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Posted to users@wicket.apache.org by Troy Cauble <tr...@gmail.com> on 2009/08/02 19:40:46 UTC
Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Are there any resources for Wicket that a non web or ajax developer
should be aware of?
Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
I know that this was a design choice and you can't teach everybody
everything. I'm just asking if this info exists somewhere. And OTOH,
Wicket is trying to hide the web model.
For example, given that I can make a Link look like a button, when
should I use a Link vs a Button? I have no idea.
Thanks,
-troy
Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Marcin Palka <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I think the "Wicket in Action" is a good book to start. It even has a
chapter called "Ajax explained" :-) I don't know if it explains how the web
app works as such but it goes through the entire development process of a
Wicket web application so you should be able to get the idea behind. And
it's less than 400 pages :-)
cheers,
Marcin
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Eyal Golan <eg...@gmail.com>.
I haven't seen any 'special' article of the kind you are looking for.
However, I can just say for myself that when I started working with Wicket,
all I new was basic HTML. I didn't even know exactly what was CSS. Slowly I
became better in that area.
Everyday I learned something new about webdev (as yo call it).
I even 'stole' many example code. yes i did :) Which I believe is a very
good way to learn.
I can also tell you that I do feel sometimes the gap of not knowing really
good JS and Ajax. For these special occasions we take an outside consultant.
I usually look behind his shoulder and learn. or just read the svn
difference when I update my project.
What I suggest is, read the Wicket wiki, google, check this user list and
ask questions (I once asked how to write the JS for closing a window. And
was answered really quick.), check the example and if you can, have a phone
number of an ajax / js expert for the REALLY complex stuff.
Eyal Golan
egolan74@gmail.com
Visit: http://jvdrums.sourceforge.net/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/egolan74
P Save a tree. Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Troy Cauble <tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Igor Vaynberg <igor.vaynberg@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
> > > these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
> > > AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
> >
> > what part of that name or javadoc is hard for you to understand?
>
>
> I'm saying it's hard for someone without a prior web development
> background.
>
> The javadoc says "A behavior that updates ... via ajax....", but I only
> have
> a
> vague idea why or when I might need to do that. Also it takes a javascript
> event string argument that is not explained. (I can google "javascript
> events"
> and guess or I can steal from example code.)
>
> Even more to the point, AttributeModifier require you to write javascript
> and know the
> likely form of what your modifying. Without googling examples of
> confirmation
> dialogs, I could have never guessed that "AttributeModifier" was the
> relevant
> class for that.
>
> This is not a criticism of Wicket or the docs. I know the target user is
> someone
> who's done traditional webdev first and came looking for something better.
>
> I was just curious if there happened to be any articles that filled in the
> gaps
> for those of us attempting to skip directly to Wicket.
>
> Thanks,
> -troy
>
Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by shetc <sh...@bellsouth.net>.
Ok, sorry, you guys have always been very helpful to me. Maybe we can
together with Barak and down a few beers :blush:
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by CrocodileShoes <ma...@logica.com>.
I'm sure he was just using WTF as a reference to his own reaction when
digging down into the deeper classes and not as a criticism. In fact I
think he has said this.
Using Google is fine but Google sometimes refers you forums and mailing
lists where experts can help.
Anyway, the wicket in action book is very good, I would definitely recommend
reading that. I understand where you are coming from but like others have
said I don't think there is a single resource for getting you up to speed
with the foundations of web development. The resources you are looking for
are just books on Javascript, dom, ajax, css etc.
If you have a requirement like "I want to change style of my table" you
should be able to find enough info in the wiki which would lead you to the
Attribute Modifier. There is a "How to.." section :)
Stick with it!
igor.vaynberg wrote:
>
> whenever i try to be courteous i also usually try to start by
> including at least one "wtf" in my question :)
>
> -igor
>
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Erik Post<er...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm sorry to see a couple of somewhat uncourteous responses in this
>> thread. The guy is just asking a question that might well benefit
>> others who are interested in Wicket too. Coming from e.g. Swing, there
>> is indeed quite a lot of stuff to grok, and things can seem
>> overwhelming, so why not just try and help each other out?
>>
>> That said, I would agree that becoming familiar with some of the
>> basics of web related work isn't going to hurt, especially given the
>> ubiquity of the web as a UI platform these days. If you want to do
>> without that, things like Flex, or perhaps even WebOnSwing and POJO
>> Application Server come to mind.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Erik
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:33 AM, shetc<sh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess the name LazyBoy says it all.
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
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>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
whenever i try to be courteous i also usually try to start by
including at least one "wtf" in my question :)
-igor
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Erik Post<er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry to see a couple of somewhat uncourteous responses in this
> thread. The guy is just asking a question that might well benefit
> others who are interested in Wicket too. Coming from e.g. Swing, there
> is indeed quite a lot of stuff to grok, and things can seem
> overwhelming, so why not just try and help each other out?
>
> That said, I would agree that becoming familiar with some of the
> basics of web related work isn't going to hurt, especially given the
> ubiquity of the web as a UI platform these days. If you want to do
> without that, things like Flex, or perhaps even WebOnSwing and POJO
> Application Server come to mind.
>
> Cheers,
> Erik
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:33 AM, shetc<sh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> I guess the name LazyBoy says it all.
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wicket-for-non-Web-AJAX-developers--tp24780111p24783233.html
>> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Erik Post <er...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I'm sorry to see a couple of somewhat uncourteous responses in this
thread. The guy is just asking a question that might well benefit
others who are interested in Wicket too. Coming from e.g. Swing, there
is indeed quite a lot of stuff to grok, and things can seem
overwhelming, so why not just try and help each other out?
That said, I would agree that becoming familiar with some of the
basics of web related work isn't going to hurt, especially given the
ubiquity of the web as a UI platform these days. If you want to do
without that, things like Flex, or perhaps even WebOnSwing and POJO
Application Server come to mind.
Cheers,
Erik
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:33 AM, shetc<sh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> I guess the name LazyBoy says it all.
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wicket-for-non-Web-AJAX-developers--tp24780111p24783233.html
> Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by shetc <sh...@bellsouth.net>.
I guess the name LazyBoy says it all.
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
>> > these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
>> > AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
>>
>> what part of that name or javadoc is hard for you to understand?
>
>
> I'm saying it's hard for someone without a prior web development background.
without prior knowledge of java it would be hard to learn hibernate.
without prior knowledge of sql it would be hard to learn plsql. thats
just how things work, you need to know the context of your problem
domain.
> The javadoc says "A behavior that updates ... via ajax....", but I only have a vague idea why or when I might need to do that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28programming%29
> Also it takes a javascript
> event string argument that is not explained. (I can google "javascript
> events"
> and guess or I can steal from example code.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOM_events
both of those links are a google search away
more to the point, why are you using this class as an example? you say
you dont know when you need to use it...obviously if you dont know
what it does then you dont need to use it. you are looking at a tool
and complaining that you dont understand the problem it solves - thats
a little backwards.
> Even more to the point, AttributeModifier require you to write javascript
> and know the
> likely form of what your modifying. Without googling examples of
> confirmation
> dialogs, I could have never guessed that "AttributeModifier" was the
> relevant
> class for that.
sorry? All AttributeModifier does is Modify a markup Attribute. not a
bad name. of course that attribute value can contain javascript if you
wish, but not a requirement by any means.
-igor
> This is not a criticism of Wicket or the docs. I know the target user is
> someone
> who's done traditional webdev first and came looking for something better.
>
> I was just curious if there happened to be any articles that filled in the
> gaps
> for those of us attempting to skip directly to Wicket.
>
> Thanks,
> -troy
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Troy Cauble <tr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
> > these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
> > AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
>
> what part of that name or javadoc is hard for you to understand?
I'm saying it's hard for someone without a prior web development background.
The javadoc says "A behavior that updates ... via ajax....", but I only have
a
vague idea why or when I might need to do that. Also it takes a javascript
event string argument that is not explained. (I can google "javascript
events"
and guess or I can steal from example code.)
Even more to the point, AttributeModifier require you to write javascript
and know the
likely form of what your modifying. Without googling examples of
confirmation
dialogs, I could have never guessed that "AttributeModifier" was the
relevant
class for that.
This is not a criticism of Wicket or the docs. I know the target user is
someone
who's done traditional webdev first and came looking for something better.
I was just curious if there happened to be any articles that filled in the
gaps
for those of us attempting to skip directly to Wicket.
Thanks,
-troy
Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
ps, you might want to look into wingS or echo frameworks. i think
their level of abstraction is higher and might be what you are looking
for. of course, the higher the level of abstraction the less control
you have over the final product, keep that in mind and find a good
balance for your needs.
-igor
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Igor Vaynberg<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
>> these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
>> AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
>
> what part of that name or javadoc is hard for you to understand?
>
>> I know that this was a design choice and you can't teach everybody
>> everything. I'm just asking if this info exists somewhere.
>
> not really sure.
>
>> And OTOH, Wicket is trying to hide the web model.
>
> totally and completely wrong. wicket abstracts away the nastiest part
> of writng webapps - the stateless nature of http, not the fact that
> you are writing a web app.
>
>> For example, given that I can make a Link look like a button, when
>> should I use a Link vs a Button? I have no idea.
>
> it solely depends on your UI requirements (what markup you want to
> use). we make it easy to work with either an anchor tag or a
> button/input type=submit tag.
>
> -igor
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -troy
>>
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Igor Vaynberg <ig...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Troy Cauble<tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
> these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
> AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
what part of that name or javadoc is hard for you to understand?
> I know that this was a design choice and you can't teach everybody
> everything. I'm just asking if this info exists somewhere.
not really sure.
> And OTOH, Wicket is trying to hide the web model.
totally and completely wrong. wicket abstracts away the nastiest part
of writng webapps - the stateless nature of http, not the fact that
you are writing a web app.
> For example, given that I can make a Link look like a button, when
> should I use a Link vs a Button? I have no idea.
it solely depends on your UI requirements (what markup you want to
use). we make it easy to work with either an anchor tag or a
button/input type=submit tag.
-igor
>
> Thanks,
> -troy
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Martin Makundi <ma...@koodaripalvelut.com>.
> For example, given that I can make a Link look like a button, when
> should I use a Link vs a Button? I have no idea.
Duh... there is/was a bug on BUTTON at least on firefox (might have
affected only non-ajax buttons). You cannot distinguish which button
was pressed. So it is safer to use LINk when you need to style the
link freely.
What I am trying to say is: just try it out and bang your head to the
tree. Wicket is so customizable that it is very hard to make generic
examples - each project might need to tweak things differently to its
needs.
**
Martin
>
> Thanks,
> -troy
>
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Re: Wicket for non Web/AJAX developers?
Posted by Alex Objelean <al...@yahoo.com>.
The similar confusion had a friend of mine who didn't have any experience at
all with wicket.... and indeed, at the first glance, a 33 letters long class
seems a bit strange :)... But, you must know that according to wicket coding
convensions:
- each class implementing IBehavior interface has a 'Behavior' suffix
- each ajax related component or behavior has an 'Ajax' prefix
Remove those two, and it will become easier to understand...
Do you have other suggestions for naming convensions?
Alex Objelean
LazyBoy wrote:
>
> Much of the class design & documentation assume knowledge of
> these things, especially when you get down to stuff like
> AjaxFormComponentUpdatingBehavior. WTF?
>
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