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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org> on 2014/12/18 13:29:00 UTC

Commons RDF

Hi all,

Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've started
some steps towards commons RDF.

The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling the
W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have been
providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in several
EU research project and by the Dutch government.

As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
interested in this API without being interested in the rest of Clerezza it
would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also need
some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
alignment with other API proposal.

I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
creating commons RDF.

What I've done so far;
- Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
- Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
- Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]

I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.

Cheers,
Reto


1.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Reto Gmür <re...@wymiwyg.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> 2014-12-18 14:10 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
>> >
>> > Hi Benedikt,
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hello Reto,
>> > >
>> > > 2014-12-18 13:29 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi all,
>> > > >
>> > > > Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've
>> > started
>> > > > some steps towards commons RDF.
>> > > >
>> > > > The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling
>> > the
>> > > > W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have
>> been
>> > > > providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in
>> > > several
>> > > > EU research project and by the Dutch government.
>> > > >
>> > > > As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
>> > > > interested in this API without being interested in the rest of
>> Clerezza
>> > > it
>> > > > would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also
>> > need
>> > > > some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
>> > > > alignment with other API proposal.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
>> > > > creating commons RDF.
>> > > >
>> > > > What I've done so far;
>> > > > - Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
>> > > > - Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
>> > > > - Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]
>> > > >
>> > > > I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > *copy pasting my answer from the other thread*
>> > >
>> > > We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
>> > > related to this proposal? In the end the people around
>> > > https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their
>> > code
>> > > to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development
>> and
>> > > discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository
>> from
>> > > infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF
>> library
>> > to
>> > > commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with
>> > bootstraping
>> > > the component and bring up a website.
>> > >
>> > > That's great, your help is very welcome. Good to know there's already
>> a
>> > git project, I'll move the code over. Another issue is the creation of a
>> > JIRA project.
>> >
>>
>> Hello Reto,
>>
>> usually projects at commons start in the sandbox. We don't create JIRA
>> projects for sandbox components, but instead use the SANDBOX project in
>> jira [1]. I've created a new component for the project called "RDF" which
>> you can use for RDF. When a commons component is promoted to proper we
>> create an individual Jira project (this usually happens when we release
>> version 1.0).
>>
>> Benedikt
>>
>> Hi Benedikt,
>
> Thanks, I'll create issues there.
>
> I just wanted to push to git and it complains that my password is invalid.
> ...but the same password worked with svn and on clerezza. has this repo
> been opened already?
>

After resetting password it no longer complains about that, but gives a
clearer message:

Password for 'https://reto@git-wip-us.apache.org':
...
remote: You are not authorized to edit this repository.
remote:
To https://reto@git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/commons-rdf.git
 ! [remote rejected] master -> master (pre-receive hook declined)
error: failed to push some refs to '
https://reto@git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/commons-rdf.git

Cheers,
Reto



>
> Cheers,
> Reto
>
>
>
>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDBOX
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Reto
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Regrads,
>> > > Benedikt
>> > >
>> > > [1] http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw
>> > > [2] http://git.apache.org/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Cheers,
>> > > > Reto
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 1.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> > > > 2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > http://people.apache.org/~britter/
>> > > http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
>> > > http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
>> > > http://github.com/britter
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://people.apache.org/~britter/
>> http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
>> http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
>> http://github.com/britter
>>
>

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Reto Gmür <re...@wymiwyg.com>.
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> 2014-12-18 14:10 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
> >
> > Hi Benedikt,
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Reto,
> > >
> > > 2014-12-18 13:29 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've
> > started
> > > > some steps towards commons RDF.
> > > >
> > > > The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling
> > the
> > > > W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have been
> > > > providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in
> > > several
> > > > EU research project and by the Dutch government.
> > > >
> > > > As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
> > > > interested in this API without being interested in the rest of
> Clerezza
> > > it
> > > > would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also
> > need
> > > > some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
> > > > alignment with other API proposal.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
> > > > creating commons RDF.
> > > >
> > > > What I've done so far;
> > > > - Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
> > > > - Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
> > > > - Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]
> > > >
> > > > I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.
> > > >
> > >
> > > *copy pasting my answer from the other thread*
> > >
> > > We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
> > > related to this proposal? In the end the people around
> > > https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their
> > code
> > > to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development
> and
> > > discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
> > > infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF
> library
> > to
> > > commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with
> > bootstraping
> > > the component and bring up a website.
> > >
> > > That's great, your help is very welcome. Good to know there's already a
> > git project, I'll move the code over. Another issue is the creation of a
> > JIRA project.
> >
>
> Hello Reto,
>
> usually projects at commons start in the sandbox. We don't create JIRA
> projects for sandbox components, but instead use the SANDBOX project in
> jira [1]. I've created a new component for the project called "RDF" which
> you can use for RDF. When a commons component is promoted to proper we
> create an individual Jira project (this usually happens when we release
> version 1.0).
>
> Benedikt
>
> Hi Benedikt,

Thanks, I'll create issues there.

I just wanted to push to git and it complains that my password is invalid.
...but the same password worked with svn and on clerezza. has this repo
been opened already?

Cheers,
Reto



> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDBOX
>
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Reto
> >
> >
> >
> > > Regrads,
> > > Benedikt
> > >
> > > [1] http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw
> > > [2] http://git.apache.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Reto
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > 2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> > > http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> > > http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> > > http://github.com/britter
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> http://github.com/britter
>

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>.
2014-12-18 14:10 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
>
> Hi Benedikt,
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Reto,
> >
> > 2014-12-18 13:29 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've
> started
> > > some steps towards commons RDF.
> > >
> > > The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling
> the
> > > W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have been
> > > providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in
> > several
> > > EU research project and by the Dutch government.
> > >
> > > As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
> > > interested in this API without being interested in the rest of Clerezza
> > it
> > > would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also
> need
> > > some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
> > > alignment with other API proposal.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
> > > creating commons RDF.
> > >
> > > What I've done so far;
> > > - Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
> > > - Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
> > > - Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]
> > >
> > > I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.
> > >
> >
> > *copy pasting my answer from the other thread*
> >
> > We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
> > related to this proposal? In the end the people around
> > https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their
> code
> > to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
> > discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
> > infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library
> to
> > commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with
> bootstraping
> > the component and bring up a website.
> >
> > That's great, your help is very welcome. Good to know there's already a
> git project, I'll move the code over. Another issue is the creation of a
> JIRA project.
>

Hello Reto,

usually projects at commons start in the sandbox. We don't create JIRA
projects for sandbox components, but instead use the SANDBOX project in
jira [1]. I've created a new component for the project called "RDF" which
you can use for RDF. When a commons component is promoted to proper we
create an individual Jira project (this usually happens when we release
version 1.0).

Benedikt

[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SANDBOX


>
> Cheers,
> Reto
>
>
>
> > Regrads,
> > Benedikt
> >
> > [1] http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw
> > [2] http://git.apache.org/
> >
> >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Reto
> > >
> > >
> > > 1.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > 2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> > http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> > http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> > http://github.com/britter
> >
>


-- 
http://people.apache.org/~britter/
http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
http://github.com/britter

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>.
Hi Benedikt,

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>
wrote:
>
> Hello Reto,
>
> 2014-12-18 13:29 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've started
> > some steps towards commons RDF.
> >
> > The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling the
> > W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have been
> > providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in
> several
> > EU research project and by the Dutch government.
> >
> > As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
> > interested in this API without being interested in the rest of Clerezza
> it
> > would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also need
> > some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
> > alignment with other API proposal.
> >
> > I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
> > creating commons RDF.
> >
> > What I've done so far;
> > - Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
> > - Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
> > - Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]
> >
> > I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.
> >
>
> *copy pasting my answer from the other thread*
>
> We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
> related to this proposal? In the end the people around
> https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their code
> to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
> discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
> infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library to
> commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with bootstraping
> the component and bring up a website.
>
> That's great, your help is very welcome. Good to know there's already a
git project, I'll move the code over. Another issue is the creation of a
JIRA project.

Cheers,
Reto



> Regrads,
> Benedikt
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw
> [2] http://git.apache.org/
>
>
> > Cheers,
> > Reto
> >
> >
> > 1.
> >
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > 2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/
> >
>
>
> --
> http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> http://github.com/britter
>

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 19/12/14 14:31, Reto Gmür wrote:
> Clerezza is not meant as a wrapper to integrate these
> toolkits but since the beginning the purpose was to provide a generic API
> solely based on the RDF standards, integrating well into the Java platform.

> The APIs of Jena and Sesame are specifically designed for triple stores.

Good - let's recognize that different APIs can serve different purposes. 
  That includes Clerezza.

> While triple stores are the standard databases for RDF databases other data
> can also be exposed as RDF. In the generic case a mapping to the Jena or
> Sesame model is not possible without memory expensive work-arounds.

I don't understand that point - could you expand on it?  Let's get concrete.

> Also
> because of this ties to tripe stores some of the RDF features are not
> possible (at least not easily) with these APIs.

Interesting claim - could you explain it?  Links would be good.  Let's 
ground discussion in the spec text we are all claiming to adhere to. [*]

>
> I developed the first version of such an API in 2006 when working
> with the Jena team at HP on a Graph Versioning System. The current Clerezza
> API is however substantially different from this with the contributions of
> many developers.

You will be pleased to know that HP granted IP rights of GVS, and 
derived works, to ASF as part of the Jena software grant.  It had not 
been done before.

>> The idea of Commons RDF as we conceived was to design together with those
>> toolkits a generic API that new versions could implement and focus on
>> implementing portable algorithms with a choice of storage. And that's
>> basically the current scope of Commons RDF as I know it.
>>
>
> That's pretty much the goal of the Clerezza RDF library too. And I can show
> you usecases where the current version of your API doesn't fulfill this
> purpose.

Please show the use cases.

> As for the project on github I've never seen any
> discussion about this on the various semantic web related mailing lists at
> apache.

http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201406.mbox/%3C5398B07C.5000507%40apache.org%3E

This is not an Apache-only endeavour.

	Andy

[*] Disclose the the wider audience: I was active on the RDF 1.1 working 
group, contributing to various of the W3C specs.

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>.
Hi Sergio

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 18/12/14 13:43, Benedikt Ritter wrote:
>
>> We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
>> related to this proposal? In the end the people around
>> https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their
>> code
>> to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
>> discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
>> infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library
>> to
>> commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with bootstraping
>> the component and bring up a website.
>>
>
> as part of that initiative, I'd like to assert my opinion here. That we
> did not accommodate as project in Apache Commons is just accessory and not
> so important.
>
> Andy already reply to COMMONSSITE-80,but I think this is a better place
> for such discussion.
>
> Because probably many of the folks here are not so familiar with RDF, I'd
> like to introduce (my version of) the story: RDF is a directed labeled
> graph proposed by W3C as base data model for the Semantic Web. In the Java
> world there are historically two major toolkits (Apache Jena and OpenRDF
> Sesame) that with different approaches provide a RDF stack. Therefore there
> are many wrappers trying to 'integrate' both implementations, Apache
> Clerezza is one, but there are others.


That's not true. Clerezza is not meant as a wrapper to integrate these
toolkits but since the beginning the purpose was to provide a generic API
solely based on the RDF standards, integrating well into the Java platform.
The APIs of Jena and Sesame are specifically designed for triple stores.
While triple stores are the standard databases for RDF databases other data
can also be exposed as RDF. In the generic case a mapping to the Jena or
Sesame model is not possible without memory expensive work-arounds. Also
because of this ties to tripe stores some of the RDF features are not
possible (at least not easily) with these APIs.

Another aspect the Clerezza model empathizes is the identity criteria for
the types. While mutable graph objects are only equals when they are the
same instance or backed by the same graph in the triplestore (so hat they
contain the same triples at any point in time) immutable graphs are equals
if they are isomorphic. This is important for example when adding graphs to
a set. I developed the first version of such an API in 2006 when working
with the Jena team at HP on a Graph Versioning System. The current Clerezza
API is however substantially different from this with the contributions of
many developers.


>
> The idea of Commons RDF as we conceived was to design together with those
> toolkits a generic API that new versions could implement and focus on
> implementing portable algorithms with a choice of storage. And that's
> basically the current scope of Commons RDF as I know it.
>

That's pretty much the goal of the Clerezza RDF library too. And I can show
you usecases where the current version of your API doesn't fulfill this
purpose.


>
> Therefore adopting Clerezza as a yet-another library does really bring any
> value to Apache Commons.


What I wanted to push yesterday to git and found out that I can't push is a
subset of Clerezza rdf-core adapted to much the rdf-commons on Github as
close as possible (that it, while staying with Java best practices and not
introducing artifacts that make it less general purpose).


> Besides there are many aspects (blank nodes, etc) why I would never
> consider Clerezza as a generic RDF API, but that's another story.
>

Bring forward your concerns, we had many discussions around the Clerezza
RDF API and its likely that what makes you skeptic has been discussed and
answered before. As for the project on github I've never seen any
discussion about this on the various semantic web related mailing lists at
apache.


>
> FMPOV the decision of Apache Commons to grants write access to all ASF
> committers should not be used as way out of dying projects.
>

No, I don't think that's fair. Clerezza is an Apache project which has
never been sponsored by a large company or research institution so clerezza
is driven mainly by volunteers who use their spare time to write beautiful
code. I don't think you are in a position to diagnose clerezza as "dying
project" (for instance we are having an active mailing list and the
proposal to publish the RDF API as commons found 4 spontaneous +1 within
one day).


> But that's my personal opinion. I hope it would be taken into
> consideration.
>

Rather than about accusations I would like to talk about APIs, not is some
private circles but at Apache. Following the mantra "If it wasn't on the
mailing list it didn't happen". As I first step I wanted to push a draft
merging the core of clerezza with your proposals om github, not as
something final, but as a basis for discussion.

Reto


>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Sergio Fernández
> Partner Technology Manager
> Redlink GmbH
> m: +43 660 2747 925
> e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
> w: http://redlink.co
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@commons.apache.org
>
>

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>.
Hi Sergio

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 18/12/14 13:43, Benedikt Ritter wrote:
>
>> We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
>> related to this proposal? In the end the people around
>> https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their
>> code
>> to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
>> discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
>> infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library
>> to
>> commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with bootstraping
>> the component and bring up a website.
>>
>
> as part of that initiative, I'd like to assert my opinion here. That we
> did not accommodate as project in Apache Commons is just accessory and not
> so important.
>
> Andy already reply to COMMONSSITE-80,but I think this is a better place
> for such discussion.
>
> Because probably many of the folks here are not so familiar with RDF, I'd
> like to introduce (my version of) the story: RDF is a directed labeled
> graph proposed by W3C as base data model for the Semantic Web. In the Java
> world there are historically two major toolkits (Apache Jena and OpenRDF
> Sesame) that with different approaches provide a RDF stack. Therefore there
> are many wrappers trying to 'integrate' both implementations, Apache
> Clerezza is one, but there are others.


That's not true. Clerezza is not meant as a wrapper to integrate these
toolkits but since the beginning the purpose was to provide a generic API
solely based on the RDF standards, integrating well into the Java platform.
The APIs of Jena and Sesame are specifically designed for triple stores.
While triple stores are the standard databases for RDF databases other data
can also be exposed as RDF. In the generic case a mapping to the Jena or
Sesame model is not possible without memory expensive work-arounds. Also
because of this ties to tripe stores some of the RDF features are not
possible (at least not easily) with these APIs.

Another aspect the Clerezza model empathizes is the identity criteria for
the types. While mutable graph objects are only equals when they are the
same instance or backed by the same graph in the triplestore (so hat they
contain the same triples at any point in time) immutable graphs are equals
if they are isomorphic. This is important for example when adding graphs to
a set. I developed the first version of such an API in 2006 when working
with the Jena team at HP on a Graph Versioning System. The current Clerezza
API is however substantially different from this with the contributions of
many developers.


>
> The idea of Commons RDF as we conceived was to design together with those
> toolkits a generic API that new versions could implement and focus on
> implementing portable algorithms with a choice of storage. And that's
> basically the current scope of Commons RDF as I know it.
>

That's pretty much the goal of the Clerezza RDF library too. And I can show
you usecases where the current version of your API doesn't fulfill this
purpose.


>
> Therefore adopting Clerezza as a yet-another library does really bring any
> value to Apache Commons.


What I wanted to push yesterday to git and found out that I can't push is a
subset of Clerezza rdf-core adapted to much the rdf-commons on Github as
close as possible (that it, while staying with Java best practices and not
introducing artifacts that make it less general purpose).


> Besides there are many aspects (blank nodes, etc) why I would never
> consider Clerezza as a generic RDF API, but that's another story.
>

Bring forward your concerns, we had many discussions around the Clerezza
RDF API and its likely that what makes you skeptic has been discussed and
answered before. As for the project on github I've never seen any
discussion about this on the various semantic web related mailing lists at
apache.


>
> FMPOV the decision of Apache Commons to grants write access to all ASF
> committers should not be used as way out of dying projects.
>

No, I don't think that's fair. Clerezza is an Apache project which has
never been sponsored by a large company or research institution so clerezza
is driven mainly by volunteers who use their spare time to write beautiful
code. I don't think you are in a position to diagnose clerezza as "dying
project" (for instance we are having an active mailing list and the
proposal to publish the RDF API as commons found 4 spontaneous +1 within
one day).


> But that's my personal opinion. I hope it would be taken into
> consideration.
>

Rather than about accusations I would like to talk about APIs, not is some
private circles but at Apache. Following the mantra "If it wasn't on the
mailing list it didn't happen". As I first step I wanted to push a draft
merging the core of clerezza with your proposals om github, not as
something final, but as a basis for discussion.

Reto


>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Sergio Fernández
> Partner Technology Manager
> Redlink GmbH
> m: +43 660 2747 925
> e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
> w: http://redlink.co
>
>
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>

Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Sergio Fernández <wi...@apache.org>.
Hi,

On 18/12/14 13:43, Benedikt Ritter wrote:
> We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
> related to this proposal? In the end the people around
> https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their code
> to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
> discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
> infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library to
> commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with bootstraping
> the component and bring up a website.

as part of that initiative, I'd like to assert my opinion here. That we 
did not accommodate as project in Apache Commons is just accessory and 
not so important.

Andy already reply to COMMONSSITE-80,but I think this is a better place 
for such discussion.

Because probably many of the folks here are not so familiar with RDF, 
I'd like to introduce (my version of) the story: RDF is a directed 
labeled graph proposed by W3C as base data model for the Semantic Web. 
In the Java world there are historically two major toolkits (Apache Jena 
and OpenRDF Sesame) that with different approaches provide a RDF stack. 
Therefore there are many wrappers trying to 'integrate' both 
implementations, Apache Clerezza is one, but there are others.

The idea of Commons RDF as we conceived was to design together with 
those toolkits a generic API that new versions could implement and focus 
on implementing portable algorithms with a choice of storage. And that's 
basically the current scope of Commons RDF as I know it.

Therefore adopting Clerezza as a yet-another library does really bring 
any value to Apache Commons. Besides there are many aspects (blank 
nodes, etc) why I would never consider Clerezza as a generic RDF API, 
but that's another story.

FMPOV the decision of Apache Commons to grants write access to all ASF
committers should not be used as way out of dying projects.

But that's my personal opinion. I hope it would be taken into consideration.

Cheers,

-- 
Sergio Fernández
Partner Technology Manager
Redlink GmbH
m: +43 660 2747 925
e: sergio.fernandez@redlink.co
w: http://redlink.co

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Re: Commons RDF

Posted by Benedikt Ritter <br...@apache.org>.
Hello Reto,

2014-12-18 13:29 GMT+01:00 Reto Gmür <re...@apache.org>:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Following the recent announcement and as mentioned yesterday I've started
> some steps towards commons RDF.
>
> The Apache Clerezza project has the goal to provide an "API modeling the
> W3C RDF standard without any vendor specific additions". We have been
> providing such an API for several years now and it has been used in several
> EU research project and by the Dutch government.
>
> As Clerezza provides much more than just the API and many are just
> interested in this API without being interested in the rest of Clerezza it
> would be good to have this API as apache commons. The API could also need
> some brush up following the experience of the past years as well as
> alignment with other API proposal.
>
> I'm not sure about hwat the steps should be done for the purpose of
> creating commons RDF.
>
> What I've done so far;
> - Discussion on Clerezza Mailing list [1]
> - Opened issue COMMONSSITE-80
> - Committed some initial code to the sandbox [2]
>
> I would be thankful for advice on how to proceed.
>

*copy pasting my answer from the other thread*

We had a similar proposal a while ago [1]. Is the Clerezza RDF library
related to this proposal? In the end the people around
https://github.com/commons-rdf/commons-rdf decided not to bring their code
to Apache Commons, because they wanted to use github for development and
discussions. They already requested the commons-rdf git repository from
infra, which is now unused [2]. So if you want to bring your RDF library to
commons, we can use that repo, I guess... I can help you with bootstraping
the component and bring up a website.

Regrads,
Benedikt

[1] http://markmail.org/message/dtvy7mpm7gd7kvdw
[2] http://git.apache.org/


> Cheers,
> Reto
>
>
> 1.
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/clerezza-dev/201412.mbox/%3CCALvhUEVDfTSWZV%2B2FPMiup%2Bs1BPJUZjL5mW_4%3D5%2BRPN14SZzAg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> 2. http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/rdf/trunk/
>


-- 
http://people.apache.org/~britter/
http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
http://github.com/britter