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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by dean gaudet <dg...@arctic.org> on 2000/12/31 20:18:15 UTC
http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
http://dev.apache.org/devnotes appears to be out of date...
having read the anon CVS docs i'm guessing that this is the correct thing
to do now:
cvs checkout httpd-2.0
cd httpd-2.0/srclib
cvs checkout apr
is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
why doesn't apr have a version associated with it?
oh hmm i don't have access to apr.
please to help an old apache developer out who's still got another 2500
messages in his new-httpd folder.
thanks
-dean
RE: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> First, I'd like to see a redirect from dev.apache.org to where
> ever we agree to put it for a while yet. It can be on it's own
> IP to prevent folks from actually 'using' it for anything but
> http, and then it's a permanent redirect for 6mos or so.
Sure; though given the content will probably be split up, it'll be a set
of redirects to maintain.
> The meat of the issue. I think it's outrageous to expect every mirror
> to carry every topic of interest in the ASF.
The mirror discussion is orthogonal to this one; it should take place on
mirrors@apache.org, or continue the semi-related thread from
members@apache.org.
> apache.org/project/foo
The site hierarchy discussion was happening on members@apache.org, not
new-httpd, since this isn't httpd-specific.
Back to the topic....
> What about the 'development' website? http://httpd.apache.org/dev/
> of course :-) General development info to all projects would be
> at httpd://www.apache.org/dev/ ... cross-project guidelines etc.
Yep, that's what I was thinking. There are also pages under
jakarta.apache.org that document CVS access, contributor policies, etc -
stuff that isn't project-specific.
Brian
RE: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
This goes to the current discussion of apache.org/project v.s.
project.apache.org, so it's time for my 2c.
First, I'd like to see a redirect from dev.apache.org to where
ever we agree to put it for a while yet. It can be on it's own
IP to prevent folks from actually 'using' it for anything but
http, and then it's a permanent redirect for 6mos or so.
The meat of the issue. I think it's outrageous to expect every mirror
to carry every topic of interest in the ASF. I also suppose if they
will carry us, we won't necessarily have a dedicated dns entry with
them (nor should we expect to.)
The site should be designed, imho, to be stacked as
apache.org/project/foo
as well as
httpd.apache.org/foo
but that's asking a lot, I know.
The point is, if someone will concent to host the -full- ASF on their
mirror site, mirroring all of apache.org is welcomed. If they
choose to be an asf/httpd mirror, that's great too. Then it becomes
explicit projects, or explicit branches of apache.org. Either way,
we may end up as:
www.somehost.com/mirror/asf/httpd/
We better expect it. So we aught to be able to do it ourselves.
OTOH, I see nothing wrong with ASF projects having their own subdom.
I think its good for our project to be found at;
http://httpd.apache.org/
Yes, it stresses the project over the foundation, but the foundation
is a big umbrella that will keep opening. But another consideration
is that as we grow projects too big for a single server, it's gonna
get ugly if they are all branched from the same domain. The
project.apache.org subdom is a whole lot more flexible.
What would we do, on that day, with apache.org/project? Mirror our
own projects, of course :-) apache.org could be one big httpd engine,
proxying most traffic off of httpd.apache.org so that we can use that
httpd. machine for cvs, logons, and whatever else have you.
So I suggest we stress httpd.apache.org as the working machine for
all of our work, as well as web access. But offer back for the
mirrors the apache.org/project/ hierarchy for easy of proxying.
What about the 'development' website? http://httpd.apache.org/dev/
of course :-) General development info to all projects would be
at httpd://www.apache.org/dev/ ... cross-project guidelines etc.
There, ya expect 2c, now ya owe me a buck :-)
Bill
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, dean gaudet wrote:
> http://dev.apache.org/devnotes appears to be out of date...
IMHO, dev.apache.org has outlived its usefulness; anything Apache
server-specific should be at httpd.apache.org (or apache.org/httpd when/if
we make that switch) and anything ASF project-generic should be at
www.apache.org.
> oh hmm i don't have access to apr.
Any module is available via anoncvs. APR should also be available via
cvsup or rsync.
If you're a committer with a login on apache.org, you can check out any
module, regardless of whether you're in the Unix group associated with
that module, *if* you use the -R option (read-only, set no locks, do not
log to CVSROOT/history) to CVS, e.g.
cvs -R checkout apr
> please to help an old apache developer out who's still got another 2500
> messages in his new-httpd folder.
2500? Man, that's low! I've gotten it over the last week from 26K to
9700.
Brian
RE: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> > yeah please, i'd like continued access to code i've
> > contributed to in the past :)
>
> You would be most welcome :-) But I have a question ... is it possible to
> grant the httpd group read access by default to the real repositories so we
> can avoid a bunch of nonsense? That is, if they are not members of the apr
> group? This would make it possible to have auto-checkout apr/apr-util.
Let me repeat yet again: if you want to do a local Unix checkout on
apache.org of a module other than one you are in group "avail" for, just
use the '-R' flag to cvs, e.g.
cvs -R checkout apr
...to indicate a read-only session. Or, use the CVS_RSH pserver method.
Brian
RE: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
> From: dean gaudet [mailto:dgaudet-list-new-httpd@arctic.org]
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 1:36 PM
>
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 rbb@covalent.net wrote:
>
> > > is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
> >
> > No, because the last time we used modules to do stuff like this, we had
> > all sorts of headaches
>
> huh, such as?
I think what we are looking at is the difference between checking out a
branch, v.s. what we do in apache-1.3 (and did in apache-2.0) - checking
out a branch over a branch containing deleted entries. The apache-1.3
wipe-out is bogus ... but I don't think the same problem would occur with
the new httpd-2.0 repository.
> > and as you have discovered, not all Apache
> > developers have access to apr.
>
> yuck. why not? it would seem to make sense that if folks had access to
> apr when it was part of apache-2.0 they should continue to have access to
> apr. (i understand that there's folks from other projects who now have
> access to apr who never had access to apache-2.0.)
And they do, for the asking (yes, I know you are up to mail msg -2400 and
climbing :-) It's the APR project's policy to grant nearly immediate
privilages to any Apache contributor who asks. It's also the policy to
include proven contributors to other projects, a la subversion, although
the speed at which they are granted access varies on how rigerous that
other project is in qualifing their own committers.
However, if the user isn't participating in dev@apr.apache.org, they have
no business touching the code base.
> > > why doesn't apr have a version associated with it?
> >
> > Because we currently use HEAD. As soon as we hit beta this will change,
> > but for now, the two are changing as a pair.
Actually, 2.0a8 and prior are all in the old apache-2.0 archive... you
can't get any old revisions from the current tree structure anyways.
> > > oh hmm i don't have access to apr.
> >
> > Please use the anoncvs method to get apr and apr-util. If you want access
> > to APR, we can give it to you, but it may take a few hours.
>
> yeah please, i'd like continued access to code i've
> contributed to in the past :)
You would be most welcome :-) But I have a question ... is it possible to
grant the httpd group read access by default to the real repositories so we
can avoid a bunch of nonsense? That is, if they are not members of the apr
group? This would make it possible to have auto-checkout apr/apr-util.
> i suppose that means i also want access to the documentation repositories.
> are there any other splits i haven't discovered yet?
You have that access, that group was set up as a subset.
No others as of 2100 hours GMT today.
We should probably point out here that at some point after beta 1, apr and
apr-util will start having their own release point. After that, the 'living'
version of apr/apr-util may vary from the stable tag released to all projects
(e.g. Apache, subversion, etc.) So what is today probably won't stay that
way for too long, certainly not after the release of Apache 2.0's final beta.
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 rbb@covalent.net wrote:
> Brian, please add Dean to the APR group.
Done.
Brian
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by rb...@covalent.net.
> the problem for me is that i now only contribute every N months when i get
> an afternoon that i'm otherwise not doing much on, and every N months i
> have to see what you guys have changed with just the source control
> (nevermind the code itself, that part i find way easier to grok changes to
> once i figure out how to get it). once i get through that part my spare
> time has run out. this is just the first time i'm complaining, 'cause i
> actually ran into this frustration a few months ago as well and just gave
> up that time. net progress: 0 contribution.
Hopefully, we have solved this problem now, and you can contribute
whenever you want. :-)
> really sure you missed me eh? :)
Dean, you're a real PITA sometimes, but that's usually because you're
right, and you make more work for us. :-)
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
406 29th St.
San Francisco, CA 94131
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by dean gaudet <dg...@arctic.org>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 rbb@covalent.net wrote:
>
> Brian, please add Dean to the APR group.
>
> > > > is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
> > >
> > > No, because the last time we used modules to do stuff like this, we had
> > > all sorts of headaches
> >
> > huh, such as?
>
> Try checking out apache-1.3 and then httpd-docs-1.3. The httpd-docs-1.3
> checkout should be horribly broken.
no, apache-1.3 is horribly broken, httpd-docs-1.3 looks to be fine.
% cvs -d dev.apache.org:/home/cvs checkout apache-1.3
...
cvs server: existing repository /home/cvs/apache-1.3/htdocs does not match /home/cvs/httpd-docs-1.3/htdocs
cvs server: ignoring module htdocs-1.3
% cvs -d dev.apache.org:/home/cvs checkout httpd-docs-1.3
... no error
%
that's because you guys left the /home/cvs/apache-1.3/htdocs directory.
assuming you guys copied all the RCS files from apache-1.3/htdocs to
httpd-docs-1.3/htdocs to preserve history then you can just delete
apache-1.3/htdocs.
and the best option would have been to leave the htdocs directory right
where it was, and make httpd-docs-1.3 a subdirectory of apache-1.3. which
would have let all developers with existing checked out trees continue to
function with zero knowledge of the change, and zero extra work. (this is
obviously what i would have preferred, considering i already had a tree
with changes checked out... instead i just gave up on the changes because
i ran out of time trying to figure out wtf was wrong.)
> The reason is simple. APR is a brand new project, and a good number of
> the Apache developers have never committed code to APR, and have never
> expressed interest in touching it. When we created APR, I didn't want to
> weight APR too heavily with httpd developers, because it shouldn't be just
> an httpd thing.
the problem for me is that i now only contribute every N months when i get
an afternoon that i'm otherwise not doing much on, and every N months i
have to see what you guys have changed with just the source control
(nevermind the code itself, that part i find way easier to grok changes to
once i figure out how to get it). once i get through that part my spare
time has run out. this is just the first time i'm complaining, 'cause i
actually ran into this frustration a few months ago as well and just gave
up that time. net progress: 0 contribution.
call me a whiner if you want, but reorganisations generally suck ass, and
for the most part, it's been reorganisations (of cvs, of directories, of
names, ...) which have deterred me from being interested in continuing
contribution to apache.
maybe if the anon-CVS thing just works from here on out to infinity i'll
just try that next time. (as you can see i tried the old unprivileged
developer access -- /from-cvs/... but obviously that too needed
reorganisation!)
really sure you missed me eh? :)
-dean
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by rb...@covalent.net.
Brian, please add Dean to the APR group.
> > > is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
> >
> > No, because the last time we used modules to do stuff like this, we had
> > all sorts of headaches
>
> huh, such as?
Try checking out apache-1.3 and then httpd-docs-1.3. The httpd-docs-1.3
checkout should be horribly broken.
> > and as you have discovered, not all Apache
> > developers have access to apr.
>
> yuck. why not? it would seem to make sense that if folks had access to
> apr when it was part of apache-2.0 they should continue to have access to
> apr. (i understand that there's folks from other projects who now have
> access to apr who never had access to apache-2.0.)
The reason is simple. APR is a brand new project, and a good number of
the Apache developers have never committed code to APR, and have never
expressed interest in touching it. When we created APR, I didn't want to
weight APR too heavily with httpd developers, because it shouldn't be just
an httpd thing. To try to accomplish that, I offered access to any httpd
developer who wanted it, and access to any subversion developer who wanted
it. This gave us a pretty good balance. You are now in the avail group
for APR, and as soon as you are added to the APR group, you will be able
to commit to it.
> i suppose that means i also want access to the documentation repositories.
> are there any other splits i haven't discovered yet?
You should already have access to the docs. There have been no other
splits.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
406 29th St.
San Francisco, CA 94131
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by dean gaudet <dg...@arctic.org>.
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 rbb@covalent.net wrote:
> > is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
>
> No, because the last time we used modules to do stuff like this, we had
> all sorts of headaches
huh, such as?
> and as you have discovered, not all Apache
> developers have access to apr.
yuck. why not? it would seem to make sense that if folks had access to
apr when it was part of apache-2.0 they should continue to have access to
apr. (i understand that there's folks from other projects who now have
access to apr who never had access to apache-2.0.)
> > why doesn't apr have a version associated with it?
>
> Because we currently use HEAD. As soon as we hit beta this will change,
> but for now, the two are changing as a pair.
>
> > oh hmm i don't have access to apr.
>
> Please use the anoncvs method to get apr and apr-util. If you want access
> to APR, we can give it to you, but it may take a few hours.
yeah please, i'd like continued access to code i've contributed to in the
past :)
i suppose that means i also want access to the documentation repositories.
are there any other splits i haven't discovered yet?
thanks
-dean
p.s. i suggest that for future splits that access not be restricted in
this way. i've been wanting to jump in and test some of apache-2.0 and it
sucks to have to spend a bunch of time coming up to date on the source
control rather than actually doing something useful.
Re: http://dev.apache.org/devnotes
Posted by rb...@covalent.net.
> http://dev.apache.org/devnotes appears to be out of date...
>
> having read the anon CVS docs i'm guessing that this is the correct thing
> to do now:
>
> cvs checkout httpd-2.0
> cd httpd-2.0/srclib
> cvs checkout apr
almost. Change that last line to
cvs checkout apr apr-util
> is there a module that does both of these? (if not, why not?)
No, because the last time we used modules to do stuff like this, we had
all sorts of headaches, and as you have discovered, not all Apache
developers have access to apr.
> why doesn't apr have a version associated with it?
Because we currently use HEAD. As soon as we hit beta this will change,
but for now, the two are changing as a pair.
> oh hmm i don't have access to apr.
Please use the anoncvs method to get apr and apr-util. If you want access
to APR, we can give it to you, but it may take a few hours.
BTW, I updated the anoncvs instructions, but forgot devnotes. I'll try to
update those later today.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
406 29th St.
San Francisco, CA 94131
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------