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Posted to docs@cocoon.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> on 2003/03/27 07:03:54 UTC
Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Le Mercredi, 26 mars 2003, à 21:08 Europe/Zurich, Diana Shannon a écrit
:
> On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> - Someone needs to decide how to use the tabs. How about:
>>
>> | Home | User docs | Dev docs | Wiki |
>
> I think the community needs to decide this, not any individual. Again,
> it's been discussed by some of us already across different threads....
IMHO waiting for community consensus on such things often slows things
down.
I don't think it's such a big thing as to require a vote.
Having visible changes in the docs makes it easier to get feedback,
much more efficient than long discussions that often send people back
to waiting mode.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against community decisions, it's just that
we have to find a balance and there is a big need for *action* in the
docs department right now, there is some momentum and we have to do our
best to keep it.
Release early, release often - I think this should apply to the docs as
well as the code, CVS is here to fix things when needed.
My 2 swiss centimes.
-Bertrand
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 07:08 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Consensus is cool, turning it into a UN security council decision for
> everything is only going to slow things down.
So then how would you have handled the cocoon-docs question differently?
I didn't call for a vote. Yet a vote was called, and now we don't have a
100% agreement, so we do "nothing" new, which means a minority of people
are deciding what's going to happen. Is that community? Is that a
do-acracy?
People may equate docs == inertia, but it's really not fair. Remember,
we've been stuck in the mud with a static site limitations until only
very recently. We've deliberately held back on new approaches until
Forrest transition occurred. Sometimes discussions may have predominated
but that was simply because our options were limited.
Going forward, what's the best approach for the seeming majority of us
who want a sandbox for docs? Prototype a poor man's wiki-cms system on
cocooondev (with Steven's good wishes, of course). Show how it works,
figure out what it needs, and then reapproach this list for "approval".
Diana
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le Mercredi, 26 mars 2003, à 21:08 Europe/Zurich, Diana Shannon a écrit :
>
>> On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Jeff Turner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> - Someone needs to decide how to use the tabs. How about:
>>>
>>> | Home | User docs | Dev docs | Wiki |
>>
>>
>> I think the community needs to decide this, not any individual. Again,
>> it's been discussed by some of us already across different threads....
>
>
> IMHO waiting for community consensus on such things often slows things
> down.
> I don't think it's such a big thing as to require a vote.
>
> Having visible changes in the docs makes it easier to get feedback, much
> more efficient than long discussions that often send people back to
> waiting mode.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not against community decisions, it's just that
> we have to find a balance and there is a big need for *action* in the
> docs department right now, there is some momentum and we have to do our
> best to keep it.
>
> Release early, release often - I think this should apply to the docs as
> well as the code, CVS is here to fix things when needed.
>
> My 2 swiss centimes.
Big +1.
Consensus is cool, turning it into a UN security council decision for
everything is only going to slow things down.
Do-ocracy. At last.
Stefano.
Re: Forrest documentation tabs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Diana Shannon a écrit:
> > Jeff Turner wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> - Someone needs to decide how to use the tabs. ...
> >
> > I think the community needs to decide this, not any individual.
> > Again, it's been discussed by some of us already across
> > different threads....
>
> IMHO waiting for community consensus on such things often slows
> things down.
> I don't think it's such a big thing as to require a vote.
>
> Having visible changes in the docs makes it easier to get feedback,
> much more efficient than long discussions that often send people back
> to waiting mode.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not against community decisions, it's just that
> we have to find a balance and there is a big need for *action* in the
> docs department right now, there is some momentum and we have to do our
> best to keep it.
We can also consider "action and fix later" to be a
community decision. The changes in cvs can be enhanced
or rolled back if the community does not like it.
Just vote when big disruptive changes are needed.
> Release early, release often - I think this should apply to the docs as
> well as the code, CVS is here to fix things when needed.
>
> My 2 swiss centimes.
Plus my 2 Australian cents ... if that registers against
your valuable expenditure :-)
--David
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:47:26AM -0500, Diana Shannon wrote:
...
> Maybe I'm overcomplicating this, and I sincerely apologize if I am, but
> I see tabs as intimately connected to decisions related to URI space and
> docs reorganization. I think deciding tabs before a docs reorganization,
> is premature -- IMHO. Anyone ready to reorganize docs? Or is this a
> one-person job?
Technically, Forrest tabs are completely passive things that simply react
based on the current path. Specifically, changes in tabs.xml can *never*
affect the URI space. Tabs are purely a navigational aid. Changing tabs
is like changing a set of bookmarks in a physical book.
As such, I think a bit of tinkering won't hurt, especially as the
Forrest-generated site is far from going live.
> I also am against maintaining the artificial distinction between user
> and developer docs.
+1
--Jeff
> So I could live with
>
> | Cocoon (project related) | Docs (all docs) | Samples (all samples,
> may not exist on web site) | Wiki
>
> for now.
>
> Diana
>
>
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Diana Shannon wrote:
> Maybe I'm overcomplicating this, and I sincerely apologize if I am, but
> I see tabs as intimately connected to decisions related to URI space and
> docs reorganization. I think deciding tabs before a docs reorganization,
> is premature -- IMHO. Anyone ready to reorganize docs? Or is this a
> one-person job?
I'm waiting on the final decision for cocoon-docs CVS before ploughing in
with suggestions and help on reorganising the docs. But it's not a
one-person job; you are not alone!
> I also am against maintaining the artificial distinction between user
> and developer docs.
Ditto. I think a more natural distinction (if, indeed, a distinction needs
to be made) is between "reference" and "user guide/howto" ...
> | Cocoon (project related) | Docs (all docs) | Samples (all samples,
> may not exist on web site) | Wiki
or that ;-)
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 07:41 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> But if no one has the time or will to come up with alternate proposals
> for tabs, I think Jeff should go ahead and implement his tabs proposal,
> without waiting too long for answers.
I guess don't see why we need tabs yet because we can use Forrest with a
single tab.
Maybe I'm overcomplicating this, and I sincerely apologize if I am, but
I see tabs as intimately connected to decisions related to URI space and
docs reorganization. I think deciding tabs before a docs reorganization,
is premature -- IMHO. Anyone ready to reorganize docs? Or is this a
one-person job?
I also am against maintaining the artificial distinction between user
and developer docs.
So I could live with
| Cocoon (project related) | Docs (all docs) | Samples (all samples,
may not exist on web site) | Wiki
for now.
Diana
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le Jeudi, 27 mars 2003, à 13:24 Europe/Zurich, Diana Shannon a écrit :
> ...I wasn't asking for a vote, just hoping to bring back some very
> good ideas about tabs, lacking the time ATM to make a proposal about
> tabs myself.
ok, no problem.
But if no one has the time or will to come up with alternate proposals
for tabs, I think Jeff should go ahead and implement his tabs proposal,
without waiting too long for answers.
-Bertrand
Re: Forrest documentation tabs (was [vote] Forrestizing Cocoon...)
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 01:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> - Someone needs to decide how to use the tabs. How about:
>>>
>>> | Home | User docs | Dev docs | Wiki |
>>
>> I think the community needs to decide this, not any individual. Again,
>> it's been discussed by some of us already across different threads....
>
> IMHO waiting for community consensus on such things often slows things
> down.
> I don't think it's such a big thing as to require a vote.
I wasn't asking for a vote, just hoping to bring back some very good
ideas about tabs, lacking the time ATM to make a proposal about tabs
myself.
Diana