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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org> on 2005/10/03 00:22:06 UTC
Re: svn commit: r293179 - /forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/docs_0_80/howto/howto-collaborativeEditing.html
rgardler@apache.org wrote:
> Author: rgardler
> Date: Sun Oct 2 15:19:26 2005
> New Revision: 293179
>
> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=293179&view=rev
> Log:
> howto on collaborative editing, written collaboratively by Addi, Diwaker and Ross)
>
> Added:
> forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/docs_0_80/howto/howto-collaborativeEditing.html (with props)
>
I've not linked this in to the site yet because the text talks about
using it for ForrestTuesdays and we can't do that until it can be
installed on Macs easily (site says it is in the pipeline)
We'll give a more complete summary of our impressions some other time
(I'm going to bed now). For the curious this document will tell you what
you need to know.
In short, it was great and I think could be really useful.
Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Diwaker Gupta wrote:
> I think real time collaborative editors are complementary to Lenya et al. The
> "real time" part is what is important. In Lenya, I can't see in real time
> what others are doing with the document.
>
> In my head, Gobby and such are only meant for short, highly focused
> interactions and not much more than that. So if people have ideas for some
> document, they can write it up on Gobby and publish as usual through Lenya.
> Further edits etc would also go through Lenya.
+1
Lenya is asynchronous, Gobby is synchronous.
Gobby is great for "pair programming" (which includes documentation).
Another example of its use we discussed is addressing something like the
refactoring of sitemaps to use the locationmap. Imagine a Forrest
Tuesday with three people online, one xmap file each, shared loationmap
file.
Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by Diwaker Gupta <di...@apache.org>.
> We could create a howto for each tool:
> Lenya, SubEthaEdit, Gobby, InkScape.
SubEthaEdit is Mac only, and IIUC will remain so.
Inkscape is a tool for creating SVG files. I'm not sure how useful that is to
us.
I think real time collaborative editors are complementary to Lenya et al. The
"real time" part is what is important. In Lenya, I can't see in real time
what others are doing with the document.
In my head, Gobby and such are only meant for short, highly focused
interactions and not much more than that. So if people have ideas for some
document, they can write it up on Gobby and publish as usual through Lenya.
Further edits etc would also go through Lenya.
Diwaker
--
Web/Blog/Gallery: http://floatingsun.net
On Apache: http://people.apache.org/~diwaker
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> (are we having a Forrest Tuesday tomorrow? I just realised the date, I'm
> up for it and will be around from around 2pm BST and an hour or so in
> the morning - focus could be a bug fix drive, everyone who logs in tries
> to fix an issue or two, or at least evaluate what needs to be done. I'm
> out all day today, so i'll go with wnything that is decided, then please
> set up the IRC channel anyway and I'll sit in there when I can working
> on bugs).
I've seen the proper thread now. Please ignore this here.
Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by rg...@saafe.org.
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> David Crossley wrote:
>> >
>> >We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
>> >that we rushed to a certain software.
>>
>> We rushed to test, we have not rushed to adopt ;-)
>>
>> >A quick Google found me this for example ...
>> >http://www.inkscape.org/
>>
>> The document has a section for alternatives, we should add real
>> alternatives there.
>>
>> However, I do not believe inkscape is an alternative. It is an XVG
>> drawing package, as far as I can tell it does not allow multiple people
>> to work on the same document at the same time.
>
> You snipped my research that it is in the process
> of incorporating such a feature, if not already.
Oh, sorry. I was rushing too much. In that case this is a pretty good
candidate since it has drawing tools as well.
>> >We could create a howto for each tool:
>> >Lenya, SubEthaEdit, Gobby, InkScape.
>>
>> I agree we should examine alternatives, but the only one in this list
>> that is an alternative is SubEthaEdit, unfortunately that is Mac only
>> (is it not?). Gobby is cross platform, although too dificult to install
>> on Mac at this time (work in progress).
>
> As i was suggesting, my quick search revealed one
> possibility. There must be more.
There is a section in the document for other tools, Addi (or was it
Diwaker?) added another alternative there. If we need to use such tools we
know Gobby works, but is a long way from perfect. I'm more than happy to
experiment with other alternatives as well.
Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by addi <ad...@rocktreesky.com>.
On Monday October 03 2005 3:51 pm, Ross Gardler wrote:
> addi@rocktreesky.com wrote:
> > Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:
> >> Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>> David Crossley wrote:
> >>> >We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
> >>> >that we rushed to a certain software.
> >> >
> >> >A quick Google found me this for example ...
> >> >http://www.inkscape.org/
>
> ...
>
> > I have Inkscape .42 and it is a great little SVG program but as far as I
> > can
> > tell, you can't use it to edit the kind of text files we are working
> > with - at
> > least I can't open a .xml file in it. If I'm wrong about that, Inkboard
> > will
> > be in .43 which is in hard freeze and due to be released soon. Again
> > though,
> > the demo only showed WYSIWYG editing of SVG files.
>
> Yes, that is the mistake I made. I'm an Inkscape user and didn't realise
> that David had found a reference saying that they planned to add
> collaborative editing. I'm still to check this out.
Yes, that is the Inkboard I refered to, but it is a collaborative GUI *SVG*
editor from what I can see so far. I haven't found anything about additional
text editing capabilities in any of the documentation or mail lists. As far
as I know Inkscape only allows editing of SVG files, so unless it is an
additional feature of the Inkboard code I don't think we will be able to open
and work with regular xml files in it.
>
> Inkscape is a cool tool, collaborative editing with it would be killer.
I agree and this is definitely something to keep an eye on but I don't think
it is going to be a code editor like we need. Also, for those who are
interested the Inkboard component uses Jabber for the sessions so you will
need a Jabber account to use it.
- Addi
>
> [For those interested, Cocoon is having a similar discussion for use at
> the forthcoming GetTogether]
>
> Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
addi@rocktreesky.com wrote:
> Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:
>
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>
>>> David Crossley wrote:
>>> >
>>> >We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
>>> >that we rushed to a certain software.
>>>
>> >A quick Google found me this for example ...
>> >http://www.inkscape.org/
...
> I have Inkscape .42 and it is a great little SVG program but as far as I
> can
> tell, you can't use it to edit the kind of text files we are working
> with - at
> least I can't open a .xml file in it. If I'm wrong about that, Inkboard
> will
> be in .43 which is in hard freeze and due to be released soon. Again
> though,
> the demo only showed WYSIWYG editing of SVG files.
Yes, that is the mistake I made. I'm an Inkscape user and didn't realise
that David had found a reference saying that they planned to add
collaborative editing. I'm still to check this out.
Inkscape is a cool tool, collaborative editing with it would be killer.
[For those interested, Cocoon is having a similar discussion for use at
the forthcoming GetTogether]
Ross
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by ad...@rocktreesky.com.
Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> David Crossley wrote:
>> >
>> >We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
>> >that we rushed to a certain software.
>>
> >A quick Google found me this for example ...
> >http://www.inkscape.org/
... snip ...
>>
>> I agree we should examine alternatives, but the only one in this list
>> that is an alternative is SubEthaEdit, unfortunately that is Mac only
>> (is it not?). Gobby is cross platform, although too dificult to install
>> on Mac at this time (work in progress).
>
> As i was suggesting, my quick search revealed one
> possibility. There must be more.
>
> -David
>
I did some more poking around re: David's concerns and really didn't come up
with much.
From my searches I came across a few free collaborative editors (oxyd,
DocSynch,
Yarrr) that were in very early development (pre-alpha or planning) or were
plugins/extensions to other programs. Besides Gobby the only other one
I found
that is free, stand-alone and currently usable is MoonEdit but it only has
Linux, FreeBSD and Win versions with no mention of Mac at all.
Besides stand-alone there is also the option of web-based, but all the ones I
came across were designed for editing html pages in a gui and none with real
code editing in mind. (JotSpot Live, Writely)
I have Inkscape .42 and it is a great little SVG program but as far as I can
tell, you can't use it to edit the kind of text files we are working with - at
least I can't open a .xml file in it. If I'm wrong about that, Inkboard will
be in .43 which is in hard freeze and due to be released soon. Again though,
the demo only showed WYSIWYG editing of SVG files.
So, after spending a goodly amount of time wandering around, Gobby is the most
referenced and, I think, still at the top of our list. Hopefully they will
complete the ports for Mac soon.
- Addi
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >
> >We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
> >that we rushed to a certain software.
>
> We rushed to test, we have not rushed to adopt ;-)
>
> >A quick Google found me this for example ...
> >http://www.inkscape.org/
>
> The document has a section for alternatives, we should add real
> alternatives there.
>
> However, I do not believe inkscape is an alternative. It is an XVG
> drawing package, as far as I can tell it does not allow multiple people
> to work on the same document at the same time.
You snipped my research that it is in the process
of incorporating such a feature, if not already.
> >We could create a howto for each tool:
> >Lenya, SubEthaEdit, Gobby, InkScape.
>
> I agree we should examine alternatives, but the only one in this list
> that is an alternative is SubEthaEdit, unfortunately that is Mac only
> (is it not?). Gobby is cross platform, although too dificult to install
> on Mac at this time (work in progress).
As i was suggesting, my quick search revealed one
possibility. There must be more.
-David
Re: collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>>>Author: rgardler
>>>Date: Sun Oct 2 15:19:26 2005
>>>New Revision: 293179
>>>
>>>URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=293179&view=rev
>>>Log:
>>>howto on collaborative editing, written collaboratively by Addi, Diwaker
>>>and Ross)
>>>
>>>Added:
>>> forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/docs_0_80/howto/howto-collaborativeEditing.html (with props)
>>>
>>
>>I've not linked this in to the site yet because the text talks about
>>using it for ForrestTuesdays and we can't do that until it can be
>>installed on Macs easily (site says it is in the pipeline)
>>
>>We'll give a more complete summary of our impressions some other time
>>(I'm going to bed now). For the curious this document will tell you what
>>you need to know.
>>
>>In short, it was great and I think could be really useful.
>
>
> How does our plan for a Lenya instance fit with
> this collaborative editing exploration?
Lenya is not real-time collaborative. It serves a different purpose to
Gobby et. al.
> We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
> that we rushed to a certain software.
We rushed to test, we have not rushed to adopt ;-)
> A quick Google found me this for example ...
> http://www.inkscape.org/
The document has a section for alternatives, we should add real
alternatives there.
However, I do not believe inkscape is an alternative. It is an XVG
drawing package, as far as I can tell it does not allow multiple people
to work on the same document at the same time.
> We could create a howto for each tool:
> Lenya, SubEthaEdit, Gobby, InkScape.
I agree we should examine alternatives, but the only one in this list
that is an alternative is SubEthaEdit, unfortunately that is Mac only
(is it not?). Gobby is cross platform, although too dificult to install
on Mac at this time (work in progress).
As Diwaker says in another mail in this thread. Gobby is great for a
very focussed problem. For example, writing documentation (it is amazing
how fast that howto came together with the three of us working on it). I
think it's real strength will be in documenting our ForrestTuesday
sessions. It was great to agree on something in the chat area then see
someone jump in and documennt that in the document.
(are we having a Forrest Tuesday tomorrow? I just realised the date, I'm
up for it and will be around from around 2pm BST and an hour or so in
the morning - focus could be a bug fix drive, everyone who logs in tries
to fix an issue or two, or at least evaluate what needs to be done. I'm
out all day today, so i'll go with wnything that is decided, then please
set up the IRC channel anyway and I'll sit in there when I can working
on bugs).
Ross
collaborative editing tools (Was: svn commit: r293179)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> >Author: rgardler
> >Date: Sun Oct 2 15:19:26 2005
> >New Revision: 293179
> >
> >URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=293179&view=rev
> >Log:
> >howto on collaborative editing, written collaboratively by Addi, Diwaker
> >and Ross)
> >
> >Added:
> > forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/docs_0_80/howto/howto-collaborativeEditing.html (with props)
> >
>
> I've not linked this in to the site yet because the text talks about
> using it for ForrestTuesdays and we can't do that until it can be
> installed on Macs easily (site says it is in the pipeline)
>
> We'll give a more complete summary of our impressions some other time
> (I'm going to bed now). For the curious this document will tell you what
> you need to know.
>
> In short, it was great and I think could be really useful.
How does our plan for a Lenya instance fit with
this collaborative editing exploration?
We should also explore other tools. I got a bit worried
that we rushed to a certain software.
A quick Google found me this for example ...
http://www.inkscape.org/
The thing that attracted Google attention was
the press release at openclipart.org that mentioned
"picking up the development of Inkboard (http://inkboard.sf.net/)
to integrate networked collaborative editing of documents to Inkscape".
It was a GSoC addition so would be base work.
We could create a howto for each tool:
Lenya, SubEthaEdit, Gobby, InkScape.
-David