media, media, media ?

[Samuel Arnod-Prin <sa...@smile.ch>]

This is not exactly what I want to do, but if you solve this problem,
you will solve mine ;)

Considering you don't want xsl transformation to be a function of the
http browser but in function of a parameter (that would be store in a
database ...), how is it possible to do ?? (including modification of a
cocoon class in the worst case..). In cocoon1 ? in cocoon 2 ?

If you haven't understood, suppose you want your xml vocabulary to be
transform on monday by the monday_voc.xsl, on tuesday by the
tuesday_voc.xsl.. and so on...

thank you :)
by the way, if I modify a class, can I still use cocoon freely ?

thanx

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Piroumian, Konstantin wrote:
>
> > Development of web applications is not very easy with Cocoon: many
> > developers know Java, some know XSL(T) and a very few are familar with
XSP.
>
> Well, XSP is just a mix of XSLT and Java, so you can use whatever tools
> you like for these areas. Personally, I use a regular text editor for
> XML/XSL and Netbeans for Java.

Yes, I know that. I use XML Spy myself, but I am quite familiar with XSP and
XSL, so that mixture of XML/Java/XSL (like in logicsheets) is more
comfortable for me than it would be a visual development tool. But we need
some kind of WYSIWYG tool (like visual JSP editors) for our clients: they
don't want to go deep into XSP/XSL and want to easily change either the
look-and-feel of pages or create completely new pages with some logic.

>
> > From the opposite view: JSP has a lot of tools, IDEs. I know that it's
not a
> > trivial task to implement a development tool for XSP/XSL, but how do you
> > work on large projects?
>
> I suspect that ant is the answer.

Ant can only automate the compilation, distribution archive creation and
maybe deployment, but it can't make easier the programming part.

>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung
>

Kot.

P.S. Sorry, if my english is not very comprehensive.

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Tiberiu DONDERA <ti...@hotmail.com>]

Sorry for the delay, it's just now that I have seen this thread.

I'm working in a french company (Easance - www.easance.com) that is
currently develloping exactly what you asked for (a tool to make Cocoon
programming easier, if not trivial).
Though we are past the analysis phase, every suggestion and feature request
will be taken into account and maybe implemented in the final product.

Thank you,
Tiberiu Dondera

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Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> >
> > And what about JSP/ASP development? That is Cocoon like programming:
mixture
> > of HTML and JavaScript (or VBScript).
>
> Someone still has to write the code. If you have no Java programmers and
> no ASP programmers, I don't see how a graphical tool would help you :)

As I told you before, we are now working on a framework. And we do all the
programming: XSP, XSL, Java classes, etc. But our clients - who will buy our
system - don't need to go deep into programming tasks in XSP/XSL, but they
still want to be able to customize the system for their needs and do it
easily and the best option would be a development tool for XSP, which is not
available now.

>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

"Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> 
> And what about JSP/ASP development? That is Cocoon like programming: mixture
> of HTML and JavaScript (or VBScript).

Someone still has to write the code. If you have no Java programmers and
no ASP programmers, I don't see how a graphical tool would help you :)

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Piroumian, Konstantin wrote:

> > > Yes, I think so too. But, for example, you can create HTML pages without
> > > knowing of HTML and direct editing of tags. And a development tool is a
> > > necessary thing for any development technologie. Maybe that's why Cocoon
> is
> > > not as widely used as JSP or ASP?
> >
> > Yes, because HTML is very limited and not a real programming language.
> > Java is in another league entirely.
>
> And what about JSP/ASP development? That is Cocoon like programming: mixture
> of HTML and JavaScript (or VBScript).

er, not quite - that's in some sense that's the antithesis of cocoon-like
programming. cocoon tries to make you _seperate_ your code, your content,
and your design.

- donald

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> > Yes, I think so too. But, for example, you can create HTML pages without
> > knowing of HTML and direct editing of tags. And a development tool is a
> > necessary thing for any development technologie. Maybe that's why Cocoon
is
> > not as widely used as JSP or ASP?
>
> Yes, because HTML is very limited and not a real programming language.
> Java is in another league entirely.
>

And what about JSP/ASP development? That is Cocoon like programming: mixture
of HTML and JavaScript (or VBScript).

> > > Well, I don't think there's a way to develop real-world Java apps
> > > without knowing Java. So I don't think it's outrageous to require
> > > XSP/XSL knowledge of cocoon developers :)
> > >
> > I'll try to convience our managers to stay with Cocoon, but I am not
sure
> > that I'll have success without strong arguments.
>
> Perhaps Cocoon is simply not right for your shop.

That is the reason, that I am asking this questions :)
We are trying to investigate advantages and disadvantages of Cocoon and
compare with JSP.

>Perhaps you should work in a different company ;-)

I like the company I work for, but if you have any interesting offers for me
then I will look at them :)

> Ulrich

Kot.

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

"Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think so too. But, for example, you can create HTML pages without
> knowing of HTML and direct editing of tags. And a development tool is a
> necessary thing for any development technologie. Maybe that's why Cocoon is
> not as widely used as JSP or ASP?

Yes, because HTML is very limited and not a real programming language.
Java is in another league entirely.

> > Well, I don't think there's a way to develop real-world Java apps
> > without knowing Java. So I don't think it's outrageous to require
> > XSP/XSL knowledge of cocoon developers :)
> >
> I'll try to convience our managers to stay with Cocoon, but I am not sure
> that I'll have success without strong arguments.

Perhaps Cocoon is simply not right for your shop. Perhaps you should
work in a different company ;-)

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> "Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> >
> > > What is the task of the users that you want to support with a tool?
Are
> > > you talking about users or developers?
> >
> > I am talking about developers who are not familiar with XSP and XSL and
also
> > about designers, who also know a little XSL and prefer to work with
visual
> > tools.
>
> Ok, I understand now. There is definitely no way to develop cocoon-based
> apps without knowledge of XSP and XSL.
>

Yes, I think so too. But, for example, you can create HTML pages without
knowing of HTML and direct editing of tags. And a development tool is a
necessary thing for any development technologie. Maybe that's why Cocoon is
not as widely used as JSP or ASP?

> > We are trying to develope a framework (a web front-end to an application
> > server) and other 3rd party people will get this framework, extend and
> > customize it for a particular client. But it is not a very good idea to
> > require knowledge of XSP and even XSL from them.
>
> Well, I don't think there's a way to develop real-world Java apps
> without knowing Java. So I don't think it's outrageous to require
> XSP/XSL knowledge of cocoon developers :)
>
> For the designers things are different: just use any XSL tool you like.
> Cocoon doesn't do anything "special" in its treatment of XSL, but XSP is
> an (almost) cocoon-proprietary technology.

I'll try to convience our managers to stay with Cocoon, but I am not sure
that I'll have success without strong arguments.

Ok! thank you for your time.

>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Kot.

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

"Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> 
> > What is the task of the users that you want to support with a tool? Are
> > you talking about users or developers?
> 
> I am talking about developers who are not familiar with XSP and XSL and also
> about designers, who also know a little XSL and prefer to work with visual
> tools.

Ok, I understand now. There is definitely no way to develop cocoon-based
apps without knowledge of XSP and XSL.

> We are trying to develope a framework (a web front-end to an application
> server) and other 3rd party people will get this framework, extend and
> customize it for a particular client. But it is not a very good idea to
> require knowledge of XSP and even XSL from them.

Well, I don't think there's a way to develop real-world Java apps
without knowing Java. So I don't think it's outrageous to require
XSP/XSL knowledge of cocoon developers :)

For the designers things are different: just use any XSL tool you like.
Cocoon doesn't do anything "special" in its treatment of XSL, but XSP is
an (almost) cocoon-proprietary technology.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

Thank you all for your answers, opinions and comments.

What I gathered from your answers, Cocoon vs. JSP/Servlets, is:

1. It's programming anyway.
Anyway there will be some programming tasks either with Cocoon or JSP that
will require a good knowledge of Java and somebody have to do that work.

2. Cocoon separates programming and presentation.
JSP has visual tools of development, but JSP programmer must know also HTML,
when a Cocoon programmer can use only XSP (Java+XML) and another one
(designer, web-master) can develope stylesheets with XSLT and he can be no
programmer at all. So, to customize the presentation of data there is no
programming tasks, more over, the same XSP can be used for different
presentation styles: HTML, WML, PDF, plain text, another HTML for printing,
etc.

3. For customization tasks with Cocoon can be created a special editor (like
in FP samples) and all tasks will require only XML editing. The same thing
with JSP will be more complecated and can result in creation of some
XML-like description of logic/presentation settings.

4. There is at least one development tool is in development for Cocoon
(Easance - www.easance.com )! So, there is a hope that it will be not the
only one.

My personal opinion is that Cocoon is a very good solution for large,
multi-language, multi-style interactive sites, etc.
JSP can be better for development of more complicated dynamic sites where
the presentation does not require different styles and frequent updates.

Regards,
    Konstantin Piroumian.

P.S. Sorry for my english.


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Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> "Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> >
> > But I am looking for something like XSplit + editor: an editor for
layout
> > and a automated tool for splitting generated HTML (or some XML in
internal
> > format) into XML/XSP and an XSL stylesheet.
>
> I'm not sure I understand this :)
>
> What is the task of the users that you want to support with a tool? Are
> you talking about users or developers?

I am talking about developers who are not familiar with XSP and XSL and also
about designers, who also know a little XSL and prefer to work with visual
tools.
We are trying to develope a framework (a web front-end to an application
server) and other 3rd party people will get this framework, extend and
customize it for a particular client. But it is not a very good idea to
require knowledge of XSP and even XSL from them.

>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
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>

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

"Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> 
> But I am looking for something like XSplit + editor: an editor for layout
> and a automated tool for splitting generated HTML (or some XML in internal
> format) into XML/XSP and an XSL stylesheet.

I'm not sure I understand this :)

What is the task of the users that you want to support with a tool? Are
you talking about users or developers?

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> "Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> >
> > When I say a visual development tool I mean some kind of an editor (like
> > DreamWeaver, FrontPage, etc.) where you can design your page layout with
> > drag-n-drop in WYSIWYG manner and add some logic, e.g. from menu:
> >     Insert->Use logic sheet...->Choose from available logicsheets.
> >     Insert->Java Bean...->Choose a bean class.
> >
> > Something like that.
>
> You'll want to use XMetal then, it can read an XML Schema file or a DTD
> and presents you with a choice of possible tags to insert at the point,
> where the cursor currently is. Developing pages with cocoon is just
> writing XML tags, not more. And developing logicsheets is programming in
> Java and XSLT - non-developers won't want to do that.

I use XMLSpy successfully, it can do the same thing that you mentioned about
XMetal and also it has other very usefull possibilities: such as visual
Schema design, integration with source control, etc (see:
http://www.xmlspy.com for details).

But I am looking for something like XSplit + editor: an editor for layout
and a automated tool for splitting generated HTML (or some XML in internal
format) into XML/XSP and an XSL stylesheet.

Sometimes I can hardly understand even my own XML/XSP/XSL mixture in my
logicsheets, so it would be a very difficult task for others to support that
code.
Of course, I use comments ...sometimes :)

>
> Ulrich
>
> --
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
>

Regards,
    Konstantin.

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

"Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> 
> When I say a visual development tool I mean some kind of an editor (like
> DreamWeaver, FrontPage, etc.) where you can design your page layout with
> drag-n-drop in WYSIWYG manner and add some logic, e.g. from menu:
>     Insert->Use logic sheet...->Choose from available logicsheets.
>     Insert->Java Bean...->Choose a bean class.
> 
> Something like that.

You'll want to use XMetal then, it can read an XML Schema file or a DTD
and presents you with a choice of possible tags to insert at the point,
where the cursor currently is. Developing pages with cocoon is just
writing XML tags, not more. And developing logicsheets is programming in
Java and XSLT - non-developers won't want to do that.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

> : Well, XSP is just a mix of XSLT and Java, so you can use whatever tools
> : you like for these areas. Personally, I use a regular text editor for
> : XML/XSL and Netbeans for Java.
>
> I personally use SciTE (http://www.scintilla.org). I like it because it
has
> syntax highlighting for JAVA, XML etc. This editor is also capable to use
> another type of syntax highlighting for for example javascript embedded in
a
> HTML page, or PHP combined with HTML. In other words it can be capable of
> using a different style of syntax highlighing for xsp:logic blocks if
> someone creates a proper syntax highlighting property file for it. So far
I
> am at no success in doing this (I must admit, I did not try enough), I
also
> asked the authors if they can include this in future releases of SciTE so
> maybe the next version will have support for XSP...

That would be a very good option for a developer with a good knowledge of
XSP/XSL. But our client would not be satisfied with a simple text editor,
even with very cool highlighting and development automation options.

When I say a visual development tool I mean some kind of an editor (like
DreamWeaver, FrontPage, etc.) where you can design your page layout with
drag-n-drop in WYSIWYG manner and add some logic, e.g. from menu:
    Insert->Use logic sheet...->Choose from available logicsheets.
    Insert->Java Bean...->Choose a bean class.

Something like that.

Then, after creation of layout it must be split into XSP and XSL parts and
maybe another XSL stylesheet can be designed with the same XSP.
I am not sure that in a close future this kind of tools would be available.
And I am not sure that it will be easier to use a visual tool rather than an
editor (like XML Spy or SciTE) for XSP. But it's my personal opinion and our
client/system integrator have another - different - one.

>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>

Regards,
    Konstantin.

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Peter C. Verhage" <pe...@zeelandnet.nl>]

: Well, XSP is just a mix of XSLT and Java, so you can use whatever tools
: you like for these areas. Personally, I use a regular text editor for
: XML/XSL and Netbeans for Java.

I personally use SciTE (http://www.scintilla.org). I like it because it has
syntax highlighting for JAVA, XML etc. This editor is also capable to use
another type of syntax highlighting for for example javascript embedded in a
HTML page, or PHP combined with HTML. In other words it can be capable of
using a different style of syntax highlighing for xsp:logic blocks if
someone creates a proper syntax highlighting property file for it. So far I
am at no success in doing this (I must admit, I did not try enough), I also
asked the authors if they can include this in future releases of SciTE so
maybe the next version will have support for XSP...

Regards,

Peter

Re: Cocoon/XSP development tools

[Uli Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Piroumian, Konstantin wrote:

> Development of web applications is not very easy with Cocoon: many
> developers know Java, some know XSL(T) and a very few are familar with XSP.

Well, XSP is just a mix of XSLT and Java, so you can use whatever tools
you like for these areas. Personally, I use a regular text editor for
XML/XSL and Netbeans for Java.

> From the opposite view: JSP has a lot of tools, IDEs. I know that it's not a
> trivial task to implement a development tool for XSP/XSL, but how do you
> work on large projects?

I suspect that ant is the answer.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung

Cocoon/XSP development tools

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

Hi, all!

Are there any visual development tools for XSP development like for JSP or
any tools that makes development easier?

Development of web applications is not very easy with Cocoon: many
developers know Java, some know XSL(T) and a very few are familar with XSP.

[C2] Latest packed version

["Piroumian, Konstantin" <KP...@flagship.ru>]

Hi, cocooners!

Is there any place, except CVS, where I can get Cocoon 2?
I am behind a firewall and cannot download it from the CVS.
Can anybody create a Zip archive with the latest more or less stable version
and send it to me or place somewhere where I can download it?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
    Konstantin Piroumian.

Re: media, media, media ?

[Klaus Drechsler <dr...@gmx.net>]

At 16:27 06.03.2001, you wrote:
>If you haven't understood, suppose you want your xml vocabulary to be
>transform on monday by the monday_voc.xsl, on tuesday by the
>tuesday_voc.xsl.. and so on...

Make a DayOfTheWeekAction which returns in a HashMap the key "day" with a 
value
-gues what ;)- the actual day of the week.

In the Sitemap you will use it like this:

<map:match pattern="sm/*">
     <map:act type="dayoftheweek">
         <map:generate src="bla.xsp"/>
         <map:transform src="{day}_voc.xsl"/>
         <map:serialize type="html"/>
     </map:act>
</map:match>

So if the Action returs day=monday, the monday_voc.xsl is used etc.

Bye,
  Klaus

-- 
Farewell! I will omit no opportunity
That may convey my greetings, love, to thee.
                                   Romeo&Juliet
                         (Act III, Scene V)
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