny?
> >
> >
> > Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D
>
> Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
> code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Rick
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Brandon Goodin wrote:
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Brandon Goodin wrote:
>>
>>>Okay,
>>>
>>>I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
>>>inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
>>>like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
>>>you.
>>
>>I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
>>not so good at playing net detective. Touché.
>
>
> Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it
> many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does
> that make me a creep? ;-)
No. Probably everybody does it nowadays. Posting 4-day-old private
messages to a public list in an attempt to re-ignite a flame war would
make you a creep, though. But that was somebody else who did that.
>
>
>>>I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
>>>good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
>>
>>You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.
>
>
> Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :)
>
>
>>>Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
>>>
>>>On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
>>>harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
>>>no harm was intended.
>>
>>Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
>>Did you think it was funny?
>
>
> Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D
Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
code. The Struts developers don't even think that.
>
>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Brandon Goodin <br...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Brandon Goodin wrote:
> > Okay,
> >
> > I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
> > inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
> > like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
> > you.
>
> I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
> not so good at playing net detective. Touché.
Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it
many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does
that make me a creep? ;-)
>
> > I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
> > good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
>
> You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.
Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :)
> > Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
> >
> > On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
> > harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
> > no harm was intended.
>
> Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
> Did you think it was funny?
Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very
> funny. Did you think it was funny?
BANG .... thump ...
that was the sound of the Court Jester shooting himself ...
Dead Moose
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Brandon Goodin wrote:
> Okay,
>
> I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
> inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
> like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
> you.
I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
not so good at playing net detective. Touché.
> I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
> good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.
> Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
>
> On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
> harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
> no harm was intended.
Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
Did you think it was funny?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Brandon Goodin <br...@gmail.com>.
Okay,
I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
you. I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
no harm was intended.
Cheers,
Brandon
P.S. It wasn't me either. ;)
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Larry Meadors wrote:
>
> Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
>
> I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
> identity spoofing.
>
> Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
> systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
> to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
>
> Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
> days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
> mean, this is just too much.
>
> You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
> my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
> that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
>
> This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
> developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
> project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
> than do your own work.
>
> This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
> that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
> http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
> of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
>
> So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
> sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
> get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
>
> > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
> >
> > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
> > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
> > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
> >
> > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
> > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
> > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
> > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> >
> > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
Ouch.
On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry
> speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous.
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Rick Reumann <ri...@gmail.com>.
Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry
speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Larry Meadors wrote:
> > Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
> > barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are
> > *nowhere* in that original email.
>
> Okay, I retract that. The google search "Larry Measors struts" the first
> hit is www.tampajug.org
>
>
> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&hs=5LQ&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22Larry+Meadors%22+struts&spell=1
>
> A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals:
>
> 6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194]
>
> So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic
> "butt-monkey" post.
>
> It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
> but you didn't do this. :-)
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> >
> > BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
> > having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Larry Meadors wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
> >>
> >>I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
> >>identity spoofing.
> >>
> >>Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
> >>systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
> >>to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
> >>
> >>Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
> >>days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
> >>mean, this is just too much.
> >>
> >>You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
> >>my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
> >>that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
> >>
> >>This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
> >>developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
> >>project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
> >>than do your own work.
> >>
> >>This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
> >>
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
> >>that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
> >>http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
> >>of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
> >>
> >>So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
> >>sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
> >>get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
> recently.
> >>>
> >>>I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> >>>lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
> girls
> >>>ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
> and
> >>>take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> >>>Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
> its awesomness is WebWork.
> >>>
> >>>I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly
> awesome,
> >>>but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
> all
> >>>did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
> really
> >>>wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> >>>FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
> see.
> >>>All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> >>>
> >>>Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> >>>Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Jonathan
> >>>
> >>>Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------
> >>>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1¢/min.
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Rick
Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Larry Meadors wrote:
> So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic "butt-monkey" post.
>
> It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
> but you didn't do this. :-)
Idiotic?! That was *FUNNY*...
Deplorable!? What?! I was just trying to fit in!
I optimistically thought Friday had come early...
Tomorrow is Tuesday? Dang..
:-D
Larry
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
> barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are
> *nowhere* in that original email.
Okay, I retract that. The google search "Larry Measors struts" the first
hit is www.tampajug.org
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&hs=5LQ&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22Larry+Meadors%22+struts&spell=1
A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals:
6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194]
So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic
"butt-monkey" post.
It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
but you didn't do this. :-)
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
> having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.
>
> Larry
>
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Larry Meadors wrote:
>>
>>Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
>>
>>I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
>>identity spoofing.
>>
>>Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
>>systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
>>to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
>>
>>Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
>>days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
>>mean, this is just too much.
>>
>>You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
>>my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
>>that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
>>
>>This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
>>developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
>>project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
>>than do your own work.
>>
>>This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
>>that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
>>http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
>>of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
>>
>>So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
>>sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
>>get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
>>
>>
>>>I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
>>>
>>>I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
>>>lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
>>>ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
>>>take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
>>>Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
>>>
>>>I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
>>>but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
>>>did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
>>>wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
>>>FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
>>>All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
>>>
>>>Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
>>>Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Jonathan
>>>
>>>Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are
*nowhere* in that original email.
BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.
Larry
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Larry Meadors wrote:
>
> Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
>
> I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
> identity spoofing.
>
> Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
> systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
> to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
>
> Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
> days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
> mean, this is just too much.
>
> You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
> my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
> that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
>
> This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
> developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
> project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
> than do your own work.
>
> This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
> that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
> http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
> of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
>
> So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
> sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
> get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
>
> > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
> >
> > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
> > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
> > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
> >
> > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
> > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
> > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
> > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> >
> > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate
what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this
isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof.
But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is
no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence
I'd rather avoid too. -- Paul
--- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Larry Meadors wrote:
>
> Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
>
> I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
> identity spoofing.
>
> Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
> systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
> to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
>
> Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
> days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
> mean, this is just too much.
>
> You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
> my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
> that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
>
> This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
> developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
> project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
> than do your own work.
>
> This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
> that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
> http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
> of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
>
> So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
> sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
> get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
>
> > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
> >
> > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
> > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
> > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is
> WebWork.
> >
> > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
> > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
> > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
> > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
> >
> > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at
> 1¢/min.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: I Apologize
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
identity spoofing.
Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
mean, this is just too much.
You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
than do your own work.
This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
> I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
>
> I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
> lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
> ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
> take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
> Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.
>
> I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
> but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
> did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
> wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
> FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
> All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
>
> Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and
> Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan
>
> Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
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