You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@tomee.apache.org by Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com> on 2016/04/01 21:51:58 UTC
Re: reworking the website?
if noone objects I'll move the new website to /ng/ next week.
Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
2016-03-24 17:59 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> up, would be great to have some feedback to know if we can move
> forward, switching the website or exposing it as a subwebsite
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>
>
> 2016-03-21 21:51 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> Hi Rafael,
>>
>> that's interesting but still needs some manual writing ;). That said
>> the organisation could be the file system one and
>> http://tomee.apache.org/examples/ could be generated easily, good
>> point.
>>
>> My main concern and why I thought starting manually was good was to
>> avoid to just "cat" all sources in a page and expose it. This doesn't
>> promote why the sample has been written so it is like not having it.
>>
>> Finally with javaeeX-samples (think the 8 is on his way) wonder if we
>> shouldn't just merge our portable examples and only keep proprietary
>> ones moving tests of other examples to our main tests.
>>
>> Any opinion on that points (rewriting them to make it obvious):
>>
>> - removing portable examples and ensuring they are in javaee-sample
>> initiative without loosing in test coverage (if that's the case)
>> - avoid to generate examples without documentation
>> - reorganize the structure to match the category (we should surely
>> rework it to have spec + proprietary features + tests + tools as
>> subparts)
>>
>>
>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>
>>
>> 2016-03-21 21:38 GMT+01:00 Rafael Pestano <rm...@gmail.com>:
>>> Hi Romain,
>>>
>>> Nice work, just two ideas about how the examples could be generated:
>>>
>>> 1 - read from the tests as hibernate user guide is doing¹. Here is the guide
>>> <https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/main/asciidoc/userguide>
>>> and the tests
>>> <https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/test/java/org/hibernate/userguide>
>>> .
>>> 2 - read from a github repo and parse sources as javaee-support² is doing.
>>> Here are the sources <https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee7-samples>
>>> and here
>>> <https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee-samples.github.io/blob/develop/_ext/asciidocify.rb>
>>> is how they are parsed.
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] http://hibernate.org/validator/documentation/getting-started/
>>> [2] http://javaee.support/
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-03-21 13:54 GMT-03:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <jl...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>
>>>> I'll have a deeper look tonight Romain.
>>>> Thanks for putting more content in there. Might be useful to see how it
>>>> renders.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hi guys,
>>>> >
>>>> > pushed some more content and GUI fixes. What about deploying it live
>>>> > on tomee.apache.org/site-ng/?
>>>> >
>>>> > Main missing part ATM is the example page but not sure how to tackle
>>>> > it. Think it should be a manual task cause anything generated either
>>>> > doesn't render well or doesn't serve the end users very well in term
>>>> > of content. Can try to start hacking few of them or if anyone wants to
>>>> > join the website hacking he is very welcomed.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 2016-03-17 19:57 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>>>> > > Tried to push current state/idea to avoid you to have to build it
>>>> > > locally: http://home.apache.org/~rmannibucau/tomeeng/#
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>> > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 2016-03-17 11:57 GMT+01:00 Robert Panzer <rp...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>> > >> Hi,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> even though not a committer I’d like to give my 2 cents on this:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Regarding a GH* based workflow:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Having provided some updates to the documentation recently I think the
>>>> > current process does not really promote contributions and collaboration.
>>>> > >> For example I did not get any notification from the CMS that my
>>>> > proposal was received and in fact it wasn’t received and I had to attach
>>>> > svn patches to Jira tickets.
>>>> > >> Nor is there any possibility for review and discussion afterwards.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> So I am strongly for a Github Pull Request-alike workflow, where
>>>> > everyone can actively search and discuss contributions.
>>>> > >> Ideally this workflow should be lightweight enough that you could
>>>> > propose an update to the documentation after as a user you discovered
>>>> > something that is not yet documented.
>>>> > >> As a supporter it would make sense to update the documentation when
>>>> you
>>>> > answered a question that was not obvious just by pasting the interesting
>>>> > parts out of your email response.
>>>> > >> Most often this is the best documentation: To the point and it solves
>>>> a
>>>> > concrete problem.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Regarding a JBake based solution:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> The current documentation is completely based on Markdown, which makes
>>>> > it kind of a lottery how the final output will look like.
>>>> > >> The update I proposed looked completely different on my machine than
>>>> > finally on the website, spaces were added to code snippets where they
>>>> don’t
>>>> > belong, links get sometimes rendered propery, sometimes not.
>>>> > >> Being a member of the AsciidoctorJ developers I certainly appreciate
>>>> > having support for Asciidoctor via JBake as well.
>>>> > >> JBake still supports Markdown and plain HTML as well.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Cheers
>>>> > >> Robert
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> * Don’t nail it down to Github, could be something else that provides
>>>> a
>>>> > similar workflow.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Am 16.03.2016 um 19:56 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>> > rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Hi guys,
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> trying to work on the website ATM, created a placeholder project on
>>>> my
>>>> > >>> github to share the idea:
>>>> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng
>>>> > >>> (mvn jbake:inline then go on http://localhost:8080).
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Idea is:
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> - get a more modern website
>>>> > >>> - restructure the doc to be more hierarchic and browsable
>>>> > >>> - get rid of the outdated doc
>>>> > >>> - make it easier to PR on github
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> If encouraged I would like to still use the CMS as storing/publishing
>>>> > >>> solution but not generation (the edit feature is broken and not that
>>>> > >>> user friendly when you are not a committer and when you are you don't
>>>> > >>> really need).
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> wdyt?
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>> > >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>> > >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> <http://www.advancedit.com.br/>Att,
>>>
>>> Rafael M. Pestano
>>>
>>> Desenvolvedor Java Cia. de Processamento de Dados do Rio Grande do Sul
>>> http://rpestano.wordpress.com/
>>> @realpestano <https://twitter.com/realpestano>
Re: reworking the website?
Posted by Alex Soto <as...@gmail.com>.
Hehehe As I said I am very bad, the truth is that I won't be able to do
anything useful :D
El dt., 5 abr. 2016 a les 9:51, Romain Manni-Bucau (<rm...@gmail.com>)
va escriure:
> here it is
> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng/blob/master/src/main/jbake/assets/css/cardio.css#L61
> ,
> feel free to play with it ;)
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>
>
> 2016-04-05 9:35 GMT+02:00 Alex Soto <as...@gmail.com>:
> > The site is awesome, I would simply change the Apache TomEE Embedded or
> > distributed to another typography/style, but well I am not a designer,
> not
> > sure how to do it exactly.
> >
> > El dt., 5 abr. 2016 a les 8:55, Romain Manni-Bucau (<
> rmannibucau@gmail.com>)
> > va escriure:
> >
> >> done
> >>
> >> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>
> >>
> >> 2016-04-01 21:51 GMT+02:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> >> > if noone objects I'll move the new website to /ng/ next week.
> >> >
> >> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 2016-03-24 17:59 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com
> >:
> >> >> up, would be great to have some feedback to know if we can move
> >> >> forward, switching the website or exposing it as a subwebsite
> >> >>
> >> >> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> >> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> 2016-03-21 21:51 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com
> >:
> >> >>> Hi Rafael,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> that's interesting but still needs some manual writing ;). That said
> >> >>> the organisation could be the file system one and
> >> >>> http://tomee.apache.org/examples/ could be generated easily, good
> >> >>> point.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> My main concern and why I thought starting manually was good was to
> >> >>> avoid to just "cat" all sources in a page and expose it. This
> doesn't
> >> >>> promote why the sample has been written so it is like not having it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Finally with javaeeX-samples (think the 8 is on his way) wonder if
> we
> >> >>> shouldn't just merge our portable examples and only keep proprietary
> >> >>> ones moving tests of other examples to our main tests.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Any opinion on that points (rewriting them to make it obvious):
> >> >>>
> >> >>> - removing portable examples and ensuring they are in javaee-sample
> >> >>> initiative without loosing in test coverage (if that's the case)
> >> >>> - avoid to generate examples without documentation
> >> >>> - reorganize the structure to match the category (we should surely
> >> >>> rework it to have spec + proprietary features + tests + tools as
> >> >>> subparts)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 2016-03-21 21:38 GMT+01:00 Rafael Pestano <rm...@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>> Hi Romain,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Nice work, just two ideas about how the examples could be
> generated:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 1 - read from the tests as hibernate user guide is doing¹. Here is
> >> the guide
> >> >>>> <
> >>
> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/main/asciidoc/userguide
> >> >
> >> >>>> and the tests
> >> >>>> <
> >>
> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/test/java/org/hibernate/userguide
> >> >
> >> >>>> .
> >> >>>> 2 - read from a github repo and parse sources as javaee-support² is
> >> doing.
> >> >>>> Here are the sources <
> >> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee7-samples>
> >> >>>> and here
> >> >>>> <
> >>
> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee-samples.github.io/blob/develop/_ext/asciidocify.rb
> >> >
> >> >>>> is how they are parsed.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [1] http://hibernate.org/validator/documentation/getting-started/
> >> >>>> [2] http://javaee.support/
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 2016-03-21 13:54 GMT-03:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <
> >> jlmonteiro@tomitribe.com>:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> I'll have a deeper look tonight Romain.
> >> >>>>> Thanks for putting more content in there. Might be useful to see
> how
> >> it
> >> >>>>> renders.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
> >> >>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
> >> >>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
> >> rmannibucau@gmail.com
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> > Hi guys,
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > pushed some more content and GUI fixes. What about deploying it
> >> live
> >> >>>>> > on tomee.apache.org/site-ng/?
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > Main missing part ATM is the example page but not sure how to
> >> tackle
> >> >>>>> > it. Think it should be a manual task cause anything generated
> >> either
> >> >>>>> > doesn't render well or doesn't serve the end users very well in
> >> term
> >> >>>>> > of content. Can try to start hacking few of them or if anyone
> >> wants to
> >> >>>>> > join the website hacking he is very welcomed.
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> >>>>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > 2016-03-17 19:57 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <
> >> rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>>> > > Tried to push current state/idea to avoid you to have to
> build it
> >> >>>>> > > locally: http://home.apache.org/~rmannibucau/tomeeng/#
> >> >>>>> > >
> >> >>>>> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> >>>>> > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >>>>> > >
> >> >>>>> > >
> >> >>>>> > > 2016-03-17 11:57 GMT+01:00 Robert Panzer <
> rpanzer@tomitribe.com
> >> >:
> >> >>>>> > >> Hi,
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> even though not a committer I’d like to give my 2 cents on
> this:
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> Regarding a GH* based workflow:
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> Having provided some updates to the documentation recently I
> >> think the
> >> >>>>> > current process does not really promote contributions and
> >> collaboration.
> >> >>>>> > >> For example I did not get any notification from the CMS that
> my
> >> >>>>> > proposal was received and in fact it wasn’t received and I had
> to
> >> attach
> >> >>>>> > svn patches to Jira tickets.
> >> >>>>> > >> Nor is there any possibility for review and discussion
> >> afterwards.
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> So I am strongly for a Github Pull Request-alike workflow,
> where
> >> >>>>> > everyone can actively search and discuss contributions.
> >> >>>>> > >> Ideally this workflow should be lightweight enough that you
> >> could
> >> >>>>> > propose an update to the documentation after as a user you
> >> discovered
> >> >>>>> > something that is not yet documented.
> >> >>>>> > >> As a supporter it would make sense to update the
> documentation
> >> when
> >> >>>>> you
> >> >>>>> > answered a question that was not obvious just by pasting the
> >> interesting
> >> >>>>> > parts out of your email response.
> >> >>>>> > >> Most often this is the best documentation: To the point and
> it
> >> solves
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> > concrete problem.
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> Regarding a JBake based solution:
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> The current documentation is completely based on Markdown,
> >> which makes
> >> >>>>> > it kind of a lottery how the final output will look like.
> >> >>>>> > >> The update I proposed looked completely different on my
> machine
> >> than
> >> >>>>> > finally on the website, spaces were added to code snippets where
> >> they
> >> >>>>> don’t
> >> >>>>> > belong, links get sometimes rendered propery, sometimes not.
> >> >>>>> > >> Being a member of the AsciidoctorJ developers I certainly
> >> appreciate
> >> >>>>> > having support for Asciidoctor via JBake as well.
> >> >>>>> > >> JBake still supports Markdown and plain HTML as well.
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> Cheers
> >> >>>>> > >> Robert
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> * Don’t nail it down to Github, could be something else that
> >> provides
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> > similar workflow.
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> > >> Am 16.03.2016 um 19:56 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> >> >>>>> > rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> Hi guys,
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> trying to work on the website ATM, created a placeholder
> >> project on
> >> >>>>> my
> >> >>>>> > >>> github to share the idea:
> >> >>>>> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng
> >> >>>>> > >>> (mvn jbake:inline then go on http://localhost:8080).
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> Idea is:
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> - get a more modern website
> >> >>>>> > >>> - restructure the doc to be more hierarchic and browsable
> >> >>>>> > >>> - get rid of the outdated doc
> >> >>>>> > >>> - make it easier to PR on github
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> If encouraged I would like to still use the CMS as
> >> storing/publishing
> >> >>>>> > >>> solution but not generation (the edit feature is broken and
> >> not that
> >> >>>>> > >>> user friendly when you are not a committer and when you are
> >> you don't
> >> >>>>> > >>> really need).
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> wdyt?
> >> >>>>> > >>>
> >> >>>>> > >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> >>>>> > >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >> >>>>> > >>
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> <http://www.advancedit.com.br/>Att,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Rafael M. Pestano
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Desenvolvedor Java Cia. de Processamento de Dados do Rio Grande do
> Sul
> >> >>>> http://rpestano.wordpress.com/
> >> >>>> @realpestano <https://twitter.com/realpestano>
> >>
>
Re: reworking the website?
Posted by Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>.
here it is https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng/blob/master/src/main/jbake/assets/css/cardio.css#L61,
feel free to play with it ;)
Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
2016-04-05 9:35 GMT+02:00 Alex Soto <as...@gmail.com>:
> The site is awesome, I would simply change the Apache TomEE Embedded or
> distributed to another typography/style, but well I am not a designer, not
> sure how to do it exactly.
>
> El dt., 5 abr. 2016 a les 8:55, Romain Manni-Bucau (<rm...@gmail.com>)
> va escriure:
>
>> done
>>
>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>
>>
>> 2016-04-01 21:51 GMT+02:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> > if noone objects I'll move the new website to /ng/ next week.
>> >
>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-03-24 17:59 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> >> up, would be great to have some feedback to know if we can move
>> >> forward, switching the website or exposing it as a subwebsite
>> >>
>> >> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2016-03-21 21:51 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> >>> Hi Rafael,
>> >>>
>> >>> that's interesting but still needs some manual writing ;). That said
>> >>> the organisation could be the file system one and
>> >>> http://tomee.apache.org/examples/ could be generated easily, good
>> >>> point.
>> >>>
>> >>> My main concern and why I thought starting manually was good was to
>> >>> avoid to just "cat" all sources in a page and expose it. This doesn't
>> >>> promote why the sample has been written so it is like not having it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Finally with javaeeX-samples (think the 8 is on his way) wonder if we
>> >>> shouldn't just merge our portable examples and only keep proprietary
>> >>> ones moving tests of other examples to our main tests.
>> >>>
>> >>> Any opinion on that points (rewriting them to make it obvious):
>> >>>
>> >>> - removing portable examples and ensuring they are in javaee-sample
>> >>> initiative without loosing in test coverage (if that's the case)
>> >>> - avoid to generate examples without documentation
>> >>> - reorganize the structure to match the category (we should surely
>> >>> rework it to have spec + proprietary features + tests + tools as
>> >>> subparts)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> 2016-03-21 21:38 GMT+01:00 Rafael Pestano <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> >>>> Hi Romain,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nice work, just two ideas about how the examples could be generated:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1 - read from the tests as hibernate user guide is doing¹. Here is
>> the guide
>> >>>> <
>> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/main/asciidoc/userguide
>> >
>> >>>> and the tests
>> >>>> <
>> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/test/java/org/hibernate/userguide
>> >
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> 2 - read from a github repo and parse sources as javaee-support² is
>> doing.
>> >>>> Here are the sources <
>> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee7-samples>
>> >>>> and here
>> >>>> <
>> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee-samples.github.io/blob/develop/_ext/asciidocify.rb
>> >
>> >>>> is how they are parsed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [1] http://hibernate.org/validator/documentation/getting-started/
>> >>>> [2] http://javaee.support/
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2016-03-21 13:54 GMT-03:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <
>> jlmonteiro@tomitribe.com>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I'll have a deeper look tonight Romain.
>> >>>>> Thanks for putting more content in there. Might be useful to see how
>> it
>> >>>>> renders.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>> >>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>> >>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
>> rmannibucau@gmail.com
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > Hi guys,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > pushed some more content and GUI fixes. What about deploying it
>> live
>> >>>>> > on tomee.apache.org/site-ng/?
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Main missing part ATM is the example page but not sure how to
>> tackle
>> >>>>> > it. Think it should be a manual task cause anything generated
>> either
>> >>>>> > doesn't render well or doesn't serve the end users very well in
>> term
>> >>>>> > of content. Can try to start hacking few of them or if anyone
>> wants to
>> >>>>> > join the website hacking he is very welcomed.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >>>>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > 2016-03-17 19:57 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <
>> rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
>> >>>>> > > Tried to push current state/idea to avoid you to have to build it
>> >>>>> > > locally: http://home.apache.org/~rmannibucau/tomeeng/#
>> >>>>> > >
>> >>>>> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >>>>> > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >>>>> > >
>> >>>>> > >
>> >>>>> > > 2016-03-17 11:57 GMT+01:00 Robert Panzer <rpanzer@tomitribe.com
>> >:
>> >>>>> > >> Hi,
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> even though not a committer I’d like to give my 2 cents on this:
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> Regarding a GH* based workflow:
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> Having provided some updates to the documentation recently I
>> think the
>> >>>>> > current process does not really promote contributions and
>> collaboration.
>> >>>>> > >> For example I did not get any notification from the CMS that my
>> >>>>> > proposal was received and in fact it wasn’t received and I had to
>> attach
>> >>>>> > svn patches to Jira tickets.
>> >>>>> > >> Nor is there any possibility for review and discussion
>> afterwards.
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> So I am strongly for a Github Pull Request-alike workflow, where
>> >>>>> > everyone can actively search and discuss contributions.
>> >>>>> > >> Ideally this workflow should be lightweight enough that you
>> could
>> >>>>> > propose an update to the documentation after as a user you
>> discovered
>> >>>>> > something that is not yet documented.
>> >>>>> > >> As a supporter it would make sense to update the documentation
>> when
>> >>>>> you
>> >>>>> > answered a question that was not obvious just by pasting the
>> interesting
>> >>>>> > parts out of your email response.
>> >>>>> > >> Most often this is the best documentation: To the point and it
>> solves
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> > concrete problem.
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> Regarding a JBake based solution:
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> The current documentation is completely based on Markdown,
>> which makes
>> >>>>> > it kind of a lottery how the final output will look like.
>> >>>>> > >> The update I proposed looked completely different on my machine
>> than
>> >>>>> > finally on the website, spaces were added to code snippets where
>> they
>> >>>>> don’t
>> >>>>> > belong, links get sometimes rendered propery, sometimes not.
>> >>>>> > >> Being a member of the AsciidoctorJ developers I certainly
>> appreciate
>> >>>>> > having support for Asciidoctor via JBake as well.
>> >>>>> > >> JBake still supports Markdown and plain HTML as well.
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> Cheers
>> >>>>> > >> Robert
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> * Don’t nail it down to Github, could be something else that
>> provides
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> > similar workflow.
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> > >> Am 16.03.2016 um 19:56 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
>> >>>>> > rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> Hi guys,
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> trying to work on the website ATM, created a placeholder
>> project on
>> >>>>> my
>> >>>>> > >>> github to share the idea:
>> >>>>> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng
>> >>>>> > >>> (mvn jbake:inline then go on http://localhost:8080).
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> Idea is:
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> - get a more modern website
>> >>>>> > >>> - restructure the doc to be more hierarchic and browsable
>> >>>>> > >>> - get rid of the outdated doc
>> >>>>> > >>> - make it easier to PR on github
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> If encouraged I would like to still use the CMS as
>> storing/publishing
>> >>>>> > >>> solution but not generation (the edit feature is broken and
>> not that
>> >>>>> > >>> user friendly when you are not a committer and when you are
>> you don't
>> >>>>> > >>> really need).
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> wdyt?
>> >>>>> > >>>
>> >>>>> > >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >>>>> > >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>> >>>>> > >>
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> <http://www.advancedit.com.br/>Att,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rafael M. Pestano
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Desenvolvedor Java Cia. de Processamento de Dados do Rio Grande do Sul
>> >>>> http://rpestano.wordpress.com/
>> >>>> @realpestano <https://twitter.com/realpestano>
>>
Re: reworking the website?
Posted by Alex Soto <as...@gmail.com>.
The site is awesome, I would simply change the Apache TomEE Embedded or
distributed to another typography/style, but well I am not a designer, not
sure how to do it exactly.
El dt., 5 abr. 2016 a les 8:55, Romain Manni-Bucau (<rm...@gmail.com>)
va escriure:
> done
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>
>
> 2016-04-01 21:51 GMT+02:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> > if noone objects I'll move the new website to /ng/ next week.
> >
> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >
> >
> > 2016-03-24 17:59 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> >> up, would be great to have some feedback to know if we can move
> >> forward, switching the website or exposing it as a subwebsite
> >>
> >> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>
> >>
> >> 2016-03-21 21:51 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> >>> Hi Rafael,
> >>>
> >>> that's interesting but still needs some manual writing ;). That said
> >>> the organisation could be the file system one and
> >>> http://tomee.apache.org/examples/ could be generated easily, good
> >>> point.
> >>>
> >>> My main concern and why I thought starting manually was good was to
> >>> avoid to just "cat" all sources in a page and expose it. This doesn't
> >>> promote why the sample has been written so it is like not having it.
> >>>
> >>> Finally with javaeeX-samples (think the 8 is on his way) wonder if we
> >>> shouldn't just merge our portable examples and only keep proprietary
> >>> ones moving tests of other examples to our main tests.
> >>>
> >>> Any opinion on that points (rewriting them to make it obvious):
> >>>
> >>> - removing portable examples and ensuring they are in javaee-sample
> >>> initiative without loosing in test coverage (if that's the case)
> >>> - avoid to generate examples without documentation
> >>> - reorganize the structure to match the category (we should surely
> >>> rework it to have spec + proprietary features + tests + tools as
> >>> subparts)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2016-03-21 21:38 GMT+01:00 Rafael Pestano <rm...@gmail.com>:
> >>>> Hi Romain,
> >>>>
> >>>> Nice work, just two ideas about how the examples could be generated:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1 - read from the tests as hibernate user guide is doing¹. Here is
> the guide
> >>>> <
> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/main/asciidoc/userguide
> >
> >>>> and the tests
> >>>> <
> https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/test/java/org/hibernate/userguide
> >
> >>>> .
> >>>> 2 - read from a github repo and parse sources as javaee-support² is
> doing.
> >>>> Here are the sources <
> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee7-samples>
> >>>> and here
> >>>> <
> https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee-samples.github.io/blob/develop/_ext/asciidocify.rb
> >
> >>>> is how they are parsed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] http://hibernate.org/validator/documentation/getting-started/
> >>>> [2] http://javaee.support/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2016-03-21 13:54 GMT-03:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <
> jlmonteiro@tomitribe.com>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'll have a deeper look tonight Romain.
> >>>>> Thanks for putting more content in there. Might be useful to see how
> it
> >>>>> renders.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
> >>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
> >>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
> rmannibucau@gmail.com
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Hi guys,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > pushed some more content and GUI fixes. What about deploying it
> live
> >>>>> > on tomee.apache.org/site-ng/?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Main missing part ATM is the example page but not sure how to
> tackle
> >>>>> > it. Think it should be a manual task cause anything generated
> either
> >>>>> > doesn't render well or doesn't serve the end users very well in
> term
> >>>>> > of content. Can try to start hacking few of them or if anyone
> wants to
> >>>>> > join the website hacking he is very welcomed.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > 2016-03-17 19:57 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <
> rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
> >>>>> > > Tried to push current state/idea to avoid you to have to build it
> >>>>> > > locally: http://home.apache.org/~rmannibucau/tomeeng/#
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>>> > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > 2016-03-17 11:57 GMT+01:00 Robert Panzer <rpanzer@tomitribe.com
> >:
> >>>>> > >> Hi,
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> even though not a committer I’d like to give my 2 cents on this:
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> Regarding a GH* based workflow:
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> Having provided some updates to the documentation recently I
> think the
> >>>>> > current process does not really promote contributions and
> collaboration.
> >>>>> > >> For example I did not get any notification from the CMS that my
> >>>>> > proposal was received and in fact it wasn’t received and I had to
> attach
> >>>>> > svn patches to Jira tickets.
> >>>>> > >> Nor is there any possibility for review and discussion
> afterwards.
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> So I am strongly for a Github Pull Request-alike workflow, where
> >>>>> > everyone can actively search and discuss contributions.
> >>>>> > >> Ideally this workflow should be lightweight enough that you
> could
> >>>>> > propose an update to the documentation after as a user you
> discovered
> >>>>> > something that is not yet documented.
> >>>>> > >> As a supporter it would make sense to update the documentation
> when
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> > answered a question that was not obvious just by pasting the
> interesting
> >>>>> > parts out of your email response.
> >>>>> > >> Most often this is the best documentation: To the point and it
> solves
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> > concrete problem.
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> Regarding a JBake based solution:
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> The current documentation is completely based on Markdown,
> which makes
> >>>>> > it kind of a lottery how the final output will look like.
> >>>>> > >> The update I proposed looked completely different on my machine
> than
> >>>>> > finally on the website, spaces were added to code snippets where
> they
> >>>>> don’t
> >>>>> > belong, links get sometimes rendered propery, sometimes not.
> >>>>> > >> Being a member of the AsciidoctorJ developers I certainly
> appreciate
> >>>>> > having support for Asciidoctor via JBake as well.
> >>>>> > >> JBake still supports Markdown and plain HTML as well.
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> Cheers
> >>>>> > >> Robert
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> * Don’t nail it down to Github, could be something else that
> provides
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> > similar workflow.
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> > >> Am 16.03.2016 um 19:56 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> >>>>> > rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> Hi guys,
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> trying to work on the website ATM, created a placeholder
> project on
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> > >>> github to share the idea:
> >>>>> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng
> >>>>> > >>> (mvn jbake:inline then go on http://localhost:8080).
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> Idea is:
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> - get a more modern website
> >>>>> > >>> - restructure the doc to be more hierarchic and browsable
> >>>>> > >>> - get rid of the outdated doc
> >>>>> > >>> - make it easier to PR on github
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> If encouraged I would like to still use the CMS as
> storing/publishing
> >>>>> > >>> solution but not generation (the edit feature is broken and
> not that
> >>>>> > >>> user friendly when you are not a committer and when you are
> you don't
> >>>>> > >>> really need).
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> wdyt?
> >>>>> > >>>
> >>>>> > >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>>> > >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> >>>>> > >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <http://www.advancedit.com.br/>Att,
> >>>>
> >>>> Rafael M. Pestano
> >>>>
> >>>> Desenvolvedor Java Cia. de Processamento de Dados do Rio Grande do Sul
> >>>> http://rpestano.wordpress.com/
> >>>> @realpestano <https://twitter.com/realpestano>
>
Re: reworking the website?
Posted by Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>.
done
Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
2016-04-01 21:51 GMT+02:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
> if noone objects I'll move the new website to /ng/ next week.
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>
>
> 2016-03-24 17:59 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>> up, would be great to have some feedback to know if we can move
>> forward, switching the website or exposing it as a subwebsite
>>
>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>
>>
>> 2016-03-21 21:51 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>>> Hi Rafael,
>>>
>>> that's interesting but still needs some manual writing ;). That said
>>> the organisation could be the file system one and
>>> http://tomee.apache.org/examples/ could be generated easily, good
>>> point.
>>>
>>> My main concern and why I thought starting manually was good was to
>>> avoid to just "cat" all sources in a page and expose it. This doesn't
>>> promote why the sample has been written so it is like not having it.
>>>
>>> Finally with javaeeX-samples (think the 8 is on his way) wonder if we
>>> shouldn't just merge our portable examples and only keep proprietary
>>> ones moving tests of other examples to our main tests.
>>>
>>> Any opinion on that points (rewriting them to make it obvious):
>>>
>>> - removing portable examples and ensuring they are in javaee-sample
>>> initiative without loosing in test coverage (if that's the case)
>>> - avoid to generate examples without documentation
>>> - reorganize the structure to match the category (we should surely
>>> rework it to have spec + proprietary features + tests + tools as
>>> subparts)
>>>
>>>
>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-03-21 21:38 GMT+01:00 Rafael Pestano <rm...@gmail.com>:
>>>> Hi Romain,
>>>>
>>>> Nice work, just two ideas about how the examples could be generated:
>>>>
>>>> 1 - read from the tests as hibernate user guide is doing¹. Here is the guide
>>>> <https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/main/asciidoc/userguide>
>>>> and the tests
>>>> <https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/tree/master/documentation/src/test/java/org/hibernate/userguide>
>>>> .
>>>> 2 - read from a github repo and parse sources as javaee-support² is doing.
>>>> Here are the sources <https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee7-samples>
>>>> and here
>>>> <https://github.com/javaee-samples/javaee-samples.github.io/blob/develop/_ext/asciidocify.rb>
>>>> is how they are parsed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://hibernate.org/validator/documentation/getting-started/
>>>> [2] http://javaee.support/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-03-21 13:54 GMT-03:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <jl...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> I'll have a deeper look tonight Romain.
>>>>> Thanks for putting more content in there. Might be useful to see how it
>>>>> renders.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi guys,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > pushed some more content and GUI fixes. What about deploying it live
>>>>> > on tomee.apache.org/site-ng/?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Main missing part ATM is the example page but not sure how to tackle
>>>>> > it. Think it should be a manual task cause anything generated either
>>>>> > doesn't render well or doesn't serve the end users very well in term
>>>>> > of content. Can try to start hacking few of them or if anyone wants to
>>>>> > join the website hacking he is very welcomed.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>> > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 2016-03-17 19:57 GMT+01:00 Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>:
>>>>> > > Tried to push current state/idea to avoid you to have to build it
>>>>> > > locally: http://home.apache.org/~rmannibucau/tomeeng/#
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>> > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > 2016-03-17 11:57 GMT+01:00 Robert Panzer <rp...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>>> > >> Hi,
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> even though not a committer I’d like to give my 2 cents on this:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Regarding a GH* based workflow:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Having provided some updates to the documentation recently I think the
>>>>> > current process does not really promote contributions and collaboration.
>>>>> > >> For example I did not get any notification from the CMS that my
>>>>> > proposal was received and in fact it wasn’t received and I had to attach
>>>>> > svn patches to Jira tickets.
>>>>> > >> Nor is there any possibility for review and discussion afterwards.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> So I am strongly for a Github Pull Request-alike workflow, where
>>>>> > everyone can actively search and discuss contributions.
>>>>> > >> Ideally this workflow should be lightweight enough that you could
>>>>> > propose an update to the documentation after as a user you discovered
>>>>> > something that is not yet documented.
>>>>> > >> As a supporter it would make sense to update the documentation when
>>>>> you
>>>>> > answered a question that was not obvious just by pasting the interesting
>>>>> > parts out of your email response.
>>>>> > >> Most often this is the best documentation: To the point and it solves
>>>>> a
>>>>> > concrete problem.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Regarding a JBake based solution:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> The current documentation is completely based on Markdown, which makes
>>>>> > it kind of a lottery how the final output will look like.
>>>>> > >> The update I proposed looked completely different on my machine than
>>>>> > finally on the website, spaces were added to code snippets where they
>>>>> don’t
>>>>> > belong, links get sometimes rendered propery, sometimes not.
>>>>> > >> Being a member of the AsciidoctorJ developers I certainly appreciate
>>>>> > having support for Asciidoctor via JBake as well.
>>>>> > >> JBake still supports Markdown and plain HTML as well.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Cheers
>>>>> > >> Robert
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> * Don’t nail it down to Github, could be something else that provides
>>>>> a
>>>>> > similar workflow.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Am 16.03.2016 um 19:56 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>>> > rmannibucau@gmail.com>:
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Hi guys,
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> trying to work on the website ATM, created a placeholder project on
>>>>> my
>>>>> > >>> github to share the idea:
>>>>> https://github.com/rmannibucau/site-tomee-ng
>>>>> > >>> (mvn jbake:inline then go on http://localhost:8080).
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Idea is:
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> - get a more modern website
>>>>> > >>> - restructure the doc to be more hierarchic and browsable
>>>>> > >>> - get rid of the outdated doc
>>>>> > >>> - make it easier to PR on github
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> If encouraged I would like to still use the CMS as storing/publishing
>>>>> > >>> solution but not generation (the edit feature is broken and not that
>>>>> > >>> user friendly when you are not a committer and when you are you don't
>>>>> > >>> really need).
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> wdyt?
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>> > >>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <http://www.advancedit.com.br/>Att,
>>>>
>>>> Rafael M. Pestano
>>>>
>>>> Desenvolvedor Java Cia. de Processamento de Dados do Rio Grande do Sul
>>>> http://rpestano.wordpress.com/
>>>> @realpestano <https://twitter.com/realpestano>