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Posted to diversity@apache.org by Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org> on 2021/05/04 13:15:38 UTC
Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Hello all @diversity,
We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation of
such changes.
I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache CloudStack
project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked bellow:
1. [Discuss] thread:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
2. [Vote] thread:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides projects
on adopting inclusive words?
If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board Mailing
list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
I appreciate any feedback.
Best Regards,
--
Gabriel Beims Bräscher
Apache CloudStack PMC Chair (CloudStack VP)
The Apache Software Foundation
https://www.apache.org/
https://cloudstack.apache.org/
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
Many years ago, the folks working on the httpd docs decided to
consolidate the voice that was being used in the docs, and switched to
addressing the user/admin, using "you", rather than speaking of the user
in the third person (he, she, they). (I've been away from the httpd docs
for a few years, and I do not know if this practice has continued. I
should have a look.)
This has the dual advantage of avoiding the need for the weird, awkward,
random switching between genders in examples and phrasing, and also
focuses you on thinking of the reader as you write. Who are they? What
are they trying to accomplish in this moment?
"Conscious language" is more than just avoiding troublesome words. It's
about making conscious, intentional choices of words and phrases that
are the *best* for the situation. Which is, of course, why simple
"switch this word with that word" replacement lists are insufficient.
On 5/7/21 2:27 PM, Craig Russell wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This part is not optimal for me:
> Gendered pronouns
> Try using epicene (gender-neutral) pronouns such as 'they', 'them', 'one'.
> OR mix it up, use both he and she in the documentation at random(?)
>
> I have not seen any cases where "they", "them", or "one" is insufficient. I'd probably add "their" to the list.
>
> So I'd remove the "OR mix it up" bullet point. [We just made this change in the Bylaws https://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html Amendment II and never needed anything except for "they", "them", or "their".]
>
> Craig
>
>> On May 7, 2021, at 6:29 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 07/05/2021 15.23, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>>> We are also working elsewhere on a list of alternative terms to many tech words, at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Nomenclature+substitution+alternatives - this might be locked off for many people, so I'll aim at bringing this into the EDI wiki later this week.
>>
>> I did a quick copy+paste, and it is now public at:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EDI/Nomenclature+alternatives
>>
>> comments, changes, etc are welcome.
>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> clr@apache.org
>
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
@rbowen
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Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
This part is not optimal for me:
Gendered pronouns
Try using epicene (gender-neutral) pronouns such as 'they', 'them', 'one'.
OR mix it up, use both he and she in the documentation at random(?)
I have not seen any cases where "they", "them", or "one" is insufficient. I'd probably add "their" to the list.
So I'd remove the "OR mix it up" bullet point. [We just made this change in the Bylaws https://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html Amendment II and never needed anything except for "they", "them", or "their".]
Craig
> On May 7, 2021, at 6:29 AM, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 07/05/2021 15.23, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>> We are also working elsewhere on a list of alternative terms to many tech words, at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Nomenclature+substitution+alternatives - this might be locked off for many people, so I'll aim at bringing this into the EDI wiki later this week.
>
> I did a quick copy+paste, and it is now public at:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EDI/Nomenclature+alternatives
>
> comments, changes, etc are welcome.
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 07/05/2021 15.23, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>
> We are also working elsewhere on a list of alternative terms to many
> tech words, at
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Nomenclature+substitution+alternatives
> - this might be locked off for many people, so I'll aim at bringing this
> into the EDI wiki later this week.
>
I did a quick copy+paste, and it is now public at:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EDI/Nomenclature+alternatives
comments, changes, etc are welcome.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 04/05/2021 15.15, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> Hello all @diversity,
>
> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
>
> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation of
> such changes.
>
> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache CloudStack
> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked bellow:
>
> 1. [Discuss] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> 2. [Vote] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>
> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides projects
> on adopting inclusive words?
> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
>
> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board Mailing
> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
>
> I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Best Regards,
>
We are also working elsewhere on a list of alternative terms to many
tech words, at
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Nomenclature+substitution+alternatives
- this might be locked off for many people, so I'll aim at bringing this
into the EDI wiki later this week.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Katia Rojas <ka...@apache.org>.
Hi Rich,
Yes, I agree with your approach. Sharing different experiences/examples
doesn't mean giving a "solution" to copy-paste. Said this, it would be
great to centralize the efforts in one place. We are also researching for
more examples.
Here are the confluence pages that could be used for this initiative:
1. Main page:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=112820458
-> Here, we could create a subpage in this tree.
2. Blog:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewrecentblogposts.action?key=EDI
-> Here, we could create blog posts for different examples.
Also, if you are interested, please see our Outreachy meeting notes here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EDI/Outreachy+Working+Group+-+Meeting+notes
Initially, we set this meeting to talk about the Outreachy program only
however we have been including more topics during the last months.
Our meetings are biweekly, every second Wednesday, at 18:00H UTC time zone,
set for one hour but usually lasts 30 minutes. Our next meeting is on June
2nd. If you would like to attend, please share your email address and I
will add you to the invitation.
Thanks,
Katia
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:06 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 5/18/21 1:46 PM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> > Thanks for the update, Rich.
> >
> > I agree 100% with you. We can work towards recommending some options, but
> > in the end, each project has its own context.
> >
> > As an example, Kevin showed a nice case where it was adopted *a 'welcome
> > list*' and *'block list*' in order to kept backward compatibility in
> their
> > context.
> > As opposed to the *'welcome/block*', CloudStack was already adopting
> > *'allow/block'* for a while at some points and now we are normalizing it
> > all to use only 'alow/block'.
> >
> > From what I have seen there is also a need for some sort of pattern; I
> have
> > seen people arguing that such changes would not make sense as there is no
> > pattern or guideline to be followed, as if we need to have a consensus in
> > the IT industry (or some entity such as ASF) before moving on with such
> > changes.
>
> This is one of the main things that https://inclusivenaming.org/ is
> working on, and we should go participate in that, rather than doing that
> work independently here. That will avoid having YAS (Yet Another
> Standard), and it will also benefit both us, and them, by lending
> another voice to the effort.
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> @rbowen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 5/18/21 1:46 PM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> Thanks for the update, Rich.
>
> I agree 100% with you. We can work towards recommending some options, but
> in the end, each project has its own context.
>
> As an example, Kevin showed a nice case where it was adopted *a 'welcome
> list*' and *'block list*' in order to kept backward compatibility in their
> context.
> As opposed to the *'welcome/block*', CloudStack was already adopting
> *'allow/block'* for a while at some points and now we are normalizing it
> all to use only 'alow/block'.
>
> From what I have seen there is also a need for some sort of pattern; I have
> seen people arguing that such changes would not make sense as there is no
> pattern or guideline to be followed, as if we need to have a consensus in
> the IT industry (or some entity such as ASF) before moving on with such
> changes.
This is one of the main things that https://inclusivenaming.org/ is
working on, and we should go participate in that, rather than doing that
work independently here. That will avoid having YAS (Yet Another
Standard), and it will also benefit both us, and them, by lending
another voice to the effort.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
@rbowen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org>.
Thanks for the update, Rich.
I agree 100% with you. We can work towards recommending some options, but
in the end, each project has its own context.
As an example, Kevin showed a nice case where it was adopted *a 'welcome
list*' and *'block list*' in order to kept backward compatibility in their
context.
As opposed to the *'welcome/block*', CloudStack was already adopting
*'allow/block'* for a while at some points and now we are normalizing it
all to use only 'alow/block'.
From what I have seen there is also a need for some sort of pattern; I have
seen people arguing that such changes would not make sense as there is no
pattern or guideline to be followed, as if we need to have a consensus in
the IT industry (or some entity such as ASF) before moving on with such
changes.
It is quite necessary to "recommend" but important to not "impose".
Regards
Em ter., 18 de mai. de 2021 às 14:30, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>
escreveu:
>
>
> On 5/18/21 12:59 PM, Katia Rojas wrote:
> > Hello Rich,
> >
> > Thank you for bringing this up to the group. Yes, it would be great if
> you
> > could share with us your experiences and progress. A blog post or a
> > dedicated page to centralize those efforts would be ideal so others with
> > the same questions could gain from your experience and work.
>
> I would be glad to do that.
>
> That said ... it's important to present this information in such a way
> that it is clear that we are saying "Here's what some of our projects
> are doing" rather than "Here's what you must do." Or, even worse,
> calling out projects that have not made this a priority as being somehow
> bad.
>
> Not all of our projects are receptive to these changes, and however we
> might feel about it on this list, that's their decision to make, not one
> to be handed down from a President's working group. It's a delicate
> balance to strike between encouraging them to make a change, and making
> it a mandate from on high.
>
>
> > We could use confluence for this initiative. Let me find a good place in
> > confluence and I send you the links. Also, you can join us on one of our
> > D&I biweekly calls to discuss this topic, we always take meeting notes.
>
> I was not aware of the biweekly calls. Can you provide more detail, please?
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 17:31, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I noted in the Diversity board report the following comment with regard
> >> to this topic:
> >>
> >> "we don't have resources (people) to work on it."
> >>
> >> I thought it worth mentioning that, with my work hat on, I have, in
> >> fact, been working this issue, and have contacted a number of Apache
> >> projects to discuss this topic, over the past few months.
> >>
> >> In particular, I have talked with:
> >>
> >> * Tomcat
> >> * ActiveMQ
> >> * Karaf
> >> * Camel
> >> * CXF
> >> * Kafka
> >> * ServiceMix
> >>
> >> (Some of these were on-list, others were conversations with
> individuals.)
> >>
> >> And I have become aware of other projects (like Cloudstack, below) that
> >> are making these efforts also.
> >>
> >> I have, of course, had mixed results. But it's important to remember
> >> that while some changes are as easy as `sed "s/master/primary/g"`,
> >> others require deprecation cycles, coordination with
> >> upstream/downstream/dependency projects, and may take years. Starting
> >> the conversation is the important thing.
> >>
> >> I would be glad to write some things around these topics - indeed, I'm
> >> already writing a bunch of things for https://inclusivenaming.org/ as
> >> well as the internal Red Hat effort and my personal blog.
> >>
> >> Setting replacement *policy* has proven unproductive, elsewhere, because
> >> context matters. Telling everyone to replace "slave" with "replica" (or
> >> whatever) won't work, because every project has different needs, and the
> >> point of all of this is to choose the *right* word, not just do a blind
> >> search/replace.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 5/4/21 9:15 AM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> >>> Hello all @diversity,
> >>>
> >>> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some
> terms.
> >>>
> >>> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch
> and
> >>> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as
> "allow/deny-list".
> >>> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> >>> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to
> choose,
> >>> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation
> >> of
> >>> such changes.
> >>>
> >>> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache
> >> CloudStack
> >>> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked
> >> bellow:
> >>>
> >>> 1. [Discuss] thread:
> >>>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> >>> 2. [Vote] thread:
> >>>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> >>>
> >>> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides
> >> projects
> >>> on adopting inclusive words?
> >>> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
> >>>
> >>> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board
> >> Mailing
> >>> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
> >>>
> >>> I appreciate any feedback.
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> >> @rbowen
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> @rbowen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Gabriel Beims Bräscher
Apache CloudStack PMC Chair (CloudStack VP)
The Apache Software Foundation
https://www.apache.org/
https://cloudstack.apache.org/
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 5/18/21 12:59 PM, Katia Rojas wrote:
> Hello Rich,
>
> Thank you for bringing this up to the group. Yes, it would be great if you
> could share with us your experiences and progress. A blog post or a
> dedicated page to centralize those efforts would be ideal so others with
> the same questions could gain from your experience and work.
I would be glad to do that.
That said ... it's important to present this information in such a way
that it is clear that we are saying "Here's what some of our projects
are doing" rather than "Here's what you must do." Or, even worse,
calling out projects that have not made this a priority as being somehow
bad.
Not all of our projects are receptive to these changes, and however we
might feel about it on this list, that's their decision to make, not one
to be handed down from a President's working group. It's a delicate
balance to strike between encouraging them to make a change, and making
it a mandate from on high.
> We could use confluence for this initiative. Let me find a good place in
> confluence and I send you the links. Also, you can join us on one of our
> D&I biweekly calls to discuss this topic, we always take meeting notes.
I was not aware of the biweekly calls. Can you provide more detail, please?
> On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 17:31, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>> I noted in the Diversity board report the following comment with regard
>> to this topic:
>>
>> "we don't have resources (people) to work on it."
>>
>> I thought it worth mentioning that, with my work hat on, I have, in
>> fact, been working this issue, and have contacted a number of Apache
>> projects to discuss this topic, over the past few months.
>>
>> In particular, I have talked with:
>>
>> * Tomcat
>> * ActiveMQ
>> * Karaf
>> * Camel
>> * CXF
>> * Kafka
>> * ServiceMix
>>
>> (Some of these were on-list, others were conversations with individuals.)
>>
>> And I have become aware of other projects (like Cloudstack, below) that
>> are making these efforts also.
>>
>> I have, of course, had mixed results. But it's important to remember
>> that while some changes are as easy as `sed "s/master/primary/g"`,
>> others require deprecation cycles, coordination with
>> upstream/downstream/dependency projects, and may take years. Starting
>> the conversation is the important thing.
>>
>> I would be glad to write some things around these topics - indeed, I'm
>> already writing a bunch of things for https://inclusivenaming.org/ as
>> well as the internal Red Hat effort and my personal blog.
>>
>> Setting replacement *policy* has proven unproductive, elsewhere, because
>> context matters. Telling everyone to replace "slave" with "replica" (or
>> whatever) won't work, because every project has different needs, and the
>> point of all of this is to choose the *right* word, not just do a blind
>> search/replace.
>>
>>
>> On 5/4/21 9:15 AM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
>>> Hello all @diversity,
>>>
>>> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
>>>
>>> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
>>> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
>>> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
>>> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
>>> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation
>> of
>>> such changes.
>>>
>>> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache
>> CloudStack
>>> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked
>> bellow:
>>>
>>> 1. [Discuss] thread:
>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>>> 2. [Vote] thread:
>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>>>
>>> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides
>> projects
>>> on adopting inclusive words?
>>> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
>>>
>>> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board
>> Mailing
>>> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
>>>
>>> I appreciate any feedback.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
>> @rbowen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
@rbowen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Katia Rojas <ka...@apache.org>.
Hello Rich,
Thank you for bringing this up to the group. Yes, it would be great if you
could share with us your experiences and progress. A blog post or a
dedicated page to centralize those efforts would be ideal so others with
the same questions could gain from your experience and work.
We could use confluence for this initiative. Let me find a good place in
confluence and I send you the links. Also, you can join us on one of our
D&I biweekly calls to discuss this topic, we always take meeting notes.
Thanks,
Katia
On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 17:31, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> I noted in the Diversity board report the following comment with regard
> to this topic:
>
> "we don't have resources (people) to work on it."
>
> I thought it worth mentioning that, with my work hat on, I have, in
> fact, been working this issue, and have contacted a number of Apache
> projects to discuss this topic, over the past few months.
>
> In particular, I have talked with:
>
> * Tomcat
> * ActiveMQ
> * Karaf
> * Camel
> * CXF
> * Kafka
> * ServiceMix
>
> (Some of these were on-list, others were conversations with individuals.)
>
> And I have become aware of other projects (like Cloudstack, below) that
> are making these efforts also.
>
> I have, of course, had mixed results. But it's important to remember
> that while some changes are as easy as `sed "s/master/primary/g"`,
> others require deprecation cycles, coordination with
> upstream/downstream/dependency projects, and may take years. Starting
> the conversation is the important thing.
>
> I would be glad to write some things around these topics - indeed, I'm
> already writing a bunch of things for https://inclusivenaming.org/ as
> well as the internal Red Hat effort and my personal blog.
>
> Setting replacement *policy* has proven unproductive, elsewhere, because
> context matters. Telling everyone to replace "slave" with "replica" (or
> whatever) won't work, because every project has different needs, and the
> point of all of this is to choose the *right* word, not just do a blind
> search/replace.
>
>
> On 5/4/21 9:15 AM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> > Hello all @diversity,
> >
> > We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
> >
> > Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
> > also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
> > Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> > however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
> > as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation
> of
> > such changes.
> >
> > I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache
> CloudStack
> > project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked
> bellow:
> >
> > 1. [Discuss] thread:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> > 2. [Vote] thread:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> >
> > Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides
> projects
> > on adopting inclusive words?
> > If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
> >
> > I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board
> Mailing
> > list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
> >
> > I appreciate any feedback.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> @rbowen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
I noted in the Diversity board report the following comment with regard
to this topic:
"we don't have resources (people) to work on it."
I thought it worth mentioning that, with my work hat on, I have, in
fact, been working this issue, and have contacted a number of Apache
projects to discuss this topic, over the past few months.
In particular, I have talked with:
* Tomcat
* ActiveMQ
* Karaf
* Camel
* CXF
* Kafka
* ServiceMix
(Some of these were on-list, others were conversations with individuals.)
And I have become aware of other projects (like Cloudstack, below) that
are making these efforts also.
I have, of course, had mixed results. But it's important to remember
that while some changes are as easy as `sed "s/master/primary/g"`,
others require deprecation cycles, coordination with
upstream/downstream/dependency projects, and may take years. Starting
the conversation is the important thing.
I would be glad to write some things around these topics - indeed, I'm
already writing a bunch of things for https://inclusivenaming.org/ as
well as the internal Red Hat effort and my personal blog.
Setting replacement *policy* has proven unproductive, elsewhere, because
context matters. Telling everyone to replace "slave" with "replica" (or
whatever) won't work, because every project has different needs, and the
point of all of this is to choose the *right* word, not just do a blind
search/replace.
On 5/4/21 9:15 AM, Gabriel Beims Bräscher wrote:
> Hello all @diversity,
>
> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
>
> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation of
> such changes.
>
> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache CloudStack
> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked bellow:
>
> 1. [Discuss] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> 2. [Vote] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>
> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides projects
> on adopting inclusive words?
> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
>
> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board Mailing
> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
>
> I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Best Regards,
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
@rbowen
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Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 5/5/21 2:37 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:
> This reference should be useful:
> https://inclusivenaming.org/language/evaluation-framework/
>
FWIW the Inclusive Naming effort is still very young, and all of the
docs we're working on are still in flux. We're definitely working on a
*list*, but lists can be very divisive, for reasons that you've already
seen in this particular thread.
Lists tend to be received as Thou Shalt Not, and word policing, and
pretty soon the conversation turns to people misquoting 1984. As such, I
think that a word list is *absolutely* not the right place to start the
conversation, but, rather, something to bring in much later when people
start asking "what comes next?"
What we've found in our work on this topic at Red Hat, and in the
Inclusive Naming group, is that what's important is getting the
conversation started, and helping people understand that the
conversation is about compassion, not about control. Once you tackle a
few words/phrases that are easy to understand ("Slave" is a great place
to start), then in many cases someone in the project community begins to
champion the idea of conscious language choices as a path to welcoming
new contributors, rather than as some kind of word/thought policing.
> On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 08:15, Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello all @diversity,
>>
>> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
>>
>> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
>> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
>> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
>> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
>> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation of
>> such changes.
>>
>> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache CloudStack
>> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked bellow:
>>
>> 1. [Discuss] thread:
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>> 2. [Vote] thread:
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>>
>> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides projects
>> on adopting inclusive words?
>> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
>>
>> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board Mailing
>> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
I don't think that the board would consider this a board discussion, but
would rather point either to this list, or possibly to the Community
Development list. This seems like the correct list, to me.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
@rbowen
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Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org>.
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:07 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> Very interesting. Thank you. That term is used quite a bit in the business
> world. Yet another example of speech that has entered our lexicon without
> much thought.
>
You're welcome, and thank you for being receptive to the feedback. I agree,
and I somewhat understand the pervasiveness of the term, and terms like it,
given that we're talking about terms that really only impacts about 1% of
the US population (ya know, because gen*cide). I believe that usage of the
term(s) was initially designed (like many of the laws in the US today even)
to erase or replace/assimilate the American Indian. Hopefully as we use our
voices and let people know why society should no longer be accepting of
using these terms things will change for the better.
I will seek to stop using it and add it to my slide deck as one of the ones
> that I was surprised about.
>
Thanks again for listening! It is very much appreciated.
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
Very interesting. Thank you. That term is used quite a bit in the business
world. Yet another example of speech that has entered our lexicon without
much thought.
I will seek to stop using it and add it to my slide deck as one of the ones
that I was surprised about.
On Fri, May 7, 2021, 08:58 Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 8:39 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > One minor note: we've been working on this a long time at the spam
> assassin
> > project and we found it to be very helpful to pow wow.
> >
>
> Even though the term 'pow wow' is widely acceptable in the US (and probably
> other places), it is in fact a microagression against Indigenous
> (specifically American Indian) people; it would create a more inclusive
> space if we used a different term. I would have probably ignored its use,
> but given the context (and the fact that this is a diversity list) I think
> it's an important thing to point out. You can find the reason why, and a
> few other words/phrases that have the same issue, at
>
> https://www.diversityinc.com/7-things-to-never-say-to-your-indigenous-native-american-colleagues/
>
> Thanks for reading/listening!
>
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org>.
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 8:39 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> One minor note: we've been working on this a long time at the spam assassin
> project and we found it to be very helpful to pow wow.
>
Even though the term 'pow wow' is widely acceptable in the US (and probably
other places), it is in fact a microagression against Indigenous
(specifically American Indian) people; it would create a more inclusive
space if we used a different term. I would have probably ignored its use,
but given the context (and the fact that this is a diversity list) I think
it's an important thing to point out. You can find the reason why, and a
few other words/phrases that have the same issue, at
https://www.diversityinc.com/7-things-to-never-say-to-your-indigenous-native-american-colleagues/
Thanks for reading/listening!
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
One minor note: we've been working on this a long time at the spam assassin
project and we found it to be very helpful to pow wow.
One thing I'm especially happy with is that we renamed white list and
blacklist to welcome list and block list.
This allowed us to both change our terminology to be more inclusive while
also not breaking every acronym in the world.
Hope this helps because that link for inclusive naming seemed a little
overboard when I got to binary being overtly problematic.
Regards, KAM
On Fri, May 7, 2021, 08:12 Gabriel Bräscher <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the link, Matt.
>
> Em qua., 5 de mai. de 2021 às 15:47, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
> > This reference should be useful:
> > https://inclusivenaming.org/language/evaluation-framework/
> >
> > On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 08:15, Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all @diversity,
> > >
> > > We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some
> terms.
> > >
> > > Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch
> and
> > > also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as
> "allow/deny-list".
> > > Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> > > however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to
> choose,
> > > as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation
> > of
> > > such changes.
> > >
> > > I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache
> > CloudStack
> > > project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked
> > bellow:
> > >
> > > 1. [Discuss] thread:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> > > 2. [Vote] thread:
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides
> > projects
> > > on adopting inclusive words?
> > > If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board
> > Mailing
> > > list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
> > >
> > > I appreciate any feedback.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > --
> > > Gabriel Beims Bräscher
> > > Apache CloudStack PMC Chair (CloudStack VP)
> > > The Apache Software Foundation
> > > https://www.apache.org/
> > > https://cloudstack.apache.org/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Gabriel Bräscher <ga...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for the link, Matt.
Em qua., 5 de mai. de 2021 às 15:47, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
escreveu:
> This reference should be useful:
> https://inclusivenaming.org/language/evaluation-framework/
>
> On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 08:15, Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all @diversity,
> >
> > We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
> >
> > Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
> > also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
> > Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> > however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
> > as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation
> of
> > such changes.
> >
> > I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache
> CloudStack
> > project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked
> bellow:
> >
> > 1. [Discuss] thread:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> > 2. [Vote] thread:
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> >
> > Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides
> projects
> > on adopting inclusive words?
> > If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
> >
> > I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board
> Mailing
> > list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
> >
> > I appreciate any feedback.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > --
> > Gabriel Beims Bräscher
> > Apache CloudStack PMC Chair (CloudStack VP)
> > The Apache Software Foundation
> > https://www.apache.org/
> > https://cloudstack.apache.org/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Does ASF has any criteria for inclusive words?
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
This reference should be useful:
https://inclusivenaming.org/language/evaluation-framework/
On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 08:15, Gabriel Beims Bräscher <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hello all @diversity,
>
> We have been seeing movements on projects changing the use of some terms.
>
> Some of these recent changes have been addressing the "master" branch and
> also replacing "black/white-list" for options such as "allow/deny-list".
> Recently we, at CloudStack, started to move towards the same direction;
> however, there have been some discussions regarding which name to choose,
> as well as if there is any position from the Apache Software Foundation of
> such changes.
>
> I am raising this regarding the recent discussions on the Apache CloudStack
> project on renaming the master branch. You can find the mails linked bellow:
>
> 1. [Discuss] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd7df8d0fc813c47fda6640970c3fb7c065a08fff05c42f367ae8efbc%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
> 2. [Vote] thread:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r7d7a1a7ea82bd2058e2f8634cffec75bcce585b591ee2a5709fd35d0%40%3Cdev.cloudstack.apache.org%3E
>
> Is thre any guideline or plan to create one that recommends/guides projects
> on adopting inclusive words?
> If not, how we could contribute in order to stablish one?
>
> I would also like to know if this e-mail would fit on the ASF board Mailing
> list, I thought first on bringing this to the diversity@apache.
>
> I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Best Regards,
> --
> Gabriel Beims Bräscher
> Apache CloudStack PMC Chair (CloudStack VP)
> The Apache Software Foundation
> https://www.apache.org/
> https://cloudstack.apache.org/
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