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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Matthew L Daniel <md...@scdi.com> on 2004/12/29 04:17:09 UTC
Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
> > > > In trying to track down an email to this mailing list, it appears
> > > > that the search function on the web site is broken.
> > >
> > > Yeah the tigris mailing list archive stuff is not very good. Here's
> > > the
> >
> > Could we add a note to this effect on the web page so people don't
> > end up pulling their hair out like I almost did? :-)
>
> I wish it were that easy, but those pages are servlet-generated, and
> there's all sorts of hair associated with changing the wording on
> them. (Not saying it can't be done, just not sure the effort is worth
> the benefit, although I do, um, "feel your pain".)
I actually joined this list for two reasons, to follow up to an age old
problem that resurfaced on my machine while building 1.1.2 and to revive
this discussion.
You mean to tell me that you consider it a Good Idea(tm) to purposefully
allow a broken search form to live on tigris.org? Thankfully, I thought
to check some of the well-known places for mailing list mirrors
otherwise I never would have found the solution to my problem.
Ooooo, the pages are "servlet-generated." Sounds pretty scary to me. I
have this GREAT mental picture of out.println("<html>\n...); in
SearchList.java.
Perplexedly yours,
-- /v\atthew
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by Max Bowsher <ma...@ukf.net>.
John Peacock wrote:
> Matthew L Daniel wrote:
>> You mean to tell me that you consider it a Good Idea(tm) to purposefully
>> allow a broken search form to live on tigris.org? Thankfully, I thought
>> to check some of the well-known places for mailing list mirrors
>> otherwise I never would have found the solution to my problem.
>
> Don't tell anyone I said so, but I think the poor list search tool on
> tigris.org is an example of the "not invented here" syndrome. Rather
> than use some other method to search the archives (for example, one that
> actually works), the tigris.org lists are indexed/searched using a
> project also hosted on tigris.org itself.
>
> I complained about it one time and was basically told "if the search
> engine is so bad, why don't you help fix it instead of complaining about
> it." I suspect that the lousy search engine problem will exist as long
> as Subversion is hosted on tigris.org. Not much point in complaining
> about it as long as this attitude exists...
It's not about an attitude. It's about the fact that the software running
tigris.org is a pre-packaged suite, which does not permit much in the way of
code customizations, since they get wiped out when an upgrade occurs.
The subversion developers, even the collab.net ones, recommend using
non-tigris.org archives (see the links page to find them).
Max.
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by Max Bowsher <ma...@ukf.net>.
Matthew L Daniel wrote:
>> I complained about it one time and was basically told "if the search
>> engine is so bad, why don't you help fix it instead of complaining about
>> it." I suspect that the lousy search engine problem will exist as long
>> as Subversion is hosted on tigris.org. Not much point in complaining
>> about it as long as this attitude exists...
>
> But there are two different philosophies in your post: one is jump in
> and code (+1) and the other is that inertia is too strong for mere
> mortals to overcome (-1).
>
> It's the latter that I was complaining about and that I saw in the
> mailing list (and, honestly, manifested through the broken search
> engine).
>
> I have little problem backing my words with (action|code). I've learned
> from the Jakarta group, though, that I don't want to spent a single
> minute coding if I know my patches are going to /dev/null.
>
> You know, Subversion already is facing an uphill battle trying to edge
> out CVS because of that same inertia problem. I sure hope it doesn't
> fall prey to the same fallacy it's trying to overcome.
We have an inertia problem? If so we'd like to try to fix it.
Did you send a patch that got ignored? If so, sorry, we do try to catch all
patches, even if all we do immediately is log them in the issue tracker for
consideration when someone has time.
Max.
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by Matthew L Daniel <md...@scdi.com>.
> There are things that happen merely because that is how
> they are set up with the hosting system that the Subversion peoject
> cannot change. That's the inertia I'm faulting...
One of the proposed solutions on the list (that I'm +1 for) was merely
changing the verbiage on the ProjectMailingListList page to reflect that
the search engine is broken.
I follow (at least I think I do) that it is beyond mortal powers to
change the "Search mailing list archive" link to point to something
useful (such as marc). But since the Description field contains what
appears to be free text, I don't see the issue with updating that to
read "WARNING: we know the link above doesn't work, try this one
instead".
-- /v\atthew
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by John Peacock <jp...@rowman.com>.
Matthew L Daniel wrote:
> You know, Subversion already is facing an uphill battle trying to edge
> out CVS because of that same inertia problem. I sure hope it doesn't
> fall prey to the same fallacy it's trying to overcome.
There is much to be said for reinventing the wheel, when your new wheel
has so many improvements over (and fixes known problems of) the old
wheel. That's what the Subversion project is attempting to do with CVS
and I think greatly succeeding.
There is also the admission that sometimes the old wheel really is good
enough and doesn't need replacing. This is especially true if the new
wheel isn't capable of completely replacing the old wheel any time soon,
and using the new wheel causes problems that the old wheel already
solves well. That's the mailing list software used by tigris.org.
I want to emphasize that I don't think the fault lies with the
Subversion project itself, but rather with the hosting relationship with
tigris.org. There are things that happen merely because that is how
they are set up with the hosting system that the Subversion peoject
cannot change. That's the inertia I'm faulting...
John
--
John Peacock
Director of Information Research and Technology
Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group
4501 Forbes Boulevard
Suite H
Lanham, MD 20706
301-459-3366 x.5010
fax 301-429-5748
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by Matthew L Daniel <md...@scdi.com>.
> I complained about it one time and was basically told "if the search
> engine is so bad, why don't you help fix it instead of complaining about
> it." I suspect that the lousy search engine problem will exist as long
> as Subversion is hosted on tigris.org. Not much point in complaining
> about it as long as this attitude exists...
But there are two different philosophies in your post: one is jump in
and code (+1) and the other is that inertia is too strong for mere
mortals to overcome (-1).
It's the latter that I was complaining about and that I saw in the
mailing list (and, honestly, manifested through the broken search
engine).
I have little problem backing my words with (action|code). I've learned
from the Jakarta group, though, that I don't want to spent a single
minute coding if I know my patches are going to /dev/null.
You know, Subversion already is facing an uphill battle trying to edge
out CVS because of that same inertia problem. I sure hope it doesn't
fall prey to the same fallacy it's trying to overcome.
-- /v\atthew
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Re: Is the mailing list search function broken?
Posted by John Peacock <jp...@rowman.com>.
Matthew L Daniel wrote:
> You mean to tell me that you consider it a Good Idea(tm) to purposefully
> allow a broken search form to live on tigris.org? Thankfully, I thought
> to check some of the well-known places for mailing list mirrors
> otherwise I never would have found the solution to my problem.
Don't tell anyone I said so, but I think the poor list search tool on
tigris.org is an example of the "not invented here" syndrome. Rather
than use some other method to search the archives (for example, one that
actually works), the tigris.org lists are indexed/searched using a
project also hosted on tigris.org itself.
I complained about it one time and was basically told "if the search
engine is so bad, why don't you help fix it instead of complaining about
it." I suspect that the lousy search engine problem will exist as long
as Subversion is hosted on tigris.org. Not much point in complaining
about it as long as this attitude exists...
John
--
John Peacock
Director of Information Research and Technology
Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group
4501 Forbes Boulevard
Suite H
Lanham, MD 20706
301-459-3366 x.5010
fax 301-429-5748
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