You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by "Yu, Ed" <ek...@asg.sc.edu> on 2005/02/24 20:03:23 UTC
Rich client
Hi all,
Just got a message from another list, Laszlo is now open source
(http://www.laszlosystems.com/ <http://www.laszlosystems.com/> ). Ready to
roll up your sleeves to integrate?
Tapestry Palette update
Posted by Michael Henderson <mh...@mac.com>.
Hi,
I have updated the palette plugin to work with Spindle versions
greater than 3.1.15 and Tapestry 3.0.2 the new version 0.0.1 can be
downloaded from within Eclipse from:
http://tapestrypalette.mjhenderson.com/unstable
If you need to download and install locally you can use the same URL in
a web browser to reach a download link (not in Safari on OSX it does
not like the Javascript, try Firefox instead)
I've tested on Linux and WinXP only but drag and drop is working.
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Jonny Wray <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Dynamically generating graphics is not the problem, as I mentioned.
It's having them interactive. eg clicking on a bar in a bar chart
changes the values in a property table.
Good to hear they are working on a drawing api. I'll keep my eye on it.
--- Bernard Sirius <be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> the laszlo developers strive to be as client-agnostic
> as possible, which is great when/if somebody wants to
> port the technology to java/xaml/DHTML/...
>
> However, they *are* working on a drawing api, and it's
> coming soon:
>
> http://www.openlaszlo.org/development/roadmap/
>
> for now, you could dynamically generate your graphics
> using JGenerator, or just about any good png/jpeg
> generating library.
>
> bernard
>
> --- Jonny Wray <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, the Laszlo killer for me was no ability to
> > have interactive data
> > driven graphics. Sure, you can generate a picture of
> > some kind on the
> > server side and pipe it to the client, but there was
> > no way of
> > integrating events into the picture. Defeats one of
> > the biggest reasons
> > why I was thinking of going to a rich client
> > solution. I actually had
> > more ability to do this with tapestry and svg.
> >
> > I brought this up on their forum and I got the
> > feeling from the
> > response that they didn't care. It was suggested I
> > write my own drawing
> > routines from base Laslzo components. Why should I
> > have to write my own
> > vector drawing api when flash already has it (it
> > does, dosen't it?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Bernard Sirius <be...@yahoo.com>.
the laszlo developers strive to be as client-agnostic
as possible, which is great when/if somebody wants to
port the technology to java/xaml/DHTML/...
However, they *are* working on a drawing api, and it's
coming soon:
http://www.openlaszlo.org/development/roadmap/
for now, you could dynamically generate your graphics
using JGenerator, or just about any good png/jpeg
generating library.
bernard
--- Jonny Wray <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, the Laszlo killer for me was no ability to
> have interactive data
> driven graphics. Sure, you can generate a picture of
> some kind on the
> server side and pipe it to the client, but there was
> no way of
> integrating events into the picture. Defeats one of
> the biggest reasons
> why I was thinking of going to a rich client
> solution. I actually had
> more ability to do this with tapestry and svg.
>
> I brought this up on their forum and I got the
> feeling from the
> response that they didn't care. It was suggested I
> write my own drawing
> routines from base Laslzo components. Why should I
> have to write my own
> vector drawing api when flash already has it (it
> does, dosen't it?).
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Jonny Wray <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Well, the Laszlo killer for me was no ability to have interactive data
driven graphics. Sure, you can generate a picture of some kind on the
server side and pipe it to the client, but there was no way of
integrating events into the picture. Defeats one of the biggest reasons
why I was thinking of going to a rich client solution. I actually had
more ability to do this with tapestry and svg.
I brought this up on their forum and I got the feeling from the
response that they didn't care. It was suggested I write my own drawing
routines from base Laslzo components. Why should I have to write my own
vector drawing api when flash already has it (it does, dosen't it?).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Laszlo - things to consider
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
>>Maybe, but this is not laszlo's fault... try opening as many JVM's... and... laszo is not flash.
Laszlo is flash on client as far as I am concerned.
Of course that is not Laszlo fault, but all applets run within one JVM.
>> Your typical laszlo app will be between 1 and 2 megs uncompressed;
No, my application simply cannot be all flash. I need active COMPONENTS
because majority of the staff can and should be handled by
browser/html/dummy-flash etc.
In the instant we have possibility of multiple downloads of the same
flash movie as we navigate between pages back and forth.
Bernard Sirius wrote:
>--- Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>- I am too stupid perhaps. Could not get done
>>dynamically expandable
>>tree ( node retrieves children on demand );
>>
>>
>
>challenging laszlo on such a simplistic problem is
>unfair. their demos speak for themselves.
>
>
>
>>- Laszlo Flash components are so big ( megabytes );
>>
>>
>
>Your typical laszlo app will be between 1 and 2 megs
>uncompressed; with deflate on, divide this by 4.
>My ADSL line gives me 350Kb/sec, at least. We're
>talking 1 to 3 seconds download time, here.
>And if there's one thing for sure: bandwidth will
>continue to grow.
>
>
>
>>- unclear caching schema if any;
>>- Unclear security model;
>>
>>
>
>http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps-2.2/docs/guide/architecture.html
>
>
>
>>- huge demand for server side resources, tried to
>>have dedicated Laszlo
>>compilation server and just let components talk to
>>'client' servers but
>>could not get it done;
>>
>>
>
>Agreed. However, the version 3 of LPS will feature
>serverless deployment.
>
>
>
>>- development cycle is not that convenient IMO;
>>- having multiple documents with flashes open in
>>multiple windows and
>>they brought my 3.3G/1GB laptop to the knees (
>>server worked on Linux
>>box) - probably one FVM( Flash Virtual Machine) per
>>component is too much;
>>
>>
>
>Maybe, but this is not laszlo's fault... try opening
>as many JVM's... and... laszo is not flash.
>
>
>
>>Share your frustration, but IMO Applets would work
>>much better for
>>everybody with a little work from Sun:
>>- have shared standard repository of libraries to
>>prevent every applet
>>to download own log4j, jakarta-commons etc.;
>>- real integration with Java Web Start for
>>predictable and precise caching;
>>- chunked JVM autoinstall; Installation could be no
>>harder than FlashPlayer;
>>
>>
>
>maybe, maybe, maybe. but flash is here now,
>everybody's got it on their browser, and they don't
>even know it.
>
>And before I continue, let me emphasize that *laszlo
>is not flash*. This debate is important for now,
>that's for sure, but laszlo plans to integrate with
>all kinds of technology, not the least interesting
>being, simply... DHTML. But they're evaluating the JVM
>too. A very natural target for them being of course
>XAML/avalon.
>
>
>
>>- somehow I do not trust Macromedia to create high
>>quality FVM for
>>client side, even they would be able to do it, I bet
>>it will be pretty
>>the same as JVM, why reinvent?.
>>
>>
>
>no no it's not the same thing. flash is not a virtual
>machine, it's a runtime, and a very effective piece of
>software, albeit not perfect. It's much easier to
>focus on a scripting runtime with an efficient
>graphics engine, than to write a JVM, IMHO.
>
>hey I don't want to be controversial or make anyone
>nervous here. I just want to stress the elements that
>IMO will make RIA *in general* thrive:
>
>- rich graphic possibilities: flash
>- ubiquity: floash
>- ease of development: no (visible) compilation step;
>scripting and xml everywhere
>
>I don't think that java is inherently inadequate for
>RIA development. Only laszlo+flash is a winning
>combination right now. And java is still a no-match on
>the server side.
>
>bernard
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
>http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Bernard Sirius <be...@yahoo.com>.
--- Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> - I am too stupid perhaps. Could not get done
> dynamically expandable
> tree ( node retrieves children on demand );
challenging laszlo on such a simplistic problem is
unfair. their demos speak for themselves.
> - Laszlo Flash components are so big ( megabytes );
Your typical laszlo app will be between 1 and 2 megs
uncompressed; with deflate on, divide this by 4.
My ADSL line gives me 350Kb/sec, at least. We're
talking 1 to 3 seconds download time, here.
And if there's one thing for sure: bandwidth will
continue to grow.
> - unclear caching schema if any;
> - Unclear security model;
http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps-2.2/docs/guide/architecture.html
> - huge demand for server side resources, tried to
> have dedicated Laszlo
> compilation server and just let components talk to
> 'client' servers but
> could not get it done;
Agreed. However, the version 3 of LPS will feature
serverless deployment.
> - development cycle is not that convenient IMO;
> - having multiple documents with flashes open in
> multiple windows and
> they brought my 3.3G/1GB laptop to the knees (
> server worked on Linux
> box) - probably one FVM( Flash Virtual Machine) per
> component is too much;
Maybe, but this is not laszlo's fault... try opening
as many JVM's... and... laszo is not flash.
> Share your frustration, but IMO Applets would work
> much better for
> everybody with a little work from Sun:
> - have shared standard repository of libraries to
> prevent every applet
> to download own log4j, jakarta-commons etc.;
> - real integration with Java Web Start for
> predictable and precise caching;
> - chunked JVM autoinstall; Installation could be no
> harder than FlashPlayer;
maybe, maybe, maybe. but flash is here now,
everybody's got it on their browser, and they don't
even know it.
And before I continue, let me emphasize that *laszlo
is not flash*. This debate is important for now,
that's for sure, but laszlo plans to integrate with
all kinds of technology, not the least interesting
being, simply... DHTML. But they're evaluating the JVM
too. A very natural target for them being of course
XAML/avalon.
> - somehow I do not trust Macromedia to create high
> quality FVM for
> client side, even they would be able to do it, I bet
> it will be pretty
> the same as JVM, why reinvent?.
no no it's not the same thing. flash is not a virtual
machine, it's a runtime, and a very effective piece of
software, albeit not perfect. It's much easier to
focus on a scripting runtime with an efficient
graphics engine, than to write a JVM, IMHO.
hey I don't want to be controversial or make anyone
nervous here. I just want to stress the elements that
IMO will make RIA *in general* thrive:
- rich graphic possibilities: flash
- ubiquity: floash
- ease of development: no (visible) compilation step;
scripting and xml everywhere
I don't think that java is inherently inadequate for
RIA development. Only laszlo+flash is a winning
combination right now. And java is still a no-match on
the server side.
bernard
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
Bernard Sirius wrote:
>come on, I can't believe it. they have a 10 minutes
>tutorial that teaches the basics, and from there, the
>learning curve is exponential.
>
- I am too stupid perhaps. Could not get done dynamically expandable
tree ( node retrieves children on demand );
- Laszlo Flash components are so big ( megabytes );
- unclear caching schema if any;
- Unclear security model;
- huge demand for server side resources, tried to have dedicated Laszlo
compilation server and just let components talk to 'client' servers but
could not get it done;
- development cycle is not that convenient IMO;
- having multiple documents with flashes open in multiple windows and
they brought my 3.3G/1GB laptop to the knees ( server worked on Linux
box) - probably one FVM( Flash Virtual Machine) per component is too much;
>And, what's more, it
>works! I mean, it's one of the rare occasions in my 8
>years' programmer's experience where the technology
>really works (IMO, as a rule of thumb, it simply
>doesn't)!
>
>and besides, this is entirely different: laszlo is
>about letting *everyone* access your application:
>Applet? Give me a break. Everytime an applet launches
>in my browser I want to throw my laptop through the
>window.
>
>
Share your frustration, but IMO Applets would work much better for
everybody with a little work from Sun:
- have shared standard repository of libraries to prevent every applet
to download own log4j, jakarta-commons etc.;
- real integration with Java Web Start for predictable and precise caching;
- chunked JVM autoinstall; Installation could be no harder than FlashPlayer;
- somehow I do not trust Macromedia to create high quality FVM for
client side, even they would be able to do it, I bet it will be pretty
the same as JVM, why reinvent?.
>It's about what they call "continuous user experience"
>which is taking advantage of the rich graphic
>capabilities of the flash player to smoothly help the
>user focus on the changes in you UI (the exact
>opposite of page refreshes).
>
>It's about letting designers exert their stunning art
>in new, innovative ways.It's about integrating video, mp3,...
>
>OK not everyone of us has the chance to work with such
>freedom, but it's great to know it's there.
>
>bernard
>
>--- Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I was initially impressed by Laszlo and spent about
>>a week trying to
>>master it, but I gave up. It looks great, but it is
>>too darn difficult
>>to deal with it IMO.
>>Applet [SwixML] connected with Hessian and with
>>applied Aqua LnF is much
>>much easier to develop and work with IMO.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Bernard Sirius <be...@yahoo.com>.
come on, I can't believe it. they have a 10 minutes
tutorial that teaches the basics, and from there, the
learning curve is exponential. And, what's more, it
works! I mean, it's one of the rare occasions in my 8
years' programmer's experience where the technology
really works (IMO, as a rule of thumb, it simply
doesn't)!
and besides, this is entirely different: laszlo is
about letting *everyone* access your application:
Applet? Give me a break. Everytime an applet launches
in my browser I want to throw my laptop through the
window.
It's about what they call "continuous user experience"
which is taking advantage of the rich graphic
capabilities of the flash player to smoothly help the
user focus on the changes in you UI (the exact
opposite of page refreshes).
It's about letting designers exert their stunning art
in new, innovative ways.
It's about integrating video, mp3,...
OK not everyone of us has the chance to work with such
freedom, but it's great to know it's there.
bernard
--- Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was initially impressed by Laszlo and spent about
> a week trying to
> master it, but I gave up. It looks great, but it is
> too darn difficult
> to deal with it IMO.
> Applet [SwixML] connected with Hessian and with
> applied Aqua LnF is much
> much easier to develop and work with IMO.
>
>
> Bernard Sirius wrote:
>
> >hey, it's been a while now! I'm into it since it is
> >(open-source) - see my previous posts about
> tapestry
> >and XML.
> >
> >IMO, Tapestry is a great match for laszlo, and I'd
> be
> >delighted to share thoughts about combining the two
> >technologies. Laszlo is great, really and it's
> amazing
> >to benefit such a professional work for free (e.g.
> the
> >documentation is near-perfect).
> >
> >I'd like to know what you really mean by
> "integrate"
> >though.
> >
> >bernard
> >
> >--- "Yu, Ed" <ek...@asg.sc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi all,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Just got a message from another list, Laszlo is
> now
> >>open source
> >>(http://www.laszlosystems.com/
> >><http://www.laszlosystems.com/> ). Ready to
> >>roll up your sleeves to integrate?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans
> will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the
> atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical
> rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert,
> eliminate between forty to one hundred species,
> erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700
> tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their
> population by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
> Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for
> Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
> New York: State University of New York Press, 1997:
> (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
I was initially impressed by Laszlo and spent about a week trying to
master it, but I gave up. It looks great, but it is too darn difficult
to deal with it IMO.
Applet [SwixML] connected with Hessian and with applied Aqua LnF is much
much easier to develop and work with IMO.
Bernard Sirius wrote:
>hey, it's been a while now! I'm into it since it is
>(open-source) - see my previous posts about tapestry
>and XML.
>
>IMO, Tapestry is a great match for laszlo, and I'd be
>delighted to share thoughts about combining the two
>technologies. Laszlo is great, really and it's amazing
>to benefit such a professional work for free (e.g. the
>documentation is near-perfect).
>
>I'd like to know what you really mean by "integrate"
>though.
>
>bernard
>
>--- "Yu, Ed" <ek...@asg.sc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>>Just got a message from another list, Laszlo is now
>>open source
>>(http://www.laszlosystems.com/
>><http://www.laszlosystems.com/> ). Ready to
>>roll up your sleeves to integrate?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Rich client
Posted by Bernard Sirius <be...@yahoo.com>.
hey, it's been a while now! I'm into it since it is
(open-source) - see my previous posts about tapestry
and XML.
IMO, Tapestry is a great match for laszlo, and I'd be
delighted to share thoughts about combining the two
technologies. Laszlo is great, really and it's amazing
to benefit such a professional work for free (e.g. the
documentation is near-perfect).
I'd like to know what you really mean by "integrate"
though.
bernard
--- "Yu, Ed" <ek...@asg.sc.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Just got a message from another list, Laszlo is now
> open source
> (http://www.laszlosystems.com/
> <http://www.laszlosystems.com/> ). Ready to
> roll up your sleeves to integrate?
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org