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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> on 2008/06/20 13:43:00 UTC
[OT] What slows you down?
Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
concerns and have been gathering many followers.
But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
"nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
intractable problems with web development itself?
Thoughts? :)
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Don Brown <do...@gmail.com>.
This is an excellent question, Ted, thanks for bringing it up. At
Atlassian, we've been rolling out a few new internal applications
built on Grails and have been amazed how easy it can be. They take
production-ready libraries like Hibernate and Spring, then tie
everything together in a seamless way through the Grails layer and a
set of conventions. In particular, their tags are well-done, which is
a big productivity boon.
One of my main problems with Java development is the fact there are
just so many layers. To write a simple feature, you have to mess with
all sorts of languages, formats, conventions, and libraries. I'm
amused at this current "polygot programming" movement, as the Java
community has been writing apps in multiple languages from the
beginning. Just look at the number of languages and formats a
developer should know to write a Struts app:
* Java
* JSP
* JSTL
* XML (and its many schemas)
* HTML
* Javascript
* OGNL
* FreeMarker (to customize tags)
* Velocity (optional)
* and then all the libraries and their own little expression
languages and API's
Grails does a good job tying it together and dusting a nice layer of
Groovy on top of it all so yes, you can dig into those layers if you
want, but you don't have to. I'm not sure how exactly we'd bring that
to Struts, but I certainly see the need for better improving the
developer experience, because after all, that was the original purpose
of the Struts 2 project.
Don
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
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RE: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Nick Scavelli <ni...@hotmail.com>.
Musachy abused the first rule, dont' feed the trolls... :)
> Subject: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:27:10 +0200
> From: Frode.Johansen@ist.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
>
> As I said:
> I'm not that a great coder, and not an expert php or java coder.
> Coding pure logic in java or php goes at a nice pace.
>
> Once you are in the loop where you got a variable, object, list/map/tree
> of stuffs - and need that converted to something html'ish ... then for
> me php is far easier to do that with. Struts2 is not. And I have max 2y
> on-and-off hobby experience with php.
> Zend isn't silver bullet AS I SAID, but it's definitely easier. Notice
> how random coders jumps on it wagon... how many kids jumps on struts??
> More or less none...
>
> Are we talking about being productive? Make stuff fast? Time to deliver?
> Or are we talking about something else?
>
> Let me Quote:
> " Some frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to
> market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers."
> BECAUSE ITS EASY TO GET STUFF DONE. DON'T NEED TO BE GEEKISH or 3y+
> EXPERIENCE. You even don't need college... sad really.
>
> I just stated that struts2 are not making me productive. Notice how
> often I say it's difficult to find and fix problems related to X.
>
> PHP + notepad++ - no debuggers or ide. No particular tools. But I get
> stuff done... even I'm amazed, cause look at php as a language or zend
> as framework - certainly not pretty.
>
> I just made a huge rant on java and struts not being productive for me.
> If you get exception error because of 3 words - that's your problem.
> Someone asked me what slowed me down - I answered. Maybe my answers is
> just noob errors or whatever, I don't care. I just don't think or feel
> I'm productive. Others here favour JSF... I don't see ppl being
> productive with that either. Sure it got some nice stuff I want to try,
> but that's pretty much it.
>
> Maybe in 5y I'm doing magic and got total different problems, but that's
> then. Not now.
>
> Mvh
> Frode T. Johansen
>
> > -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> > Fra: Musachy Barroso [mailto:musachy@gmail.com]
> > Sendt: 20. juni 2008 17:14
> > Til: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Emne: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
> >
> > I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is
> > friday after all, but here:
> >
> > "Look to php zend framework"
> >
> > that was it for me, lol.
> >
> > musachy
> >
> > Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased
> >
>
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SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Frode T. Johansen" <Fr...@ist.com>.
As I said:
I'm not that a great coder, and not an expert php or java coder.
Coding pure logic in java or php goes at a nice pace.
Once you are in the loop where you got a variable, object, list/map/tree
of stuffs - and need that converted to something html'ish ... then for
me php is far easier to do that with. Struts2 is not. And I have max 2y
on-and-off hobby experience with php.
Zend isn't silver bullet AS I SAID, but it's definitely easier. Notice
how random coders jumps on it wagon... how many kids jumps on struts??
More or less none...
Are we talking about being productive? Make stuff fast? Time to deliver?
Or are we talking about something else?
Let me Quote:
" Some frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to
market"
concerns and have been gathering many followers."
BECAUSE ITS EASY TO GET STUFF DONE. DON'T NEED TO BE GEEKISH or 3y+
EXPERIENCE. You even don't need college... sad really.
I just stated that struts2 are not making me productive. Notice how
often I say it's difficult to find and fix problems related to X.
PHP + notepad++ - no debuggers or ide. No particular tools. But I get
stuff done... even I'm amazed, cause look at php as a language or zend
as framework - certainly not pretty.
I just made a huge rant on java and struts not being productive for me.
If you get exception error because of 3 words - that's your problem.
Someone asked me what slowed me down - I answered. Maybe my answers is
just noob errors or whatever, I don't care. I just don't think or feel
I'm productive. Others here favour JSF... I don't see ppl being
productive with that either. Sure it got some nice stuff I want to try,
but that's pretty much it.
Maybe in 5y I'm doing magic and got total different problems, but that's
then. Not now.
Mvh
Frode T. Johansen
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: Musachy Barroso [mailto:musachy@gmail.com]
> Sendt: 20. juni 2008 17:14
> Til: Struts Users Mailing List
> Emne: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is
> friday after all, but here:
>
> "Look to php zend framework"
>
> that was it for me, lol.
>
> musachy
>
> Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased
>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is
friday after all, but here:
"Look to php zend framework"
that was it for me, lol.
musachy
Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Frode T. Johansen
<Fr...@ist.com> wrote:
> - jsp tags
> It was just confusing and time consuming to learn and do alot of c:if/c:forEach/c:choose and make it right. In the beginning I just escaped into java a lot <% %>
>
> -struts tags
> I still hate tags like the s:select mixed with i18n, ognl, converters and the lot.
> 1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 error, 1 type error, and you get NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER what is wrong.
>
> -OGNL
> %{}, #{}, ${} ... ????? what eh ... uh. Still don't understand the difference and alot of the complex syntax I find all over the place.
> 1 word - crap
> Another word - total undebuggable
>
> Why on earth do we have to do a lot of logic in jsp files with tags and el?? Gawd I hate that. Then you introduce ognl and struts tags cause el isn't good enough. It's a huge mess. Add sitemesh or whatever....
> Boohoo - the web monkey use dreamweaver and can't code. He needs tags boohoo. But he does javascript and ajax, or pretty soon is out of work if he doesn't.
>
> -XML
> Xml is a nice tool/format/thingy to save data in. If I ever get a hold of the jerk that suggested to create a semi-sub-scripting-language in xml ...
> 1 error, 1 type error, 1 misunderstanding ... you will definitely not get a understandable error message if you get one at all....
>
> I think xml was made with the intention that there should be a nice and easy tool on top you could play with, and that tool should save to xml, and then read from it again... not to hand code the crap with an obscure-hello-world-basic-documentation.
>
> -Exceptions
> Struts eats exceptions, and spit them out into something else. I have wasted hours in chasing exception I believed had to do with input, jsp, tags, and it turned out to be an simple sql exception from layers away. Don't ask me why or how.
>
> -SET/GET types on objects
> Have to be the same ... got it. F#¤% obscure error msg - wasted a few days on that one.
>
> -Date sucks
> I'm an non-American ... so we got different standards. Cool.
> Ok, wasn't that hard to get yodatime to work, and an converter ... well I got help on that one, but I understand there is a lot of fuzz with it and struts tags.
>
> -Validation
> Is done by xml - great. Did I just said I hate xml?? No??
> I HATE XML PROGRAMMING - ITS UNDEBUGGABLE.
> How nice how the validator sits in between the view and action object and fixes itself.
> What if I want to reuse this code?? What if I want to make logic that is based on result from validation, and type of validation error? I don't know how. I write my own validator.
> Pointless.
>
> -Converters
> Nice idea ... when it works. If not I make my domain objects to take/return strings, and I make my own home/hand -made conversion. Pointless...
>
> -Annotations
> Poison.
> And I have seen baaaaaaad annotation hell done in struts... Say no more.
>
>
> -Debugging.
> What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it.
> What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
> What parameters are coming in from the post/get -> parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I don't know...
> Littering the code with System.out doesn't quite work, but you get surprised sometimes on how stuff seems to work.
> Debugging just sucks.
> Exceptions generate enormous lists which you got to be quite expert to understand.
>
> Coding in struts2 is 5min coding - 1h error hunting. I need to do this and that = 2h googling or code fiddling, 5min coding, 1h error hunting.
>
>
> -- Struts2 sucks
> I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. I got initially expert help to boost my knowledge, but there is a long way until I can say Struts2 speeds up my development. 98% of my time is spent on google/error-hunting.
> Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - they suck. Or in other words - they didn't give me any useful information.
>
> It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take forever.
>
> I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. He introduces struts as a great framework - which it is in the hand of an expert. He does his job, then he quits. Later he is re-hired as an expensive consultant. I for sure are not advocating struts2.
>
> But 98% of devs are not experts... prove me wrong.
>
> Struts2 is by no way easy.
> Java web is actually not easy at all if you start from scratch. My background is college and php. With php you download a LAMP/WAMP package and you can start code very fast with no brains at all. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php. Great doc page too (php.net).
>
> With java you got to setup the right java, eclipse, tomcat, drivers, configure them and make them work. JRE? JDK? JavaSE or JavaEE? Java 1.5 or Java 5? Sun pages is a mixture of mess.
> You have to follow java web standards in how an web app should be organised in folders to be deployed. There is so much that can go wrong - and you just give up.
> You have to learn java, jsp, servlet, java xml config, jsp tags in order to get up an hello world. Add struts2, struts2 xml, struts2 tags, ognl, etc etc
> Html, css, javascript...
> There are separate books for each of those I just mentioned. Find 10 errors.
>
> If a new guy starting tomorrow in my job - with no struts skillz. Will he struggle? Will he get job done? Is my job interested in hiring this kind of ppl? My job want stuff produced, not students that remain as students for 1-2+ years
>
> I want a simple world. Its 2008.
>
> Look to php zend framework - they got a massive site that pretty much talks to an non-expert. Tutorials are pretty step-by-step which covers folder layout, config and everything. Its easy to take an example/demo -> unzip and run in apache. Then add/change stuff is dead easy.
> Im not saying zend is everything, but I had a crud page up and running dead fast with db connection.
>
> Only downside with php is that it's not enterprise mature, and has not got rid of easy-to-make-security-holes problems. And it doesn't scale that well in medium-large production environment since php introduce great freedoms to do spaghetti. And many php devs sucks... But I sure as hell prefer WAMP + notepad++ over any java crap. Cause I can get stuff done.
>
> Struts have the benefit of making programming more structured. It's easy to make a huge mess in servlet/jsp programming that takes ages to rewrite. It separates the coding well. You can much easier have 2 different teams working on each part of an app without generating too much noise.
>
>
> Mvh
> Frode T. Johansen
>
>> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
>> Fra: ted.husted@gmail.com [mailto:ted.husted@gmail.com] På vegne av Ted
>> Husted
>> Sendt: 20. juni 2008 13:43
>> Til: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Emne: [OT] What slows you down?
>>
>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>
>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>
>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>
>> Thoughts? :)
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
--
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Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol, another one that didn't read the sign ;)
I'm really bad at that game; they get me every time.
Dave
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Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
lol, another one that didn't read the sign ;)
musachy
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Frode T. Johansen <Fr...@ist.com> wrote:
>> -Debugging.
>> What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables
>> form post/get? I have a small code for printing that...
>> just pain to use the debugger for it.
>> What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
>
> Or use <s:debug/>.
>
>> What parameters are coming in from the post/get ->
>> parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I
>> don't know...
>
> Use a proxy, live headers, etc. AFAIC it's not the responsibility of the framework to show what's on the wire.
>
>> -- Struts2 sucks
>> I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it.
>
> Just to provide a counter-anecdote, we've been happier with S2 than almost anything else in Java land so far.
>
>> Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first -
>
> Maybe don't say that too loudly since some of us are the authors of those books.
>
>> It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I
>> quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer
>> or re-train another which will take forever.
>
> Again, counter-anecdote; I've worked with three outside companies and have had them up-and-running on S2 in under a week. (They were already Java houses), including simplistic Spring usage, which was also new to them.
>
>> I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich.
>
> Guess what: S2 was made by geeks trying to get work done.
>
> Most of us don't get rich from working on open-source projects, and quite frankly I take a little umbrage at the insinuation, so I'll cut this short--it's too close to the weekend to be baited.
>
>> Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php.
>
> And this is a *good* thing?
>
> If you think inheriting an S2 project is difficult try dealing with an ad-hoc PHP app: there's very, very little worse in the world of computers than PHP apps.
>
> As far as PHP-the-language goes, don't even get me started.
>
> Dave
>
>
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>
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Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Frode T. Johansen <Fr...@ist.com> wrote:
> -Debugging.
> What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables
> form post/get? I have a small code for printing that...
> just pain to use the debugger for it.
> What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
Or use <s:debug/>.
> What parameters are coming in from the post/get ->
> parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I
> don't know...
Use a proxy, live headers, etc. AFAIC it's not the responsibility of the framework to show what's on the wire.
> -- Struts2 sucks
> I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it.
Just to provide a counter-anecdote, we've been happier with S2 than almost anything else in Java land so far.
> Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first -
Maybe don't say that too loudly since some of us are the authors of those books.
> It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I
> quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer
> or re-train another which will take forever.
Again, counter-anecdote; I've worked with three outside companies and have had them up-and-running on S2 in under a week. (They were already Java houses), including simplistic Spring usage, which was also new to them.
> I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich.
Guess what: S2 was made by geeks trying to get work done.
Most of us don't get rich from working on open-source projects, and quite frankly I take a little umbrage at the insinuation, so I'll cut this short--it's too close to the weekend to be baited.
> Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php.
And this is a *good* thing?
If you think inheriting an S2 project is difficult try dealing with an ad-hoc PHP app: there's very, very little worse in the world of computers than PHP apps.
As far as PHP-the-language goes, don't even get me started.
Dave
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SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Frode T. Johansen" <Fr...@ist.com>.
- jsp tags
It was just confusing and time consuming to learn and do alot of c:if/c:forEach/c:choose and make it right. In the beginning I just escaped into java a lot <% %>
-struts tags
I still hate tags like the s:select mixed with i18n, ognl, converters and the lot.
1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 error, 1 type error, and you get NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER what is wrong.
-OGNL
%{}, #{}, ${} ... ????? what eh ... uh. Still don't understand the difference and alot of the complex syntax I find all over the place.
1 word - crap
Another word - total undebuggable
Why on earth do we have to do a lot of logic in jsp files with tags and el?? Gawd I hate that. Then you introduce ognl and struts tags cause el isn't good enough. It's a huge mess. Add sitemesh or whatever....
Boohoo - the web monkey use dreamweaver and can't code. He needs tags boohoo. But he does javascript and ajax, or pretty soon is out of work if he doesn't.
-XML
Xml is a nice tool/format/thingy to save data in. If I ever get a hold of the jerk that suggested to create a semi-sub-scripting-language in xml ...
1 error, 1 type error, 1 misunderstanding ... you will definitely not get a understandable error message if you get one at all....
I think xml was made with the intention that there should be a nice and easy tool on top you could play with, and that tool should save to xml, and then read from it again... not to hand code the crap with an obscure-hello-world-basic-documentation.
-Exceptions
Struts eats exceptions, and spit them out into something else. I have wasted hours in chasing exception I believed had to do with input, jsp, tags, and it turned out to be an simple sql exception from layers away. Don't ask me why or how.
-SET/GET types on objects
Have to be the same ... got it. F#¤% obscure error msg - wasted a few days on that one.
-Date sucks
I'm an non-American ... so we got different standards. Cool.
Ok, wasn't that hard to get yodatime to work, and an converter ... well I got help on that one, but I understand there is a lot of fuzz with it and struts tags.
-Validation
Is done by xml - great. Did I just said I hate xml?? No??
I HATE XML PROGRAMMING - ITS UNDEBUGGABLE.
How nice how the validator sits in between the view and action object and fixes itself.
What if I want to reuse this code?? What if I want to make logic that is based on result from validation, and type of validation error? I don't know how. I write my own validator.
Pointless.
-Converters
Nice idea ... when it works. If not I make my domain objects to take/return strings, and I make my own home/hand -made conversion. Pointless...
-Annotations
Poison.
And I have seen baaaaaaad annotation hell done in struts... Say no more.
-Debugging.
What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it.
What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
What parameters are coming in from the post/get -> parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I don't know...
Littering the code with System.out doesn't quite work, but you get surprised sometimes on how stuff seems to work.
Debugging just sucks.
Exceptions generate enormous lists which you got to be quite expert to understand.
Coding in struts2 is 5min coding - 1h error hunting. I need to do this and that = 2h googling or code fiddling, 5min coding, 1h error hunting.
-- Struts2 sucks
I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. I got initially expert help to boost my knowledge, but there is a long way until I can say Struts2 speeds up my development. 98% of my time is spent on google/error-hunting.
Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - they suck. Or in other words - they didn't give me any useful information.
It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take forever.
I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. He introduces struts as a great framework - which it is in the hand of an expert. He does his job, then he quits. Later he is re-hired as an expensive consultant. I for sure are not advocating struts2.
But 98% of devs are not experts... prove me wrong.
Struts2 is by no way easy.
Java web is actually not easy at all if you start from scratch. My background is college and php. With php you download a LAMP/WAMP package and you can start code very fast with no brains at all. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php. Great doc page too (php.net).
With java you got to setup the right java, eclipse, tomcat, drivers, configure them and make them work. JRE? JDK? JavaSE or JavaEE? Java 1.5 or Java 5? Sun pages is a mixture of mess.
You have to follow java web standards in how an web app should be organised in folders to be deployed. There is so much that can go wrong - and you just give up.
You have to learn java, jsp, servlet, java xml config, jsp tags in order to get up an hello world. Add struts2, struts2 xml, struts2 tags, ognl, etc etc
Html, css, javascript...
There are separate books for each of those I just mentioned. Find 10 errors.
If a new guy starting tomorrow in my job - with no struts skillz. Will he struggle? Will he get job done? Is my job interested in hiring this kind of ppl? My job want stuff produced, not students that remain as students for 1-2+ years
I want a simple world. Its 2008.
Look to php zend framework - they got a massive site that pretty much talks to an non-expert. Tutorials are pretty step-by-step which covers folder layout, config and everything. Its easy to take an example/demo -> unzip and run in apache. Then add/change stuff is dead easy.
Im not saying zend is everything, but I had a crud page up and running dead fast with db connection.
Only downside with php is that it's not enterprise mature, and has not got rid of easy-to-make-security-holes problems. And it doesn't scale that well in medium-large production environment since php introduce great freedoms to do spaghetti. And many php devs sucks... But I sure as hell prefer WAMP + notepad++ over any java crap. Cause I can get stuff done.
Struts have the benefit of making programming more structured. It's easy to make a huge mess in servlet/jsp programming that takes ages to rewrite. It separates the coding well. You can much easier have 2 different teams working on each part of an app without generating too much noise.
Mvh
Frode T. Johansen
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: ted.husted@gmail.com [mailto:ted.husted@gmail.com] På vegne av Ted
> Husted
> Sendt: 20. juni 2008 13:43
> Til: Struts Users Mailing List
> Emne: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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Struts 2.1.2 DateTimePicker
Posted by Jan Froehlich <Ja...@infomotion.de>.
Hi @all...
Are there any other themes or styles or stylesheets for the Struts 2.1.2
datetimepicker available?
Or do I have to overwrite all css classes to change the appearance?
The "dropdown" is very small so its really hard to pick a date. FYI: It
looks like that in IE7 and Firefox 2.
Regards
Jan
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Giovanni Azua <gi...@imc.nl>.
In the context of Struts 2 and from my personal experience as a Struts
framework (pure java-centric) user that does not do webapps development
for a living I would have very much appreciated:
1-. A rather colorful set of Struts Blank applications where you could
get out of the box:
a) Several UI themes to choose from with professional look and feel
=> no worries about graphic design etc (this alone takes away all
efforts involving HTML, CSS, Velocity, Freemarker, and maybe some of the
Javascript too)
b) A selected and consistent setup of plugins and sensitive
dependencies e.g. dojo, tiles or sitemesh, struts menu, displaytag
(afaik many of
us Struts users seem to use/need it) ...
c) Couple of system level concerns implemented out of the box e.g.
user management, authentication.
d) A scalable design e.g. a generic CRUD mapping and best practices
illustrated for implementing c)
2-. Struts 2 full-fledge implementation of the "Pet Store" tackling real
life web application use-cases in addition to the showcase.
3-. Struts 2 IDE support e.g. wizards for generating #1
I have been recently trying to create a #1 for my company branch using
AppFuse as starting point (btw managed to port it to S2.1.2), but it is
a nightmare because here we don't use Spring, Hibernate etc and skinning
out all that out of AppFuse along with their low level access to Servlet
API, overall is becoming a daunting task.
Well, documentation was initially a big issue for me, because of S2
being a relatively new framework. Now there are really good books in the
market specially the "In Action" I can't put it down ... btw I still owe
a review for it in amazon
... just my 2 Cuban pesos :)
regards,
Giovanni
Ted Husted wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by st...@gmail.com.
That's pretty accurate! You know, these reoccurring cycles could be
patterned into framework base classes now that Java support generics. Db4o
works fine in this manner and needs no 2D mappings at all. In fact, I have
a single class that handles all persistence/search behaviors for all my
actions. This persistence tier is largely transparent on my sites and I
never really think about it. My life is centered around modeling the domain
with POJOs (pronounced fun and easy) and of course arm wrestling the darn
pages and tags!
P.S. Pages and tags suck
Scott
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Antonio Petrelli <
antonio.petrelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/6/20 Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>:
> > But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> > time-consuming?
>
> IMHO it's the presence of too many layers of applications. For a
> simple thing like a search result you have to do (for example in
> Struts 1):
> - the JSP page
> - the DAO
> - the service that calls the DAO
> - the domain objects
> - the action that calls the service, and the ActionForm
> - the configuration of the action
> - then go again to JSP pages to link actions together
>
> There are pieces that can be avoided, but the structure almost remains this
> one.
> I think that approaches like NakedObjects [1] and Roma Framework [2]
> could help avoiding this tedious work.
> Anyway there is always some work for adaptation on your particular
> case, many times they seem to be a unique case that cannot be put in
> the general vision of the framework, so you stick on coding it with
> simple frameworks (like Struts 1) or no frameworks at all.
>
> Just my 2 eurocents
> Antonio
>
> [1] http://www.nakedobjects.org/
> [2] http://romaframework.xwiki.com/
>
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--
Scott
stanlick@gmail.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Neil Erdwien <ne...@k-state.edu>.
I'd like to +1 the sentiment that we have too many layers and too many
options for each layer.
I'll resist the temptation to try to list various layers and options --
there are just too many.
What I'd like to add to the discussion is the theory that there is a
natural selection/evolutionary force that causes there creation of lots
of layers and options.
Consider an open source product, say, Struts 1. To do its job, it had
to perform multiple functions. I consider it primarily a controller,
but it had view parts, data transfer parts, database pooling, etc.
In abstract terms, it performed functions W, X, Y, and Z. But it was
*good* at function X -- the others were just needed to fit the pieces
together.
Along comes another developer, who likes Struts 1. But he thinks
function W could be revamped, so he creates a new product that performs
function W (arguably) better than Struts 1. Assume it is popular, and
the best practice, what-every-body-does is use Struts with the
replacement W.
Then the same happens to function Z.
Then someone realizes that function W really could be split into
functions R, S, and T. She creates a replacement that is really good at
function T, but R and S aren't that good.
And the process repeats in a Darwinian pool of evolving goo.
I'm not the best historian, but isn't this is exactly what happened to
Struts 1? It had tags (that got replaced with JSTL). It had database
pooling that got replaced with container-managed persistence. It had
actionforms that got replaced with POJOs. (Evolution is occasionally
backward!)
This isn't a Struts problem directly. It is an open-source problem.
Java seems worse because by its structure it encourages developing thin
layers of objects that call objects that call objects.
In conclusion, the bad news is that we're in an evolutionary period.
The good news is that we're in an evolutionary period.
Dave Newton wrote:
> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> IMHO it's the presence of too many layers of applications.
>
> +1
>
> The most productive environment I've worked in is Lisp (and Smalltalk, I guess). Config, code, HTML, everything was generated from Lisp. I had usable IDE assistance *everywhere*, including across layers.
>
> I'm now playing games with annotations, even *more* games with code generation (both during build and runtime; codegen has always been one of my guilty pleasures), and ways of doing the development itself (literate programming with cross-language weaving) to reduce the amount of time I have to spend switching paradigms, but it's ultimately still in my face on *some* level, even when I don't have to think about it all the time.
>
> The other big issue? The sheer number of options for essentially every single layer :(
>
>> Just my 2 eurocents
>
> Yanno, with the current exchange rate...
>
> Dave
>
>
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--
Neil Erdwien, neil@k-state.edu, 785-532-4905
Acting Associate Director / Web Technologies Manager
Computing and Telecommunications Services, Kansas State University
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMHO it's the presence of too many layers of applications.
+1
The most productive environment I've worked in is Lisp (and Smalltalk, I guess). Config, code, HTML, everything was generated from Lisp. I had usable IDE assistance *everywhere*, including across layers.
I'm now playing games with annotations, even *more* games with code generation (both during build and runtime; codegen has always been one of my guilty pleasures), and ways of doing the development itself (literate programming with cross-language weaving) to reduce the amount of time I have to spend switching paradigms, but it's ultimately still in my face on *some* level, even when I don't have to think about it all the time.
The other big issue? The sheer number of options for essentially every single layer :(
> Just my 2 eurocents
Yanno, with the current exchange rate...
Dave
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>.
2008/6/20 Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>:
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming?
IMHO it's the presence of too many layers of applications. For a
simple thing like a search result you have to do (for example in
Struts 1):
- the JSP page
- the DAO
- the service that calls the DAO
- the domain objects
- the action that calls the service, and the ActionForm
- the configuration of the action
- then go again to JSP pages to link actions together
There are pieces that can be avoided, but the structure almost remains this one.
I think that approaches like NakedObjects [1] and Roma Framework [2]
could help avoiding this tedious work.
Anyway there is always some work for adaptation on your particular
case, many times they seem to be a unique case that cannot be put in
the general vision of the framework, so you stick on coding it with
simple frameworks (like Struts 1) or no frameworks at all.
Just my 2 eurocents
Antonio
[1] http://www.nakedobjects.org/
[2] http://romaframework.xwiki.com/
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by ravi_eze <ra...@ivycomptech.com>.
S2 is awesome by the way it modularises the things.
But to me writing a valid ognl in jsp,validation layer, using value stack
and debugging it is extremely difficult. The only way i do it is re-jaring,
redeploying and restarting the tomcat. Moreover most of the times i do'nt
understand why things are failing?
Tiles is one more thing, i am not clear when i should use getAsString and
when the others. Some times some way works out.
Even today in some expressions scriplets are allowed while in some thing
else they are not allowed (like Map[<%= %>]) doesnt work. I dont see any
exception saying why and what went wrong.
In conversions: for example i can put data into a HashMap<String> but i cant
do it into Dto.someObject.HashMap object... why??? When ever i get such
issus i turn to struts showcase trying to hackit and get my work.. but in
this case it doesnt work.
Writing Freemarker: to be frank i didnt invest good amount of time for it
but AFAIK theres only a freemarker site which can help you.
MOreover it would be nice if we can have an visual IDE using which i will
drag drop things, jsps, actions, interceptors etc (agreed that this doesnt
fall into struts domain.. but its nice to have feature which can
exponentially decrease the dev time :)
Thats my view on this application.
cheers,
ravi
Ted Husted wrote:
>
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
--
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Sent from the Struts - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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RE: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Karr, David" <da...@wamu.net>.
Check the archives for the note I wrote on 6/15 with subject "Some
confusion trying to do ajax form submit". Musachy gave me some very
useful info (read all his responses).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarr, Nathan [mailto:nsarr@library.rochester.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:16 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> Hi David,
>
> That sounds great - thanks for tip. I'm going to grab the
> Beta release ASAP.
>
> -Nate
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karr, David [mailto:david.karr@wamu.net]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 1:47 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sarr, Nathan [mailto:nsarr@library.rochester.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:29 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
> >
> > 2. Validation - since I'm using Yahoo User Interface Libraries
> > (YUI) and my actions are returning JSON or HTML fragments returning
> > INPUT didn't really work out so I removed validation in
> favor of doing
> > it in the ActionSupport class.
> > I'm not sure if there is much struts can do about this one.
>
> Note that in the upcoming 2.1.x release you can use the
> "jsonValidationWorkflowStack" and automatically get action
> errors directly in your JSON results, using the validation
> framework out of the box. There's even a very small
> JavaScript module that integrates with what's expected to be
> there using the Struts tags, so you can do your submit and
> display of errors entirely with the Ajax request. You could
> then use the exact same form and do a regular non-Ajax submit
> and do the exact same validations (if you wanted to).
>
> I verified this with a simple test case, using YUI 2.5.2 and
> Struts2 2.1.2.
>
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RE: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Sarr, Nathan" <ns...@library.rochester.edu>.
Hi David,
That sounds great - thanks for tip. I'm going to grab the Beta release
ASAP.
-Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: Karr, David [mailto:david.karr@wamu.net]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 1:47 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarr, Nathan [mailto:nsarr@library.rochester.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:29 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> 2. Validation - since I'm using Yahoo User Interface Libraries
> (YUI) and my actions are returning JSON or HTML fragments
> returning INPUT didn't really work out so I removed
> validation in favor of doing it in the ActionSupport class.
> I'm not sure if there is much struts can do about this one.
Note that in the upcoming 2.1.x release you can use the
"jsonValidationWorkflowStack" and automatically get action errors
directly in your JSON results, using the validation framework out of the
box. There's even a very small JavaScript module that integrates with
what's expected to be there using the Struts tags, so you can do your
submit and display of errors entirely with the Ajax request. You could
then use the exact same form and do a regular non-Ajax submit and do the
exact same validations (if you wanted to).
I verified this with a simple test case, using YUI 2.5.2 and Struts2
2.1.2.
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RE: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Karr, David" <da...@wamu.net>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarr, Nathan [mailto:nsarr@library.rochester.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:29 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> 2. Validation - since I'm using Yahoo User Interface Libraries
> (YUI) and my actions are returning JSON or HTML fragments
> returning INPUT didn't really work out so I removed
> validation in favor of doing it in the ActionSupport class.
> I'm not sure if there is much struts can do about this one.
Note that in the upcoming 2.1.x release you can use the
"jsonValidationWorkflowStack" and automatically get action errors
directly in your JSON results, using the validation framework out of the
box. There's even a very small JavaScript module that integrates with
what's expected to be there using the Struts tags, so you can do your
submit and display of errors entirely with the Ajax request. You could
then use the exact same form and do a regular non-Ajax submit and do the
exact same validations (if you wanted to).
I verified this with a simple test case, using YUI 2.5.2 and Struts2
2.1.2.
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RE: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by "Sarr, Nathan" <ns...@library.rochester.edu>.
Let me start with I think struts 2 is great
- like some of the others the size of the technology stack and UI seem
to give me the most trouble as well.
Some things I've had to deal with in struts 2 are:
1. The tags - I decided to not use the struts tags as I prefer to
use JSTL and JSP EL as they allow me to style the pages as needed and
there seemed to be some overlap in the functionality - I had to also
write my own JSP tag to get errors out of action errors so I could place
specific messages in any location I needed. I tried extending the tags
but they gave me some trouble so instead I created tags by extending
SimpleTagSupport which was much easier for me.
2. Validation - since I'm using Yahoo User Interface Libraries
(YUI) and my actions are returning JSON or HTML fragments returning
INPUT didn't really work out so I removed validation in favor of doing
it in the ActionSupport class. I'm not sure if there is much struts can
do about this one.
3. I'd have to say I've stayed away from ognl in favor of JSP el.
I'm not sure if the above is due to some of my misunderstanding but
above are some of the things I ran into.
The above is small in comparison to what struts saves me in terms of
time by using Interceptors, populating my classes for me and placing
data on the request.
-Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: ted.husted@gmail.com [mailto:ted.husted@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Ted Husted
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:43 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: [OT] What slows you down?
Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
concerns and have been gathering many followers.
But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
"nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
intractable problems with web development itself?
Thoughts? :)
-Ted.
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
I would have to say: people. It doesn't matter how good frameworks
are, for "some" reason, "some" people decide to write their own
frameworks, and they do a terrible job at it. I always land on these
companies :). Some examples I have seen in my current and last
company:
1. Custom MVC (makes me want to cry)
2. Custom SMTP library
3. Custom FTP library
4. Custom persistence library
5. Custom ajax framework!!!!
musachy
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Roger Varley <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On Friday 20 June 2008 15:07:17 Al Sutton wrote:
> Web Design :). I can code it in a few days, but getting it to look
> pretty so that users don't complain, thats a b**ch.
>
That shouldn't be my problem. I'm a developer not a graphic designer. What
would be nice though, would be if it were easier to label and tag everything
in sight in the generated HTML and then we could simply lob the HTML over the
fence to a graphic designer - which is the route proposed by
http://www.csszengarden.com.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Regards
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Ian Roughley <ia...@fdar.com>.
stanlick@gmail.com wrote:
> I think a web page generator from action/model would be a huge shot in the
> arm. Of course it would need to be gussied up a bit, but doing these by
> hand is a leach on time. I recall a product back in the day that would
> generate pages from db tables.
The is a company in Brazil that has a product like this (can't remember
their name now). Met the folks last Oct and helped them see how s2 could
be leveraged as another action framework - they were using JSF and s1.
There is also J2EE Spider that is open source, and also Brazilian in origin.
Although, I have to say, this approach is great for admin or pure
data-to-tables apps, but most customs apps I write are not this
simplistic when it comes to middle and data tiers.
> Perhaps it's now open source and could be
> leveraged? And then there is the persistence nightmare -- but I have found
> Db4o solves that problem quite nicely.
>
> Scott
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Al Sutton <al...@alsutton.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Web Design :). I can code it in a few days, but getting it to look pretty
>> so that users don't complain, thats a b**ch.
>>
>> Seriously though, one of the things we could do is a something link Suns
>> blueprints or a cookbook of code recepies where we have pages which show and
>> explain the code solutions to common problems.
>>
>> I know there are some bits and bobs around, and there are some sample
>> webapps, but it would be nice to have thinks like the the
>> S2/Spring2/JPA/Ajax page at
>> http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs/struts-2-spring-2-jpa-ajax.html in
>> one place along with some others.
>>
>> Al.
>>
>>
>> Ted Husted wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>>
>>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>>
>>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>>
>>> Thoughts? :)
>>>
>>> -Ted.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by st...@gmail.com.
I think a web page generator from action/model would be a huge shot in the
arm. Of course it would need to be gussied up a bit, but doing these by
hand is a leach on time. I recall a product back in the day that would
generate pages from db tables. Perhaps it's now open source and could be
leveraged? And then there is the persistence nightmare -- but I have found
Db4o solves that problem quite nicely.
Scott
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Al Sutton <al...@alsutton.com> wrote:
> Web Design :). I can code it in a few days, but getting it to look pretty
> so that users don't complain, thats a b**ch.
>
> Seriously though, one of the things we could do is a something link Suns
> blueprints or a cookbook of code recepies where we have pages which show and
> explain the code solutions to common problems.
>
> I know there are some bits and bobs around, and there are some sample
> webapps, but it would be nice to have thinks like the the
> S2/Spring2/JPA/Ajax page at
> http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs/struts-2-spring-2-jpa-ajax.html in
> one place along with some others.
>
> Al.
>
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
>
>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>
>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>
>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>
>> Thoughts? :)
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Scott
stanlick@gmail.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Al Sutton <al...@alsutton.com>.
Web Design :). I can code it in a few days, but getting it to look
pretty so that users don't complain, thats a b**ch.
Seriously though, one of the things we could do is a something link Suns
blueprints or a cookbook of code recepies where we have pages which show
and explain the code solutions to common problems.
I know there are some bits and bobs around, and there are some sample
webapps, but it would be nice to have thinks like the the
S2/Spring2/JPA/Ajax page at
http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs/struts-2-spring-2-jpa-ajax.html
in one place along with some others.
Al.
Ted Husted wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Greg Lindholm <gl...@yahoo.com>.
Sorry, I don't understand your response. Was this about one of my questions
or of list of "slows"?
mgainty wrote:
>
> Greg-
>
> RhinoScript only works with JS files (not ftl or jsp)
>
> Your Best option is to configure in jspc task thru ant using the compiler
> option
> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/jasper-howto.html
> a must have for the build engineer who will want to assure clean jsp pages
> before deploying
>
> Anyone else?
> Martin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Lindholm" <gl...@yahoo.com>
> To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
>
>>
>> When I read this I was being slowed down by constant stopping
>> and starting of Tomcat from within Eclipse...
>> - make a change in an action class
>> - start tomcat
>> - test it... not working
>> - stop tomcat
>> - make a java change
>> - repeat....
>>
>> In this case I was working on validation logic with annotations.
>> How else do you test validation logic? Can you unit test validation
>> logic? Is there a better way? [1]
>>
>> Part of this problem was I wasn't sure if my OGNL expression was correct.
>> How do you test/debug OGNL expressions when they will depend on
>> the ValueStack? [2]
>>
>> Another part of the problem is the doc for FieldExpressionValidator
>> doesn't
>> bother to tell you which direction (true or false) the expression should
>> return to pass or fail the validation. [3]
>>
>> BTW: I really really like Struts 2. Over the years I've went from Struts
>> 1,
>> to JSF, and now Struts 2, and S2 is by far the best and easiest and
>> most enjoyable.
>>
>> The thing that slowed me down the most was the learning curve. I started
>> with
>> the online tutorials, and the "Starting Struts 2" pdf book, then I had
>> to
>> start
>> working on my application. It was very rough going at first, I spent a
>> lot
>> of time
>> in the debugger trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Then I
>> read
>> "Struts 2 Design and Programming" and felt better, went back and fixed
>> some
>> of the bad designs I started with but still was lacking much knowledge.
>> Finally
>> "Struts 2 in Action" was released and I got time to read it **.
>> I finally feel comfortable, and figure I understand how Struts 2 really
>> works.
>> Now I'm going back again and fixing more early bad designs. [4]
>>
>> One more, un-versioned online documentation.
>> Under the URL http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs (which anyone would
>> reasonably believe is documentation for Struts 2.0.11) is documentation
>> that
>> only applies to release 2.1.x. More then a couple of times I've had a
>> problem
>> searched for a solution found it in the 2.0.11.1 docs started
>> implementing
>> it
>> only to discover it was only for 2.1.x. (very frustrating.) [5]
>>
>> [1] Unit testing validation logic
>> [2] Debugging OGNL expressions
>> [3] Poor or incomplete documentation, lack or real-world examples and use
>> cases
>> [4] Learning curve
>> [5] Un-versioned docs.
>>
>> ** Struts 2 in Action is a really good book, highly recommend it.
>> However,
>> I
>> don't think I would have got nearly as much out of it if I hadn't already
>> gone
>> through the other books and hand's on struggles before I read it.
>>
>>
>> Ted Husted wrote:
>>>
>>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>>
>>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>>
>>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>>
>>> Thoughts? :)
>>>
>>> -Ted.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/-OT--What-slows-you-down--tp18027912p18050807.html
>> Sent from the Struts - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-OT--What-slows-you-down--tp18027912p18067156.html
Sent from the Struts - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Validation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Sun, 6/22/08, Doug Pham <do...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have an action that have multiple methods that I mapped
> to. Only one action that I need validation for, the rest
> I don't need. Where can I get information to set this
> up or how do I set it up using the XML file?
http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs/validation.html
DAve
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Validation
Posted by Doug Pham <do...@yahoo.com>.
I have an action that have multiple methods that I mapped to. Only one action that I need validation for, the rest I don't need. Where can I get information to set this up or how do I set it up using the XML file?
Thanks,
Doug
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Sun, 6/22/08, Martin <mg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> RhinoScript only works with JS files (not ftl or jsp)
RhinoScript?
I must have gotten a truncated version of Greg's post; I didn't see anything about JavaScript at all.
Dave
>
> Your Best option is to configure in jspc task thru ant
> using the compiler
> option
> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/jasper-howto.html
> a must have for the build engineer who will want to assure
> clean jsp pages
> before deploying
>
> Anyone else?
> Martin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Lindholm" <gl...@yahoo.com>
> To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
>
> >
> > When I read this I was being slowed down by constant
> stopping
> > and starting of Tomcat from within Eclipse...
> > - make a change in an action class
> > - start tomcat
> > - test it... not working
> > - stop tomcat
> > - make a java change
> > - repeat....
> >
> > In this case I was working on validation logic with
> annotations.
> > How else do you test validation logic? Can you unit
> test validation
> > logic? Is there a better way? [1]
> >
> > Part of this problem was I wasn't sure if my OGNL
> expression was correct.
> > How do you test/debug OGNL expressions when they will
> depend on
> > the ValueStack? [2]
> >
> > Another part of the problem is the doc for
> FieldExpressionValidator
> > doesn't
> > bother to tell you which direction (true or false) the
> expression should
> > return to pass or fail the validation. [3]
> >
> > BTW: I really really like Struts 2. Over the years
> I've went from Struts
> > 1,
> > to JSF, and now Struts 2, and S2 is by far the best
> and easiest and
> > most enjoyable.
> >
> > The thing that slowed me down the most was the
> learning curve. I started
> > with
> > the online tutorials, and the "Starting Struts
> 2" pdf book, then I had to
> > start
> > working on my application. It was very rough going at
> first, I spent a
> > lot
> > of time
> > in the debugger trying to figure out what the hell was
> going on. Then I
> > read
> > "Struts 2 Design and Programming" and felt
> better, went back and fixed
> > some
> > of the bad designs I started with but still was
> lacking much knowledge.
> > Finally
> > "Struts 2 in Action" was released and I got
> time to read it **.
> > I finally feel comfortable, and figure I understand
> how Struts 2 really
> > works.
> > Now I'm going back again and fixing more early bad
> designs. [4]
> >
> > One more, un-versioned online documentation.
> > Under the URL http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs
> (which anyone would
> > reasonably believe is documentation for Struts 2.0.11)
> is documentation
> > that
> > only applies to release 2.1.x. More then a couple of
> times I've had a
> > problem
> > searched for a solution found it in the 2.0.11.1 docs
> started implementing
> > it
> > only to discover it was only for 2.1.x. (very
> frustrating.) [5]
> >
> > [1] Unit testing validation logic
> > [2] Debugging OGNL expressions
> > [3] Poor or incomplete documentation, lack or
> real-world examples and use
> > cases
> > [4] Learning curve
> > [5] Un-versioned docs.
> >
> > ** Struts 2 in Action is a really good book, highly
> recommend it. However,
> > I
> > don't think I would have got nearly as much out of
> it if I hadn't already
> > gone
> > through the other books and hand's on struggles
> before I read it.
> >
> >
> > Ted Husted wrote:
> >>
> >> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to
> the group ...
> >>
> >> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache
> Struts, it still seems
> >> like web application development takes longer than
> it should. Some
> >> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to
> "time to market"
> >> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
> >>
> >> But why does web application still seem so
> difficult or so
> >> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still
> suck days or weeks
> >> out of your development schedule? Are there time
> gremlins that
> >> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of
> every day? Is there anything more
> >> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help?
> Or are just there
> >> intractable problems with web development itself?
> >>
> >> Thoughts? :)
> >>
> >> -Ted.
> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://www.nabble.com/-OT--What-slows-you-down--tp18027912p18050807.html
> > Sent from the Struts - User mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail:
> user-help@struts.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Martin <mg...@hotmail.com>.
Greg-
RhinoScript only works with JS files (not ftl or jsp)
Your Best option is to configure in jspc task thru ant using the compiler
option
http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/jasper-howto.html
a must have for the build engineer who will want to assure clean jsp pages
before deploying
Anyone else?
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Lindholm" <gl...@yahoo.com>
To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> When I read this I was being slowed down by constant stopping
> and starting of Tomcat from within Eclipse...
> - make a change in an action class
> - start tomcat
> - test it... not working
> - stop tomcat
> - make a java change
> - repeat....
>
> In this case I was working on validation logic with annotations.
> How else do you test validation logic? Can you unit test validation
> logic? Is there a better way? [1]
>
> Part of this problem was I wasn't sure if my OGNL expression was correct.
> How do you test/debug OGNL expressions when they will depend on
> the ValueStack? [2]
>
> Another part of the problem is the doc for FieldExpressionValidator
> doesn't
> bother to tell you which direction (true or false) the expression should
> return to pass or fail the validation. [3]
>
> BTW: I really really like Struts 2. Over the years I've went from Struts
> 1,
> to JSF, and now Struts 2, and S2 is by far the best and easiest and
> most enjoyable.
>
> The thing that slowed me down the most was the learning curve. I started
> with
> the online tutorials, and the "Starting Struts 2" pdf book, then I had to
> start
> working on my application. It was very rough going at first, I spent a
> lot
> of time
> in the debugger trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Then I
> read
> "Struts 2 Design and Programming" and felt better, went back and fixed
> some
> of the bad designs I started with but still was lacking much knowledge.
> Finally
> "Struts 2 in Action" was released and I got time to read it **.
> I finally feel comfortable, and figure I understand how Struts 2 really
> works.
> Now I'm going back again and fixing more early bad designs. [4]
>
> One more, un-versioned online documentation.
> Under the URL http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs (which anyone would
> reasonably believe is documentation for Struts 2.0.11) is documentation
> that
> only applies to release 2.1.x. More then a couple of times I've had a
> problem
> searched for a solution found it in the 2.0.11.1 docs started implementing
> it
> only to discover it was only for 2.1.x. (very frustrating.) [5]
>
> [1] Unit testing validation logic
> [2] Debugging OGNL expressions
> [3] Poor or incomplete documentation, lack or real-world examples and use
> cases
> [4] Learning curve
> [5] Un-versioned docs.
>
> ** Struts 2 in Action is a really good book, highly recommend it. However,
> I
> don't think I would have got nearly as much out of it if I hadn't already
> gone
> through the other books and hand's on struggles before I read it.
>
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
>>
>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>
>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>
>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>
>> Thoughts? :)
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/-OT--What-slows-you-down--tp18027912p18050807.html
> Sent from the Struts - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Greg Lindholm <gl...@yahoo.com>.
When I read this I was being slowed down by constant stopping
and starting of Tomcat from within Eclipse...
- make a change in an action class
- start tomcat
- test it... not working
- stop tomcat
- make a java change
- repeat....
In this case I was working on validation logic with annotations.
How else do you test validation logic? Can you unit test validation
logic? Is there a better way? [1]
Part of this problem was I wasn't sure if my OGNL expression was correct.
How do you test/debug OGNL expressions when they will depend on
the ValueStack? [2]
Another part of the problem is the doc for FieldExpressionValidator doesn't
bother to tell you which direction (true or false) the expression should
return to pass or fail the validation. [3]
BTW: I really really like Struts 2. Over the years I've went from Struts 1,
to JSF, and now Struts 2, and S2 is by far the best and easiest and
most enjoyable.
The thing that slowed me down the most was the learning curve. I started
with
the online tutorials, and the "Starting Struts 2" pdf book, then I had to
start
working on my application. It was very rough going at first, I spent a lot
of time
in the debugger trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Then I
read
"Struts 2 Design and Programming" and felt better, went back and fixed some
of the bad designs I started with but still was lacking much knowledge.
Finally
"Struts 2 in Action" was released and I got time to read it **.
I finally feel comfortable, and figure I understand how Struts 2 really
works.
Now I'm going back again and fixing more early bad designs. [4]
One more, un-versioned online documentation.
Under the URL http://struts.apache.org/2.0.11.1/docs (which anyone would
reasonably believe is documentation for Struts 2.0.11) is documentation that
only applies to release 2.1.x. More then a couple of times I've had a
problem
searched for a solution found it in the 2.0.11.1 docs started implementing
it
only to discover it was only for 2.1.x. (very frustrating.) [5]
[1] Unit testing validation logic
[2] Debugging OGNL expressions
[3] Poor or incomplete documentation, lack or real-world examples and use
cases
[4] Learning curve
[5] Un-versioned docs.
** Struts 2 in Action is a really good book, highly recommend it. However, I
don't think I would have got nearly as much out of it if I hadn't already
gone
through the other books and hand's on struggles before I read it.
Ted Husted wrote:
>
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com>.
Part of what's going on for me is that Struts 2 provides me with such a
large improvement in productivity over the last two Java web frameworks that
I used (Struts 1 and JSF) I haven't yet gotten over my pleasure with the
framework. I haven't gotten ticked off at it yet, because even when
something isn't working the way I expected, and I'm mildly annoyed, there's
an almost audible pounding inside my head: STILL BETTER THAN JSF.
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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--
Jim Kiley
Technical Consultant | Summa
[p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
http://www.summa-tech.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by st...@gmail.com.
Actually, I applaud you. If you need to debug jsp pages, you have bigger
problems!
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
> Gah, I have been using MyEclipse for two years and never noticed the JSP
> debugger. How embarrassing.
>
> jk
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
> >> > I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
> >> > log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
> >> > could?).
> >>
> >> AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What environment
> >> are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
> >>
> >
> > Well it's possible that I'm just a dope on both of these points.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
> >> > hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
> >> > his code.
> >>
> >> He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
> >>
> >>
> > So say we all.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim Kiley
> > Technical Consultant | Summa
> > [p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
> > http://www.summa-tech.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kiley
> Technical Consultant | Summa
> [p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
> http://www.summa-tech.com
>
--
Scott
stanlick@gmail.com
RE: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Giovanni Azua <br...@swissonline.ch>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Kiley [mailto:jhkiley@summa-tech.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:37 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> Gah, I have been using MyEclipse for two years and never noticed the JSP
> debugger. How embarrassing.
>
> jk
lol! the same here, more than two years using MyEclipse and did never
realized I could debug JSP, indeed a very good thing that we haven't had any
strong need for it when using (correctly) Struts 2 :)
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
> Gah, I have been using MyEclipse for two years and never
> noticed the JSP debugger. How embarrassing.
*lol*
I almost never use JSP debuggers, but on occasion they're *really* handy :)
Dave
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com>.
Gah, I have been using MyEclipse for two years and never noticed the JSP
debugger. How embarrassing.
jk
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
>> > I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
>> > log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
>> > could?).
>>
>> AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What environment
>> are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
>>
>
> Well it's possible that I'm just a dope on both of these points.
>
>
>>
>> > the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
>> > hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
>> > his code.
>>
>> He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
>>
>>
> So say we all.
>
>
> --
> Jim Kiley
> Technical Consultant | Summa
> [p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
> http://www.summa-tech.com
>
--
Jim Kiley
Technical Consultant | Summa
[p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
http://www.summa-tech.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com>.
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
> > I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
> > log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
> > could?).
>
> AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What environment
> are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
>
Well it's possible that I'm just a dope on both of these points.
>
> > the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
> > hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
> > his code.
>
> He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
>
>
So say we all.
--
Jim Kiley
Technical Consultant | Summa
[p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
http://www.summa-tech.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Ian Roughley <ia...@fdar.com>.
And don't forget <s:debug /> and the debug interceptor (that I believe
dumps to log file/xml) :-)
Martin wrote:
> something about the difference between developer (someone who only
> works one version of an IDE)
> and a software engineer who can engineer a solution (regardless of the
> IDE)
>
> for debugging check out console out <c:out
> http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/sandbox/doc/iterators-doc/index.html
>
> HTH
> Martin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Newton" <ne...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
>
>
>> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
>>> I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
>>> log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
>>> could?).
>>
>> AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What
>> environment are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
>>
>>> the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
>>> hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
>>> his code.
>>
>> He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Martin <mg...@hotmail.com>.
something about the difference between developer (someone who only works one
version of an IDE)
and a software engineer who can engineer a solution (regardless of the IDE)
for debugging check out console out <c:out
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/sandbox/doc/iterators-doc/index.html
HTH
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Newton" <ne...@yahoo.com>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] What slows you down?
> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
>> I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
>> log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
>> could?).
>
> AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What environment
> are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
>
>> the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
>> hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
>> his code.
>
> He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com> wrote:
> I don't have a JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate
> log statements (wow, wouldn't it be awesome if they
> could?).
AFAIK they can, although I'll often just use a println. What environment are you using that you don't have a JSP debugger, though?
> the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
> hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote
> his code.
He wanted to not be programming in ColdFusion.
Dave
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Jim Kiley <jh...@summa-tech.com>.
With Struts 2 I've got testability right down the spine of the application.
There's very little Java I can write that I can't test. And testing really
does speed up your application development cycle, as I'm sure the pros here
know.
The stuff I can't test is what slows me down: JSP, and the gap between my
JSP and my Struts actions. There are times where I've screwed up the wiring
between them, and can't for the life of me figure out why. I don't have a
JSP debugger, and JSPs don't generate log statements (wow, wouldn't it be
awesome if they could?). So tracking that down is time-consuming for me.
CSS doesn't slow me down nearly as much as it used to thanks to Firebug.
Honestly, otherwise, right now I'm working on converting an old ColdFusion
app to Struts 2 and the most time-consuming part is figuring out what the
hell the previous CF programmer wanted when he wrote his code.
jk
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Jim Kiley
Technical Consultant | Summa
[p] 412.258.3346 [m] 412.445.1729
http://www.summa-tech.com
Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
Am Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 13:43:00 schrieb Ted Husted:
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
I had to work on a RCP application the last months - and I can't tell you how
happy I am to be back at the web and struts2. So in my oppinion there is no
real problem with web development... Struts2 is great, and it helps a lot in
being productive. The flexibility is unmatched, the possibilities endless.
The only problem I see is that it is not as easy to learn the framework as it
should be. That starts with the documentation, the many plugins which all do
the same things and the fact that there is no defined way of doing standard
jobs. Once you managed to select what you need, the world is ok. And you
learn to love the flexibility. But to get there is hard work.
What would really help is a good freemarker plugin for my favorite IDE - not
exactly freemarker but freemarker on top of html. Think that's my biggest
time killer atm.
Piero
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>.
2008/6/22 Jeromy Evans <je...@blueskyminds.com.au>:
> Internet Explorer
Ok let's start a flame war: Windows, Websphere, RAD :-D
Antonio
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
--- On Sat, 6/21/08, Jeromy Evans wrote:
> Internet Explorer
+1
What a pile.
Dave
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Re: [OT] What slows you down?
Posted by Jeromy Evans <je...@blueskyminds.com.au>.
Internet Explorer
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