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Posted to community@apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2003/01/08 04:12:50 UTC
email notification done...sorta
So I have email notification sorta working. I can't get the diffs
included..
Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
To see the error (which since I cant fix it, you all are obviously not
good enough to fix) subscribe to wikidiffs@apache.org
-jAndy.pl.NET
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> writes:
> Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
> the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
I like to think that is because this community consists of a lot of good
software engineers. People who run and hide at the thought of even
opening a 4500 line Perl script.
Yes, I suppose we are all talk. But, despite your "shut up, I'll do it
myself" attitude, isn't communication and important part of a community?
Open dialog is healthy.
-- jt
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> -jAndy.pl.NET
ROTFL :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 05:51:55PM +1100, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 10:26:41PM -0800, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
> >
> > And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
> > and make changes and adjustments.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
> > it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
Costin: spot on. Thx.
> If you like. Then what I'm describing is in this article Sam once
> posted:
>
> http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
Ah. Reliance on a "higher authority". I think there is a term for that...
:-)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 10:26:41PM -0800, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
>
> And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
> and make changes and adjustments.
Agreed.
> I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
> it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
If you like. Then what I'm describing is in this article Sam once
posted:
http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
--Jeff
> Costin
...
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>>ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>>
>
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
Rolling On the Floor Laughing My *** Off.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
> >
> > ROFLMAO!!! :-D
> >
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
> Nice for a wiki page or something :)
AcronymFinder is our friend:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=ROFLMAO&Find=Find
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Friday, January 10, 2003 6:44 AM -0800 Aaron Bannert
<aa...@clove.org> wrote:
> I got it from fink, which gets it from this URL (part of netbsd?)
> http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/basesrc/games/wtf/
> wtf?rev=%v&content-type=text/plain
I tried to install it last night from fink and figured out that that
URL is wrong. It should be:
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/games/wtf/wtf?rev=
HEAD
You also need the acronyms file from:
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/misc/acronym
s?rev=HEAD
NetBSD's CVSWeb is *really* slow. -- justin
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
I got it from fink, which gets it from this URL (part of netbsd?)
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/basesrc/games/wtf/
wtf?rev=%v&content-type=text/plain
-aaron
On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 04:15 AM, Ben Laurie wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
>> aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
>> ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
>> (wtf is a cool utility)
>
> I like - where does it come from?
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
> ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
>
> (wtf is a cool utility)
I like - where does it come from?
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
(wtf is a cool utility)
-aaron
On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:58 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
>>
>> ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>>
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
> Nice for a wiki page or something :)
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
>
> ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>
I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
Nice for a wiki page or something :)
Mvgr,
Martin
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> If SubWiki is used any time soon, dumping the history seems reasonable.
> Finally, my chance to rewrite history .... ;)
ROFLMAO!!! :-D
--- Noel
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote (technical details omitted):
> > *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
> > data out of UseModWiki.
>
> Sounds like your approach follows the truism that in the worst case any open
> source code that can read its own data can be instrumented to become its own
> migration tool.
>
> What would you guess is the relative effort to preserve the history? I'm
> just wondering if the history value at the cut-over point will be worth the
> incremental effort, unless you want to do it anyway as a proof-of-concept
> for similar migrations.
If SubWiki is used any time soon, dumping the history seems reasonable.
Finally, my chance to rewrite history .... ;)
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Greg Stein wrote (technical details omitted):
> *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
> data out of UseModWiki.
Sounds like your approach follows the truism that in the worst case any open
source code that can read its own data can be instrumented to become its own
migration tool.
What would you guess is the relative effort to preserve the history? I'm
just wondering if the history value at the cut-over point will be worth the
incremental effort, unless you want to do it anyway as a proof-of-concept
for similar migrations.
--- Noel
wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 01:22:02PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Because wiki's tend to fill with content rapdily, once you
> > > use them for a little while you are pretty much locked in.
>
> > Counterpoint?
>
> Personally, I'm getting mileage out of UseModWiki, despite its issues. I
> wouldn't want to have to move every page in the Wiki, but I could cut &
> paste the content for our section if I didn't have a migration tool. At the
> moment, the content volume might not warrant a tool, and if the content
> volume did, it could certainly be written.
Migrating the latest pages will be easy. I know enough Perl to do that.
Migrating history would be tougher, but should still be doable. (I'd dump it
all out and write a Python script to load it into SVN via the language
bindings to the svn repository)
So, no... *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
data out of UseModWiki.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
--- Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> >
> > It certainly is easier to migrate content that
> exists, even if it is in
> > the wrong format, than content that does not
> exist.
>
> +1!
>
> as usual, sam demonstrates his uncanny knack to cut
> through the
> persiflage to one of the real issues.
> --
> #ken P-)}
Persiflage. Consider my vocabulary expanded.
Although if my dictionary does not deceive me,
persiflage is similar to "banter" in connotation. Let
me dig into my lexicon. How about "crap"? :)
- Morgan
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> It certainly is easier to migrate content that exists, even if it is in
> the wrong format, than content that does not exist.
+1!
as usual, sam demonstrates his uncanny knack to cut through the
persiflage to one of the real issues.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
RE: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Because wiki's tend to fill with content rapdily, once you
> > use them for a little while you are pretty much locked in.
> Counterpoint?
Personally, I'm getting mileage out of UseModWiki, despite its issues. I
wouldn't want to have to move every page in the Wiki, but I could cut &
paste the content for our section if I didn't have a migration tool. At the
moment, the content volume might not warrant a tool, and if the content
volume did, it could certainly be written.
--- Noel
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Taylor wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 23:58, Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>>it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
>>nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
>>sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
>
> I agree in general, but the Wiki is a great example of a place where a
> little more forward thinking might have been a good idea. Because wiki's
> tend to fill with content rapdily, once you use them for a little while
> you are pretty much locked in. Especially given this comment:
Counterpoint? (No, I don't want to become embroiled in this dicussion).
It certainly is easier to migrate content that exists, even if it is in
the wrong format, than content that does not exist.
- Sam Ruby
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
James Taylor wrote:
>
>>>How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
>>
>>The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
>>work will be needed.
>
> Brilliant!
what's yer beef? at least something got *done*!
/me runs away
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
migrating UseModWiki data (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 07:50:35AM -0500, James Taylor wrote:
>...
> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 16:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> > > How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
> >
> > The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
> > work will be needed.
>
> Brilliant!
It doesn't appear to be too hard to extract the data. The developer FAQ's
first question covers this:
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UseModWiki/DeveloperQuestions
A short little Perl script should dump the stuff out quite handily. I can
then import that all into Subversion.
Retaining the change history would be more work, but is possible.
Thankfully, and unlike the problem posed to cvs2svn, UseModWiki changes just
one page at a time, so a history conversion tool would not need to aggregate
commits. It would just sort the changes by time, and then load those into
the SVN repository.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 23:58, Jeff Turner wrote:
> it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
> nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
> sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
I agree in general, but the Wiki is a great example of a place where a
little more forward thinking might have been a good idea. Because wiki's
tend to fill with content rapdily, once you use them for a little while
you are pretty much locked in. Especially given this comment:
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 16:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> > How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
>
> The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
> work will be needed.
Brilliant!
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
and make changes and adjustments.
I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
Costin
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 12:50:55PM -0800, Greg Stein wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:17:38PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
> > >...
> > > - he was criticized for a message that he made
> > > in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
> > > that intent.
> >
> > To be honest, I usually find people who say "but that was a joke" are simply
> > trying to cover up a social blunder under the ruse of "you didn't get it."
> > Whether the case here or not, it certainly was non-obvious.
>
> FYI,
>
> Jakarta has a tradition of people like Jon Stevens bitching at everyone
> else for being all talk and no action. This is many people's first
> exposure to the idea of meritocracy. It's no good whining about "it's
> all wrong, someone should fix it"; there is no 'someone', there's just
> *you*. Something wrong with the website? Send a patch. Think there
> should be a newsletter? Congratulations, you're the editor. Want a
> Wiki? Bug someone for karma and go install it. This is not anarchy and
> it's *not* democracy, it's a meritocracy. The Doers' opinion has more
> weight than the Talkers. Stuff happens because people make it happen.
> Generally it happens with some form of consensus in the larger community,
> but once the "what" is agreed on, the "how" is up to people willing to do
> the work.
>
> I think that is what Andy was attempting to convey. I 'got' the joke
> immediately because plays on an underlying theme at Jakarta. One
> evidently not present here.
>
> > And why did he unsubscribe? We can make guesses, but that's about it. Unless
> > he clarifies further in his blog or posts elsewhere...
> >
> > > "Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
> > > the appropriate model for group projects.
> >
> > Right.
>
> Slogans deliberately oversimplify. "Just Do It" must be compared to
> "Just Talk About It". If it comes to slogans, I know which I'd prefer.
>
> > > Yes, it makes things happen. But
> > > when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
> > > sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
> > > examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
> > > concensus.
>
> 100% consensus on things like how a Wiki system should work is never
> going to emerge. After 80% consensus on the broad issues (like whether
> to have a Wiki at all) emerges, it's best to get something (anything)
> done, rather than wait for the last 20%.
>
> > > Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject, "Just Do
> > > It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
> > > potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code.
> > > Am I missing something?
> >
> > You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
> > inconsiderate towards your peers. "I don't care about your opinion, I'm just
> > getting it done." It certainly doesn't help foster a community based on
> > mutual respect.
>
> Attacking the "Just Do It" slogan is easy. It's a straw man. The
> *actual* POV that (I guess) Andy was promoting is more complex: YES, by
> all means gain overall consensus, but once you've established "what",
> don't let the differing opinions on "how" prevent action. In this view,
> it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
> nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
> sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
>
>
> --Jeff
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
RE: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jeff,
Unless I missed a discussion elsewhere (I'm only on community@ and
infrastructure@, as well as project lists), Andy appeared to be complaining
about (a) people asking for changes to the Wiki without contributing
patches, and (b) the current lack of consensus on how to integrate
push-model into the Wiki.
This seems ironic to me, since Andy talked about how the Wiki would help
non-account holders to develop documentation, but appears to have had little
patience for the fact that such Wiki USERS might want changes that they
wouldn't implement. This is a good example for why One Man Codebases don't
work; it takes a Community.
Perhaps it was said elsewhere, but I didn't see anyone say "Wiki? Yuck.
Get rid of it!" What I did see were people saying, "Great! And thanks!
But now that we have one, we want to make even better use of it, and so we
need ..." And those comments seem to come from people who are using the
Wiki.
--- Noel
Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 12:50:55PM -0800, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:17:38PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
> >...
> > - he was criticized for a message that he made
> > in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
> > that intent.
>
> To be honest, I usually find people who say "but that was a joke" are simply
> trying to cover up a social blunder under the ruse of "you didn't get it."
> Whether the case here or not, it certainly was non-obvious.
FYI,
Jakarta has a tradition of people like Jon Stevens bitching at everyone
else for being all talk and no action. This is many people's first
exposure to the idea of meritocracy. It's no good whining about "it's
all wrong, someone should fix it"; there is no 'someone', there's just
*you*. Something wrong with the website? Send a patch. Think there
should be a newsletter? Congratulations, you're the editor. Want a
Wiki? Bug someone for karma and go install it. This is not anarchy and
it's *not* democracy, it's a meritocracy. The Doers' opinion has more
weight than the Talkers. Stuff happens because people make it happen.
Generally it happens with some form of consensus in the larger community,
but once the "what" is agreed on, the "how" is up to people willing to do
the work.
I think that is what Andy was attempting to convey. I 'got' the joke
immediately because plays on an underlying theme at Jakarta. One
evidently not present here.
> And why did he unsubscribe? We can make guesses, but that's about it. Unless
> he clarifies further in his blog or posts elsewhere...
>
> > "Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
> > the appropriate model for group projects.
>
> Right.
Slogans deliberately oversimplify. "Just Do It" must be compared to
"Just Talk About It". If it comes to slogans, I know which I'd prefer.
> > Yes, it makes things happen. But
> > when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
> > sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
> > examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
> > concensus.
100% consensus on things like how a Wiki system should work is never
going to emerge. After 80% consensus on the broad issues (like whether
to have a Wiki at all) emerges, it's best to get something (anything)
done, rather than wait for the last 20%.
> > Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject, "Just Do
> > It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
> > potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code.
> > Am I missing something?
>
> You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
> inconsiderate towards your peers. "I don't care about your opinion, I'm just
> getting it done." It certainly doesn't help foster a community based on
> mutual respect.
Attacking the "Just Do It" slogan is easy. It's a straw man. The
*actual* POV that (I guess) Andy was promoting is more complex: YES, by
all means gain overall consensus, but once you've established "what",
don't let the differing opinions on "how" prevent action. In this view,
it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
--Jeff
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
> inconsiderate towards your peers.
Actually, that is what I meant when I said "'Just Do It' results in one
person's vision being realized, and a cycle of potentially conflicting
changes necessary to stabilize the code." I should have elaborated, since I
was depicting "Just Do it" as somewhat destructive in that context.
--- Noel
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:17:38PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
>...
> - he was criticized for a message that he made
> in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
> that intent.
To be honest, I usually find people who say "but that was a joke" are simply
trying to cover up a social blunder under the ruse of "you didn't get it."
Whether the case here or not, it certainly was non-obvious.
And why did he unsubscribe? We can make guesses, but that's about it. Unless
he clarifies further in his blog or posts elsewhere...
> "Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
> the appropriate model for group projects.
Right.
> Yes, it makes things happen. But
> when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
> sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
> examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
> concensus. Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject,
> "Just Do It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
> potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code. Am I
> missing something?
You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
inconsiderate towards your peers. "I don't care about your opinion, I'm just
getting it done." It certainly doesn't help foster a community based on
mutual respect.
> I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the intent is to
> switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in Java. Are there more
> Python coders than Perl here?
It is probably about the same number, but the SubWiki author is "here" while
the UseModWiki author is not :-)
To be honest, any kind of "switch" would be based on features rather than on
the language. (and the fact that I can maintain our installation)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 03:49:06PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Justin,
>
> I don't particularly care which Wiki we use, so if one has benefits over the
> other, great. But I would like to see the content migrated from usemodwiki
> to Subwiki if that's what is going to be used. How viable is it to machine
> migrate the content?
Dunno. The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
work will be needed. I just dunno, but I'm not too concerned about any
migration at this point.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Justin,
I don't particularly care which Wiki we use, so if one has benefits over the
other, great. But I would like to see the content migrated from usemodwiki
to Subwiki if that's what is going to be used. How viable is it to machine
migrate the content?
--- Noel
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Wednesday, January 8, 2003 2:17 PM -0500 "Noel J. Bergman"
<no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the
> intent is to switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in
> Java. Are there more Python coders than Perl here?
Certainly more than Perl. =) I know Perl just fine, but I won't
touch it unless I have to.
If we use a Java wiki, that means we can't use it on icarus. If it
is in python, it can be part of our infrastructure.
Not that I care too much if we use the SubWiki installation or not,
but if we do, I think it is goodness. The real good thing is that
you don't have to use the wiki interface to edit the pages. You can
also use the CVS model to edit it. -- justin
Re: python foo
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Greg Stein wrote:
> > $matrix = [
> > [1, 2, 3],
> > [4, 5, 6],
> > [7, 8, 9] ];
> > print $matrix->[1][2];
>
> Very cool. Man, I wish that woulda worked when I tried it.
>
> > A little more punctuation, but, then, you'd expect that from Perl.
> >
> > You must have a very lame Perl hacker at your disposal. ;-)
>
> This was sometime around 1996, I believe. Perl 4, if I recall. Is it
> possible that it wasn't so easy in Perl 4?
Ah. No. Not possible in Perl 4. That was back in the dark ages! ;-) I
guess I did not realize that Python was already around back then.
References (aka pointers, only not) appeared in Perl 5, and are what
makes this syntax posibble.
--
Nothing is perfekt. Certainly not me.
Success to failure. Just a matter of degrees.
fu
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
>>
>>> ... Perl ...
>> ... Python ...
>>
I can't say as I recall one of these my-language/your-language
discussions ending well at any point in the last 35 years. It's very
close to arguing if my life philosophy is better than yours. I think
it might be better, if people want to go down that path, to broaden the
discussion into one closer to comparative religion.
I very much enjoyed, and still do, in depth comparative language study.
When the computer science community was much less tightly connected -
so that the opportunities for network effects were much weaker - there
were dozens and dozens of really fascinating programming languages
micro-lanaguages for specific domains.
Some of my favorites...
SETL (NY University) was pretty amazing. It pretty much only had hash
tables. After a while they managed to get's compiler so elegant that
it started to automatically optimize programs into algorithms that a
few years before had seemed to be serious inventions - for example it
could discover spanning tree based algorithms. As far as I know this
branch of elegance has died out. There was a very amusing moment when
the SETL folks wrote an Ada compiler years before anybody else managed
to get one written.
Simula ( which was cira 1968, had all the modern tools for writing
object oriented multi-threaded programs. Almost all the neat ideas in
Simula were reinvented every 2-3 years till today. This tradition is
probably still alive in ELang (which takes a light dose of Prolog-fu as
well). I can't too highly recommend a study of the ELang light-wieght
threading model to people working on distributed systems.
The SNOBOL .. ICON (University of Arizona) had some very nice ideas
about how to manage the control stack of a program to get search,
iteration, pattern-matching. There was a very interesting language in
this line that broke the act of calling a function into it's component
parts (binding, dispatching, returning etc.) and then managed to let
you compose those to create iteration generators etc.
I enjoyed working on a number of graphic layout languages. DOT is one
of the modern examples.
I bet some other people here know of some sweet historical examples.
Etc. etc. etc.
Re: python foo
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 05:39:42PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>...
> > (and don't ask me about the time I tried to do a hash of hashes of hashes in
> > Perl... even with Perl hacker help, I gave up; Perl just wouldn't do it)
>
> Oh, come on. I do hashes of hashes of hashes frequently in Perl. And
> hashes of hashes of arrays of hashes of arrays. And ... well, other
> permutations.
Sure, I know it is possible, but really. At the time, it just didn't work.
Really. Not some kind of lamer-fu.
> And the syntax for a multi-dimensional array is almost
> indistinguishable from the example you gave in Python.
>
> $matrix = [
> [1, 2, 3],
> [4, 5, 6],
> [7, 8, 9] ];
> print $matrix->[1][2];
Very cool. Man, I wish that woulda worked when I tried it.
> A little more punctuation, but, then, you'd expect that from Perl.
>
> You must have a very lame Perl hacker at your disposal. ;-)
This was sometime around 1996, I believe. Perl 4, if I recall. Is it
possible that it wasn't so easy in Perl 4?
And yah... if the two guys that I was getting help from didn't get it, then
I'd be surprised (I respect the guys, quite a bit)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: python foo (was: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> But out of the box? Python has multidimensional arrays. Not sure what you're
> smoking :-)
I said *better* support. I didn't say that Python doesn't support them.
The creation and manipulation of multidimensional arrays was the only
thing I found to be cumbersome and harder than in java, until I found
Numberic Python which does have a bunch of API that help you a lot with
those. But at the end, I was able to go around the problem myself. Just
took a while. In fact, there are a couple of requests for enhancements
on python.org exactly about this so I assume I'm not the only one who
had this problem.
Ah, btw, yes, I'm not sure about what I have been smoking either :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: python foo (was: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Greg Stein wrote:
> >>> array = [ [1, 2, 3],
> ... [4, 5, 6],
> ... [7, 8, 9] ]
> >>> print array[1][2]
> 6
> >>> sparse = { (1,2): 6, (2,1): 8 }
> >>> sparse[1,2]
> 6
> >>>
>
> (and don't ask me about the time I tried to do a hash of hashes of hashes in
> Perl... even with Perl hacker help, I gave up; Perl just wouldn't do it)
Oh, come on. I do hashes of hashes of hashes frequently in Perl. And
hashes of hashes of arrays of hashes of arrays. And ... well, other
permutations.
And the syntax for a multi-dimensional array is almost
indistinguishable from the example you gave in Python.
$matrix = [
[1, 2, 3],
[4, 5, 6],
[7, 8, 9] ];
print $matrix->[1][2];
A little more punctuation, but, then, you'd expect that from Perl.
You must have a very lame Perl hacker at your disposal. ;-)
- --
Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the sky on laughter-silvered wings
--High Flight (John Gillespie Magee)
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python foo (was: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 08:42:58AM -0800, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> David N. Welton wrote:
>...
> > Anyone can code in Python. It's easy, and it runs anywhere. Not
> > quite an offer of help, but... if you have figured out one programming
> > language, picking up Python will not be hard, nor unpleasant.
>
> That's been my experience... but python really needs better support for
> multidimensional arrays :-) or merge numeric python in the default
> language. But anyway...
Huh?
>>> array = [ [1, 2, 3],
... [4, 5, 6],
... [7, 8, 9] ]
>>> print array[1][2]
6
>>> sparse = { (1,2): 6, (2,1): 8 }
>>> sparse[1,2]
6
>>>
The Numeric package is for high-performance numeric computation. Most users
don't need that kind of heavy-lifting. There are also some semantic oddities
in the package that need to be ironed about before it could move into the
core Python distribution.
But out of the box? Python has multidimensional arrays. Not sure what you're
smoking :-)
(and don't ask me about the time I tried to do a hash of hashes of hashes in
Perl... even with Perl hacker help, I gave up; Perl just wouldn't do it)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
David N. Welton wrote:
> "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> writes:
>
>
>>I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the
>>intent is to switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in
>>Java. Are there more Python coders than Perl here?
>
>
> Anyone can code in Python. It's easy, and it runs anywhere. Not
> quite an offer of help, but... if you have figured out one programming
> language, picking up Python will not be hard, nor unpleasant.
That's been my experience... but python really needs better support for
multidimensional arrays :-) or merge numeric python in the default
language. But anyway...
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> writes:
> I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the
> intent is to switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in
> Java. Are there more Python coders than Perl here?
Anyone can code in Python. It's easy, and it runs anywhere. Not
quite an offer of help, but... if you have figured out one programming
language, picking up Python will not be hard, nor unpleasant.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@collab.net>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the intent is to
> switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in Java. Are there more
> Python coders than Perl here?
Hell Yeah.
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
And having still read over his web log, I'm really not sure why.
Seems to me that:
- the wiki is a good thing, and is being used.
otherwise, no one would have made suggestions
or cared.
- as indicated by "stop replying to me with just
more requests, JustDoIt", he took each request
personally, rather than as a general request,
and didn't take into account whether the person
making the request was appropriate to implement
the change. The fallacy of Open Source is "the
source code is available, do it yourself."
- he didn't get help from the relatively few
Perl programmers in an "immediate" timeframe
over the course of Xmas and New Year's.
- he was criticized for a message that he made
in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
that intent.
"Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
the appropriate model for group projects. Yes, it makes things happen. But
when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
concensus. Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject,
"Just Do It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code. Am I
missing something?
I'm going to be curious to see how Subwiki works out -- if the intent is to
switch --- being in Python, not Perl, but still not in Java. Are there more
Python coders than Perl here?
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:mvdb@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 13:12
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: email notification done...sorta
Andy unsubscribed btw..
http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe+apache@sunstarsys.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 19:12
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: email notification done...sorta
>
>
> "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > I was going to reply that perhaps the choice of usemodwiki was a good
> > one as a turnkey thing, but perhaps not the best choice for the long
> > term due to the lack of competent Perl programmers willing to
> > contribute. At the moment, Danny Angus and Rick Bowen are the two
> > who've stepped forward, and both of them have other primary
> > involvements, not to mention this being the first week that many
> > people are back from spending time with family.
>
> I was/am also planning to help, and I did look over the usemodwiki
> source to get acquainted with it. However, I don't have any
> experience with wikis, nor with RSS, so I also need to bring myself
> up to speed on the technology- according to *my own* (free)
> timetable. Part of that learning process is simply watching
> how experienced people operate, and then trying to mimic their
> behavior. Or not, as the case may be.
>
> > On the other hand, we've a lot more competent server-side Java
> > contributors.
>
> Right. To my knowledge, there are only a dozen or so active
> committers that work on perl-related ASF projects.
>
> --
> Joe Schaefer
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <mv...@apache.org>.
Andy unsubscribed btw..
http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe+apache@sunstarsys.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 19:12
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: email notification done...sorta
>
>
> "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > I was going to reply that perhaps the choice of usemodwiki was a good
> > one as a turnkey thing, but perhaps not the best choice for the long
> > term due to the lack of competent Perl programmers willing to
> > contribute. At the moment, Danny Angus and Rick Bowen are the two
> > who've stepped forward, and both of them have other primary
> > involvements, not to mention this being the first week that many
> > people are back from spending time with family.
>
> I was/am also planning to help, and I did look over the usemodwiki
> source to get acquainted with it. However, I don't have any
> experience with wikis, nor with RSS, so I also need to bring myself
> up to speed on the technology- according to *my own* (free)
> timetable. Part of that learning process is simply watching
> how experienced people operate, and then trying to mimic their
> behavior. Or not, as the case may be.
>
> > On the other hand, we've a lot more competent server-side Java
> > contributors.
>
> Right. To my knowledge, there are only a dozen or so active
> committers that work on perl-related ASF projects.
>
> --
> Joe Schaefer
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> writes:
[...]
> I was going to reply that perhaps the choice of usemodwiki was a good
> one as a turnkey thing, but perhaps not the best choice for the long
> term due to the lack of competent Perl programmers willing to
> contribute. At the moment, Danny Angus and Rick Bowen are the two
> who've stepped forward, and both of them have other primary
> involvements, not to mention this being the first week that many
> people are back from spending time with family.
I was/am also planning to help, and I did look over the usemodwiki
source to get acquainted with it. However, I don't have any
experience with wikis, nor with RSS, so I also need to bring myself
up to speed on the technology- according to *my own* (free)
timetable. Part of that learning process is simply watching
how experienced people operate, and then trying to mimic their
behavior. Or not, as the case may be.
> On the other hand, we've a lot more competent server-side Java
> contributors.
Right. To my knowledge, there are only a dozen or so active
committers that work on perl-related ASF projects.
--
Joe Schaefer
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > > Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
> > > the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
> > I'm getting quite sick of your "you're all talk" attitude.
> > > Chill the hell out.
> damn. I was joking around. sheesh.
That was not at all clear from your note.
I was going to reply that perhaps the choice of usemodwiki was a good one as
a turnkey thing, but perhaps not the best choice for the long term due to
the lack of competent Perl programmers willing to contribute. At the
moment, Danny Angus and Rick Bowen are the two who've stepped forward, and
both of them have other primary involvements, not to mention this being the
first week that many people are back from spending time with family. On the
other hand, we've a lot more competent server-side Java contributors.
As for flame bait, I don't get the joke. Isn't "Why do we still have this
rediculous JakartaVelocity project? JSP long superceded it!" a simple
statement of fact?
--- Noel
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> Andy,
>
> I'm getting quite sick of your "you're all talk" attitude.
>
> Chill the hell out.
>
> -g
>
damn. I was joking around. sheesh.
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:12:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>>So I have email notification sorta working. I can't get the diffs
>>included..
>>
>>Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
>>the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
>>
>>To see the error (which since I cant fix it, you all are obviously not
>>good enough to fix) subscribe to wikidiffs@apache.org
>
>
> Andy,
>
> I'm getting quite sick of your "you're all talk" attitude.
>
> Chill the hell out.
Knowing Andy the small I got to know him, I believe he was joking, Greg.
Was trying to be funny.
Obviously, Andy still hasn't figured out that you can't take humor so
deep and pretend that others that don't know you, nor know your
attitude, laugh.
Sure, a couple of smileys here and there would have helped.
Oh, what the hell...
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 10:12:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> So I have email notification sorta working. I can't get the diffs
> included..
>
> Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
> the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
>
> To see the error (which since I cant fix it, you all are obviously not
> good enough to fix) subscribe to wikidiffs@apache.org
Andy,
I'm getting quite sick of your "you're all talk" attitude.
Chill the hell out.
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
RE: email notification done...sorta
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> For those of you who are humor-impaired, or not aware of the Perl "Acme"
> meme, the Acme::* line of modules on CPAN are jokes.
Aha! :-) I knew there was a joke in there somewhere, but that little
tidbit does help to illuminate the punchline.
--- Noel
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Rich Bowen wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > So I have email notification sorta working. I can't get the diffs
> > included..
> >
> > Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
> > the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
>
> It's Perl, not PERL. So evidentally not. ;-) See Acme::Inline::PERL on
> CPAN for a handy way to convert from PERL to Perl.
For those of you who are humor-impaired, or not aware of the Perl "Acme"
meme, the Acme::* line of modules on CPAN are jokes. Like my module,
Acme::Time::Asparagus, which tells you the time on my kitchen vegetable
clock. Or Acme::Time::Baby which tells you "the little hand is on the
..." kind of time, in 8 languages.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
Author - Apache Administrator's Guide
http://www.ApacheAdmin.com/
Re: email notification done...sorta
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> So I have email notification sorta working. I can't get the diffs
> included..
>
> Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
> the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
It's Perl, not PERL. So evidentally not. ;-) See Acme::Inline::PERL on
CPAN for a handy way to convert from PERL to Perl.
I've not had a chance to work on the Wiki, as I suggested I might be
able to, since it has necessarily taken a lower priority than some other
things in Real Life. However, this is no way to motivate me.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
Author - Apache Administrator's Guide
http://www.ApacheAdmin.com/