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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> on 2018/10/16 08:06:53 UTC
Getting through the hoops (was: Mentors wanted...)
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com> wrote:
> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them through the
> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup, reading, etc...
> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
if the project uses that.
Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
-Bertrand
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On 16 Oct 2018, at 13:26, Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So, I took a stab at this, Work-In-Progress and what not:
>
> https://icla.live/
Rather neat. I’d practice data-minimalisation right out of the gate though - as to not burden the ASF with data that becomes a liability.
E.g. drop the phone number.
Secondly - the first question -I’d be a lot clearer about the option to `hide’ this by providing a public name.
Perhaps pre-fill the public name with the full one - or ask the public name -first- and rephrase it - under what name are you publicly known in the ASF community.
For some countries - I’d keep the option open to simply print it and sign & scan and email.
Dw.
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
I should note that this only generates a PDF, it doesn't send it - so
test all you like!
On 10/16/2018 01:26 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> So, I took a stab at this, Work-In-Progress and what not:
>
> https://icla.live/
>
> Feedback is most welcome!
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> On 10/16/2018 10:56 AM, Serge Huber wrote:
>> Indeed that would be really nice, and we could imagine a form that
>> would give people through the process, and also sent expectations in
>> terms of what happens next and how much time it might take.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Serge…
>>
>>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:33, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:29 AM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> ...Thinking out loud here...what if we made a form that better explains
>>>> things and checks if the userid is available etc, and then it generates
>>>> a PDF to review/sign with all the fields filled out?...
>>>
>>> That would be fantastic - onboarding instructions that consist of a
>>> single persistent URL are a Good Thing!
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 10/16/2018 02:43 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:27 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...
>> https://icla.live/
> ...
>
> I love it! With a few comments ;-)
>
> We should be very clear about which information is required or not, I
> don't think we really need a phone number for example - it should be
> clear what's the minimal required information.
I don't personally know which fields are required and which are merely
optional, so I'm CCing secretary@ on this one. If we could get sojme
clarity, I can improve the form a bunch.
>
> I'd prefer a form with all fields on the same page, otherwise I'm
> always wondering how many "next steps" there are ;-)
I could, of course say "step N/10" on the various pages for starters :)
>
> Just nitpicks really, I think this is a big improvement, thanks Daniel!
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:27 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...
> > https://icla.live/
> ...
Also, the "Process completed" page should indicate what happens next.
"You will get an email when your iCLA is recorded" or something.
-Bertrand
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:27 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
...
> https://icla.live/
...
I love it! With a few comments ;-)
We should be very clear about which information is required or not, I
don't think we really need a phone number for example - it should be
clear what's the minimal required information.
I'd prefer a form with all fields on the same page, otherwise I'm
always wondering how many "next steps" there are ;-)
Just nitpicks really, I think this is a big improvement, thanks Daniel!
-Bertrand
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
So, I took a stab at this, Work-In-Progress and what not:
https://icla.live/
Feedback is most welcome!
With regards,
Daniel.
On 10/16/2018 10:56 AM, Serge Huber wrote:
> Indeed that would be really nice, and we could imagine a form that would give people through the process, and also sent expectations in terms of what happens next and how much time it might take.
>
> Regards,
> Serge…
>
>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:33, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:29 AM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> ...Thinking out loud here...what if we made a form that better explains
>>> things and checks if the userid is available etc, and then it generates
>>> a PDF to review/sign with all the fields filled out?...
>>
>> That would be fantastic - onboarding instructions that consist of a
>> single persistent URL are a Good Thing!
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Serge Huber <sh...@apache.org>.
Indeed that would be really nice, and we could imagine a form that would give people through the process, and also sent expectations in terms of what happens next and how much time it might take.
Regards,
Serge…
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:33, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:29 AM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...Thinking out loud here...what if we made a form that better explains
>> things and checks if the userid is available etc, and then it generates
>> a PDF to review/sign with all the fields filled out?...
>
> That would be fantastic - onboarding instructions that consist of a
> single persistent URL are a Good Thing!
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:29 AM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Thinking out loud here...what if we made a form that better explains
> things and checks if the userid is available etc, and then it generates
> a PDF to review/sign with all the fields filled out?...
That would be fantastic - onboarding instructions that consist of a
single persistent URL are a Good Thing!
-Bertrand
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 10/16/2018 10:25 AM, Serge Huber wrote:
>
> Actually I think there is a lot of documentation and in itself it can be a bit daunting. Also for the committer request, it would be great if it could be streamlined by doing some kind of online form but there is the question of the digital signature that might be an issue.
Thinking out loud here...what if we made a form that better explains
things and checks if the userid is available etc, and then it generates
a PDF to review/sign with all the fields filled out?
>
> Also, some of the optional fields such as the Apache ID or the project name should maybe be explained as less than optional. I’ve had the problem recently that committers filled the ICLA without the optional fields, and then the secretary asked for the ID and the project name. So this is putting additional work on the secretary which could be avoided.
>
> In other words, it’s not that hard when you know the process, but when you’re learning it and want to do the right thing by not bothering mentors for everything, I think it is less straightforward than setting up an account on Github, which I think is what a lot of people are comparing the experience too (at least that’s the feedback I get usually).
>
> Regards,
> Serge…
>
>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:06, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com> wrote:
>>> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them through the
>>> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup, reading, etc...
>>> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
>>
>> I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
>>
>> IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
>> register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
>> their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
>> Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
>> if the project uses that.
>>
>> Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Getting through the hoops
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 10/18/2018 08:59 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:
> Finding the project for an ICLA isn't too hard provided the person's name
> was mentioned in the mailing list recently. Finding the userid for someone
> new, however, does require them to tell us ahead of time.
Mhmm, that's why I made it mandatory on icla.live, and also check
against existing user IDs. It's not perfect (someone can still be stupid
and insist on 'webmaster'), but it's better than before :)
On that note, I think I'm done for now with that site. Use it for
projects if y'all want to :)
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 09:31, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Serge Huber <sh...@jahia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually I think there is a lot of documentation and in itself it can be
>> a bit daunting. Also for the committer request, it would be great if it
>> could be streamlined by doing some kind of online form but there is the
>> question of the digital signature that might be an issue.
>>>
>>> Also, some of the optional fields such as the Apache ID or the project
>> name should maybe be explained as less than optional. I’ve had the problem
>> recently that committers filled the ICLA without the optional fields, and
>> then the secretary asked for the ID and the project name. So this is
>> putting additional work on the secretary which could be avoided.
>>>
>>> In other words, it’s not that hard when you know the process, but when
>> you’re learning it and want to do the right thing by not bothering mentors
>> for everything, I think it is less straightforward than setting up an
>> account on Github, which I think is what a lot of people are comparing the
>> experience too (at least that’s the feedback I get usually).
>>
>> Your Mentors are the ones who need to update the roster in Whimsy. It used
>> to be only the VP Incubator.
>>
>> If a Mentor is not helping drive onboarding then they aren’t engaged.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Serge…
>>>
>>>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:06, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them
>> through the
>>>>> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup,
>> reading, etc...
>>>>> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
>>>>
>>>> IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
>>>> register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
>>>> their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
>>>> Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
>>>> if the project uses that.
>>>>
>>>> Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
>>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: Getting through the hoops (was: Mentors wanted...)
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
Finding the project for an ICLA isn't too hard provided the person's name
was mentioned in the mailing list recently. Finding the userid for someone
new, however, does require them to tell us ahead of time.
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 09:31, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Serge Huber <sh...@jahia.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Actually I think there is a lot of documentation and in itself it can be
> a bit daunting. Also for the committer request, it would be great if it
> could be streamlined by doing some kind of online form but there is the
> question of the digital signature that might be an issue.
> >
> > Also, some of the optional fields such as the Apache ID or the project
> name should maybe be explained as less than optional. I’ve had the problem
> recently that committers filled the ICLA without the optional fields, and
> then the secretary asked for the ID and the project name. So this is
> putting additional work on the secretary which could be avoided.
> >
> > In other words, it’s not that hard when you know the process, but when
> you’re learning it and want to do the right thing by not bothering mentors
> for everything, I think it is less straightforward than setting up an
> account on Github, which I think is what a lot of people are comparing the
> experience too (at least that’s the feedback I get usually).
>
> Your Mentors are the ones who need to update the roster in Whimsy. It used
> to be only the VP Incubator.
>
> If a Mentor is not helping drive onboarding then they aren’t engaged.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Serge…
> >
> >> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:06, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com>
> wrote:
> >>> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them
> through the
> >>> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup,
> reading, etc...
> >>> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
> >>
> >> I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
> >>
> >> IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
> >> register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
> >> their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
> >> Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
> >> if the project uses that.
> >>
> >> Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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>
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: Getting through the hoops (was: Mentors wanted...)
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Serge Huber <sh...@jahia.com> wrote:
>
>
> Actually I think there is a lot of documentation and in itself it can be a bit daunting. Also for the committer request, it would be great if it could be streamlined by doing some kind of online form but there is the question of the digital signature that might be an issue.
>
> Also, some of the optional fields such as the Apache ID or the project name should maybe be explained as less than optional. I’ve had the problem recently that committers filled the ICLA without the optional fields, and then the secretary asked for the ID and the project name. So this is putting additional work on the secretary which could be avoided.
>
> In other words, it’s not that hard when you know the process, but when you’re learning it and want to do the right thing by not bothering mentors for everything, I think it is less straightforward than setting up an account on Github, which I think is what a lot of people are comparing the experience too (at least that’s the feedback I get usually).
Your Mentors are the ones who need to update the roster in Whimsy. It used to be only the VP Incubator.
If a Mentor is not helping drive onboarding then they aren’t engaged.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Regards,
> Serge…
>
>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:06, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com> wrote:
>>> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them through the
>>> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup, reading, etc...
>>> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
>>
>> I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
>>
>> IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
>> register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
>> their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
>> Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
>> if the project uses that.
>>
>> Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Getting through the hoops (was: Mentors wanted...)
Posted by Serge Huber <sh...@jahia.com>.
Actually I think there is a lot of documentation and in itself it can be a bit daunting. Also for the committer request, it would be great if it could be streamlined by doing some kind of online form but there is the question of the digital signature that might be an issue.
Also, some of the optional fields such as the Apache ID or the project name should maybe be explained as less than optional. I’ve had the problem recently that committers filled the ICLA without the optional fields, and then the secretary asked for the ID and the project name. So this is putting additional work on the secretary which could be avoided.
In other words, it’s not that hard when you know the process, but when you’re learning it and want to do the right thing by not bothering mentors for everything, I think it is less straightforward than setting up an account on Github, which I think is what a lot of people are comparing the experience too (at least that’s the feedback I get usually).
Regards,
Serge…
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:06, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:29 PM Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com> wrote:
>> ...I've continued to reach out to other initial committers to get them through the
>> hoops here at Apache--which took <one of them> a few weeks of setup, reading, etc...
>> Mostly, I think folks find the process daunting. :-/...
>
> I'm curious what's so hard, maybe we aren't explaining things properly?
>
> IMO an initial or elected committer needs to choose an Apache ID,
> register their iCLA, wait for their account to be created, sign up to
> their project's dev (and maybe private) list and they're in business.
> Ok, for now they also need to create accounts on Jira and Confluence
> if the project uses that.
>
> Is this what's considered too hard, or did I miss something?
>
> -Bertrand
>
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