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Posted to dev@turbine.apache.org by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> on 2007/04/14 01:29:31 UTC
[DISCUSS] TLP?
There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable
us to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP)
consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
(PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
together.
Scott
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Peter Courcoux <pe...@courcoux.biz>.
Hi Thomas,
I will see what I can dig out.
Regards,
Peter
Thomas Vandahl wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> Peter Courcoux wrote:
>
>> I am still using Turbine (svn head). I still keep an eye on the lists
>> and am still interested. If I can help, I will. Fortunately for me I am
>> kept very busy with paying work. Unfortunately, this keeps me from being
>> able to commit as much time as I would like to the Turbine project.
>>
>
> Good to hear from you. I dimly remember that you use some home-grown
> Fortress adapter for Turbine, is that correct? If so, could you please
> give me the code, cause I would like to test some things with pooled
> service instances which YAAFI doesn't support? There are some strange
> things happening in the code of the parser handling (see TRB-42)
>
>
> Bye, Thomas
>
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>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Hi Peter,
Peter Courcoux wrote:
> I am still using Turbine (svn head). I still keep an eye on the lists
> and am still interested. If I can help, I will. Fortunately for me I am
> kept very busy with paying work. Unfortunately, this keeps me from being
> able to commit as much time as I would like to the Turbine project.
Good to hear from you. I dimly remember that you use some home-grown
Fortress adapter for Turbine, is that correct? If so, could you please
give me the code, cause I would like to test some things with pooled
service instances which YAAFI doesn't support? There are some strange
things happening in the code of the parser handling (see TRB-42)
Bye, Thomas
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Peter Courcoux <pe...@courcoux.biz>.
Hi Scott,
I am still using Turbine (svn head). I still keep an eye on the lists
and am still interested. If I can help, I will. Fortunately for me I am
kept very busy with paying work. Unfortunately, this keeps me from being
able to commit as much time as I would like to the Turbine project.
Regards,
Peter
Scott Eade wrote:
> There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
> sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
> activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
> perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
>
> While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
> people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to
> enable us to put together a proposal to become a top level project
> (TLP) consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
>
> What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
> available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
> (PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
> terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
> goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
>
> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
>
> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a
> proposal together.
>
> Scott
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Jeff Brekke <jb...@wi.rr.com>.
I would be willing to participate in a Turbine PMC. We have many
projects that use and rely upon different versions of Turbine and would
like to continue to contribute and see the project continue.
Scott Eade wrote:
> There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
> sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
> activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
> perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
>
> While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
> people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable
> us to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP)
> consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
>
> What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
> available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
> (PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
> terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
> goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
>
> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
>
> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> together.
--
=====================================================================
Jeffrey D. Brekke jbrekke@wi.rr.com
Wisconsin, USA brekke@apache.org
ekkerbj@yahoo.com
ekkerbj@gmail.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>.
Hi Will,
The level of participation you are offering would be fine - providing
oversight such that we are able to maintain the necessary number of
binding votes to keep things working is something we will need to
demonstrate that we can do.
Scott
Will Glass-Husain wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> I rely heavily on Turbine, though silent on the mailing lists. (I'm much
> more active in the Velocity TLP).
>
> I'd be willing to be on the PMC if it was helpful to keep the project
> alive,
> though my involvement would likely be light -- e.g. related to oversight
> rather than direct coding. If that's not enough, then I'm happy to stay on
> the developer lists and just contribute in discussion there.
>
> WILL
>
>
>
> On 4/13/07, Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
>> sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
>> activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
>> perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
>>
>> While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
>> people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable
>> us to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP)
>> consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
>>
>> What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
>> available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
>> (PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
>> terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
>> goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
>>
>> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
>> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
>>
>> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
>> together.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@gmail.com>.
Hi Scott,
I rely heavily on Turbine, though silent on the mailing lists. (I'm much
more active in the Velocity TLP).
I'd be willing to be on the PMC if it was helpful to keep the project alive,
though my involvement would likely be light -- e.g. related to oversight
rather than direct coding. If that's not enough, then I'm happy to stay on
the developer lists and just contribute in discussion there.
WILL
On 4/13/07, Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> wrote:
>
> There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
> sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
> activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
> perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
>
> While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
> people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable
> us to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP)
> consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
>
> What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
> available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
> (PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
> terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
> goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
>
> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
>
> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> together.
>
> Scott
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Scott Eade wrote:
> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
I'm too much a rookie to oversee the consequences of that TLP-thingy.
But yes, absolutely, I want Turbine to live long and prosper and I would
happily be available for the PMC.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> I can help you cutting an RC @ AC EU Hackathon.
Its all about "wrestling" again, isn't it? :-) Yes, we can go the first
steps, but let me first get Torque 3.3 out of the door.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Thomas Vandahl <th...@tewisoft.de> writes:
>I'd suggest to do a 2.3.x release in the near^H^H^H^Hnot to far future
>to make some of the changes publicly available.
I can help you cutting an RC @ AC EU Hackathon.
Best regards
Henning
--
Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE, Linux, |gls
91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache person |eau
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine guy |rwc
|m k
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB 7350 |a s
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
"Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <th...@tewisoft.de>.
Scott Eade wrote:
> * Decide on a VP and fill in the blank on the proposal. I will gladly
> support anyone else that nominates themselves for this role, but will
> nominate myself in the absence of any other offers.
I think that you would be the right person for the PMC chair, as Henning
already suggested and I will be happy to support you (and learn!).
> * Reading the Velocity TLP mail archive there was discussion concerning:
> -- Dormancy. This was dismissed fairly quickly, but similar arguments
> could be applied to Turbine. At the end of the day we have a bunch of
> committers (including members) that are interested in seeing patches
> applied and continued incremental progress on Turbine and it's related
> Fulcrum components.
I guess this would be a good time to clean up a bit in the heap of
Fulcrum components (the good into the pot, the bad into the crop). That
would make things easier to maintain.
> -- Future plans. While we do occasionally discuss this, we should take
> advantage of the Wiki to document this a little better. Again, the
> reality is that with limited time available we are progressing only
> slowly towards our next Turbine release. I do not however feel that
> this is a problem - progress is being made and fixes are being
> backported to the 2.3 branch as necessary.
I'd suggest to do a 2.3.x release in the near^H^H^H^Hnot to far future
to make some of the changes publicly available.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> IMHO the whole Fulcrum issue gets more and more moot. Avalon has
> obviously failed, Excalibur is intentionally kept at a very low
> profile and just lost two of its biggest supporters (James to Spring
> AFAIK and Cocoon to OSGi), so IMHO it would be good to clarify here
> and say "Fulcrum is a repository of Turbine related components based
> on Avalon/Excalibur technology". We should make this clear in the TLP
> proposal because the board will surely ask about it.
I see no need to rush after <enter name of component technology of the
year here>. Avalon has its advantages. The whole Excalibur stuff has
just been updated. However I agree that probably more Turbine
applications use components from outside than Fulcrum components are
used outside Turbine.
Anybody cares to comment about the assumed usage of Fulcrum components?
> Progress is done by user support and developer needs. If the amount of
> request and patches from the user community is not that high, slow
> progress is ok. Remember this is not a commercial project with release
> dates and deadlines.
This is a question of supply and demand, I guess. Growth generates growth...
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> writes:
>As I see it the following issues are at hand:
>* Decide on a VP and fill in the blank on the proposal. I will gladly
>support anyone else that nominates themselves for this role, but will
>nominate myself in the absence of any other offers.
I think that you would make a good fit, because you are really active
in the project (somethat that I can not say for me) and you are a
member. A VP does not need to be a member (think Henri and Jakarta)
but it causes some awkward things. So I fully support you here. :-)
This is not a lifetime post anyway, e.g. Brian (McCallister) offered
the DB chair after one year to allow another PMC member to rotate in.
>-- Possibility of developing into an Umbrella project. We are not at
>present considering bringing anything else into the Turbine fold. The
>strongest argument in this area would be the Fulcrum could spiral out of
>control. The fact of the matter is that while the Fulcrum components
>target any implementation of the Avalon framework, for all intents and
>purposes they exist primarily to support Turbine so as to enable updates
>to the components to be decoupled from Turbine itself. While there may
>be exceptions to this (Siegfried?) they are not so widely used that
>there is any risk of this getting out of control.
IMHO the whole Fulcrum issue gets more and more moot. Avalon has
obviously failed, Excalibur is intentionally kept at a very low
profile and just lost two of its biggest supporters (James to Spring
AFAIK and Cocoon to OSGi), so IMHO it would be good to clarify here
and say "Fulcrum is a repository of Turbine related components based
on Avalon/Excalibur technology". We should make this clear in the TLP
proposal because the board will surely ask about it.
>-- Future plans. While we do occasionally discuss this, we should take
>advantage of the Wiki to document this a little better. Again, the
+1
>reality is that with limited time available we are progressing only
>slowly towards our next Turbine release. I do not however feel that
>this is a problem - progress is being made and fixes are being
>backported to the 2.3 branch as necessary.
Progress is done by user support and developer needs. If the amount of
request and patches from the user community is not that high, slow
progress is ok. Remember this is not a commercial project with release
dates and deadlines.
>So let's quickly resolve the VP question, we will then be in a position
>to ping the general@jakarta list informing them of our plan (this should
>hopefully pull in a few more votes and possibly PMC members) and to kick
>off a formal vote.
The Jakarta PMC does not need to be that much involved and it does not
need to vote on it IMHO. It is obvious courtesy to keep them in the
loop about the TLP plans, but in the end, there is a resolution to the
board about establishing the Apache Turbine TLP. What we should
discuss with the PMC is, which committers that go to Turbine want to
keep their PMC seats / commit rights on Jakarta. I think all Velocity
people kept this (once you have a permission, never give it back. ;-) )
Best regards
Henning
--
Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE, Linux, |gls
91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache person |eau
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine guy |rwc
|m k
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB 7350 |a s
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
"Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>.
Scott Eade wrote:
> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> together.
Okay, so I think it would be fair to say that the discussion has all
been pretty positive, and on the basis of this I have gone ahead and
drafted a TLP proposal.
I used the Velocity TLP proposal as a template for this and I expect we
will follow their lead for the rest of this process (thanks to Henning,
Will and the Velocity crowd for their breadcrumbs).
As I see it the following issues are at hand:
* Decide on a VP and fill in the blank on the proposal. I will gladly
support anyone else that nominates themselves for this role, but will
nominate myself in the absence of any other offers.
* Reading the Velocity TLP mail archive there was discussion concerning:
-- Dormancy. This was dismissed fairly quickly, but similar arguments
could be applied to Turbine. At the end of the day we have a bunch of
committers (including members) that are interested in seeing patches
applied and continued incremental progress on Turbine and it's related
Fulcrum components.
-- Possibility of developing into an Umbrella project. We are not at
present considering bringing anything else into the Turbine fold. The
strongest argument in this area would be the Fulcrum could spiral out of
control. The fact of the matter is that while the Fulcrum components
target any implementation of the Avalon framework, for all intents and
purposes they exist primarily to support Turbine so as to enable updates
to the components to be decoupled from Turbine itself. While there may
be exceptions to this (Siegfried?) they are not so widely used that
there is any risk of this getting out of control.
-- Future plans. While we do occasionally discuss this, we should take
advantage of the Wiki to document this a little better. Again, the
reality is that with limited time available we are progressing only
slowly towards our next Turbine release. I do not however feel that
this is a problem - progress is being made and fixes are being
backported to the 2.3 branch as necessary.
Hopefully the above comments should head off any objections to our
moving forward, but different interpretations, discussion and new points
are certainly welcome.
So let's quickly resolve the VP question, we will then be in a position
to ping the general@jakarta list informing them of our plan (this should
hopefully pull in a few more votes and possibly PMC members) and to kick
off a formal vote.
Scott
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.at>.
Hi Scott,
+) you can count on me
+) but I'm much more involved into Fulcrum than Turbine
+) I will see some of you at ApacheCon 2007 in Amsterdam ... :-)
Cheers,
Siegfried Goeschl
Scott Eade wrote:
> There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of
> sub-projects and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of
> activity/inactivity and whether or not the existing PMC is able to
> perform its obligations with respect to oversight.
>
> While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
> people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable
> us to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP)
> consisting of Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
>
> What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
> available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
> (PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in
> terms of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the
> goals and meets the requirements of the foundation.
>
> What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would
> you be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
>
> Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> together.
>
> Scott
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
First of all : thanks for the clarification of what is needed. People tend to be scared about being
a TLP project, taking Jakarta as an example (which is not the norm / normal :)
Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> writes:
>
>
> Especially this means that a project like Turbine can no longer hide
> below the (pretty large and somewhat paralyzed) Jakarta PMC. On our
> own, we report directly to the board and one of the board members will
> watch the progress of the project closer (currently mainly the Jakarta
> chair and a few interested PMC members are watching. Hello Martin!).
Yeah always watching and will continue watching even if you go TLP.
>
> What is needed to form a PMC is a number of people willing to provide
> oversight. A few of them should be ASF members but not all need
> to. Not all need to be active Turbine committers; some familiarity
> with the code is appreciated but not required. All PMC members must be
> committers, though. Oversight is more important. The PMC is a
> legal/organisatorial thing, not a code controlling tool.
>
> Off my head, I can think of
> * seade
> * sgoeschl
> * tv
> * hoffmann
> * wglass,
> * henning
> * brekke
List looks good..
> I'm very +1 on leaving Jakarta before the ship sinks. With the current
> commons TLP proposal, the holes became bigger.
We have not sunk yet, although I think it will be good for Turbine to go TLP, at least from an
oversight and decision making point of view (Turbine can this way set it's own future, instead of
following Jakarta's directions, if any)
>
> I know that Juergen and Thomas will be at ApacheCon EU; we can team up
> there and maybe set up an IRC channel for further discussion and
> collaboration on getting the TLP off the ground. Will and I surely can
> provide guidance as we already went through the process once with
> Velocity. So let's do it.
Let's indeed meet-up and maybe even better, make discussing this also part of the Jakarta BOF (good
idea about the IRC Channel!). We can also do a dinner BOF (at least dependning on the attendees, I
was thinking about that :) (ehh not offering to pay for all the dinners here!)
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
me scribbled:
>Off my head, I can think of
> * seade
> * sgoeschl
> * tv
> * hoffmann
> * wglass,
> * henning
> * brekke
* pcourcoux
The more, the merrier. :-)
Best regards
Henning
--
Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE, Linux, |gls
91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache person |eau
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine guy |rwc
|m k
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB 7350 |a s
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
"Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
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Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@gmail.com>.
Just a couple quick thoughts on TLP process/effort, having recently been
through this.
The biggest part of Velocity going TLP, I thought, was creating the TLP web
site. (in Velocity this was heroically done almost entirely by Henning).
That's going to be less of an issue for Turbine, since you already have a
multiproject Maven-based site. (plus, you can crib from ours). The second
effort was making a list of infrastructure to-do's (svn, mailing list,
etc). and seeing they got done.
All of this happens at Turbine's leisure in the month or two after the Board
approves TLP. You want to make sure users keep going to the old site in the
meanwhile.
Organizationally, there was the TLP proposal (as Henning mentioned), and
reports to the Board for the first 4 months. Not as big a deal, I think.
Most everything else in the project will continue as it always has.
WILL
On 4/17/07, Henning P. Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
>
> Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> writes:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm a bit late to the show but I hope that I have caught up with the
> various messages sent here.
>
> [ For those of you who do not follow the Velocity lists: I helped
> moving Velocity out of Jakarta and into TLP status and was the last
> one on the tree when it came to calling for a PMC chair, so I am
> currently serving in that function. ]
>
> First things first: No worries! Becoming a TLP is an easy thing, as
> long as there are enough developers devoted to keeping the project
> running. That is the most important thing. The TLP normally puts next
> to no overhead onto the project, except that once per quarter, a board
> report has to be written and sent to the ASF board. Normally this
> report can be prepared on the Wiki and is no big deal.
>
> Becoming a TLP means that the project forms its own Project Management
> committee (PMC). This means a few things legal-wise, because the PMC
> and the PMC chair are actually responsible for all software released
> by the project. There is a longer explanation about the
> responsibilities of the PMC at
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
>
> Especially this means that a project like Turbine can no longer hide
> below the (pretty large and somewhat paralyzed) Jakarta PMC. On our
> own, we report directly to the board and one of the board members will
> watch the progress of the project closer (currently mainly the Jakarta
> chair and a few interested PMC members are watching. Hello Martin!).
>
> What is needed to form a PMC is a number of people willing to provide
> oversight. A few of them should be ASF members but not all need
> to. Not all need to be active Turbine committers; some familiarity
> with the code is appreciated but not required. All PMC members must be
> committers, though. Oversight is more important. The PMC is a
> legal/organisatorial thing, not a code controlling tool.
>
> Off my head, I can think of
> * seade
> * sgoeschl
> * tv
> * hoffmann
> * wglass,
> * henning
> * brekke
>
> which are four active and three somewhat 'alumni' committers. This is
> more than Velocity had at inception and it should work fine. Will,
> Scott and I are members, so that should be no problem, too. (Actively
> serving on a PMC also is a step towards membership BTW, see
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles :-) )
>
> (Yes, that means that I would be willing to serve on the PMC for
> oversight. However, my current day job does not allow me to
> participate in more than one project as a developer, so my programming
> time is currently geared towards Velocity. Sorry 'bout that).
>
> Next thing would be to steal^Wcreate a TLP proposal. There are a
> number of proposal examples in the board minutes. Adapting one to
> Turbine is not a hard thing. The proposal should contain a list of
> people serving on the PMC and a PMC chair. I would like to propose
> Scott for PMC chair, BTW (he is the intersection between the committer
> and members, which makes him the logical candidate).
>
> Once the proposal passes the board, there is at first some
> infrastructure work to do: Moving the web site, changing links and
> mailing list addresses etc. (to get some idea, look at
> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/VELOCITY-470).
>
> This mainly needs constant prodding of infra to get things done. Not a
> hard thing, but it is important to be persistent. Also, in the first
> three months, montly reports are expected by the board, so this is the
> time where the new PMC shows that it works.
>
> >Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> >together.
>
> I'm very +1 on leaving Jakarta before the ship sinks. With the current
> commons TLP proposal, the holes became bigger.
>
> I know that Juergen and Thomas will be at ApacheCon EU; we can team up
> there and maybe set up an IRC channel for further discussion and
> collaboration on getting the TLP off the ground. Will and I surely can
> provide guidance as we already went through the process once with
> Velocity. So let's do it.
>
> Best regards
> Henning
>
>
> --
> Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE,
> Linux, |gls
> 91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache
> person |eau
> Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine
> guy |rwc
> |m
> k
> INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB
> 7350 |a s
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning
> Schmiedehausen |n
>
> "Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
>
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>
>
--
Forio Business Simulations
Will Glass-Husain
wglass@forio.com
www.forio.com
Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> writes:
Hi,
I'm a bit late to the show but I hope that I have caught up with the
various messages sent here.
[ For those of you who do not follow the Velocity lists: I helped
moving Velocity out of Jakarta and into TLP status and was the last
one on the tree when it came to calling for a PMC chair, so I am
currently serving in that function. ]
First things first: No worries! Becoming a TLP is an easy thing, as
long as there are enough developers devoted to keeping the project
running. That is the most important thing. The TLP normally puts next
to no overhead onto the project, except that once per quarter, a board
report has to be written and sent to the ASF board. Normally this
report can be prepared on the Wiki and is no big deal.
Becoming a TLP means that the project forms its own Project Management
committee (PMC). This means a few things legal-wise, because the PMC
and the PMC chair are actually responsible for all software released
by the project. There is a longer explanation about the
responsibilities of the PMC at
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
Especially this means that a project like Turbine can no longer hide
below the (pretty large and somewhat paralyzed) Jakarta PMC. On our
own, we report directly to the board and one of the board members will
watch the progress of the project closer (currently mainly the Jakarta
chair and a few interested PMC members are watching. Hello Martin!).
What is needed to form a PMC is a number of people willing to provide
oversight. A few of them should be ASF members but not all need
to. Not all need to be active Turbine committers; some familiarity
with the code is appreciated but not required. All PMC members must be
committers, though. Oversight is more important. The PMC is a
legal/organisatorial thing, not a code controlling tool.
Off my head, I can think of
* seade
* sgoeschl
* tv
* hoffmann
* wglass,
* henning
* brekke
which are four active and three somewhat 'alumni' committers. This is
more than Velocity had at inception and it should work fine. Will,
Scott and I are members, so that should be no problem, too. (Actively
serving on a PMC also is a step towards membership BTW, see
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles :-) )
(Yes, that means that I would be willing to serve on the PMC for
oversight. However, my current day job does not allow me to
participate in more than one project as a developer, so my programming
time is currently geared towards Velocity. Sorry 'bout that).
Next thing would be to steal^Wcreate a TLP proposal. There are a
number of proposal examples in the board minutes. Adapting one to
Turbine is not a hard thing. The proposal should contain a list of
people serving on the PMC and a PMC chair. I would like to propose
Scott for PMC chair, BTW (he is the intersection between the committer
and members, which makes him the logical candidate).
Once the proposal passes the board, there is at first some
infrastructure work to do: Moving the web site, changing links and
mailing list addresses etc. (to get some idea, look at
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/VELOCITY-470).
This mainly needs constant prodding of infra to get things done. Not a
hard thing, but it is important to be persistent. Also, in the first
three months, montly reports are expected by the board, so this is the
time where the new PMC shows that it works.
>Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
>together.
I'm very +1 on leaving Jakarta before the ship sinks. With the current
commons TLP proposal, the holes became bigger.
I know that Juergen and Thomas will be at ApacheCon EU; we can team up
there and maybe set up an IRC channel for further discussion and
collaboration on getting the TLP off the ground. Will and I surely can
provide guidance as we already went through the process once with
Velocity. So let's do it.
Best regards
Henning
--
Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE, Linux, |gls
91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache person |eau
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine guy |rwc
|m k
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB 7350 |a s
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
"Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
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Re: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <th...@tewisoft.de>.
Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Skype, skype, that is something like "phone", isn't it? :-)
The headset would probably do no harm, but you can also type...
Search for my name in Skype and we can practice a little bit. :-)
In turn, I would need some basic hints about IRC. Never used that before.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Hoffmann?= <jh...@byteaction.de> writes:
>> Once the proposal passes the board, there is at first some
>> infrastructure work to do: Moving the web site, changing links and
>> mailing list addresses etc. (to get some idea, look at
>> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/VELOCITY-470).
>There seem to be some sysop tasks to do that I can handle. We have solaris 10
>Installations and qmail/ezmlm as well. Only thing I would need help on is svn
>mgmt. I would just need somebody I can turn to, once I have questions.
Most of this work is done by infra/Joe, it is more a "please do this
now" <wait> "has that already been done" <wait> "could that please be
done" <wait> "thanks for doing" process.
Getting a zone for turbine is possible, once it is TLP, but mailing
lists, svn etc will be handled by infra.
[...]
>After a little Skype Chat with Scott, I understand the intention behind this
>move a lot better, and I am now +1 in doing so instead of +0.
>> I know that Juergen and Thomas will be at ApacheCon EU; we can team up
>> there and maybe set up an IRC channel for further discussion and
>> collaboration on getting the TLP off the ground. Will and I surely can
>> provide guidance as we already went through the process once with
>> Velocity. So let's do it.
>I don't know how long I will be at the apachecon, but we can definitely team
>up, and talk about things.
>Since Thomas is also on skype, Maybe we can have a little chat there too.
Skype, skype, that is something like "phone", isn't it? :-)
I do have a headset, it is somewhere around here. Let's see if I can
find that. :-)
Best regards
Henning
--
Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- hps@intermeta.de | J2EE, Linux, |gls
91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache person |eau
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design | Velocity - Turbine guy |rwc
|m k
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH - RG Fuerth, HRB 7350 |a s
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Buckenhof. Geschaeftsfuehrer: Henning Schmiedehausen |n
"Save the cheerleader. Save the world."
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Re: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>.
Jürgen Hoffmann wrote:
> Since Thomas is also on skype, Maybe we can have a little chat there too.
>
Or on irc://irc.freenode.net/turbine to allow others to participate.
Scott
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AW: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Jürgen Hoffmann <jh...@byteaction.de>.
Hi Scott,
Is that channel still alive???
I will check it right out :)
Kind regards
Juergen
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Scott Eade [mailto:seade@backstagetech.com.au]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. April 2007 08:10
> An: Turbine Developers List
> Betreff: Re: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
>
> Jürgen Hoffmann wrote:
> > Since Thomas is also on skype, Maybe we can have a little chat there
> too.
> >
> Or on irc://irc.freenode.net/turbine to allow others to participate.
>
> Scott
>
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AW: AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Juergen Hoffmann <ho...@apache.org>.
Hi Henning,
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Henning P. Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
>
> Most of this work is done by infra/Joe, it is more a "please do this
> now" <wait> "has that already been done" <wait> "could that please be
> done" <wait> "thanks for doing" process.
Ahh I see :-)
> >Since Thomas is also on skype, Maybe we can have a little chat there
> too.
>
> Skype, skype, that is something like "phone", isn't it? :-)
>
> I do have a headset, it is somewhere around here. Let's see if I can
> find that. :-)
Well with skype, we can also do a little chatting ;)
Kind regards
Juergen
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AW: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Jürgen Hoffmann <jh...@byteaction.de>.
Hi all,
I am +1 in moving to TLP. More see below...
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Henning P. Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. April 2007 22:30
> An: turbine-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] TLP?
>
> Next thing would be to steal^Wcreate a TLP proposal. There are a
> number of proposal examples in the board minutes. Adapting one to
> Turbine is not a hard thing. The proposal should contain a list of
> people serving on the PMC and a PMC chair. I would like to propose
> Scott for PMC chair, BTW (he is the intersection between the committer
> and members, which makes him the logical candidate).
+1 for Scott
> Once the proposal passes the board, there is at first some
> infrastructure work to do: Moving the web site, changing links and
> mailing list addresses etc. (to get some idea, look at
> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/VELOCITY-470).
There seem to be some sysop tasks to do that I can handle. We have solaris 10
Installations and qmail/ezmlm as well. Only thing I would need help on is svn
mgmt. I would just need somebody I can turn to, once I have questions.
> This mainly needs constant prodding of infra to get things done. Not a
> hard thing, but it is important to be persistent. Also, in the first
> three months, montly reports are expected by the board, so this is the
> time where the new PMC shows that it works.
If the reports do not have tob e too long, and time consuming, I am willing to
do this.
> >Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
> >together.
>
> I'm very +1 on leaving Jakarta before the ship sinks. With the current
> commons TLP proposal, the holes became bigger.
After a little Skype Chat with Scott, I understand the intention behind this
move a lot better, and I am now +1 in doing so instead of +0.
> I know that Juergen and Thomas will be at ApacheCon EU; we can team up
> there and maybe set up an IRC channel for further discussion and
> collaboration on getting the TLP off the ground. Will and I surely can
> provide guidance as we already went through the process once with
> Velocity. So let's do it.
I don't know how long I will be at the apachecon, but we can definitely team
up, and talk about things.
Since Thomas is also on skype, Maybe we can have a little chat there too.
Kind regards
Juergen
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SV: SV: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Martin Lidgard <ma...@arkatay.se>.
Hi Scott,
fair enough... better start sending in the last few years of enhancements
that we have collected.
Best regards,
Martin
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Scott Eade [mailto:seade@backstagetech.com.au]
Skickat: den 25 april 2007 02:04
Till: Turbine Developers List
Ämne: Re: SV: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Martin Lidgard | Tibet Server wrote:
> I would be interested in being a part of the PMC. Our CMS uses
> Turbine and our company would be willing to commit to supporting the
> continuing development of Turbine. Please let me know in what way we
> could support the project.
>
Hi Martin,
We are certainly interested in more people becoming involved in maintenance
and future development of Turbine. PMC members are elected from among the
committers - becoming a committer is a reasonably straightforward process of
contributing towards the project by way of fixes and enhancements to code
and documentation. We are always happy to accept these, and the existing
PMC members (currently for Turbine this is the Jakarta PMC) pay attention to
these contributions in order to assess when somebody has demonstrated their
ability to work with the community in a cohesive fashion. When this is the
case the person involved will usually be invited to become a committer and
continued involvement leads to being elected to the PMC. For details see
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
So for now we welcome your moral support, and we look forward to whatever
level of commitment you are able to come through with in the future.
Scott
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Re: SV: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>.
Martin Lidgard | Tibet Server wrote:
> I would be interested in being a part of the PMC. Our CMS uses Turbine and
> our company would be willing to commit to supporting the continuing
> development of Turbine. Please let me know in what way we could support the
> project.
>
Hi Martin,
We are certainly interested in more people becoming involved in
maintenance and future development of Turbine. PMC members are elected
from among the committers - becoming a committer is a reasonably
straightforward process of contributing towards the project by way of
fixes and enhancements to code and documentation. We are always happy
to accept these, and the existing PMC members (currently for Turbine
this is the Jakarta PMC) pay attention to these contributions in order
to assess when somebody has demonstrated their ability to work with the
community in a cohesive fashion. When this is the case the person
involved will usually be invited to become a committer and continued
involvement leads to being elected to the PMC. For details see
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
So for now we welcome your moral support, and we look forward to
whatever level of commitment you are able to come through with in the
future.
Scott
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SV: [DISCUSS] TLP?
Posted by Martin Lidgard | Tibet Server <ma...@tibetserver.se>.
Hi Scott,
I would be interested in being a part of the PMC. Our CMS uses Turbine and
our company would be willing to commit to supporting the continuing
development of Turbine. Please let me know in what way we could support the
project.
Best regards,
Martin
Martin Lidgard
Martin Lidgard
Arkatay Web Solutions AB
Norra Vallgatan 4
SE 223 62
Lund Sweden
Tel: +46 46 540 6000
Cell: +46 73 200 1060
Mail: martin@tibetserver.se
Web: www.tibetserver.se
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Scott Eade [mailto:seade@backstagetech.com.au]
Skickat: den 14 april 2007 01:30
Till: Turbine Developers List
Ämne: [DISCUSS] TLP?
There are once again rumblings in Jakarta about the number of sub-projects
and sub-sub-projects, their varying levels of activity/inactivity and
whether or not the existing PMC is able to perform its obligations with
respect to oversight.
While progress on Turbine may be slow, I believe that there are enough
people that rely on it and want to see it actively maintained to enable us
to put together a proposal to become a top level project (TLP) consisting of
Turbine (including META) and Fulcrum.
What I would like to know is whether or not you would make yourself
available to participate in a new Turbine Project Management Committee
(PMC). The PMC is ultimately responsible to the board of the ASF in terms
of overseeing the project and ensuring that it fits within the goals and
meets the requirements of the foundation.
What do you think? Do you think we have the numbers to go TLP? Would you
be interested in being part of the initial PMC?
Let's discuss this here before I go to the trouble of putting a proposal
together.
Scott
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