You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@hc.apache.org by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> on 2007/04/05 14:21:11 UTC
HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Mike, Odi, Roland and all
It appears we have some really tough decisions forced upon us. It looks
quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
future, which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
die. We all know in its present form the project is unlikely to be
viable as a TLP. So, we basically have just a few options, all seem
ugly.
(1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
as a TLP.
(2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
engineering to hit us.
(3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
TLP, not Jakarta.
(4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
(5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
Evil Comrade Oleg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 2007-04-06 at 09:08 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>
> > (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> > as a TLP.
> >
> > (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> > engineering to hit us.
> >
> > (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> > and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> > TLP, not Jakarta.
> >
> > (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> > away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
> >
> > (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
>
> Maybe start some informal talks about 3 while intensely pursuing 4?
> The Synapse folks were seriously considering to roll their own HTTP
> implementation before choosing use, so I feel that webservices might
> be a good home if they are comfortable with it. But every kind of move
> means more work that does not benefit the code base, that's why I
> would try to delay it as long as possible.
>
> cheers,
> Roland
>
Roland, Asankha and all,
I think we are in full agreement here. My preference is option 4
followed by option 3. If the decision to disband Jakarta is officially
announced, the very same moment we should consider approaching Synapse
folks with a formal request to sponsor our move to the Web Services TLP.
I would very much rather prefer to spend all this time and efforts
hacking code, though.
Until then, it is all business as usual. I'll start a thread on planning
for ALPHA5 shortly.
Oleg
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
If you guys decide you would like to join the WS community, we'd be
very happy to have you! In fact, I'd even be willing to buy you some
beers if that helps you decide :)
Paul
On 4/6/07, Asankha C. Perera <as...@wso2.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Oleg, Roland
>
> Roland Weber wrote:
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
>
>
>
> (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> as a TLP.
>
> (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> engineering to hit us.
>
> (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> TLP, not Jakarta.
>
> (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
>
> (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
>
> Maybe start some informal talks about 3 while intensely pursuing 4?
> The Synapse folks were seriously considering to roll their own HTTP
> implementation before choosing use, so I feel that webservices might
> be a good home if they are comfortable with it. But every kind of move
> means more work that does not benefit the code base, that's why I
> would try to delay it as long as possible.
>
> If joining the Web services project could help and ensure the continued
> existence and growth of HttpComponents, I would be happy to do anything I
> can to help.
>
> asankha
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org For
> additional commands, e-mail:
> httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> as a TLP.
>
> (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> engineering to hit us.
>
> (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> TLP, not Jakarta.
>
> (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
>
> (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
Maybe start some informal talks about 3 while intensely pursuing 4?
The Synapse folks were seriously considering to roll their own HTTP
implementation before choosing use, so I feel that webservices might
be a good home if they are comfortable with it. But every kind of move
means more work that does not benefit the code base, that's why I
would try to delay it as long as possible.
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:35 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 12:57 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > > On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does
> > > > look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.
> > >
> > > Another alternative that Justin Erenkrantz just suggested (he's in
> > > favour of Http going TLP), is for Serf to join HttpComponents at TLP.
> > > Serf's an external project with 5 committers
> > > (http://code.google.com/p/serf/) that originally came to the ASF in
> > > the failed commons.apache.org and then left again.
> > >
> >
> > This sounds quite interesting and may actually work, at least from the
> > project governance perspective. At the same time C folks and Java folks
> > rarely mix together and rarely make a good team. Anyways, it is an
> > option worth exploring.
>
> There are some definite prior cases where it seems to be working -
> Axis has both Java and C implementations (in both 1 and 2 versions I
> think), and ActiveMQ has Java and C implementations. So that's
> hopeful.
>
> > BTW, what should happen to NoRobots?
>
> Dunno - might just be too simple a piece of code to be worth anything.
>
> Hen
>
Henri and all
To sum up all ideas expressed so far there appears to be a fairly decent
plan of actions
(1) Just sit tight, keep it cool and wait for the dust to settle
following Commons' move to TLP.
(2) Continue talking to Synapse folks regarding possible move under the
umbrella of the Web Services TLP.
(3) Pursue the idea of HttpComponents TLP as a joint project with Serf.
Ask Synapse folks if any of them would be interested to be on
HttpComponents PMC to help us with the transition.
(4) Keep on hacking code all this time
How does this sound?
Oleg
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 12:57 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does
> > > look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.
> >
> > Another alternative that Justin Erenkrantz just suggested (he's in
> > favour of Http going TLP), is for Serf to join HttpComponents at TLP.
> > Serf's an external project with 5 committers
> > (http://code.google.com/p/serf/) that originally came to the ASF in
> > the failed commons.apache.org and then left again.
> >
>
> This sounds quite interesting and may actually work, at least from the
> project governance perspective. At the same time C folks and Java folks
> rarely mix together and rarely make a good team. Anyways, it is an
> option worth exploring.
There are some definite prior cases where it seems to be working -
Axis has both Java and C implementations (in both 1 and 2 versions I
think), and ActiveMQ has Java and C implementations. So that's
hopeful.
> BTW, what should happen to NoRobots?
Dunno - might just be too simple a piece of code to be worth anything.
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 12:57 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does
> > look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.
>
> Another alternative that Justin Erenkrantz just suggested (he's in
> favour of Http going TLP), is for Serf to join HttpComponents at TLP.
> Serf's an external project with 5 committers
> (http://code.google.com/p/serf/) that originally came to the ASF in
> the failed commons.apache.org and then left again.
>
This sounds quite interesting and may actually work, at least from the
project governance perspective. At the same time C forks and Java folks
rarely mix together and rarely make a good team. Anyways, it is an
option worth exploring.
BTW, what should happen to NoRobots?
Oleg
> > I personally just want to be left alone so I could concentrate on what I
> > came to ASF for: hacking code that other people find useful.
>
> Yeah, increasingly I'm about having fun (Quartz + JIRA plugins, sadly
> neither at the ASF), than in hassling people.
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 4/11/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does
> look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.
Another alternative that Justin Erenkrantz just suggested (he's in
favour of Http going TLP), is for Serf to join HttpComponents at TLP.
Serf's an external project with 5 committers
(http://code.google.com/p/serf/) that originally came to the ASF in
the failed commons.apache.org and then left again.
> I personally just want to be left alone so I could concentrate on what I
> came to ASF for: hacking code that other people find useful.
Yeah, increasingly I'm about having fun (Quartz + JIRA plugins, sadly
neither at the ASF), than in hassling people.
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 4/7/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:31 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
>> > Hi Oleg, all,
>> >
>> > > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very
>> near
>> > > future
>> >
>> > How would that affect Commons HttpClient 3.x? I guess they'll
>> > leave that one in Jakarta, right?
>> >
>> > > which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
>> > > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP
>> or to
>> > > die.
>> >
>> > If we're forced out of Jakarta, how would that affect Commons
>> HttpClient?
>> > I guess we'd leave that one in Jakarta to die, right?
>> >
>> > morbid cheers,
>> > Roland
>> >
>>
>> Hi Roland,
>>
>> I have no idea what these guys are thinking. Anyways, I think we should
>> stick to the original plan: we support Commons HttpClient 3.x line until
>> Jakarta HttpClient (scuzme I meant to say Apache HttpClient) goes RC1,
>> then Commons HttpClient goes into dormancy.
>>
>> We should ask this question to Henri, though
>
> Sobering thread. Social engineering etc.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28political_science%29
> makes interesting reading, and reading that there's no way I can argue
> that this is not social engineering. Jakarta has been told for 6 years
> that it must behave as a single PMC, a piece of social engineering
> that does not scope beyond a single community. We were never a single
> community, and so we remain a broken remnant which (imo) should have
> become its own foundation (but hindsight is wonderful).
>
> I don't like such things - broken things that everyone steps around
> and ignores, or complain about in private. I currently can see two
> ways to 'fix' Jakarta. The first is to disband it, the second is to
> force it into one community (merge dev lists, clean up the PMC so it
> reflects the communities who are still left, flatten all components to
> one level).
>
> The latter is a piece of social engineering that would give anyone who
> tries to pull it off a stomach ulcer. The remaining subcommunities in
> Jakarta do not want to be merged into other communities, and thus will
> always vote for the broken system - because to the subcommunities of
> Jakarta it is not a broken system, it is how they want to be.
>
> The former is brutal and simple. Continue the migration out of
> Jakarta, which in my opinion Commons having hung around for so long
> has prevented from reaching its obvious day when the last half dozen
> active committers are having to shoulder an undesirable maintenance
> load.
>
> --
>
> Moving to Web Services seems odd to me, though I guess they're the
> last remaining umbrella out there (XML is at the 'there's no one left
> to turn the light out' stage) so that would be an advantage.
> Personally I don't see why not on the TLP bit. I don't see why there
> would be any social engineering needed in a Commons TLP - but I'm sure
> I'll come up with something.
>
> Why not just move Commons HttpClient into HttpComponents? And then to
> wherever? It stopped being a part of Commons when the mailing lists
> were split (again hindsight).
>
Hi Henri,
I did not mean to use the term Social engineering as *derogatory*. It is
perfectly valid and appropriate to try to fix things, especially if they
are perceived as seriously broken, and to try to steer the community in
a particular direction. But as any radical reforms, they usually come at
a cost. I understand some people think of a flatter project hierarchy as
more efficient and better governable. The trouble with HttpClient (and
later with HttpComponents) was about a very simple fact: it was too big
for Commons, but not big enough to stand on its own as a top level
Apache project. This way, being a sub-community within a large community
with similar goals was perfectly adequate for projects like
HttpComponents. Since this is no longer seems possible you are
effectively asking us to choose between an electric chair and a lethal
injection. So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does
look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.
I personally just want to be left alone so I could concentrate on what I
came to ASF for: hacking code that other people find useful.
<http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/scxml/>
Oleg
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
>
> Moving to Web Services seems odd to me, though I guess they're the
> last remaining umbrella out there (XML is at the 'there's no one left
> to turn the light out' stage) so that would be an advantage.
> Personally I don't see why not on the TLP bit. I don't see why there
> would be any social engineering needed in a Commons TLP - but I'm sure
> I'll come up with something.
Don't forget about db.apache.org...
Mvgr,
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Henri,
thanks for the explanation.
> Moving to Web Services seems odd to me, though I guess they're the
> last remaining umbrella out there (XML is at the 'there's no one left
> to turn the light out' stage) so that would be an advantage.
> Personally I don't see why not on the TLP bit.
Because Oleg is basically doing all the work on his own. There are
enough PMC around to pass votes, but that's it. If HttpComponents
goes TLP and Oleg has to write board reports in addition to all the
coding, the project will suffer. As it will suffer from writing a
proposal to move, but I guess that can't be helped.
Web Services, or rather Synapse, are the first Apache users of the
4.0 codebase (I am aware of). They are very active, and have an
interest in keeping at least the HttpCore part going.
We don't have any newcomers aspiring to become committers at the
moment. We hope that will change with the new codebase, but there
is no telling how long it will take. Hanging around with an active
user base is our best chance to keep the project going long enough.
> Why not just move Commons HttpClient into HttpComponents?
I expect that to happen.
> And then to wherever?
The 3.x codebase has a bad design. We'd like it to go away and
fade into oblivion when the 4.0 codebase has reached the point
to replace it. That's why I suggested to leave it behind in a
dying Jakarta :-) Of course I was merely being sarcastic. We
know it won't go away for years, and HttpComponents will have
to support the old codebase for a long time to come. Somebody
would veto that kind of trick anyway.
> It stopped being a part of Commons when the mailing lists
> were split (again hindsight).
That was before I got here. And it is the reason why moving
back to Commons is not the first choice.
cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 4/7/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:31 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
> > Hi Oleg, all,
> >
> > > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> > > future
> >
> > How would that affect Commons HttpClient 3.x? I guess they'll
> > leave that one in Jakarta, right?
> >
> > > which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> > > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> > > die.
> >
> > If we're forced out of Jakarta, how would that affect Commons HttpClient?
> > I guess we'd leave that one in Jakarta to die, right?
> >
> > morbid cheers,
> > Roland
> >
>
> Hi Roland,
>
> I have no idea what these guys are thinking. Anyways, I think we should
> stick to the original plan: we support Commons HttpClient 3.x line until
> Jakarta HttpClient (scuzme I meant to say Apache HttpClient) goes RC1,
> then Commons HttpClient goes into dormancy.
>
> We should ask this question to Henri, though
Sobering thread. Social engineering etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28political_science%29
makes interesting reading, and reading that there's no way I can argue
that this is not social engineering. Jakarta has been told for 6 years
that it must behave as a single PMC, a piece of social engineering
that does not scope beyond a single community. We were never a single
community, and so we remain a broken remnant which (imo) should have
become its own foundation (but hindsight is wonderful).
I don't like such things - broken things that everyone steps around
and ignores, or complain about in private. I currently can see two
ways to 'fix' Jakarta. The first is to disband it, the second is to
force it into one community (merge dev lists, clean up the PMC so it
reflects the communities who are still left, flatten all components to
one level).
The latter is a piece of social engineering that would give anyone who
tries to pull it off a stomach ulcer. The remaining subcommunities in
Jakarta do not want to be merged into other communities, and thus will
always vote for the broken system - because to the subcommunities of
Jakarta it is not a broken system, it is how they want to be.
The former is brutal and simple. Continue the migration out of
Jakarta, which in my opinion Commons having hung around for so long
has prevented from reaching its obvious day when the last half dozen
active committers are having to shoulder an undesirable maintenance
load.
--
Moving to Web Services seems odd to me, though I guess they're the
last remaining umbrella out there (XML is at the 'there's no one left
to turn the light out' stage) so that would be an advantage.
Personally I don't see why not on the TLP bit. I don't see why there
would be any social engineering needed in a Commons TLP - but I'm sure
I'll come up with something.
Why not just move Commons HttpClient into HttpComponents? And then to
wherever? It stopped being a part of Commons when the mailing lists
were split (again hindsight).
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:31 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
> Hi Oleg, all,
>
> > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> > future
>
> How would that affect Commons HttpClient 3.x? I guess they'll
> leave that one in Jakarta, right?
>
> > which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> > die.
>
> If we're forced out of Jakarta, how would that affect Commons HttpClient?
> I guess we'd leave that one in Jakarta to die, right?
>
> morbid cheers,
> Roland
>
Hi Roland,
I have no idea what these guys are thinking. Anyways, I think we should
stick to the original plan: we support Commons HttpClient 3.x line until
Jakarta HttpClient (scuzme I meant to say Apache HttpClient) goes RC1,
then Commons HttpClient goes into dormancy.
We should ask this question to Henri, though
Oleg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Oleg, all,
> quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> future
How would that affect Commons HttpClient 3.x? I guess they'll
leave that one in Jakarta, right?
> which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> die.
If we're forced out of Jakarta, how would that affect Commons HttpClient?
I guess we'd leave that one in Jakarta to die, right?
morbid cheers,
Roland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 13:48 +0100, sebb wrote:
> Much the same applies to JMeter, except that it would be difficult to
> see it as a Commons component, and I'm not keen on JMeter leaving ASF.
>
> There was a proposal a while back to create a Testing TLP, but I could
> not see the point of moving at the time so I did not try to make that
> happen (but equally did not veto it).
>
> Since JMeter uses Httpclient, and both projects are alive but have few
> developers, maybe there is some way we can help each other out?
>
> Sebastian
Hi Sebastian
I personally see Commons' move to TLP as a rather shortsighted and
awkward ways of forcing POI out of Jakarta and ORO and Regexp into
Commons. It reminds me too much of events I have been firsthand witness
to, and the way short term gains can easily turn into huge long term
losses. But so be it.
I can offer you a helping hand with the JMeter's move out of Jakarta
either to a TLP of its own or to Testing TLP, and probably some hacking
on HTTP related stuff or migration to Maven2. To free up some bandwidth
for this work, though, I think I should finally make good on my promises
and to discontinue any hands-on involvement in development of the
Commons HttpClient 3.x code line (barring fixing critical bugs). This
also means some one else will have to step up to assume the role of the
RM for Commons HttpClient 3.1 henceon.
Oleg
> On 05/04/07, Ortwin Glück <od...@odi.ch> wrote:
> > Oleg,
> >
> > Honestly I don't really care WHERE this project is happening. If under
> > Commons, TLP, in Webservices, on sf.net or Savannah. The important thing
> > is THAT it is going on. For me all the surrounding organizational crap
> > is more of a burden than it helps to get a project forward.
> >
> > Odi
> >
> > Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > > Mike, Odi, Roland and all
> > >
> > > It appears we have some really tough decisions forced upon us. It looks
> > > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> > > future, which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> > > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> > > die. We all know in its present form the project is unlikely to be
> > > viable as a TLP. So, we basically have just a few options, all seem
> > > ugly.
> > >
> > > (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> > > as a TLP.
> > >
> > > (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> > > engineering to hit us.
> > >
> > > (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> > > and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> > > TLP, not Jakarta.
> > >
> > > (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> > > away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
> > >
> > > (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
> > >
> > > Evil Comrade Oleg
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > [web] http://www.odi.ch/
> > [blog] http://www.odi.ch/weblog/
> > [pgp] key 0x81CF3416
> > finger print F2B1 B21F F056 D53E 5D79 A5AF 02BE 70F5 81CF 3416
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
Much the same applies to JMeter, except that it would be difficult to
see it as a Commons component, and I'm not keen on JMeter leaving ASF.
There was a proposal a while back to create a Testing TLP, but I could
not see the point of moving at the time so I did not try to make that
happen (but equally did not veto it).
Since JMeter uses Httpclient, and both projects are alive but have few
developers, maybe there is some way we can help each other out?
Sebastian
On 05/04/07, Ortwin Glück <od...@odi.ch> wrote:
> Oleg,
>
> Honestly I don't really care WHERE this project is happening. If under
> Commons, TLP, in Webservices, on sf.net or Savannah. The important thing
> is THAT it is going on. For me all the surrounding organizational crap
> is more of a burden than it helps to get a project forward.
>
> Odi
>
> Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> > Mike, Odi, Roland and all
> >
> > It appears we have some really tough decisions forced upon us. It looks
> > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> > future, which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> > die. We all know in its present form the project is unlikely to be
> > viable as a TLP. So, we basically have just a few options, all seem
> > ugly.
> >
> > (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> > as a TLP.
> >
> > (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> > engineering to hit us.
> >
> > (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> > and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> > TLP, not Jakarta.
> >
> > (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> > away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
> >
> > (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
> >
> > Evil Comrade Oleg
> >
>
>
> --
> [web] http://www.odi.ch/
> [blog] http://www.odi.ch/weblog/
> [pgp] key 0x81CF3416
> finger print F2B1 B21F F056 D53E 5D79 A5AF 02BE 70F5 81CF 3416
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Posted by Ortwin Glück <od...@odi.ch>.
Oleg,
Honestly I don't really care WHERE this project is happening. If under
Commons, TLP, in Webservices, on sf.net or Savannah. The important thing
is THAT it is going on. For me all the surrounding organizational crap
is more of a burden than it helps to get a project forward.
Odi
Oleg Kalnichevski wrote:
> Mike, Odi, Roland and all
>
> It appears we have some really tough decisions forced upon us. It looks
> quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very near
> future, which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
> of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP or to
> die. We all know in its present form the project is unlikely to be
> viable as a TLP. So, we basically have just a few options, all seem
> ugly.
>
> (1) Attempt to go TLP and risk the possibility of never becoming viable
> as a TLP.
>
> (2) Go back to Commons and wait for the next trend in the social
> engineering to hit us.
>
> (3) Seek a new home elsewhere within ASF. Curiously enough our largest
> and the most active user base within ASF appears to be the Webservices
> TLP, not Jakarta.
>
> (4) Pretend nothing is happening and hope this whole hooplah will fade
> away the same way Jakarta Silk did.
>
> (5) Pull the plug. Do something else like raising pigeons or something.
>
> Evil Comrade Oleg
>
--
[web] http://www.odi.ch/
[blog] http://www.odi.ch/weblog/
[pgp] key 0x81CF3416
finger print F2B1 B21F F056 D53E 5D79 A5AF 02BE 70F5 81CF 3416
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: httpcomponents-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org