Why I am opposed to retaining the name Geronimo, and whi I consider this VOTE to be biased.

[Danny Angus <Da...@slc.co.uk>]

Hi,

Responding to comments made about noise on the VOTE thread, and the
importance of acheiving a reasonable majority for one position over another
(in order to make the decision clearly mandated) I would like to express my
opinions regarding the name and the vote.

1/ With regard to the vote it appears to me that a vote proposing that we
either retain the status-quo or opt for an as yet unknown new option will
always be biased in favour of the status-quo.
I would contend that this issue would have been more fairly decided had a
nomination process been held for potential alternative names.

2/ With regard to the name itself I believe that it would be an expression
of anglo-saxon imperial arrogance to appropriate a cultural symbol of
another culture in this way unless it was with the blessing of the culture
concerned. That we have done it in the past, and that others may also be
doing it is no defence. Consider how you would feel should some refrence
from your cultural history be misappropriated in this way. We are a mixed
community, from innumerable different backgrounds, surely between us we can
exhibit some sensitivity.

That there _is_ a feeling in Native American society against this
misappropriation in general is clearly seen here:

"Mascots perpetuate stereotypes about American Indians, involve the
misappropriation of the American Indian cultural identity, and often
include the display or depiction of symbols and practices having a
religious significance to American Indians.
In addition, these practices are likely to have a negative impact on the
educational experience and self-esteem of American Indian students and
contribute to the mis-education of all students."

from http://www.indiancountry.com/?2700



3/ On a practical level the current name is causing division, we should be
seeking to unite opinion in one way or another, and not pre-empt concesus
by holding a vote before the community has had time to reach broad
agreement. I would stress that I have an open mind about the acceptability
of our use of the name, but also I believe that it is not my judgement
which counts, it is that of Native American society.

4/ Most commercial software is announced and pre-released using a code
name, a working project name.
Ours is "Geronimo". I do not believe that we would undo six months of brand
building if we do change the name, but we need to do it soon, and to
prepare the ground intelligently.


I would stress that I'm a great believer in The Apache Way, I have no doubt
that this will be resolved fairly and to the credit of our community, but
remember that we should consider the issues before voting and if this issue
requires a length debate then thats what we will ahve to put up with.

d.



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Re: Why I am opposed to retaining the name Geronimo, and whi I consider this VOTE to be biased.

[David Hamilton <da...@financity.co.uk>]

Absolutely right - much better to use a symbol of WASP cultural 
imperialism itself rather than any of this ethnic stuff...
.. my suggestion is Custer!!!!

[End sarcasm]

Serious point:  The 'correctness' of the use of Geronimo name would 
depend on which usage was intended:

* If it is intended as a genuine mark of respect for what the name 
Geronimo stands for, and an appreciation of the culture then it should stand

* If it is used in the 'jump off cliff' sense (as I suspect it might be, 
given the context of the project), then it is a misappropriation of a 
culture which is likely to cause offence, and should be dropped

    david


Danny Angus wrote:

>2/ With regard to the name itself I believe that it would be an expression
>of anglo-saxon imperial arrogance to appropriate a cultural symbol of
>another culture in this way unless it was with the blessing of the culture
>concerned. That we have done it in the past, and that others may also be
>doing it is no defence. Consider how you would feel should some refrence
>from your cultural history be misappropriated in this way. We are a mixed
>community, from innumerable different backgrounds, surely between us we can
>exhibit some sensitivity.
>
>  
>

Re: Why I am opposed to retaining the name Geronimo, and whi I consider this VOTE to be biased.

[Jules Gosnell <ju...@coredevelopers.net>]

Danny Angus wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Responding to comments made about noise on the VOTE thread, and the
> importance of acheiving a reasonable majority for one position over another
> (in order to make the decision clearly mandated) I would like to express my
> opinions regarding the name and the vote.
> 
> 1/ With regard to the vote it appears to me that a vote proposing that we
> either retain the status-quo or opt for an as yet unknown new option will
> always be biased in favour of the status-quo.
> I would contend that this issue would have been more fairly decided had a
> nomination process been held for potential alternative names.
> 

but what you're suggesting presupposes that a majority are not in favour
of the status quo. It's a bit of a presupposition to make without asking.

Regardless, I would refute your argument.

I think you actually have more chance of changing the name with a vote
structured like this - as for the initial decision all the people who
want to change the name will be united.

If you suggested 'Geronimo' or 100 other names, the 'no' vote would be
split 100 ways.

> 2/ With regard to the name itself I believe that it would be an expression
> of anglo-saxon imperial arrogance to appropriate a cultural symbol of
> another culture in this way unless it was with the blessing of the culture
> concerned. That we have done it in the past, and that others may also be
> doing it is no defence. Consider how you would feel should some refrence
> from your cultural history be misappropriated in this way. We are a mixed
> community, from innumerable different backgrounds, surely between us we can
> exhibit some sensitivity.
> 
> That there _is_ a feeling in Native American society against this
> misappropriation in general is clearly seen here:
> 
> "Mascots perpetuate stereotypes about American Indians, involve the
> misappropriation of the American Indian cultural identity, and often
> include the display or depiction of symbols and practices having a
> religious significance to American Indians.
> In addition, these practices are likely to have a negative impact on the
> educational experience and self-esteem of American Indian students and
> contribute to the mis-education of all students."
> 
> from http://www.indiancountry.com/?2700
> 
> 

The name 'Geronimo' was chosen democratically by the people who
originally proposed the project to Apache. They had to chose a name,
because it was a requirement of the proposal.

The use of the name does not stereotype or denigrate the individual. No
religious symbols are used.

Geronimo fought for FREEDOM.

The name was proposed as a rallying cry for an international group of
Open Source Developers who identify with this and other attributes of an
historic individual and his struggle.

Uneasiness with the fact that Geronimo was an 'American Indian' (your
terminology), is a north-american-centric emotion, probably not shared
by the rest of the world, and in my mind discriminatory. Geronimo was a
first and foremost an individual. Simply think of him as that. If all
you can think of every time you see the name is 'American Indian' then
the stereotyping is occuring in your mind, not in our choice of name,
and by classifying him thus you are discriminating.


> 
> 3/ On a practical level the current name is causing division, we should be
> seeking to unite opinion in one way or another, and not pre-empt concesus
> by holding a vote before the community has had time to reach broad
> agreement. I would stress that I have an open mind about the acceptability
> of our use of the name, but also I believe that it is not my judgement
> which counts, it is that of Native American society.
> 

Exactly. Furthermore, I would put it to you that voting against the name
simply because Geronimo was an 'American Indian' and you 'think that is
what they would want' is patronising and discriminatory.

> 4/ Most commercial software is announced and pre-released using a code
> name, a working project name.
> Ours is "Geronimo". I do not believe that we would undo six months of brand
> building if we do change the name, but we need to do it soon, and to
> prepare the ground intelligently.
> 
> 

I do believe that it would damage the project both in terms of
recognition and recovery time. Source code, Documentation, urls, mailing
lists and mindsets will all have to be fixed. Doing this along with the
move out of the repository may mitigate the impact, but there will be
impact.

> I would stress that I'm a great believer in The Apache Way, I have no doubt
> that this will be resolved fairly and to the credit of our community, but
> remember that we should consider the issues before voting and if this issue
> requires a length debate then thats what we will ahve to put up with.

Let the debate begin :-)

Jules

> 
> d.
> 
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
> The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any  responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Lim
ited.
> 
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.
> 
> **************************************************************************
> 


-- 
/**********************************
  * Jules Gosnell
  * Partner
  * Core Developers Network (Europe)
  **********************************/

Re: Why I am opposed to retaining the name Geronimo, and why I consider this VOTE to be biased.

[Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>]

I've tried to keep my mouth shut on this for the most part, but that's 
becoming real hard. I'll promise to restrict myself to one message :D. 
Note I've moved around bits and pieces in Danny's original e-mail and 
also cut some parts out.

Biased Vote
-----------
Danny Angus wrote:
> Responding to comments made about noise on the VOTE thread, and the
> importance of acheiving a reasonable majority for one position over another
> (in order to make the decision clearly mandated) I would like to express my
> opinions regarding the name and the vote.
> 
> 1/ With regard to the vote it appears to me that a vote proposing that we
> either retain the status-quo or opt for an as yet unknown new option will
> always be biased in favour of the status-quo.

agreed...

> I would contend that this issue would have been more fairly decided had a
> nomination process been held for potential alternative names.

...but disagree here. There was a community for this apache-hosted j2ee 
thing before the name was chosen, and that community did make a choice, 
probably using some kind of consensus-based process. I think it is fair 
to bias new decisions based on decisions previously reached. Call it 
"backwards compatibility" if you will.

Nevertheless, I think it is better to focus on satisfying needs and 
finding consensus than on "fairness", especially when the "fairness" we 
talk about is democracy-style and not meritocracy-style. Is it "fair" to 
disregard the choice of the original group that started this project?

<this bit moved from elsewhere/>
 > 3/ On a practical level the current name is causing division, we
 > should be seeking to unite opinion in one way or another, and not
 > pre-empt concesus by holding a vote before the community has had time
 > to reach broad agreement.

Sometimes, it is good to recognize that it is not possible to arrive at 
a broad consensus. I believe that is the case here: I think there's 
quite a few people strongly against keeping the "geronimo" name, and 
quite a few people strongly in favor. In situations like that, a way to 
move forward should be sought. A vote is one such way.

As an aside, I don't think it is neccessarily against the "apache way" 
to conduct this vote now as it is being conducted. One thing I've 
learned about the apache way is that it should not be used as an 
argument. Rather, we should use the arguments behind the "apache way" 
themselves.

Sensitivity of using the "Geronimo" name
----------------------------------------
I got so annoyed with not knowing any facts surrounding all this that I 
spent a few hours surfing. Here's the first and last say I'll have on 
the subject.

> 2/ With regard to the name itself I believe that it would be an expression
> of anglo-saxon imperial arrogance to appropriate a cultural symbol of
> another culture in this way unless it was with the blessing of the culture
> concerned.

"arrogance" is a term that's quite often easily replaced with 
"ignorance" or even "innocence" based on the eye of the beholder. I 
believe the choice of the "geronimo" name had nothing to do with arrogance.

> That we have done it in the past, and that others may also be
> doing it is no defence.

agreed! (to put it in negative connotations, in my western if not 
anglo-saxon arrogance I feel this is a 'universal' principle everyone 
should apply to making decisions. Just like I often prefer rational 
decisions).

> Consider how you would feel should some refrence
> from your cultural history be misappropriated in this way. We are a mixed
> community, from innumerable different backgrounds, surely between us we can
> exhibit some sensitivity.

again, agreed! I agree, too, that it is a good idea to consider the 
needs, desires, cultures, principles, morals, values of others. That is, 
again, something *I* consider a 'universal' principle.

> That there _is_ a feeling in Native American society against this
> misappropriation in general is clearly seen here:

<snip reference/>

The article is a cry to "End racist use of American Indian names, 
images, and religious symbols" from a ms Adamson who has been 'into this 
stuff' for 30 years. Together with other articles on that website, it 
seems pretty clear that there are quite a few American Indians who feel 
that there are "American Indian names, images, and religious symbols" 
being used in a way that constitutes racism. The website does also point 
out that not all American Indians feel that way.

What is not exactly clear to me is when exactly "use of American Indian 
names, images, and religious symbols" becomes racism in the view of the 
author and/or the American Indian people.

Nevertheless, I think it is safe to assume based on the information in 
the article and based on other materials on the referenced website that 
there will be some American Indians who will see the use of the 
"geronimo" name as racist. Furthermore, based on the same information, I 
think its also safe to assume that there will also be American Indians 
who not share that view (for example, I found a reference to a tribe 
that makes heaps of money by 'renting' out their name to a local sports 
team).

I could not find any online reference that talks specifically about the 
feelings of Apache about these issues. Finally, an often quoted 
reference is the book "Dancing at Halftime" which is presumably a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814781276/103-0612950-2283027

The Indian Country newspaper is also a good source for more information, 
though I'll warn everyone that articles on it are of wildly varying quality:

http://www.indiancountry.com/

<this bit moved from elsewhere/>
 > I would stress that I have an open mind about the acceptability
 > of our use of the name, but also I believe that it is not my judgement
 > which counts, it is that of Native American society.

After some research, it seems to me that the "Native American society" 
is as divided as the geronimo project on issues similar to this one. I 
believe it may be impossible to defer to that society for judgement. 
What is clear to me now is that there are at least elements in that 
society that feel the use of the "geronimo" name by this project is 
unacceptable.


Other arguments
---------------
> 4/ Most commercial software is announced and pre-released using a code
> name, a working project name.
> Ours is "Geronimo". I do not believe that we would undo six months of brand
> building if we do change the name, but we need to do it soon, and to
> prepare the ground intelligently.

I believe most commercial software under a code name doesn't receive 
brand building, for good reason. I do believe that we would lose some 
brand building if the project name is changed. If you change the name to 
"Apache Jeep", for example, I'm sure many people that do know what 
"Apache Geronimo" stands for will not know what you're talking about.


My opinion
----------
Sice I think it is highly unlikely that the ASF will get into actual 
trouble by keeping the "geronimo" name (which is something I'd be 
concerned about as an Incubator PMC member, and in general because I 
don't like the ASF being in trouble) and I'm not otherwise an active 
participant in this project, I think my opinion doesn't matter. I trust 
the community to ensure that the/a right decision will be made in the end.

back to my corner!

cheers,

- LSD

Re: Why I am opposed to retaining the name Geronimo, and whi I consider this VOTE to be biased.

[Philip Mark Donaghy <ph...@yahoo.com>]

I agree with Danny. Perhaps it is time that names like
Apache and Geronimo be avoided, scary as that sounds.
I don't believe that The Apache Way could in any way
have an adverse affect on Native Americans, but
encouraging these types of references could bite
Apache in the tail over the long run.

I just thought of a name that applies to one of
Geronimos main functionalities deployment.

Deploymat - As in ejBean Diplomat.

Deployman, Deplywoman, Deployone

British Version : Deploymate

If Geronimo really wants to attract attention the name
should contain a reference to a planet or solar
system.

EjbOfTheUniverse - Playing with the letters ejb

or the most simple thing that exists in science like,

Atom
Electroejb
Hydroejbean - Adapted from Hydrogen
Proton
Neutron

Some really short names...

Jel - I found some great stuff when I googled this.
jEb

Benjamin - my cousins first name.

Sorry if anyone was offended by these names, I'm just
concerned about the well being of this project thats
all.

Phil

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