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Posted to java-dev@axis.apache.org by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> on 2007/02/21 09:21:45 UTC
Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Wait wait .. not yet!
David, you can just have another handler that goes before the built-in
MU handler that flags any headers you want to allow thru without causing
grief. Wouldn't that do the trick?
Sanjiva.
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 08:31 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Give 'em rope :) +1
>
> thanks
> -- dims
>
> On 2/21/07, David Illsley <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm coming back to this after focussing on other things...
> >
> > I agree with everyone that mustUnderstand checking is a core, and
> > important (if sometimes annoying) SOAP processing rule. I also don't
> > advocate ANYONE deploying a SOAP web services engine that doesn't do
> > that checking.
> >
> > That said, I'm trying to embed Axis2 where Axis2 is not the 'whole
> > engine' or the 'whole node'. In that case, I want to be able to insert
> > mustUnderstand processing which 'knows' that a given set of headers
> > are/were/will be understood outside of the scope of the Axis2
> > handlers/engine. Even if I were to put that login in a custom handler
> > which runs before the engine, I'd then still incur the overhead of the
> > AxisEngine checkMustUnderstand. This is why I'd like to move it out.
> >
> > Yes, there is a chance with moving it out that a user 'undeploys' the
> > mustunderstand checking without replacing it. But, I'm happy to
> > document (in axis2.xml) that that is a supremely bad idea and that it
> > should only be done if you really know what you're doing.
> >
> > There's plenty of rope provided by axis2 to let users hang
> > themselves... I think this is only another couple of inches.
> >
> > David
> >
> > On 23/01/07, Manoj Khangaonkar <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi David,
> > >
> > > If the mustUnderstand handler runs last, that means a node cannot ignore a
> > > header until all the handlers have
> > > executed. Until the handler executes, the node does not know if it must
> > > process the header or not. One would think
> > > that a check like mustUnderstand which is fundamental to SOAP should happen
> > > early , not late in the cycle.
> > >
> > > If mustUnderstand=true and you ignore the header, does that not make it non
> > > compliant with SOAP ?
> > >
> > > Also what if some one else comes up with a requirement that their handler
> > > needs to run last ?
> > >
> > > Mj
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1/22/07, David Illsley <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > I'm looking at using the axis2 engine as part of a larger system which
> > > > will have a set of roles which we want respected and perhaps a set of
> > > > headers whcih should be ignored for mustUnderstand checking because
> > > > anothe rpart of the system will deal with them.
> > > >
> > > > Currently the mustUnderstand checking is simply a method in
> > > > AxisEngine. I'd quite like to pull this out into a handler which runs
> > > > last. This would have the advantage that it would be simple for other
> > > > people to use in a similar way (perhaps this would be useful for
> > > > synapse?) and reduces the complexity of AxisEngine.
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts? Objections?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > David Illsley - IBM Web Services Development
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Illsley - IBM Web Services Development
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
--
Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D.
Founder & Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/
Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/
Director; Open Source Initiative; http://www.opensource.org/
Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Doh! Yep thats what I meant.
Paul
On 3/8/07, Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com> wrote:
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > * it must fault if there are mustUnderstand headers targeted at its roles
>
> MU headers that it doesn't actually understand, you mean. :)
>
> --G
>
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--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> * it must fault if there are mustUnderstand headers targeted at its roles
MU headers that it doesn't actually understand, you mean. :)
--G
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Jeremy
I think maybe you've misread the spec.
Basically the relay attribute is a red-herring in this case, because I
for one have never seen a relay header. The model is actually
reasonably simple (excluding the relay attribute for the minute):
* headers that are not explicitly marked with a role default to be
targeted at the ultimateReceiver
* nodes should understand which roles they are playing. Any node must
always play the role of next.
* any node may process and remove any headers targeted at its roles
* it must fault if there are mustUnderstand headers targeted at its roles
Actual relaying is a further complexity but I think that is
irrelevant. The behaviour required in the previous note-chain is
exactly that provided by defining roles as I've described and as the
SOAP spec describes.
Paul
Suppose Axis2 is acting as a
On 3/8/07, Jeremy Hughes <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi guys ...
>
> On 21/02/07, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > David, Sanjiva
> >
> > Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
> > situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
> > the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
> > Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
> >
> > The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
> > that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
> > model.
> >
>
> AFAICS, headers which are mustUnderstand="true" can't be relayed (see 2.7.1):
>
> The relay attribute information item has no effect on the SOAP
> processing model when the header block also carries a mustUnderstand
> attribute information item with a value of "true".
>
> (btw: I'm working with David on this) I think embedding Axis2 into a
> larger system such that the whole of the larger system acts as a
> single SOAP node would be a useful use case - if for example code
> running outside of Axis2 would like to 'understand' headers. By
> separating these out into two nodes, it looks like those headers that
> are mustUnderstand true / role next can't get relayed to the second
> node.
>
> This is all kinda moot anyway and Sanjiva's suggestion seems to be the
> best (only?) way of achieving this ... because ... for the piece of
> the larger system, that Axis2 might be a part of, to do *all* of the
> mustUnderstand either the Axis2 processed headers must have already
> been removed (AIUI typically they're not) or the metadata about
> flagging a header as processed needs to be flowed outside of Axis2
> into the 'larger system'.
>
> So inserting a handler to flag headers as processed and then doing the
> real processing in the larger system seems to be the only option. Any
> other ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Jeremy
>
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>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Jeremy Hughes <hu...@apache.org>.
Hi guys ...
On 21/02/07, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David, Sanjiva
>
> Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
> situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
> the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
> Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
>
> The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
> that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
> model.
>
AFAICS, headers which are mustUnderstand="true" can't be relayed (see 2.7.1):
The relay attribute information item has no effect on the SOAP
processing model when the header block also carries a mustUnderstand
attribute information item with a value of "true".
(btw: I'm working with David on this) I think embedding Axis2 into a
larger system such that the whole of the larger system acts as a
single SOAP node would be a useful use case - if for example code
running outside of Axis2 would like to 'understand' headers. By
separating these out into two nodes, it looks like those headers that
are mustUnderstand true / role next can't get relayed to the second
node.
This is all kinda moot anyway and Sanjiva's suggestion seems to be the
best (only?) way of achieving this ... because ... for the piece of
the larger system, that Axis2 might be a part of, to do *all* of the
mustUnderstand either the Axis2 processed headers must have already
been removed (AIUI typically they're not) or the metadata about
flagging a header as processed needs to be flowed outside of Axis2
into the 'larger system'.
So inserting a handler to flag headers as processed and then doing the
real processing in the larger system seems to be the only option. Any
other ideas?
Thanks,
Jeremy
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Cool! I'd love to implement this in Synapse too. Basically have a way
> of defining the roles a Synapse node implements.
Yup - you'll just configure that in Synapse and then pass it down to Axis.
--G
>> Paul Fremantle wrote:
>> > David, Sanjiva
>> >
>> > Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
>> > situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
>> > the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
>> > Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
>> >
>> > The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
>> > that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
>> > model.
>>
>> Incidentally, per the other thread [1] I'm going to be improving this
>> functionality very soon to add the capability for the engine (or
>> individual services / modules) to determine which roles are in play, and
>> only do the MU check on those roles.
>>
>> We should also make sure to only PROCESS the headers targeted at those
>> roles, which will be a little more coordination work between Axis, OM,
>> and the Module writers.
>>
>> --Glen
>>
>> [1]
>> http://www.nabble.com/AxisEngine.checkMustUnderstand-enforcing-actor-roles--t3350540.html
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> Cool! I'd love to implement this in Synapse too. Basically have a way
> of defining the roles a Synapse node implements.
Yup - you'll just configure that in Synapse and then pass it down to Axis.
--G
>> Paul Fremantle wrote:
>> > David, Sanjiva
>> >
>> > Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
>> > situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
>> > the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
>> > Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
>> >
>> > The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
>> > that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
>> > model.
>>
>> Incidentally, per the other thread [1] I'm going to be improving this
>> functionality very soon to add the capability for the engine (or
>> individual services / modules) to determine which roles are in play, and
>> only do the MU check on those roles.
>>
>> We should also make sure to only PROCESS the headers targeted at those
>> roles, which will be a little more coordination work between Axis, OM,
>> and the Module writers.
>>
>> --Glen
>>
>> [1]
>> http://www.nabble.com/AxisEngine.checkMustUnderstand-enforcing-actor-roles--t3350540.html
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Cool! I'd love to implement this in Synapse too. Basically have a way
of defining the roles a Synapse node implements.
Paul
On 3/8/07, Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com> wrote:
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > David, Sanjiva
> >
> > Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
> > situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
> > the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
> > Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
> >
> > The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
> > that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
> > model.
>
> Incidentally, per the other thread [1] I'm going to be improving this
> functionality very soon to add the capability for the engine (or
> individual services / modules) to determine which roles are in play, and
> only do the MU check on those roles.
>
> We should also make sure to only PROCESS the headers targeted at those
> roles, which will be a little more coordination work between Axis, OM,
> and the Module writers.
>
> --Glen
>
> [1]
> http://www.nabble.com/AxisEngine.checkMustUnderstand-enforcing-actor-roles--t3350540.html
>
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>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
Cool! I'd love to implement this in Synapse too. Basically have a way
of defining the roles a Synapse node implements.
Paul
On 3/8/07, Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com> wrote:
> Paul Fremantle wrote:
> > David, Sanjiva
> >
> > Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
> > situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
> > the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
> > Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
> >
> > The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
> > that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
> > model.
>
> Incidentally, per the other thread [1] I'm going to be improving this
> functionality very soon to add the capability for the engine (or
> individual services / modules) to determine which roles are in play, and
> only do the MU check on those roles.
>
> We should also make sure to only PROCESS the headers targeted at those
> roles, which will be a little more coordination work between Axis, OM,
> and the Module writers.
>
> --Glen
>
> [1]
> http://www.nabble.com/AxisEngine.checkMustUnderstand-enforcing-actor-roles--t3350540.html
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
Paul Fremantle wrote:
> David, Sanjiva
>
> Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
> situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
> the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
> Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
>
> The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
> that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
> model.
Incidentally, per the other thread [1] I'm going to be improving this
functionality very soon to add the capability for the engine (or
individual services / modules) to determine which roles are in play, and
only do the MU check on those roles.
We should also make sure to only PROCESS the headers targeted at those
roles, which will be a little more coordination work between Axis, OM,
and the Module writers.
--Glen
[1]
http://www.nabble.com/AxisEngine.checkMustUnderstand-enforcing-actor-roles--t3350540.html
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Re: [Axis2] Move nustUnderstand check into a handler
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
David, Sanjiva
Shouldn't we be using the SOAP role model to handle this kind of
situation. It seems to me that what you are describing is a case where
the Axis2 engine is not the ultimateReceiver (see 2.7 Relaying SOAP
Messages http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part1/#relaysoapmsg).
The right way to handle this is to identify what role the SOAP node
that is Axis2 is playing and do mustUnderstand checking based on that
model.
Paul
On 2/21/07, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> Wait wait .. not yet!
>
> David, you can just have another handler that goes before the built-in
> MU handler that flags any headers you want to allow thru without causing
> grief. Wouldn't that do the trick?
>
> Sanjiva.
>
> On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 08:31 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Give 'em rope :) +1
> >
> > thanks
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 2/21/07, David Illsley <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm coming back to this after focussing on other things...
> > >
> > > I agree with everyone that mustUnderstand checking is a core, and
> > > important (if sometimes annoying) SOAP processing rule. I also don't
> > > advocate ANYONE deploying a SOAP web services engine that doesn't do
> > > that checking.
> > >
> > > That said, I'm trying to embed Axis2 where Axis2 is not the 'whole
> > > engine' or the 'whole node'. In that case, I want to be able to insert
> > > mustUnderstand processing which 'knows' that a given set of headers
> > > are/were/will be understood outside of the scope of the Axis2
> > > handlers/engine. Even if I were to put that login in a custom handler
> > > which runs before the engine, I'd then still incur the overhead of the
> > > AxisEngine checkMustUnderstand. This is why I'd like to move it out.
> > >
> > > Yes, there is a chance with moving it out that a user 'undeploys' the
> > > mustunderstand checking without replacing it. But, I'm happy to
> > > document (in axis2.xml) that that is a supremely bad idea and that it
> > > should only be done if you really know what you're doing.
> > >
> > > There's plenty of rope provided by axis2 to let users hang
> > > themselves... I think this is only another couple of inches.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > On 23/01/07, Manoj Khangaonkar <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi David,
> > > >
> > > > If the mustUnderstand handler runs last, that means a node cannot ignore a
> > > > header until all the handlers have
> > > > executed. Until the handler executes, the node does not know if it must
> > > > process the header or not. One would think
> > > > that a check like mustUnderstand which is fundamental to SOAP should happen
> > > > early , not late in the cycle.
> > > >
> > > > If mustUnderstand=true and you ignore the header, does that not make it non
> > > > compliant with SOAP ?
> > > >
> > > > Also what if some one else comes up with a requirement that their handler
> > > > needs to run last ?
> > > >
> > > > Mj
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 1/22/07, David Illsley <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > I'm looking at using the axis2 engine as part of a larger system which
> > > > > will have a set of roles which we want respected and perhaps a set of
> > > > > headers whcih should be ignored for mustUnderstand checking because
> > > > > anothe rpart of the system will deal with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently the mustUnderstand checking is simply a method in
> > > > > AxisEngine. I'd quite like to pull this out into a handler which runs
> > > > > last. This would have the advantage that it would be simple for other
> > > > > people to use in a similar way (perhaps this would be useful for
> > > > > synapse?) and reduces the complexity of AxisEngine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any thoughts? Objections?
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > David Illsley - IBM Web Services Development
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Illsley - IBM Web Services Development
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> --
> Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D.
> Founder & Director; Lanka Software Foundation; http://www.opensource.lk/
> Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://www.wso2.com/
> Director; Open Source Initiative; http://www.opensource.org/
> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
> Visiting Lecturer; University of Moratuwa; http://www.cse.mrt.ac.lk/
>
>
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>
>
--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
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