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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com> on 2013/01/18 12:19:50 UTC
[FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Hey all,
Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
functional AS3 emitter is essential.
Mike
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
And to be completely honest here, so you have the proper expectations;
I usually before starting something like the MXML task, turn up
psychedelic trance music really loud, stare at the screen for a couple
hours, write some code, refactor the code. Stare at it again for about
1 day, look through the falcon compiler source code and api for
another 4 hours. Return to my original code, with the trance music
still playing and finally start writing implementations. ;-)
That's how I do it and why I love not working for a company!
SideNote; My point is, inside I feel there is an answer to every
question in the world. The answer for MXML is waiting patiently to be
found. When the time comes to find it, it will be sitting in front of
us found.
That is why I said, for now I am finishing AS3, because the MXML
solution already exists, except in the future, not right now. ;-) heheh
Mike
Quoting Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>:
>
> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
>> First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
>> sure.
>>
>> Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe guy
>> explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he worked
>> around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff that
>> through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At some
>> point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
>
> Are you talking about producing a Class for the MXML file, then
> parsing the class?
>
> MXML WILL get done. I spent 2 hours last night looking at all the
> HACKING Alex had to do, to get it "working".
>
> Mike
>
>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>> Erik,
>>>
>>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order. This
>>> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and skipping
>>> things they should finish. 10 years experience with this stuff and various
>>> architectures tells me finish the foundation before we do anything
>>> else that
>>> is external to the core cross compiler.
>>>
>>> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is an
>>> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>>>
>>> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>>>
>>> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything here I
>>> just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>>>
>>>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>>>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
>>>> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> EdB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great cooperation,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of the
>>>>> ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>
>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance
>>>>> to
>>>>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the road
>>>>> to
>>>>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>>>>> essential.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>
>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>
>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/19/13 8:15 AM, "Frank Wienberg" <fr...@jangaroo.net> wrote:
> After some time off, I just became aware of this discussion, and it has
> already become quite longish, so please forgive me if I missed or
> misunderstood some arguments.
>
> That said, my understanding of MXML is that it is just another (for some
> use cases more convenient) syntax to write an ActionScript class. From
> MXML, you can use any other AS class that has a no-arg constructor and
> properties, and from AS, MXML components can be referenced like normal
> classes, too. When using a component library, you do not even know whether
> the components were written in AS or MXML.
All true.
> An MXML component can inherit
> from an AS class and vice versa.
Mostly true, there are some restrictions and pain points.
> I find this mix-and-match approach very
> charming. And if that is the correct semantics, I don't see any reason to
> not generate JavaScript code from the (temporary) AS class generated from
> MXML.
I believe compilation speed is the main reason Falcon goes straight to ABC.
It should also let us hand optimize certain patterns.
>
> Now in this thread, I read that you should not generate an ActionScript
> class / JavaScript from MXML, but instead a data structure that gets
> instantiated into a component (later). That sounds like a similar approach
> to Ext JS, where they use object literals with "xtypes" as component
> descriptors, which can then be instantiated into "real" components as
> needed. Sounds good, too, and indeed has some advantages ("lazy"
> components), but how does that go together with the "old" approach of MXML?
It is still a class, but instead of mapping MXML tags to methods, I'm
generating an array of values. Object literals are too slow, at least in
AS. The old MXML generated code generated a lot of methods and if we needed
to change the code in those methods, we had to change the compiler. Falcon
has a chance of being more version independent if it just generated data
instead of code, and developers don't have to learn how to build the
compiler to change the behavior of the SDK.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frank Wienberg <fr...@jangaroo.net>.
After some time off, I just became aware of this discussion, and it has
already become quite longish, so please forgive me if I missed or
misunderstood some arguments.
That said, my understanding of MXML is that it is just another (for some
use cases more convenient) syntax to write an ActionScript class. From
MXML, you can use any other AS class that has a no-arg constructor and
properties, and from AS, MXML components can be referenced like normal
classes, too. When using a component library, you do not even know whether
the components were written in AS or MXML. An MXML component can inherit
from an AS class and vice versa. I find this mix-and-match approach very
charming. And if that is the correct semantics, I don't see any reason to
not generate JavaScript code from the (temporary) AS class generated from
MXML.
Now in this thread, I read that you should not generate an ActionScript
class / JavaScript from MXML, but instead a data structure that gets
instantiated into a component (later). That sounds like a similar approach
to Ext JS, where they use object literals with "xtypes" as component
descriptors, which can then be instantiated into "real" components as
needed. Sounds good, too, and indeed has some advantages ("lazy"
components), but how does that go together with the "old" approach of MXML?
Or is my understanding wrong? How would you use an MXML component from AS3
code if it is not a class? Can you still "mix and match"?
Hoping someone can shed light on all of this,
*-Frank-*
RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Gordon Smith <go...@adobe.com>:
>> I thought you said MXML shouldn't be used to create javascript.
>
> I don't have a clear recollection. I was probably recommending that
> MXML be converted into a data structure or a bytestream that would
> get interpreted by a small bit of JavaScript (or any other
> language). This is what Alex has been recommending, rather than
> turning MXML into JavaScript source code. (It's conceptually similar
> to the old approach of generating UIComponentDescriptors in early
> version of Flex, which could then be instantiated into actualy
> component instances.) But if you prefer to turn MXML into JavaScirpt
> source code, it should be straightforward to do that. The
> MXMLClassDirectiveProcessor is a simple recursive descent through
> the MXML AST. The main complexity is that it can't simply generate a
> continuous stream of code in tree order. For example, an attribute
> value that is a databinding expression has to generate all sorts of
> extra stuff like Watcher instances in other places.
>
> - Gordon
>
Ok I think I see where things went wrong in my head, thanks for the
clarifications. What Alex is doing right now is basically what you
said, he is making javascript but as descriptors and that is what I
was thinking as well.
So I guess everything is straight in my head, I was correct in you
saying there is really no value in converting MXML to a javascript
class based on the MXML itself. It worth creating descriptors that get
initialized which I what Alex is currently doing with his
implementation.
This is what I will copy for now using the walker/visitor pattern I
have been using.
Thanks again Gordon, let me reiterate, it has been a pleasure using
your compiler framework. :)
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Gordon Smith <go...@adobe.com>.
> I thought you said MXML shouldn't be used to create javascript.
I don't have a clear recollection. I was probably recommending that MXML be converted into a data structure or a bytestream that would get interpreted by a small bit of JavaScript (or any other language). This is what Alex has been recommending, rather than turning MXML into JavaScript source code. (It's conceptually similar to the old approach of generating UIComponentDescriptors in early version of Flex, which could then be instantiated into actualy component instances.) But if you prefer to turn MXML into JavaScirpt source code, it should be straightforward to do that. The MXMLClassDirectiveProcessor is a simple recursive descent through the MXML AST. The main complexity is that it can't simply generate a continuous stream of code in tree order. For example, an attribute value that is a databinding expression has to generate all sorts of extra stuff like Watcher instances in other places.
- Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Schmalle [mailto:apache@teotigraphix.com]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:27 AM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Quoting Gordon Smith <go...@adobe.com>:
>> There needs to be an intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data
>> structure AFTER the AST. (I guess)
>
> I don't see why you would need to transform the MXML AST into yet
> another model. There are already two models for MXML and they should
> be sufficient.
>
> The syntactic model produced from the MXML tokens is MXMLData. Like
> any XML DOM, it simply represents the nesting of the tags, their
> attributes, and the text inside, without attributing any meaning to
> anything.
>
> The semantic model for MXML is the MXML AST, which has determined what
> every tag, attribute, and piece of text means. For example, it has
> understood that when you write <s:Button label="OK" color="red"
> click="doit()"/> you are creating an instance of
> spark.components.Button, setting the label property to "OK", setting
> the color style to 0xFF0000, and adding an event handler to handler
> the click event. The MXML tree captures every piece of semantic
> information that was in the MXML file.
>
> - Gordon
>
Gordon, this conversation is getting really diluted but I agree entirely that the model existing is great and will work.
I misunderstood something you said a while back in a conversation with Alex. I thought you said MXML shouldn't be used to create javascript.
Maybe you meant using it to mimic views or something? Can you elaborate, do you remember.
Mike
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Gordon Smith <go...@adobe.com>:
>> There needs to be an intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML
>> data structure AFTER the AST. (I guess)
>
> I don't see why you would need to transform the MXML AST into yet
> another model. There are already two models for MXML and they should
> be sufficient.
>
> The syntactic model produced from the MXML tokens is MXMLData. Like
> any XML DOM, it simply represents the nesting of the tags, their
> attributes, and the text inside, without attributing any meaning to
> anything.
>
> The semantic model for MXML is the MXML AST, which has determined
> what every tag, attribute, and piece of text means. For example, it
> has understood that when you write <s:Button label="OK" color="red"
> click="doit()"/> you are creating an instance of
> spark.components.Button, setting the label property to "OK", setting
> the color style to 0xFF0000, and adding an event handler to handler
> the click event. The MXML tree captures every piece of semantic
> information that was in the MXML file.
>
> - Gordon
>
Gordon, this conversation is getting really diluted but I agree
entirely that the model existing is great and will work.
I misunderstood something you said a while back in a conversation with
Alex. I thought you said MXML shouldn't be used to create javascript.
Maybe you meant using it to mimic views or something? Can you
elaborate, do you remember.
Mike
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Gordon Smith <go...@adobe.com>.
> There needs to be an intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data structure AFTER the AST. (I guess)
I don't see why you would need to transform the MXML AST into yet another model. There are already two models for MXML and they should be sufficient.
The syntactic model produced from the MXML tokens is MXMLData. Like any XML DOM, it simply represents the nesting of the tags, their attributes, and the text inside, without attributing any meaning to anything.
The semantic model for MXML is the MXML AST, which has determined what every tag, attribute, and piece of text means. For example, it has understood that when you write <s:Button label="OK" color="red" click="doit()"/> you are creating an instance of spark.components.Button, setting the label property to "OK", setting the color style to 0xFF0000, and adding an event handler to handler the click event. The MXML tree captures every piece of semantic information that was in the MXML file.
- Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Schmalle [mailto:apache@teotigraphix.com]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:21 AM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
No, the Falcon compiler turns MXML AST into straight ABC instructions.
This is why Alex had to do majic with the MXMLClassDirectiveProccessor. So right now, there is no working translation of MXML into a Class file.
Also this has been brought up between Alex and Gordon that doing a straight conversion is not a good plan. There needs to be an intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data structure AFTER the AST. (I guess)
This would mean using the model to traverse and emit, not the AST.
Again, I am a very opinionated person and when I start to think about MXML and how to translate it, I will come up with what I think works using whatever means that requires, whether it's traversing the AST or creating and intermediate model.
We will see.
Mike
Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
> Didn't the 'old' compiler (pre-Falcon) translate MXML into
> intermediate AS and offer the option to safe those intermediate files?
> I think that the presentation guy used these intermediate files
> (classes, I'm sure) instead of the actual MXML to get his prototype to
> work. I'm however not sure if Falcon has a similar option (save AS
> translation of MXML), so that might not be a option anymore.
>
> Just thinking out loud, while working on getting some more ToDo's out
> of the way :-)
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Michael Schmalle
> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>
>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
>>> First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
>>> sure.
>>>
>>> Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe
>>> guy explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he
>>> worked around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff
>>> that through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At
>>> some point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
>>
>>
>> Are you talking about producing a Class for the MXML file, then
>> parsing the class?
>>
>> MXML WILL get done. I spent 2 hours last night looking at all the
>> HACKING Alex had to do, to get it "working".
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>> EdB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Erik,
>>>>
>>>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
>>>> This
>>>> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and
>>>> skipping things they should finish. 10 years experience with this
>>>> stuff and various architectures tells me finish the foundation
>>>> before we do anything else that is external to the core cross
>>>> compiler.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business
>>>> is an
>>>> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>>>>
>>>> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>>>>
>>>> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything
>>>> here I just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>>>>
>>>>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>>>>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the
>>>>> two other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> EdB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and
>>>>>> that is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have
>>>>>> plans down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a
>>>>>> fully functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>>
>>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>
>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>
>>> T. 06-51952295
>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>:
>
>
>>
>> Either do I, the way I see it is we traverse the MXML AST. I just have
>> to look at what you have done to know what "state" needs to be saved
>> as we are walking the MXML AST.
> I think all "state" is kept as a variables in the "Context" class. The
> "state" is mostly trying to remember what the parent nodes are. I assume
> there is some other convention for doing that in the visitors?
There is no state in the visitors, I use the IDefinition API to get
what I need, which is a model but, I never save state in a visitor.
Mike
>>
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
>
> Either do I, the way I see it is we traverse the MXML AST. I just have
> to look at what you have done to know what "state" needs to be saved
> as we are walking the MXML AST.
I think all "state" is kept as a variables in the "Context" class. The
"state" is mostly trying to remember what the parent nodes are. I assume
there is some other convention for doing that in the visitors?
>
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>:
>
>
>
> On 1/18/13 4:21 AM, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
>> No, the Falcon compiler turns MXML AST into straight ABC instructions.
>>
>> This is why Alex had to do majic with the
>> MXMLClassDirectiveProccessor. So right now, there is no working
>> translation of MXML into a Class file.
>>
>> Also this has been brought up between Alex and Gordon that doing a
>> straight conversion is not a good plan. There needs to be an
>> intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data structure AFTER the
>> AST. (I guess)
> I don't think that there needs to be an intermediate model. The main reason
> for going from MXML to ABC was speed. One of the things Falcon will not
> support is a true -keep-generated-actionscript option. That's one of the
> reasons I am trying to alter MXML output so it generates more data and less
> code so your need to see the output as AS is greatly reduced.
Either do I, the way I see it is we traverse the MXML AST. I just have
to look at what you have done to know what "state" needs to be saved
as we are walking the MXML AST.
If you look at the MXMLFileNode, it has everything wee need and the
MXMLTreeBuilder does all the work as far as I can see.
I think I was getting confused as to what you and Gordon were talking about.
>>
>> This would mean using the model to traverse and emit, not the AST.
>> Again, I am a very opinionated person and when I start to think about
>> MXML and how to translate it, I will come up with what I think works
>> using whatever means that requires, whether it's traversing the AST or
>> creating and intermediate model.
>>
> I may be missing something, but I think the MXMLClassDirectiveProcessor is
> walking the AST not some intermediate model. What it does is a bit tricky
> because it is trying to flatten the tree into the data array and use the
> same APIs (of passing around Contexts). I haven't looked at your walker
> recently, but it might be simpler to implement in the walker/visitor
> pattern.
I am almost certain the walker/visitor will work just fine, this is
prompting me to test a prototype. It's bugging me not knowing the full
story, I have to setup a test and see what you did and mimic it, then
we will have the exact answer.
Looks like I know what I am doing for the next 5 hours today, I said I
wouldn't but its bothering me to much. :)
Mike
> -
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/18/13 4:21 AM, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
> No, the Falcon compiler turns MXML AST into straight ABC instructions.
>
> This is why Alex had to do majic with the
> MXMLClassDirectiveProccessor. So right now, there is no working
> translation of MXML into a Class file.
>
> Also this has been brought up between Alex and Gordon that doing a
> straight conversion is not a good plan. There needs to be an
> intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data structure AFTER the
> AST. (I guess)
I don't think that there needs to be an intermediate model. The main reason
for going from MXML to ABC was speed. One of the things Falcon will not
support is a true -keep-generated-actionscript option. That's one of the
reasons I am trying to alter MXML output so it generates more data and less
code so your need to see the output as AS is greatly reduced.
>
> This would mean using the model to traverse and emit, not the AST.
> Again, I am a very opinionated person and when I start to think about
> MXML and how to translate it, I will come up with what I think works
> using whatever means that requires, whether it's traversing the AST or
> creating and intermediate model.
>
I may be missing something, but I think the MXMLClassDirectiveProcessor is
walking the AST not some intermediate model. What it does is a bit tricky
because it is trying to flatten the tree into the data array and use the
same APIs (of passing around Contexts). I haven't looked at your walker
recently, but it might be simpler to implement in the walker/visitor
pattern.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
No, the Falcon compiler turns MXML AST into straight ABC instructions.
This is why Alex had to do majic with the
MXMLClassDirectiveProccessor. So right now, there is no working
translation of MXML into a Class file.
Also this has been brought up between Alex and Gordon that doing a
straight conversion is not a good plan. There needs to be an
intermediate "model" that can hold the MXML data structure AFTER the
AST. (I guess)
This would mean using the model to traverse and emit, not the AST.
Again, I am a very opinionated person and when I start to think about
MXML and how to translate it, I will come up with what I think works
using whatever means that requires, whether it's traversing the AST or
creating and intermediate model.
We will see.
Mike
Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
> Didn't the 'old' compiler (pre-Falcon) translate MXML into
> intermediate AS and offer the option to safe those intermediate files?
> I think that the presentation guy used these intermediate files
> (classes, I'm sure) instead of the actual MXML to get his prototype to
> work. I'm however not sure if Falcon has a similar option (save AS
> translation of MXML), so that might not be a option anymore.
>
> Just thinking out loud, while working on getting some more ToDo's out
> of the way :-)
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Michael Schmalle
> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>
>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
>>> First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
>>> sure.
>>>
>>> Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe guy
>>> explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he worked
>>> around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff that
>>> through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At some
>>> point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
>>
>>
>> Are you talking about producing a Class for the MXML file, then parsing the
>> class?
>>
>> MXML WILL get done. I spent 2 hours last night looking at all the HACKING
>> Alex had to do, to get it "working".
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>> EdB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Erik,
>>>>
>>>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
>>>> This
>>>> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and
>>>> skipping
>>>> things they should finish. 10 years experience with this stuff and
>>>> various
>>>> architectures tells me finish the foundation before we do anything else
>>>> that
>>>> is external to the core cross compiler.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is an
>>>> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>>>>
>>>> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>>>>
>>>> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything here I
>>>> just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>>>>
>>>>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>>>>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
>>>>> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> EdB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>> cooperation,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the
>>>>>> road
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>>>>>> essential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>>
>>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>
>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>
>>> T. 06-51952295
>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
RE: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by "Michael A. Labriola" <la...@digitalprimates.net>.
>Didn't the 'old' compiler (pre-Falcon) translate MXML into intermediate AS and offer the option to safe those intermediate files?
>I think that the presentation guy used these intermediate files (classes, I'm sure) instead of the actual MXML to get his prototype to work. I'm however not sure if Falcon has a similar option >(save AS translation of MXML), so that might not be a option anymore.
No, what they were actually doing is using the existing mxmlc with the -keep option to translate MXML to AS. Then they would take all of generated AS, including it in a project with the other ActionScript and try to give it a go with FalconJs. There are some other details too on SVG, etc. but that's the gist.
Mike
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Didn't the 'old' compiler (pre-Falcon) translate MXML into
intermediate AS and offer the option to safe those intermediate files?
I think that the presentation guy used these intermediate files
(classes, I'm sure) instead of the actual MXML to get his prototype to
work. I'm however not sure if Falcon has a similar option (save AS
translation of MXML), so that might not be a option anymore.
Just thinking out loud, while working on getting some more ToDo's out
of the way :-)
EdB
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Michael Schmalle
<ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
>> First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
>> sure.
>>
>> Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe guy
>> explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he worked
>> around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff that
>> through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At some
>> point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
>
>
> Are you talking about producing a Class for the MXML file, then parsing the
> class?
>
> MXML WILL get done. I spent 2 hours last night looking at all the HACKING
> Alex had to do, to get it "working".
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Erik,
>>>
>>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
>>> This
>>> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and
>>> skipping
>>> things they should finish. 10 years experience with this stuff and
>>> various
>>> architectures tells me finish the foundation before we do anything else
>>> that
>>> is external to the core cross compiler.
>>>
>>> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is an
>>> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>>>
>>> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>>>
>>> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything here I
>>> just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>>>
>>>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>>>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
>>>> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> EdB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>> cooperation,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of
>>>>> the
>>>>> ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>
>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance
>>>>> to
>>>>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the
>>>>> road
>>>>> to
>>>>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>>>>> essential.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>
>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>
>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
> Mike,
>
> I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
> First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
> sure.
>
> Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe guy
> explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he worked
> around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff that
> through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At some
> point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
Are you talking about producing a Class for the MXML file, then
parsing the class?
MXML WILL get done. I spent 2 hours last night looking at all the
HACKING Alex had to do, to get it "working".
Mike
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>> Erik,
>>
>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order. This
>> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and skipping
>> things they should finish. 10 years experience with this stuff and various
>> architectures tells me finish the foundation before we do anything else that
>> is external to the core cross compiler.
>>
>> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is an
>> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>>
>> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>>
>> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything here I
>> just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>>
>>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>>
>>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
>>> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> EdB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great cooperation,
>>>> I
>>>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of the
>>>> ActionScript emitter.
>>>>
>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance
>>>> to
>>>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the road
>>>> to
>>>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>>>> essential.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>
>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>
>>> T. 06-51952295
>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Mike,
I'm not trying to get you to do stuff, certainly not 'out of order'.
First things first, and we'll have our hands full on AS -> JS, to be
sure.
Just thinking out loud: at some point I saw a video where an Adobe guy
explained one of the early FalconJS prototypes (Pete?) and he worked
around MXML by using intermediary MXML -> AS output and stuff that
through his compiler, instead of working directly on MXML. At some
point (after all else is said and done), might that be an option?
EdB
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Schmalle
<ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
> Erik,
>
> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order. This
> is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners and skipping
> things they should finish. 10 years experience with this stuff and various
> architectures tells me finish the foundation before we do anything else that
> is external to the core cross compiler.
>
> Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is an
> AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
>
> I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
>
> As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything here I
> just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>>
>> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
>> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>>
>> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
>> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
>> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great cooperation,
>>> I
>>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of the
>>> ActionScript emitter.
>>>
>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance
>>> to
>>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the road
>>> to
>>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>>> essential.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>:
>
>
>
> On 1/18/13 3:49 AM, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
>> Erik,
>>
>> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
>> This is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners
>> and skipping things they should finish. 10 years experience with this
>> stuff and various architectures tells me finish the foundation before
>> we do anything else that is external to the core cross compiler.
> Fair enough, and you can do whatever you want in whatever order, but to me,
> finishing all of AS is not just the foundation, it is a fully grown tree.
> That's why I've taken the approach of doing just enough AS and MXML to get
> the demo to run. Why spend time now on AS constructs not used by the
> framework? Sure there's a chance some later construct will expose a flaw in
> the current implementation, but the implementation has to show
> flexibility/extensibility in case we want to "extend" AS in the future. I'd
> rather get enough stuff running so others can play with it and get excited
> about helping out, and most folks can help in the AS/MXML department, not in
> the Java/AST/compiler area.
See my last reply, I concede, I agree that actually FalconJx con do
enough right now that it warrants my attention in MXML.
If my calculations are correct, this will be no harder than what I
just did with the AS traversal, maybe even easier since I'm not
dealing with statements and expressions.
So, to reiterate, I hear what you are saying loud and clear, I will
work on the MXML to produce what you did so there is the possibility
for things to "play" with that would stimulate community involvement
and help shape the future of whatever is going to be.
Mike
> Anyway, I'm finishing up some mustella stuff for mobile, but after that I'm
> going to add more UI widgets and a lightweight HTTPService to the ASJS
> framework so I can code up simple form-type apps in MXML that run without
> Flash. Then I might be able to help out on the MXML for FalconJX depending
> on whether I get other folks to join in coding the framework.
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/18/13 3:49 AM, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
> Erik,
>
> MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
> This is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners
> and skipping things they should finish. 10 years experience with this
> stuff and various architectures tells me finish the foundation before
> we do anything else that is external to the core cross compiler.
Fair enough, and you can do whatever you want in whatever order, but to me,
finishing all of AS is not just the foundation, it is a fully grown tree.
That's why I've taken the approach of doing just enough AS and MXML to get
the demo to run. Why spend time now on AS constructs not used by the
framework? Sure there's a chance some later construct will expose a flaw in
the current implementation, but the implementation has to show
flexibility/extensibility in case we want to "extend" AS in the future. I'd
rather get enough stuff running so others can play with it and get excited
about helping out, and most folks can help in the AS/MXML department, not in
the Java/AST/compiler area.
Anyway, I'm finishing up some mustella stuff for mobile, but after that I'm
going to add more UI widgets and a lightweight HTTPService to the ASJS
framework so I can code up simple form-type apps in MXML that run without
Flash. Then I might be able to help out on the MXML for FalconJX depending
on whether I get other folks to join in coding the framework.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Erik,
MXML comes after ActionScript. Sorry but I have to do things in order.
This is where projects go wrong, where people start cutting corners
and skipping things they should finish. 10 years experience with this
stuff and various architectures tells me finish the foundation before
we do anything else that is external to the core cross compiler.
Remember, MXML is not ActionScript and the first order of business is
an AS3->JS cross compiler, MXML is Flex specific.
I have a flaming blog post on deck about this project.
As far as doing things with AST IE MXML AST, I can manage anything
here I just need to finish something before I completely focus on MXML.
Mike
Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
> Mike,
>
> how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
>
> wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
> FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
>
> I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
> other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
>
> Thanks,
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
> <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great cooperation, I
>> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of the
>> ActionScript emitter.
>>
>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance to
>> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the road to
>> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
>> essential.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Mike,
how does that relate to MXML (if at all...)?
wrt. MXML, will you (someone) be able to take what Alex did for
FalconJS and put that in FalconJx, or does it not work like that?
I'm trying to get a feeling for where we are in relation to the two
other Falcons and MXML seems to be a big thing for both of them...
Thanks,
EdB
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Michael Schmalle
<ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great cooperation, I
> am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that is finishing of the
> ActionScript emitter.
>
> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a chance to
> fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans down the road to
> make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully functional AS3 emitter is
> essential.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/21/13 5:21 PM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
> >>
> >> In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little
> >> chunks
> >> I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
> >> three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
> >>
> >
> > I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think
> it
> > deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that it
> > is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
> Well, I called that to show that it is a parallel framework. That we build
> both AS and JS beads. But I don't care to much about what we end up
> calling
> it.
> > Second, it deserves its own wiki page.
> Well, I think there is one:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>
I meant a separate wiki page describing the framework alone. The
cross-compilation to JS could be in a separate page. Not a big deal, but I
thought the new framework needs to be its own thing.
> > The reason is: I see this as a clean way to start implementing a new
> Flex
> > framework. The effort that you, Michael.S and Erik have undertaken to
> make
> > it work in HTML/JS can work in parallel with a Starling/GPU based View
> for
> > the same new Flex framework.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
> >> calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
> >>
> >
> > This makes a lot of sense. Except that Starling's APIs tries to mimic
> the
> > current Flash Player's display list paradigm. I need to spend some time
> > trying to figure out how I can tie these things up. Any thoughts?
> Did you see the thread today where someone else proposed an alternative to
> Starling? Starling may not be the best way to get at stage3D/gpu. Any
> emulation of the display list is likely to cost more cycles than one tuned
> to the platform. Do we really need a display list at all? If not, then
> don't use one.
>
I believe you are talking about MadComponents? They still draw on the
display list, rasterize it and upload it as a texture to Stage3D. I am not
very well versed in MadComponents, but I will definitely give it a shot.
I believe that Starling makes things easier for us to work with as it
abstracts a lot of the Stage3D complexity. I am not ready to rule out
Starling yet.
Coupling this with the new Query Graphics Data API in FP 11.6, there is an
interesting possibility of being able to draw vector graphics directly via
the GPU (again by drawing on the display list first):
http://blog.bwhiting.co.uk/?p=423
> >
> >
> >>
> >> So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
> >> starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
> >>
> >
> > This is the part that excites me most. I will start writing an
> > implementation of your framework with a Starling based view. I might
> have
> > to a new implementation of Application.as.
> In my view of the world, there will be many packages with different flavors
> of Applications, components and beads.
> >
> > Do you mind if I pollute the asjs directory with my code, or would you
> > prefer that I do it on my whiteboard?
> I think you can do it directly in the asjs directory if you organize the
> packages in a reasonable way.
>
Okay. I will propose something once we figure out the naming issue.
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling.
> >
> >
> > I think that is a good thing. The more clearer the separation there is
> > between the rest of the framework and the render specific stuff, the
> better
> > for everyone.
> >
> >
> >> I still need convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast
> >> majority of
> >> business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS
> >> code
> >> or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I
> do
> >> want to tackle in this new framework.
> >
> >
> > My take on this is: I have worked on so many data intensive applications
> > where performance goes for a toss when the framework is trying to draw
> too
> > many things on the screen.
> OK, but did you put in the profiler? Did [render] actually show up or is
> other code running instead?
>
I did not test the profiler with my work on the iPad (1 and 2). I will try
to put up a test harness and test it across hardware and devices. Yet
another thing on my todo list.
> > Utilizing the GPU (especially on mobile) would
> > definitely make a difference.
> Again, do you have empirical evidence? It makes sense for sprite sheets in
> a game, but I don't understand what kind of visualization you are doing in
> your business apps that is similar.
>
The app I worked was a web-to-print kind of an application. Basically
allowing the user to add a elements on a page (bitmaps, vector art, text,
filters, etc.) and allows the user to manipulate each element individually,
align, size etc. Imagine Adobe Indesign on the web and tablet. The
biggest pain point was when I selected a single element and simply moved it
across the screen. It was extremely sluggish. I solved this problem by
bringing the selected object to the top of the display list and rasterized
everything behind it. So it was basically just two objects on the screen.
This fix alone improved the app's performance by a magnitude.
>From what I have seen, MadComponents does something similar, except that
the rasters are rendered via the GPU. That is an approach I want to try as
well.
>
> > For legacy hardware, things would fallback
> > to to a software engine anyways, so what is the harm in trying this out?
> No harm, if this is your itch, you are welcome to scratch it, but I am all
> about expectation management. So if it were me I would use profiler data
> to
> set expectations. One of my goals of the new framework is to try to apply
> simple principles of just-in-time and on-demand so the SDK doesn't waste
> cycles for just-in-case stuff like it does now. That alone might give you
> the performance boost you are looking for.
>
Point taken. I will work on a test harness first.
But I also consider this as an opportunity to take advantage of the latest
features of the Flash Player and including (hopefully) whatever Flash
Player 12 and AS4 would throw at us.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the
> falcon/trunk/compiler.js
> >> folder. The latest ASJS framework is in
> asjs/branches/develop/framework,
> >> and the example that uses it is in
> >> asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > As I said earlier, it would be fantastic if you could split the new
> > framework into separate directory and not throw it in along with ASJS.
> Does
> > that make sense?
> Well, you can argue for a different name for the folder, but its ability to
> have a parallel JS framework is highly important and one of the major
> design/implementation constraints, so I like the idea there is an as folder
> next to the js folder in SVN. If your work turns out to be just
> alternative
> skins, that can be managed in a separate package or folder. For now, I
> think you should just start sticking in code and see what we end up with
> then we can figure out a better organization later when we understand what
> we have.
>
>
Thanks,
Om
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> Erik,
>
> I think having a separate folder off root will make it hard to maintain the
> parallel-ism. That would be two different SVN projects to figure out how
> to
> release together, and two different checkins to keep things in sync.
>
> In my vision, the new framework does need to allow for alternative
> implementations like Om is doing, not all of which need to have an exact JS
> equivalent if an existing JS equivalent is sufficient.
>
> One way would be to add a third folder next to as and js. We could just
> call in "om" for now, or maybe "gpu".
>
> But as long as the files he adds doesn't mess up what we're doing, I don't
> think it should matter too much right now. We're all in experimenting
> mode.
>
>
Except that the name ASJS is misleading, the way it is currently set up.
I dont want this to cause confusion and prevent people from contributing to
this new framework because they are not interested in a JS specific
solution.
Either we rename ASJS to something else, or we split it up into two top
level projects. I am fine with either option.
Thanks,
Om
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:40 AM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> Om,
>
> I see your point. Here's mine: Alex's new framework has an AS and a JS
> part. Currently projects build using his AS part are compiled with
> FalconJS to run in the browser using his JS framework. Alex has named
> his framework combo FlexJS. I think that name (FlexJS) should be
> revisited as that framework clearly has more uses than enabling JS
> output.
>
> You are 'only' interested in the AS part of FlexJS. My suggestion
> would be that you and Alex move the AS framework out of the asjs tree
> into it's own root *AlexFlex*. This leaves only JS frameworks (with
> the JS part of FlexJS chief among them) in 'asjs/../frameworks/js', so
> these JS frameworks could move up one level.
>
> The new situation should look something like this (hoping it isn't
> wrapped to pieces by the various email clients):
>
> root
> |
> - asjs
> |
> - branches
> |
> - develop
> |
> - examples
> |
> - frameworks
> |
> - *FlexJS* (the JS part)
> |
> - VanillaSDK
> |
> - publisher
> - *AlexFlex*
> |
> - branches
> |
> - develop
> |
> - frameworks
> |
> - *FlexJS* (the AS part)
> |
> - *OM_GPU_MAGIC*
>
>
> That way, everything that has to do with AS -> JS cross compilation
> can stay in 'asjs' (which is a fitting name), and anything that has to
> do with Alex's new AS framework goes into the new location.
>
> Makes sense?
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> > http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
> > etc.
> >
> > lets make it (replace *AlexFlex *with whatever codename you want to):
> >
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
> > etc.
> >
> > This way, I can go in and add something like:
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/stage3d/
> >
> > alongside
> >
> >
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/html/
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
Erik,
I think having a separate folder off root will make it hard to maintain the
parallel-ism. That would be two different SVN projects to figure out how to
release together, and two different checkins to keep things in sync.
In my vision, the new framework does need to allow for alternative
implementations like Om is doing, not all of which need to have an exact JS
equivalent if an existing JS equivalent is sufficient.
One way would be to add a third folder next to as and js. We could just
call in "om" for now, or maybe "gpu".
But as long as the files he adds doesn't mess up what we're doing, I don't
think it should matter too much right now. We're all in experimenting mode.
On 1/22/13 2:40 AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> Om,
>
> I see your point. Here's mine: Alex's new framework has an AS and a JS
> part. Currently projects build using his AS part are compiled with
> FalconJS to run in the browser using his JS framework. Alex has named
> his framework combo FlexJS. I think that name (FlexJS) should be
> revisited as that framework clearly has more uses than enabling JS
> output.
>
> You are 'only' interested in the AS part of FlexJS. My suggestion
> would be that you and Alex move the AS framework out of the asjs tree
> into it's own root *AlexFlex*. This leaves only JS frameworks (with
> the JS part of FlexJS chief among them) in 'asjs/../frameworks/js', so
> these JS frameworks could move up one level.
>
> The new situation should look something like this (hoping it isn't
> wrapped to pieces by the various email clients):
>
> root
> |
> - asjs
> |
> - branches
> |
> - develop
> |
> - examples
> |
> - frameworks
> |
> - *FlexJS* (the JS part)
> |
> - VanillaSDK
> |
> - publisher
> - *AlexFlex*
> |
> - branches
> |
> - develop
> |
> - frameworks
> |
> - *FlexJS* (the AS part)
> |
> - *OM_GPU_MAGIC*
>
>
> That way, everything that has to do with AS -> JS cross compilation
> can stay in 'asjs' (which is a fitting name), and anything that has to
> do with Alex's new AS framework goes into the new location.
>
> Makes sense?
>
> EdB
>
>
>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJ
>> S/
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/Vanil
>> laSDK/
>> etc.
>>
>> lets make it (replace *AlexFlex *with whatever codename you want to):
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/F
>> lexJS/
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/V
>> anillaSDK/
>> etc.
>>
>> This way, I can go in and add something like:
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/s
>> rc/org/apache/flex/stage3d/
>>
>> alongside
>>
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/s
>> rc/org/apache/flex/html/
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Om,
I see your point. Here's mine: Alex's new framework has an AS and a JS
part. Currently projects build using his AS part are compiled with
FalconJS to run in the browser using his JS framework. Alex has named
his framework combo FlexJS. I think that name (FlexJS) should be
revisited as that framework clearly has more uses than enabling JS
output.
You are 'only' interested in the AS part of FlexJS. My suggestion
would be that you and Alex move the AS framework out of the asjs tree
into it's own root *AlexFlex*. This leaves only JS frameworks (with
the JS part of FlexJS chief among them) in 'asjs/../frameworks/js', so
these JS frameworks could move up one level.
The new situation should look something like this (hoping it isn't
wrapped to pieces by the various email clients):
root
|
- asjs
|
- branches
|
- develop
|
- examples
|
- frameworks
|
- *FlexJS* (the JS part)
|
- VanillaSDK
|
- publisher
- *AlexFlex*
|
- branches
|
- develop
|
- frameworks
|
- *FlexJS* (the AS part)
|
- *OM_GPU_MAGIC*
That way, everything that has to do with AS -> JS cross compilation
can stay in 'asjs' (which is a fitting name), and anything that has to
do with Alex's new AS framework goes into the new location.
Makes sense?
EdB
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
> etc.
>
> lets make it (replace *AlexFlex *with whatever codename you want to):
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
> etc.
>
> This way, I can go in and add something like:
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/stage3d/
>
> alongside
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/html/
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >> I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think
> it
> >> deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that
> it
> >> is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
> > Well, I called that to show that it is a parallel framework. That we
> build
> > both AS and JS beads. But I don't care to much about what we end up
> calling
> > it.
>
> Well, I do care. There are 2 naming conventions I think are working
> well right now: the intended use of a framework decides the first:
> ASJS stands for Actionscript to JavaScript, exactly what the
> frameworks and tools in there do.
There is a brand new framework in there that has nothing to do with JS
[1]. In fact, Alex has envisioned this new framework in a way that it does
not know where it is going to be run on. My proposal is to have a
directory structure that clearly separates the concerns.
> The second is the approach taken
> when going from AS to JS: first there is FlexJS, Alex's set of bottom
> up, start from scratch frameworks (one for AS and one for JS), and
> then there is VanillaSDK, my attempt at a top down, use the Flex SDK
> and write a complimentary JS framework approach.
>
> ASJS is also the home of the Publisher I'm writing, which will take
> either framework (FlexJS and VanillaSDK) and use it and it's
> dependencies to build an AS/MXML project into a HTML/JS project, again
> AS -> JS.
>
> I don't mind renaming/rebranding things, especially is something is
> gained by doing so (even if it's only better marketing), but we should
> take care not to end up with a too generic naming convention just
> trying to fit too many projects under one roof.
>
I agree with everything you are saying. But please hear me out. This is
what I am proposing: Instead of it being:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*
/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*asjs*
/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
etc.
lets make it (replace *AlexFlex *with whatever codename you want to):
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*
/branches/develop/frameworks/js/FlexJS/
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*
/branches/develop/frameworks/js/VanillaSDK/
etc.
This way, I can go in and add something like:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*
/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/stage3d/
alongside
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/*AlexFlex*
/branches/develop/frameworks/as/src/org/apache/flex/html/
Do you see where I am going with this? My goal (if a bit naive) is to tag
along with this new framework and explore how best we can start rendering
stuff using the GPU. Having a source tree with the term "asjs" and working
on Flash player specific stuff - that can never be replicated in JS or
HTML5 sounds like a bad idea to me. Hence the request.
If you have an alternative to what I am trying to achieve, I am all ears.
Thanks,
Om
> EdB
>
>
>
[1] http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/flex/asjs/branches/develop/frameworks/as/
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Hi,
>> I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think it
>> deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that it
>> is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
> Well, I called that to show that it is a parallel framework. That we build
> both AS and JS beads. But I don't care to much about what we end up calling
> it.
Well, I do care. There are 2 naming conventions I think are working
well right now: the intended use of a framework decides the first:
ASJS stands for Actionscript to JavaScript, exactly what the
frameworks and tools in there do. The second is the approach taken
when going from AS to JS: first there is FlexJS, Alex's set of bottom
up, start from scratch frameworks (one for AS and one for JS), and
then there is VanillaSDK, my attempt at a top down, use the Flex SDK
and write a complimentary JS framework approach.
ASJS is also the home of the Publisher I'm writing, which will take
either framework (FlexJS and VanillaSDK) and use it and it's
dependencies to build an AS/MXML project into a HTML/JS project, again
AS -> JS.
I don't mind renaming/rebranding things, especially is something is
gained by doing so (even if it's only better marketing), but we should
take care not to end up with a too generic naming convention just
trying to fit too many projects under one roof.
EdB
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
RE: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Kessler CTR Mark J <ma...@usmc.mil>.
Well Firefox, Chrome, Safari(disabled by default), Opera, few mobile ones support it. IE only supports it atm with a plugin. However it is pretty much a deal breaker to design the end state twice.
But if you want an easy to read does my browser support WebGL type page.. try this. Yay/nay lol.
http://www.doesmybrowsersupportwebgl.com/
-Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Newman [mailto:CaptainN@unFocus.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 10:37
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
WebGL isn't supported by IE (and various flavors of WebKit and maybe not
Opera either), so you'd have to do two implementations, one in WebGL,
and a fallback in Canvas (which in IE is GPU accelerated).
Kevin N.
On 1/22/13 7:26 AM, Kessler CTR Mark J wrote:
> I was going to recommend trying a WebGL for GPU rendering. However, while most browsers support it. Microsoft has not yet jumped on board. It does use the HTML5 Canvas to render on.
>
> I didn't even remember it existed really until I read an article about a game from Mozilla demo studio called BananaBread. It was a "3D first person shooter game compiled to JS+WebGL". The part that caught my eye was the "Compiled into JS+WebGL".
>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/detail/bananabread
>
>
> Are there any other well adopted standards similar to WebGL?
>
>
> -Mark
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Kevin Newman <Ca...@unFocus.com>.
WebGL isn't supported by IE (and various flavors of WebKit and maybe not
Opera either), so you'd have to do two implementations, one in WebGL,
and a fallback in Canvas (which in IE is GPU accelerated).
Kevin N.
On 1/22/13 7:26 AM, Kessler CTR Mark J wrote:
> I was going to recommend trying a WebGL for GPU rendering. However, while most browsers support it. Microsoft has not yet jumped on board. It does use the HTML5 Canvas to render on.
>
> I didn't even remember it existed really until I read an article about a game from Mozilla demo studio called BananaBread. It was a "3D first person shooter game compiled to JS+WebGL". The part that caught my eye was the "Compiled into JS+WebGL".
>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/detail/bananabread
>
>
> Are there any other well adopted standards similar to WebGL?
>
>
> -Mark
RE: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Kessler CTR Mark J <ma...@usmc.mil>.
I was going to recommend trying a WebGL for GPU rendering. However, while most browsers support it. Microsoft has not yet jumped on board. It does use the HTML5 Canvas to render on.
I didn't even remember it existed really until I read an article about a game from Mozilla demo studio called BananaBread. It was a "3D first person shooter game compiled to JS+WebGL". The part that caught my eye was the "Compiled into JS+WebGL".
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/detail/bananabread
Are there any other well adopted standards similar to WebGL?
-Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: omuppi1@gmail.com [mailto:omuppi1@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Om
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 20:22
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
>
> In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little
> chunks
> I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
> three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
>
I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think it
deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that it
is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
Second, it deserves its own wiki page.
The reason is: I see this as a clean way to start implementing a new Flex
framework. The effort that you, Michael.S and Erik have undertaken to make
it work in HTML/JS can work in parallel with a Starling/GPU based View for
the same new Flex framework.
>
> Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
> calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
>
This makes a lot of sense. Except that Starling's APIs tries to mimic the
current Flash Player's display list paradigm. I need to spend some time
trying to figure out how I can tie these things up. Any thoughts?
>
> So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
> starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
>
This is the part that excites me most. I will start writing an
implementation of your framework with a Starling based view. I might have
to a new implementation of Application.as.
Do you mind if I pollute the asjs directory with my code, or would you
prefer that I do it on my whiteboard?
>
> I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling.
I think that is a good thing. The more clearer the separation there is
between the rest of the framework and the render specific stuff, the better
for everyone.
> I still need convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast
> majority of
> business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS
> code
> or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I do
> want to tackle in this new framework.
My take on this is: I have worked on so many data intensive applications
where performance goes for a toss when the framework is trying to draw too
many things on the screen. Utilizing the GPU (especially on mobile) would
definitely make a difference. For legacy hardware, things would fallback
to to a software engine anyways, so what is the harm in trying this out?
> I did consider that the new framework would favor bitmaps over vectors, at
least in the early versions. I'm not planning support on the JS side for
> vector graphics right away, so you are reduced to using bitmaps for many
> more things, which I think most folks do in HTML/JS and which GPUs seem to
> like more.
>
Again, this is a good thing. In my experiments with Flex on mobile
devices, rastering displayobjects and removing them off the display yielded
so much better performance. Imagine if everything we had this kind of
support in the framework itself.
>
> The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the falcon/trunk/compiler.js
> folder. The latest ASJS framework is in asjs/branches/develop/framework,
> and the example that uses it is in
> asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
>
>
>
As I said earlier, it would be fantastic if you could split the new
framework into separate directory and not throw it in along with ASJS. Does
that make sense?
Thanks,
Om
> On 1/18/13 11:04 AM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That's why I've chosen a new
> >> parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
> >> would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
> >> patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it
> to
> >> grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
> >>
> >
> > This sounds very interesting to me. I have been playing around with
> > Starling and Stage3D to see how best to render Flex via the GPU. I've
> come
> > to the conclusion that this would entail rewriting a lot of of existing
> > Flex code. In your new framework, do you think it would be possible to
> > switch from DisplayObject based rendering to GPU based rendering as
> needed?
> > Did you consider this option when designing your new framework?
> >
> > Any chance we could see your prototype any time soon?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Om
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Frank Wienberg <fr...@jangaroo.net>.
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Michael Schmalle
<ap...@teotigraphix.com>wrote:
> This is how Android works to, you draw to Bitmaps.
>
> It has a "display list" for layout like algorithms but the Canvas is
> passed around to be drawn on.
>
>
Isn't that similar to a Flash Stage with cacheAsBitmap=true?
At least this is how I implemented "cacheAsBitmap" in JooFlash (see
other thread).
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
This is how Android works to, you draw to Bitmaps.
It has a "display list" for layout like algorithms but the Canvas is
passed around to be drawn on.
Mike
Quoting Kevin Newman <Ca...@unFocus.com>:
> Flex could do something more like they do on iOS. They can build an
> entire layout as one bitmap, but to get parts that can change or
> animate, they use layer-backing. So they only create a new quad for
> the parts they need to. This seems to be a better strategy on mobile
> than a deep display list, where everything gets it's own BitmapData
> and quad.
>
> Kevin N.
>
>
> On 1/21/13 11:46 PM, Alex Harui wrote:
>> Did you see the thread today where someone else proposed an alternative to
>> Starling? Starling may not be the best way to get at stage3D/gpu. Any
>> emulation of the display list is likely to cost more cycles than one tuned
>> to the platform. Do we really need a display list at all? If not, then
>> don't use one.
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Kevin Newman <Ca...@unFocus.com>.
Flex could do something more like they do on iOS. They can build an
entire layout as one bitmap, but to get parts that can change or
animate, they use layer-backing. So they only create a new quad for the
parts they need to. This seems to be a better strategy on mobile than a
deep display list, where everything gets it's own BitmapData and quad.
Kevin N.
On 1/21/13 11:46 PM, Alex Harui wrote:
> Did you see the thread today where someone else proposed an alternative to
> Starling? Starling may not be the best way to get at stage3D/gpu. Any
> emulation of the display list is likely to cost more cycles than one tuned
> to the platform. Do we really need a display list at all? If not, then
> don't use one.
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/21/13 5:21 PM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>> Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
>>
>> In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little
>> chunks
>> I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
>> three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
>>
>
> I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think it
> deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that it
> is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
Well, I called that to show that it is a parallel framework. That we build
both AS and JS beads. But I don't care to much about what we end up calling
it.
> Second, it deserves its own wiki page.
Well, I think there is one:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
> The reason is: I see this as a clean way to start implementing a new Flex
> framework. The effort that you, Michael.S and Erik have undertaken to make
> it work in HTML/JS can work in parallel with a Starling/GPU based View for
> the same new Flex framework.
>
>
>>
>> Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
>> calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
>>
>
> This makes a lot of sense. Except that Starling's APIs tries to mimic the
> current Flash Player's display list paradigm. I need to spend some time
> trying to figure out how I can tie these things up. Any thoughts?
Did you see the thread today where someone else proposed an alternative to
Starling? Starling may not be the best way to get at stage3D/gpu. Any
emulation of the display list is likely to cost more cycles than one tuned
to the platform. Do we really need a display list at all? If not, then
don't use one.
>
>
>>
>> So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
>> starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
>>
>
> This is the part that excites me most. I will start writing an
> implementation of your framework with a Starling based view. I might have
> to a new implementation of Application.as.
In my view of the world, there will be many packages with different flavors
of Applications, components and beads.
>
> Do you mind if I pollute the asjs directory with my code, or would you
> prefer that I do it on my whiteboard?
I think you can do it directly in the asjs directory if you organize the
packages in a reasonable way.
>
>
>>
>> I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling.
>
>
> I think that is a good thing. The more clearer the separation there is
> between the rest of the framework and the render specific stuff, the better
> for everyone.
>
>
>> I still need convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast
>> majority of
>> business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS
>> code
>> or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I do
>> want to tackle in this new framework.
>
>
> My take on this is: I have worked on so many data intensive applications
> where performance goes for a toss when the framework is trying to draw too
> many things on the screen.
OK, but did you put in the profiler? Did [render] actually show up or is
other code running instead?
> Utilizing the GPU (especially on mobile) would
> definitely make a difference.
Again, do you have empirical evidence? It makes sense for sprite sheets in
a game, but I don't understand what kind of visualization you are doing in
your business apps that is similar.
> For legacy hardware, things would fallback
> to to a software engine anyways, so what is the harm in trying this out?
No harm, if this is your itch, you are welcome to scratch it, but I am all
about expectation management. So if it were me I would use profiler data to
set expectations. One of my goals of the new framework is to try to apply
simple principles of just-in-time and on-demand so the SDK doesn't waste
cycles for just-in-case stuff like it does now. That alone might give you
the performance boost you are looking for.
>
>
>
>>
>> The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the falcon/trunk/compiler.js
>> folder. The latest ASJS framework is in asjs/branches/develop/framework,
>> and the example that uses it is in
>> asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
>>
>>
>>
> As I said earlier, it would be fantastic if you could split the new
> framework into separate directory and not throw it in along with ASJS. Does
> that make sense?
Well, you can argue for a different name for the folder, but its ability to
have a parallel JS framework is highly important and one of the major
design/implementation constraints, so I like the idea there is an as folder
next to the js folder in SVN. If your work turns out to be just alternative
skins, that can be managed in a separate package or folder. For now, I
think you should just start sticking in code and see what we end up with
then we can figure out a better organization later when we understand what
we have.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
>
> In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little
> chunks
> I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
> three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
>
I spent some time going through your new framework. First off, I think it
deserves to be called something else. The "JS" in "ASJS" implies that it
is a JS specific implementation of the framework. In reality it is not.
Second, it deserves its own wiki page.
The reason is: I see this as a clean way to start implementing a new Flex
framework. The effort that you, Michael.S and Erik have undertaken to make
it work in HTML/JS can work in parallel with a Starling/GPU based View for
the same new Flex framework.
>
> Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
> calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
>
This makes a lot of sense. Except that Starling's APIs tries to mimic the
current Flash Player's display list paradigm. I need to spend some time
trying to figure out how I can tie these things up. Any thoughts?
>
> So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
> starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
>
This is the part that excites me most. I will start writing an
implementation of your framework with a Starling based view. I might have
to a new implementation of Application.as.
Do you mind if I pollute the asjs directory with my code, or would you
prefer that I do it on my whiteboard?
>
> I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling.
I think that is a good thing. The more clearer the separation there is
between the rest of the framework and the render specific stuff, the better
for everyone.
> I still need convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast
> majority of
> business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS
> code
> or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I do
> want to tackle in this new framework.
My take on this is: I have worked on so many data intensive applications
where performance goes for a toss when the framework is trying to draw too
many things on the screen. Utilizing the GPU (especially on mobile) would
definitely make a difference. For legacy hardware, things would fallback
to to a software engine anyways, so what is the harm in trying this out?
> I did consider that the new framework would favor bitmaps over vectors, at
least in the early versions. I'm not planning support on the JS side for
> vector graphics right away, so you are reduced to using bitmaps for many
> more things, which I think most folks do in HTML/JS and which GPUs seem to
> like more.
>
Again, this is a good thing. In my experiments with Flex on mobile
devices, rastering displayobjects and removing them off the display yielded
so much better performance. Imagine if everything we had this kind of
support in the framework itself.
>
> The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the falcon/trunk/compiler.js
> folder. The latest ASJS framework is in asjs/branches/develop/framework,
> and the example that uses it is in
> asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
>
>
>
As I said earlier, it would be fantastic if you could split the new
framework into separate directory and not throw it in along with ASJS. Does
that make sense?
Thanks,
Om
> On 1/18/13 11:04 AM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That's why I've chosen a new
> >> parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
> >> would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
> >> patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it
> to
> >> grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
> >>
> >
> > This sounds very interesting to me. I have been playing around with
> > Starling and Stage3D to see how best to render Flex via the GPU. I've
> come
> > to the conclusion that this would entail rewriting a lot of of existing
> > Flex code. In your new framework, do you think it would be possible to
> > switch from DisplayObject based rendering to GPU based rendering as
> needed?
> > Did you consider this option when designing your new framework?
> >
> > Any chance we could see your prototype any time soon?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Om
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
Re: ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Jonathan Campos <jo...@gmail.com>.
Very cool interesting work Alex. Going to need to stop and check this out.
I've been using feathers recently for a few display object heavy mobile
apps and it has worked well. Would like to get back some parts from flex.
When I was playing with making a starling version of flex I felt the need
for a new way for add child also. So yea... Long story short definitely
understand and like where you are going.
On Jan 18, 2013 1:49 PM, "Alex Harui" <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
>
> In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little
> chunks
> I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
> three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
>
> Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
> calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
>
> So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
> starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
>
> I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling. I still need
> convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast majority of
> business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS
> code
> or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I do
> want to tackle in this new framework. Early versions of this new framework
> are probably not going to support 3D effects and 3D rendering so I think I
> have time before I have to really deal with it.
>
> I did consider that the new framework would favor bitmaps over vectors, at
> least in the early versions. I'm not planning support on the JS side for
> vector graphics right away, so you are reduced to using bitmaps for many
> more things, which I think most folks do in HTML/JS and which GPUs seem to
> like more.
>
> The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the falcon/trunk/compiler.js
> folder. The latest ASJS framework is in asjs/branches/develop/framework,
> and the example that uses it is in
> asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
>
>
> On 1/18/13 11:04 AM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That's why I've chosen a new
> >> parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
> >> would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
> >> patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it
> to
> >> grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
> >>
> >
> > This sounds very interesting to me. I have been playing around with
> > Starling and Stage3D to see how best to render Flex via the GPU. I've
> come
> > to the conclusion that this would entail rewriting a lot of of existing
> > Flex code. In your new framework, do you think it would be possible to
> > switch from DisplayObject based rendering to GPU based rendering as
> needed?
> > Did you consider this option when designing your new framework?
> >
> > Any chance we could see your prototype any time soon?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Om
>
> --
> Alex Harui
> Flex SDK Team
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>
>
ASJS and Starling (was Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
Changing subject because GPU rendering usually gets a lot of replies.
In this new framework, I am trying to separate everything into little chunks
I call "beads". The visual components are supposed to have a minimum of
three beads, one each for MVC, and the V is essentially the Skin.
Components don't assume they are on the Flash display list. Instead of
calling addChild, you call child.addToParent.
So, yes, you could write new view beads that create their visuals using
starling. I suppose we could rewire addToParent to do what you want.
I didn't explicitly design the new framework for starling. I still need
convincing that it truly makes a difference for the vast majority of
business applications. I still think your Flex apps are busy running AS code
or suffering from having too many display objects per component which I do
want to tackle in this new framework. Early versions of this new framework
are probably not going to support 3D effects and 3D rendering so I think I
have time before I have to really deal with it.
I did consider that the new framework would favor bitmaps over vectors, at
least in the early versions. I'm not planning support on the JS side for
vector graphics right away, so you are reduced to using bitmaps for many
more things, which I think most folks do in HTML/JS and which GPUs seem to
like more.
The prototype is checked in: FalconJS is in the falcon/trunk/compiler.js
folder. The latest ASJS framework is in asjs/branches/develop/framework,
and the example that uses it is in
asjs/branches/develop/examples/FlexJSTest_again.
On 1/18/13 11:04 AM, "Om" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>> That's why I've chosen a new
>> parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
>> would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
>> patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it to
>> grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
>>
>
> This sounds very interesting to me. I have been playing around with
> Starling and Stage3D to see how best to render Flex via the GPU. I've come
> to the conclusion that this would entail rewriting a lot of of existing
> Flex code. In your new framework, do you think it would be possible to
> switch from DisplayObject based rendering to GPU based rendering as needed?
> Did you consider this option when designing your new framework?
>
> Any chance we could see your prototype any time soon?
>
> Thanks,
> Om
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Om <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> That's why I've chosen a new
> parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
> would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
> patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it to
> grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
>
This sounds very interesting to me. I have been playing around with
Starling and Stage3D to see how best to render Flex via the GPU. I've come
to the conclusion that this would entail rewriting a lot of of existing
Flex code. In your new framework, do you think it would be possible to
switch from DisplayObject based rendering to GPU based rendering as needed?
Did you consider this option when designing your new framework?
Any chance we could see your prototype any time soon?
Thanks,
Om
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Great Erik!
We are on the same page then, this is even better that I thought. :)
Thanks for writing that.
Mike
Quoting Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>:
>> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no flash
>> display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
>
> And that's where I come in. Once I'm done with helping out Mike
> getting the business logic up and running, I plan on starting work on
> the JS framework that will take care of the display stuff...
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no flash
> display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
And that's where I come in. Once I'm done with helping out Mike
getting the business logic up and running, I plan on starting work on
the JS framework that will take care of the display stuff...
EdB
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Yeah but good enough to dare glance at the code now :)
Thanks again.
-Fred
-----Message d'origine-----
From: FrédericCox
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 5:11 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
That is interesting stuff! And more understandable now :-) (not fully yet
;-))
Thanks for your time and effort. I'm very pleased to see Erik has plans
for the views handling from MXML to HTML DOM. That is an interesting part
of the project too :-)
Fréderic Cox
On 18/01/13 17:06, "Frédéric THOMAS" <we...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Waou, that's just the golden needed missing informations, that has
>absolutely to be reported on the wiki with the previous clarification,
>thanks for you time Mike :)
>
>-Fred
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>From: Michael Schmalle
>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:51 PM
>To: dev@flex.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
>
>Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Yes, that's a clear introduction of what it aims to and it was
>>important
>> to clarify that.
>
>Ok good.
>
>> On the wiki page, l would like to understand little bit more, even if
>> maybe, not sure, I can figure out what is a javascript target, AST
>> walker, JavaScript emitter and node switch strategy, it would be nice
>>if
>> it would be explained.
>
>Yes, I know that all sounds alien. I am positive I can make it sound
>logical and understandable also.
>
>The parser
>-------------------
>
>AST stands for Abstract Syntax Tree avery complicated way of saying
>Objects that have parents and children. When an .as file is parsed by
>Falcon, the parser creates "blocks" of things it recognizes from the
>string tokens feed to it as it's running through the source file. A
>token is a String defined my the AS3 language spec IE "class", "if",
>"{", "foo" etc.
>
>As the parser accepts these tokens from the stream, it recognizes
>patterns like "public" is a namespace if it happens just before the
>"class" token. So as the parser runs through these rules and finds
>matches, it creates IASNode instance such as IClassNode, IIdentifier
>node etc.
>
>Each node in the tree represents a part of the ActionScript file. If
>you actually look at an .as you can see how it's very nature is
>heiracle, that is the AST tree and the IASNode subclasses represent
>that tree.
>
>We can also call this tree a DOM or Document Object Model. So when we
>say AST we also mean ActionScript DOM because there is only one
>semantic way that DOM will be constructed by the ASParser's grammar.
>It's exactly what a Browser does with the HTML DOM, there are rules
>and the only way the browser's parser will create an element in the
>DOM is if you source code matches the rules.
>
>The walker
>-------------------------
>
>Just as you would create a recursive function to traverse HTML with
>JavaScript, we can do the same thing with the AS3 DOM (AST) which I
>have done.
>
>The only hard part about this is you have to be familiar with the
>"grammar" or API of the DOM to make sure you recursively traverse it
>in the correct order and get everything. That is why Erik and I have
>over 500 unit tests, this is making sure we are producing the whole
>language correctly.
>
>So once the DOM is created, we call walke.visitFile(fileNode), which
>the IFileNode is the root of the tree, just like window is the root of
>the HTML DOM.
>
>Visit file will then abstractly call visitPackage(), then
>visitClass(), then visitMethod(), visitBlock(), visitIf(),
>visitBinary() etc. The visit methods are called through the node
>switch strategy class. This is kindof complicated but not really, it's
>kindof a juggling act back and forth so the whole node handler
>traversing calls the correct visit method based on the current node's
>type, is it a function, expression etc.
>
>You see, that when each of the nodes in the tree are visited
>recursively, the String emitter is called to emit the javascript or
>actionscript source code into the buffer.
>
>The backend
>----------------------------
>
>The backend stuff is going to be refactored and I have some ideas
>about the compiler setup but basically, the way the actual compiler is
>setup and the design of FalconJx, it allows tremendous flexibility on
>overriding things for different JavaScript output, the final string
>that gets written to disk with the .js extension.
>
>Like right now Erik has a Goog and AMD output that are separate
>implementations but use the same core framework.
>
>On a final note, this framework was first written by me to create
>valid ActionScript. So what is actually happening is we are taking
>advantage of the fact JavaScript is ECMA just like AS, so we are only
>overriding the parts of the two languages that differ for source code
>production.
>
>In the end, FalconJx is actually an ActionScript emitter first, other
>languages next.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>> -Fred.
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:03 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> Yeah,
>>
>> When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
>>
>> Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
>> explanation which I will work on.
>>
>> Really, here is the Overview.
>>
>> "FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
>> code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
>> are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
>> the same view code."
>>
>> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
>> flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
>>
>> My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
>> expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
>>
>> I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
>> compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Q: How does it work?
>>>
>>> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
>>> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter.
>>> The difference here is the AST walker is a hand written
>>>implementation
>>> that can easily be maintained and optimized per individual specs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who
>>> never did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some
>>> words that hurts :) that's the reason why I said
>>>"introduction/overview
>>> " meaning something more basic that could help to understand what is
>>> written on the wiki page.
>>>
>>> -Fred
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>
>>> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even
>>>>more
>>>> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST,
>>>> ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>>>
>>>> -Fred
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>>
>>>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm
>>>>sure
>>>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>>>
>>>> Carol
>>>>
>>>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frederic,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e.
>>>>>won't
>>>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This
>>>>>framework
>>>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Proto
>>>>>type
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main
>>>>>selling
>>>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools
>>>>>to
>>>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goo
>>>>>g%27
>>>>> +Way
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually
>>>>>allow
>>>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun,
>>>>>
>>>>> EdB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox
>>>>><co...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>>>> "regular"
>>>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>>>> technical
>>>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run
>>>>>>in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> browser already?
>>>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>>>> FalconJx
>>>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash
>>>>>> run
>>>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages"
>>>>>> paradigm
>>>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are
>>>>>>at
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> this moment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have
>>>>>>>plans
>>>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>>
>>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>>
>
>--
>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/18/13 8:11 AM, "Fréderic Cox" <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That is interesting stuff! And more understandable now :-) (not fully yet
> ;-))
>
> Thanks for your time and effort. I'm very pleased to see Erik has plans
> for the views handling from MXML to HTML DOM. That is an interesting part
> of the project too :-)
>
The FalconJS compiler in compiler.js, plus the FlexJSTest_again example and
the framework in the asjs develop branch already take MXML and result in an
HTML DOM. All I have working right now is a button and a label, but I plan
to work on finishing prototypes for the "classics" (TextInput, TextArea,
CheckBox, List, Combobox) soon.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>.
That is interesting stuff! And more understandable now :-) (not fully yet
;-))
Thanks for your time and effort. I'm very pleased to see Erik has plans
for the views handling from MXML to HTML DOM. That is an interesting part
of the project too :-)
Fréderic Cox
On 18/01/13 17:06, "Frédéric THOMAS" <we...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Waou, that's just the golden needed missing informations, that has
>absolutely to be reported on the wiki with the previous clarification,
>thanks for you time Mike :)
>
>-Fred
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>From: Michael Schmalle
>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:51 PM
>To: dev@flex.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
>
>Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Yes, that's a clear introduction of what it aims to and it was
>>important
>> to clarify that.
>
>Ok good.
>
>> On the wiki page, l would like to understand little bit more, even if
>> maybe, not sure, I can figure out what is a javascript target, AST
>> walker, JavaScript emitter and node switch strategy, it would be nice
>>if
>> it would be explained.
>
>Yes, I know that all sounds alien. I am positive I can make it sound
>logical and understandable also.
>
>The parser
>-------------------
>
>AST stands for Abstract Syntax Tree avery complicated way of saying
>Objects that have parents and children. When an .as file is parsed by
>Falcon, the parser creates "blocks" of things it recognizes from the
>string tokens feed to it as it's running through the source file. A
>token is a String defined my the AS3 language spec IE "class", "if",
>"{", "foo" etc.
>
>As the parser accepts these tokens from the stream, it recognizes
>patterns like "public" is a namespace if it happens just before the
>"class" token. So as the parser runs through these rules and finds
>matches, it creates IASNode instance such as IClassNode, IIdentifier
>node etc.
>
>Each node in the tree represents a part of the ActionScript file. If
>you actually look at an .as you can see how it's very nature is
>heiracle, that is the AST tree and the IASNode subclasses represent
>that tree.
>
>We can also call this tree a DOM or Document Object Model. So when we
>say AST we also mean ActionScript DOM because there is only one
>semantic way that DOM will be constructed by the ASParser's grammar.
>It's exactly what a Browser does with the HTML DOM, there are rules
>and the only way the browser's parser will create an element in the
>DOM is if you source code matches the rules.
>
>The walker
>-------------------------
>
>Just as you would create a recursive function to traverse HTML with
>JavaScript, we can do the same thing with the AS3 DOM (AST) which I
>have done.
>
>The only hard part about this is you have to be familiar with the
>"grammar" or API of the DOM to make sure you recursively traverse it
>in the correct order and get everything. That is why Erik and I have
>over 500 unit tests, this is making sure we are producing the whole
>language correctly.
>
>So once the DOM is created, we call walke.visitFile(fileNode), which
>the IFileNode is the root of the tree, just like window is the root of
>the HTML DOM.
>
>Visit file will then abstractly call visitPackage(), then
>visitClass(), then visitMethod(), visitBlock(), visitIf(),
>visitBinary() etc. The visit methods are called through the node
>switch strategy class. This is kindof complicated but not really, it's
>kindof a juggling act back and forth so the whole node handler
>traversing calls the correct visit method based on the current node's
>type, is it a function, expression etc.
>
>You see, that when each of the nodes in the tree are visited
>recursively, the String emitter is called to emit the javascript or
>actionscript source code into the buffer.
>
>The backend
>----------------------------
>
>The backend stuff is going to be refactored and I have some ideas
>about the compiler setup but basically, the way the actual compiler is
>setup and the design of FalconJx, it allows tremendous flexibility on
>overriding things for different JavaScript output, the final string
>that gets written to disk with the .js extension.
>
>Like right now Erik has a Goog and AMD output that are separate
>implementations but use the same core framework.
>
>On a final note, this framework was first written by me to create
>valid ActionScript. So what is actually happening is we are taking
>advantage of the fact JavaScript is ECMA just like AS, so we are only
>overriding the parts of the two languages that differ for source code
>production.
>
>In the end, FalconJx is actually an ActionScript emitter first, other
>languages next.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>> -Fred.
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:03 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> Yeah,
>>
>> When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
>>
>> Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
>> explanation which I will work on.
>>
>> Really, here is the Overview.
>>
>> "FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
>> code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
>> are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
>> the same view code."
>>
>> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
>> flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
>>
>> My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
>> expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
>>
>> I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
>> compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Q: How does it work?
>>>
>>> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
>>> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter.
>>> The difference here is the AST walker is a hand written
>>>implementation
>>> that can easily be maintained and optimized per individual specs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who
>>> never did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some
>>> words that hurts :) that's the reason why I said
>>>"introduction/overview
>>> " meaning something more basic that could help to understand what is
>>> written on the wiki page.
>>>
>>> -Fred
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>
>>> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even
>>>>more
>>>> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST,
>>>> ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>>>
>>>> -Fred
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>>
>>>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm
>>>>sure
>>>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>>>
>>>> Carol
>>>>
>>>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frederic,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e.
>>>>>won't
>>>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This
>>>>>framework
>>>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Proto
>>>>>type
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main
>>>>>selling
>>>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools
>>>>>to
>>>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goo
>>>>>g%27
>>>>> +Way
>>>>>
>>>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually
>>>>>allow
>>>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun,
>>>>>
>>>>> EdB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox
>>>>><co...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>>>> "regular"
>>>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>>>> technical
>>>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run
>>>>>>in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> browser already?
>>>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>>>> FalconJx
>>>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash
>>>>>> run
>>>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages"
>>>>>> paradigm
>>>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are
>>>>>>at
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> this moment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have
>>>>>>>plans
>>>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>>
>>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>>
>
>--
>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Waou, that's just the golden needed missing informations, that has
absolutely to be reported on the wiki with the previous clarification,
thanks for you time Mike :)
-Fred
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Michael Schmalle
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:51 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Mike,
>
> Yes, that's a clear introduction of what it aims to and it was important
> to clarify that.
Ok good.
> On the wiki page, l would like to understand little bit more, even if
> maybe, not sure, I can figure out what is a javascript target, AST
> walker, JavaScript emitter and node switch strategy, it would be nice if
> it would be explained.
Yes, I know that all sounds alien. I am positive I can make it sound
logical and understandable also.
The parser
-------------------
AST stands for Abstract Syntax Tree avery complicated way of saying
Objects that have parents and children. When an .as file is parsed by
Falcon, the parser creates "blocks" of things it recognizes from the
string tokens feed to it as it's running through the source file. A
token is a String defined my the AS3 language spec IE "class", "if",
"{", "foo" etc.
As the parser accepts these tokens from the stream, it recognizes
patterns like "public" is a namespace if it happens just before the
"class" token. So as the parser runs through these rules and finds
matches, it creates IASNode instance such as IClassNode, IIdentifier
node etc.
Each node in the tree represents a part of the ActionScript file. If
you actually look at an .as you can see how it's very nature is
heiracle, that is the AST tree and the IASNode subclasses represent
that tree.
We can also call this tree a DOM or Document Object Model. So when we
say AST we also mean ActionScript DOM because there is only one
semantic way that DOM will be constructed by the ASParser's grammar.
It's exactly what a Browser does with the HTML DOM, there are rules
and the only way the browser's parser will create an element in the
DOM is if you source code matches the rules.
The walker
-------------------------
Just as you would create a recursive function to traverse HTML with
JavaScript, we can do the same thing with the AS3 DOM (AST) which I
have done.
The only hard part about this is you have to be familiar with the
"grammar" or API of the DOM to make sure you recursively traverse it
in the correct order and get everything. That is why Erik and I have
over 500 unit tests, this is making sure we are producing the whole
language correctly.
So once the DOM is created, we call walke.visitFile(fileNode), which
the IFileNode is the root of the tree, just like window is the root of
the HTML DOM.
Visit file will then abstractly call visitPackage(), then
visitClass(), then visitMethod(), visitBlock(), visitIf(),
visitBinary() etc. The visit methods are called through the node
switch strategy class. This is kindof complicated but not really, it's
kindof a juggling act back and forth so the whole node handler
traversing calls the correct visit method based on the current node's
type, is it a function, expression etc.
You see, that when each of the nodes in the tree are visited
recursively, the String emitter is called to emit the javascript or
actionscript source code into the buffer.
The backend
----------------------------
The backend stuff is going to be refactored and I have some ideas
about the compiler setup but basically, the way the actual compiler is
setup and the design of FalconJx, it allows tremendous flexibility on
overriding things for different JavaScript output, the final string
that gets written to disk with the .js extension.
Like right now Erik has a Goog and AMD output that are separate
implementations but use the same core framework.
On a final note, this framework was first written by me to create
valid ActionScript. So what is actually happening is we are taking
advantage of the fact JavaScript is ECMA just like AS, so we are only
overriding the parts of the two languages that differ for source code
production.
In the end, FalconJx is actually an ActionScript emitter first, other
languages next.
Mike
> -Fred.
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:03 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> Yeah,
>
> When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
>
> Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
> explanation which I will work on.
>
> Really, here is the Overview.
>
> "FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
> code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
> are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
> the same view code."
>
> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
> flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
>
> My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
> expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
>
> I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
> compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Q: How does it work?
>>
>> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
>> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter.
>> The difference here is the AST walker is a hand written implementation
>> that can easily be maintained and optimized per individual specs.
>>
>>
>> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who
>> never did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some
>> words that hurts :) that's the reason why I said "introduction/overview
>> " meaning something more basic that could help to understand what is
>> written on the wiki page.
>>
>> -Fred
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even more
>>> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST,
>>> ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>>
>>> -Fred
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>
>>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
>>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>>
>>> Carol
>>>
>>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frederic,
>>>>
>>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>>
>>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>>>
>>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>>>> +Way
>>>>
>>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> EdB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>>> "regular"
>>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>>> technical
>>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way
>>>>> what
>>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>>
>>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in
>>>>> the
>>>>> browser already?
>>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>>> FalconJx
>>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash
>>>>> run
>>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages"
>>>>> paradigm
>>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at
>>>>> at
>>>>> this moment
>>>>>
>>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>
>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>
>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Mike,
>
> Yes, that's a clear introduction of what it aims to and it was
> important to clarify that.
Ok good.
> On the wiki page, l would like to understand little bit more, even
> if maybe, not sure, I can figure out what is a javascript target,
> AST walker, JavaScript emitter and node switch strategy, it would be
> nice if it would be explained.
Yes, I know that all sounds alien. I am positive I can make it sound
logical and understandable also.
The parser
-------------------
AST stands for Abstract Syntax Tree avery complicated way of saying
Objects that have parents and children. When an .as file is parsed by
Falcon, the parser creates "blocks" of things it recognizes from the
string tokens feed to it as it's running through the source file. A
token is a String defined my the AS3 language spec IE "class", "if",
"{", "foo" etc.
As the parser accepts these tokens from the stream, it recognizes
patterns like "public" is a namespace if it happens just before the
"class" token. So as the parser runs through these rules and finds
matches, it creates IASNode instance such as IClassNode, IIdentifier
node etc.
Each node in the tree represents a part of the ActionScript file. If
you actually look at an .as you can see how it's very nature is
heiracle, that is the AST tree and the IASNode subclasses represent
that tree.
We can also call this tree a DOM or Document Object Model. So when we
say AST we also mean ActionScript DOM because there is only one
semantic way that DOM will be constructed by the ASParser's grammar.
It's exactly what a Browser does with the HTML DOM, there are rules
and the only way the browser's parser will create an element in the
DOM is if you source code matches the rules.
The walker
-------------------------
Just as you would create a recursive function to traverse HTML with
JavaScript, we can do the same thing with the AS3 DOM (AST) which I
have done.
The only hard part about this is you have to be familiar with the
"grammar" or API of the DOM to make sure you recursively traverse it
in the correct order and get everything. That is why Erik and I have
over 500 unit tests, this is making sure we are producing the whole
language correctly.
So once the DOM is created, we call walke.visitFile(fileNode), which
the IFileNode is the root of the tree, just like window is the root of
the HTML DOM.
Visit file will then abstractly call visitPackage(), then
visitClass(), then visitMethod(), visitBlock(), visitIf(),
visitBinary() etc. The visit methods are called through the node
switch strategy class. This is kindof complicated but not really, it's
kindof a juggling act back and forth so the whole node handler
traversing calls the correct visit method based on the current node's
type, is it a function, expression etc.
You see, that when each of the nodes in the tree are visited
recursively, the String emitter is called to emit the javascript or
actionscript source code into the buffer.
The backend
----------------------------
The backend stuff is going to be refactored and I have some ideas
about the compiler setup but basically, the way the actual compiler is
setup and the design of FalconJx, it allows tremendous flexibility on
overriding things for different JavaScript output, the final string
that gets written to disk with the .js extension.
Like right now Erik has a Goog and AMD output that are separate
implementations but use the same core framework.
On a final note, this framework was first written by me to create
valid ActionScript. So what is actually happening is we are taking
advantage of the fact JavaScript is ECMA just like AS, so we are only
overriding the parts of the two languages that differ for source code
production.
In the end, FalconJx is actually an ActionScript emitter first, other
languages next.
Mike
> -Fred.
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:03 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> Yeah,
>
> When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
>
> Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
> explanation which I will work on.
>
> Really, here is the Overview.
>
> "FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
> code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
> are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
> the same view code."
>
> When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
> flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
>
> My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
> expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
>
> I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
> compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Q: How does it work?
>>
>> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
>> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an
>> emitter. The difference here is the AST walker is a hand written
>> implementation that can easily be maintained and optimized per
>> individual specs.
>>
>>
>> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who
>> never did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are
>> some words that hurts :) that's the reason why I said
>> "introduction/overview " meaning something more basic that could
>> help to understand what is written on the wiki page.
>>
>> -Fred
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even
>>> more that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's
>>> the AST, ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>>
>>> -Fred
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>>
>>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
>>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>>
>>> Carol
>>>
>>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frederic,
>>>>
>>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>>
>>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>>>
>>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>>>> +Way
>>>>
>>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> EdB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>>> "regular"
>>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>>> technical
>>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>>
>>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>>>>> browser already?
>>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>>> FalconJx
>>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>>>>> this moment
>>>>>
>>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>>
>>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>>
>>>> T. 06-51952295
>>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Mike,
Yes, that's a clear introduction of what it aims to and it was important to
clarify that.
On the wiki page, l would like to understand little bit more, even if maybe,
not sure, I can figure out what is a javascript target, AST walker,
JavaScript emitter and node switch strategy, it would be nice if it would be
explained.
-Fred.
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Michael Schmalle
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:03 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Yeah,
When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
explanation which I will work on.
Really, here is the Overview.
"FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
the same view code."
When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
Mike
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Mike,
>
> Q: How does it work?
>
> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter. The
> difference here is the AST walker is a hand written implementation that
> can easily be maintained and optimized per individual specs.
>
>
> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who never
> did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some words that
> hurts :) that's the reason why I said "introduction/overview " meaning
> something more basic that could help to understand what is written on the
> wiki page.
>
> -Fred
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>
> Mike
>
>
> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even more
>> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST,
>> ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>
>> -Fred
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Frederic,
>>>
>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>
>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>>
>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>>> +Way
>>>
>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>
>>> Have fun,
>>>
>>> EdB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>> "regular"
>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>> technical
>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way
>>>> what
>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>
>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>
>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in
>>>> the
>>>> browser already?
>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>> FalconJx
>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>>>> this moment
>>>>
>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>
>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>
>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>
>>> T. 06-51952295
>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Yeah,
When I wrote that I was basically brainstorming and talking to myself.
Since it's in the trunk now, it does require a more laymans
explanation which I will work on.
Really, here is the Overview.
"FalconJx is being designed to be able to compile ActionScript3 source
code business logic to JavaScript business logic. At the moment, there
are no plans for the "majic bullet" compile to SWF and Browser with
the same view code."
When I say business logic, I mean, no views, no ui components, no
flash display list to javascript DOM conversations. Just business logic.
My main intention is not to "bloat" the project's definition with over
expectations like what happened in the definition of FalconJS.
I just want to be able to write OOP type strict code in AS3 and
compile it to JavaScript at the moment.
Mike
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Mike,
>
> Q: How does it work?
>
> A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
> traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter.
> The difference here is the AST walker is a hand written
> implementation that can easily be maintained and optimized per
> individual specs.
>
>
> I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who
> never did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some
> words that hurts :) that's the reason why I said
> "introduction/overview " meaning something more basic that could
> help to understand what is written on the wiki page.
>
> -Fred
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Michael Schmalle
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> I outlined some of this a while ago;
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
>
> Mike
>
>
> Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even
>> more that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the
>> AST, ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>>
>> -Fred
>>
>> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>>
>> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
>> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Frederic,
>>>
>>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>>
>>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>>
>>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>>> +Way
>>>
>>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>>
>>> Have fun,
>>>
>>> EdB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>>> "regular"
>>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>>> technical
>>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>>
>>>> Questions I have:
>>>>
>>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>>>> browser already?
>>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>>> FalconJx
>>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>>>> this moment
>>>>
>>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>>
>>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>>
>>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>>
>>> T. 06-51952295
>>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>>
>>
>
> --
> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
> http://www.teotigraphix.com
> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Mike,
Q: How does it work?
A: Basically we are utilizing the fantastic AST IASNode structure,
traversing the nodes and visiting them individually with an emitter. The
difference here is the AST walker is a hand written implementation that can
easily be maintained and optimized per individual specs.
I've been lost right after the word "Basically", as many people who never
did anything regarding compilers but compiling, there are some words that
hurts :) that's the reason why I said "introduction/overview " meaning
something more basic that could help to understand what is written on the
wiki page.
-Fred
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Michael Schmalle
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:38 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
I outlined some of this a while ago;
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
Mike
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even more
> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST, ...,
> would be also welcomed I guess.
>
> -Fred
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>
> Carol
>
> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>
>> Frederic,
>>
>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>
>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>
>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>> +Way
>>
>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>
>> Have fun,
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>> "regular"
>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>> technical
>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>
>>> Questions I have:
>>>
>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>>> browser already?
>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>> FalconJx
>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>>> this moment
>>>
>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>
>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
I outlined some of this a while ago;
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/FalconJx+Prototype
Mike
Quoting Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>:
> Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even more
> that, a good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST,
> ..., would be also welcomed I guess.
>
> -Fred
>
> -----Message d'origine----- From: Carol Frampton
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
>
> This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
> Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
>
> Carol
>
> On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>
>> Frederic,
>>
>> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>>
>> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>> complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>> compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>> application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>> work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>> goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>>
>> FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>> an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>> have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>> points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>> architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>> this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>> feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>> ~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>> augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>> features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>> in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>> +Way
>>
>> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>> for just dreaming about that :-)
>>
>> Have fun,
>>
>> EdB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>> "regular"
>>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>> technical
>>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>>
>>> Questions I have:
>>>
>>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>>> browser already?
>>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>> FalconJx
>>> instead of Flash Player?
>>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>>> (history) and the DOM?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>>> this moment
>>>
>>> Fréderic Cox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>
>>>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>>
>>>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ix Multimedia Software
>>
>> Jan Luykenstraat 27
>> 3521 VB Utrecht
>>
>> T. 06-51952295
>> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Frédéric THOMAS <we...@hotmail.com>.
Yes, you right Carol, this information is very helpful and even more that, a
good introduction/overview of how it works, what's the AST, ..., would be
also welcomed I guess.
-Fred
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Carol Frampton
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 3:30 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
Carol
On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>Frederic,
>
>There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>FalconJS and FalconJx.
>
>FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>
>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>
>FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>
>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>+Way
>
>FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>for just dreaming about that :-)
>
>Have fun,
>
>EdB
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>"regular"
>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>technical
>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>
>> Questions I have:
>>
>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>> browser already?
>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>FalconJx
>> instead of Flash Player?
>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>> (history) and the DOM?
>>
>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>> this moment
>>
>> Fréderic Cox
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hey all,
>>>
>>>Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>
>>>This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>--
>>>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Ix Multimedia Software
>
>Jan Luykenstraat 27
>3521 VB Utrecht
>
>T. 06-51952295
>I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Carol Frampton <cf...@adobe.com>.
This would be good info to post somewhere on the website since I'm sure
Frederic isn't the only one wondering.
Carol
On 1/18/13 6 :41AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
>Frederic,
>
>There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
>FalconJS and FalconJx.
>
>FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
>complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
>compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
>application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
>work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
>goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
>
>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
>
>FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
>an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
>have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
>points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
>architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
>this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
>feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
>~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
>augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
>features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
>in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
>
>https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27
>+Way
>
>FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
>translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
>will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
>for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
>idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
>compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
>for just dreaming about that :-)
>
>Have fun,
>
>EdB
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a
>>"regular"
>> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too
>>technical
>> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
>> the status of the project is at this moment.
>>
>> Questions I have:
>>
>> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
>> browser already?
>> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with
>>FalconJx
>> instead of Flash Player?
>> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
>> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
>> (history) and the DOM?
>>
>> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
>> this moment
>>
>> Fréderic Cox
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hey all,
>>>
>>>Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>>cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>>is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>>
>>>This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>>chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>>down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>>functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>--
>>>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Ix Multimedia Software
>
>Jan Luykenstraat 27
>3521 VB Utrecht
>
>T. 06-51952295
>I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>.
Understood, thanks and good luck guys! I will monitor your work but first
I need to learn about AS and MXML in more detail, where can I start?
Because I thought MXML was just actionscript classes where a compiler
would parse the MXML and generate the appropriate AS class.
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/18/13 3:41 AM, "Erik de Bruin" <er...@ixsoftware.nl> wrote:
> Frederic,
>
> There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
> FalconJS and FalconJx.
>
> FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui.
FTR, it was started by another Adobe engineer. I am just shepherding its
donation to Apache and making enough of it run to suit my purposes while
waiting for FalconJX.
>
> FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
> translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
> will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
> for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
> idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
> compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
> for just dreaming about that :-)
I don't have a problem with shooting for support of existing code, I just
think it will take a long time to get there. As I've said before, this is a
critical year for Flex. We need to release alpha versions of this new
direction early and often: every day that goes by more folks are choosing
other JS frameworks. We have to show folks that this ASJS strategy can help
them right away and get them to try it. Bonus points if those folks who
start adopting it are key Adobe customers. That's why I've chosen a new
parallel framework: I've already got a prototype up and running, and I
would not be able to do that with the current Flex SDK. Hopefully the
patterns I am using the new framework are extensible enough to allow it to
grow up to match the old Flex SDK over time.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Erik de Bruin <er...@ixsoftware.nl>.
Frederic,
There are currently two JS cross compilation projects happening:
FalconJS and FalconJx.
FalconJS is a project started by Alex Harui. It is currently the most
complete implementation and has (limited?) MXML parsing. The FalconJS
compiler will take an MXML and AS project and output a valid HTML/JS
application. FalconJS does depend on a custom AS framework (i.e. won't
work with the Flex SDK) and corresponding JS framework. This framework
goes by the name of FlexJS. Read more about it on the Wiki:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
FalconJx is the 'alternative' project from Michael Schmalle. It uses
an alternative approach to AS3 compilation (don't ask for details, I
have no clue about the innards of that code). One of it's main selling
points (from my humble point of view) is that it has a very flexible
architecture for outputting different flavours of JS. The status of
this project is that we are working on getting complete AS3 language
feature coverage in place. This means that we are working towards
~100% translation of AS into JS. I'm using the Google Closure Tools to
augment standard JS to try and match the original AS language
features. This is coming along nicely, but I'm sure the devil will be
in the details. Read more on the 'goog' way here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/AS+to+JS+-+the+%27goog%27+Way
FalconJx future: once we have AS (and hopefully MXML, at some point)
translating into JS and have functional tests in place, the challenge
will become to come up with both AS and JS framework to actually allow
for application development. I'm silly enough to still cling to the
idea that we'll be able to use (most of) the Flex SDK and create a
compatible JS library... but I'm sure others will declare me insane
for just dreaming about that :-)
Have fun,
EdB
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a "regular"
> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too technical
> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
> the status of the project is at this moment.
>
> Questions I have:
>
> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
> browser already?
> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with FalconJx
> instead of Flash Player?
> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
> (history) and the DOM?
>
> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
> this moment
>
> Fréderic Cox
>
>
>
>
> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
>>Hey all,
>>
>>Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>>cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>>is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>
>>This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>>chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>>down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>>functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>--
>>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
--
Ix Multimedia Software
Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht
T. 06-51952295
I. www.ixsoftware.nl
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>:
> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a "regular"
> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too technical
> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
> the status of the project is at this moment.
>
> Questions I have:
>
> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
> browser already?
No
> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with FalconJx
> instead of Flash Player?
No
> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
> (history) and the DOM?
No idea. :)
> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
> this moment
>
> Fréderic Cox
>
What FalconJx is at the moment is a cross compiler for ActionScript
business logic to JavaScript business logic.
We are still in building stages right now. I announced what I did to
let others know there is something being actively developed that has
to do with JavaScript.
So, to answer your question, there is no majic happening, yet...
Just stay tuned, when there is something to try, you will know.
Mike
>
>
> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>
>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/18/13 3:24 AM, "Fréderic Cox" <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a "regular"
> AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too technical
> for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
> the status of the project is at this moment.
>
> Questions I have:
>
> - I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
> browser already?
Your AS3 project uses Flash APIs for its visuals. There are folks who think
we can emulate the Flash APIs well enough to render an app in the browser
DOM, but I think that's a lot of work, which is why I have proposed and
prototyped an alternative of using parallel frameworks and require that you
have good separation of views from other logic. See:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype
> - I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with FalconJx
> instead of Flash Player?
Your Flex project not only uses Flash APIs it also uses the Flex SDK APIs.
The Flex SDK is not written in a way the easily runs in a browser without
Flash. It might be possible to make that happens someday, but my vision is
to create a new SDK that is better designed to work in both Flash and the
browser. It will feel like Flex but have some API and pattern differences.
My personal goal is to be able to eventually do about 80% of what Flex does
today over the next few years.
> - Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
> the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
> (history) and the DOM?
Even new JS-based RIAs have to deal with the pages paradigm. Flex's
BrowserManager uses the same technique many JS-based RIAs do. We will be
adding similar support to the ASJS framework. At least in the early
versions, I expect that you will not do DOM manipulation directly:
everything will have to go through the new framework, so you won't be able
to do "everything", but that's generally a price you have to pay when
dealing with multiple targets.
>
> Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
> this moment
>
> Fréderic Cox
>
>
>
>
> On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>> cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>> is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>>
>> This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>> chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>> down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>> functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --
>> Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>> http://www.teotigraphix.com
>> http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>>
>
>
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [FalconJx] where I'm going to be
Posted by Fréderic Cox <co...@gmail.com>.
I'm following your work with great interest, but I'm afraid as a "regular"
AS3 developer with no background in compilers this is a bit too technical
for me. I was wondering if you could explain in a non-technical way what
the status of the project is at this moment.
Questions I have:
- I have an AS3 project, what can I do with FalconJx? Will it run in the
browser already?
- I have a Flex project with MXML, can it run in the browser with FalconJx
instead of Flash Player?
- Is it technically possible to write in AS3/MXML and without Flash run
the content in the browser, how does it reflect to the "pages" paradigm
(history) and the DOM?
Thanks for your hard work, just trying to understand where we are at at
this moment
Fréderic Cox
On 18/01/13 12:19, "Michael Schmalle" <ap...@teotigraphix.com> wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>Since the project is really taking shape thanks to our great
>cooperation, I am going to focus on the nemesis I have left and that
>is finishing of the ActionScript emitter.
>
>This project blew up fast with Erik contributing, I didn't get a
>chance to fully finish the ActionScript impl. Yes, I might have plans
>down the road to make a read/write AS DOM and having a fully
>functional AS3 emitter is essential.
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
>http://www.teotigraphix.com
>http://blog.teotigraphix.com
>