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Posted to dev@cxf.apache.org by Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com> on 2009/06/15 07:54:24 UTC
Questions about CXF WS-RM
Hi CXF Team,
what's the current state of CXF WS-RM?
I'm asking because we'd like to integrate probably
WS-RM in our JBossWS CXF integration.
The main questions are:
* Which WS-RM specs are supported now (I know about 1.0, is 1.1
supported already)?
* Is QoS (Quality of Service) ensured in CXF WS-RM implementation?
* Is current CXF WS-RM implementation tightly coupled with Endpoint?
* Is there some API for client side when receiving undelivered
messages? Where I could find it?
* Is there some detailed architecture documentation about CXF WS-RM?
Thanks,
Richard
--
Richard Opalka
JBoss Software Engineer
Mail: ropalka@redhat.com
Mobile: +420 731 186 942
Re: Questions about CXF WS-RM
Posted by Eoghan Glynn <eo...@gmail.com>.
Hi Richard, further comments in-line ...
> IMHO WS-RM 1.1 is the right way to do WS-RM, because this spec.
> addresses unacknowledged anonymous messages use case (see
WS-MakeConnection)
> This usecase wasn't addressed in WS-RM 1.0 and so I consider
> this old RM spec. broken.
Absolutely, the MakeConnection mechanism is the biggest motivation for
moving to 1.1.
> I don't see the relevant source code for CXF bus integration?
Well the "bus integration" is just the addition of the RM interceptors to
the Bus-level interceptor chains as opposed to the per-endpoint chains.
> Could you give me the pointer to impl or test?
The interceptors can be added explicitly to the Bus-level chains a la:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cxf/trunk/systests/src/test/java/org/apache/cxf/systest/ws/rm/rminterceptors.xml?revision=773965
or implicitly by setting the <wsrm-mgr:reliableMessaging> feature on the Bus
instance, e.g.:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/cxf/trunk/distribution/src/main/release/samples/ws_rm/src/demo/ws_rm/server/ws_rm.xml?view=co
> And how is the integration with other WS-* technologies?
Well WS-RM requires WS-Addressing, so these will always be working together.
What other specific WS-* services did you have in mind?
> I mean do CXF WS-RM support e.g. WS-RM with WS-Security?
I don't believe we've done any specific testing of WS-Security with WS-RM.
Dan may have a better sense of this, but off the top of my head there *may*
be issues with re-transmitted messages (e.g. replay detection may get in the
way, though I guess if the message went un-acknowledged in the first place,
the original message may never have been seen by the WS-Sec layer).
> If I have two RM responses comming from the server (I mean RM responses
with real SOAP response).
> How this is handled? User should take care of that there can be more than
just one async SOAP response?
> What if client will use synchronous JAX-WS api?
There is no problem with a client having multiple outstanding requests to
the same server/endpoint. WS-Addressing message correlation will ensure that
each response is correlated to the corresponding request (requests contain a
<wsa:MessageID> header which is then referenced in the response's
<wsa:RelatesTo> header). This is true whether the request is made via JAX-WS
async (a purely client-side thread-based mchanism) and/or is decoupled (in
which case the server sends the response over a *separate* server->client
connection). Similarly it would also be true when the WS-RM 1.1
MakeConnection mechanism is supported.
> Well this should be addressed in JAX-WS spec otherwise this would leave to
proprietary client side API
> for manipulating the client RM store. Let's see what will come out with
next metro release. AFAIK
> the Sun folks are working on RM 1.1 at the moment there.
Yes, it would have to be proprietary if the JAX-WS spec doesn't address this
issue.
But when you say "should be addressed in the JAX-WS spec", do you mean in
2.3? I haven't heard that JAX-WS 2.2 will address this.
Cheers,
Eoghan
2009/6/18 Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com>
> Hi Eoghan,
>
> see in lined comments below:
>
> Richard
>
> Eoghan Glynn wrote:
>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> Apologies for the delay in replying.
>>
> NP
>
>> Please see my comments in-line.
>>
>> 2009/6/15 Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com>:
>>
>>
>>> what's the current state of CXF WS-RM?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> See below.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm asking because we'd like to integrate probably
>>> WS-RM in our JBossWS CXF integration.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Great that you're thinking of using CXF WS-RM.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The main questions are:
>>> * Which WS-RM specs are supported now (I know about 1.0, is 1.1 supported
>>> already)?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Only WS-RM 1.0 (2005/02) is supported as yet. This was the current
>> version of the spec when the original RM implementation was done as
>> part of the Celtix project (the precursor to CXF).
>>
>> We've had some interest in WS-RM 1.1 and I intend to do a costing on
>> the implementation effort soon, and hopefully will get the time to
>> implement support for it in the CXF 2.3 timeframe.
>>
>>
> IMHO WS-RM 1.1 is the right way to do WS-RM, because this spec.
> addresses unacknowledged anonymous messages use case (see
> WS-MakeConnection)
> This usecase wasn't addressed in WS-RM 1.0 and so I consider
> this old RM spec. broken.
>
>>
>>
>>> * Is QoS (Quality of Service) ensured in CXF WS-RM implementation?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well yes, in so far as the qualities of service envisaged by the WS-RM
>> spec as concerned. So for example the policy with regard to ordering
>> and duplicates may be asserted via the
>> /ws-rm-policy:RMAssertion/ws-rm:deliveryAssurance element in config
>> (see schema[1]).
>>
>> However other QoS typically available in the MOM world, such as
>> message expiration/TTL and priority, are not part of WS-RM.
>>
>>
> I'm asking about 2.4 Delivery Assurances (see WS-RX 1.1 specification)
> Thus I consider you respond "yes" from this point of view ;)
>
>>
>>
>>> * Is current CXF WS-RM implementation tightly coupled with Endpoint?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, CXF WS-RM can be configured on a per-endpoint basis, or for the
>> entire Bus.
>>
>>
> I don't see the relevant source code for CXF bus integration?
> Could you give me the pointer to impl or test?
>
>> However, internally the WS-RM layer creates an RMEndpoint for each
>> org.apache.cxf.endpoint.Endpoint with which a reliable exchange
>> occurs.
>>
>> So that sense there is a certain one-to-one-ness going on. Is that
>> what you meant by being tightly coupled?
>>
>> Or were you more thinking of using WS-RM to mediate message exchanges
>> with something other than CXF endpoints?
>>
>>
> And how is the integration with other WS-* technologies?
> I mean do CXF WS-RM support e.g. WS-RM with WS-Security?
>
>
>>
>>> * Is there some API for client side when receiving undelivered messages?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> By undelivered messages, do you mean un-acknowledged messages that
>> have been resent?
>>
>> If the original client is still running, then the retransmitted
>> response message will be delivered to the application in the normal
>> way (either by virtue of the invoking client thread being blocked, or
>> via a callback or pollable for an asynchronous invocation).
>>
>>
> If I have two RM responses comming from the server (I mean RM responses
> with real SOAP response).
> How this is handled? User should take care of that there can be more than
> just one async SOAP response?
> What if client will use synchronous JAX-WS api?
>
>> However, if the client application has been restarted since the
>> original request was sent, then there is no way currently for the
>> resent message to rendez-vous with the application logic. This
>> deficiency was clear to us when the original RM implementation was
>> done, and we had at the back of our mind the intention to do something
>> about it, via some sort of persistent callback mechanism. Any ideas
>> you might have in this regard would be welcome.
>>
>>
> Well this should be addressed in JAX-WS spec otherwise this would leave to
> proprietary client side API
> for manipulating the client RM store. Let's see what will come out with
> next metro release. AFAIK
> the Sun folks are working on RM 1.1 at the moment there.
>
>>
>>
>>> Where I could find it?
>>> * Is there some detailed architecture documentation about CXF WS-RM?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No, unfortunately.
>>
>>
> Hmm :(
>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Eoghan
>>
>> [1]
>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/trunk/rt/ws/rm/src/main/resources/schemas/configuration/wsrm-manager-types.xsd
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Richard Opalka
> JBoss Software Engineer
>
> Mail: ropalka@redhat.com
> Mobile: +420 731 186 942
>
>
Re: Questions about CXF WS-RM
Posted by Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com>.
Hi Eoghan,
see in lined comments below:
Richard
Eoghan Glynn wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> Apologies for the delay in replying.
NP
> Please see my comments in-line.
>
> 2009/6/15 Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com>:
>
>> what's the current state of CXF WS-RM?
>>
>
> See below.
>
>
>> I'm asking because we'd like to integrate probably
>> WS-RM in our JBossWS CXF integration.
>>
>
> Great that you're thinking of using CXF WS-RM.
>
>
>> The main questions are:
>> * Which WS-RM specs are supported now (I know about 1.0, is 1.1 supported
>> already)?
>>
>
> Only WS-RM 1.0 (2005/02) is supported as yet. This was the current
> version of the spec when the original RM implementation was done as
> part of the Celtix project (the precursor to CXF).
>
> We've had some interest in WS-RM 1.1 and I intend to do a costing on
> the implementation effort soon, and hopefully will get the time to
> implement support for it in the CXF 2.3 timeframe.
>
IMHO WS-RM 1.1 is the right way to do WS-RM, because this spec.
addresses unacknowledged anonymous messages use case (see WS-MakeConnection)
This usecase wasn't addressed in WS-RM 1.0 and so I consider
this old RM spec. broken.
>
>> * Is QoS (Quality of Service) ensured in CXF WS-RM implementation?
>>
>
> Well yes, in so far as the qualities of service envisaged by the WS-RM
> spec as concerned. So for example the policy with regard to ordering
> and duplicates may be asserted via the
> /ws-rm-policy:RMAssertion/ws-rm:deliveryAssurance element in config
> (see schema[1]).
>
> However other QoS typically available in the MOM world, such as
> message expiration/TTL and priority, are not part of WS-RM.
>
I'm asking about 2.4 Delivery Assurances (see WS-RX 1.1 specification)
Thus I consider you respond "yes" from this point of view ;)
>
>> * Is current CXF WS-RM implementation tightly coupled with Endpoint?
>>
>
> Well, CXF WS-RM can be configured on a per-endpoint basis, or for the
> entire Bus.
>
I don't see the relevant source code for CXF bus integration?
Could you give me the pointer to impl or test?
> However, internally the WS-RM layer creates an RMEndpoint for each
> org.apache.cxf.endpoint.Endpoint with which a reliable exchange
> occurs.
>
> So that sense there is a certain one-to-one-ness going on. Is that
> what you meant by being tightly coupled?
>
> Or were you more thinking of using WS-RM to mediate message exchanges
> with something other than CXF endpoints?
>
And how is the integration with other WS-* technologies?
I mean do CXF WS-RM support e.g. WS-RM with WS-Security?
>
>> * Is there some API for client side when receiving undelivered messages?
>>
>
> By undelivered messages, do you mean un-acknowledged messages that
> have been resent?
>
> If the original client is still running, then the retransmitted
> response message will be delivered to the application in the normal
> way (either by virtue of the invoking client thread being blocked, or
> via a callback or pollable for an asynchronous invocation).
>
If I have two RM responses comming from the server (I mean RM responses
with real SOAP response).
How this is handled? User should take care of that there can be more
than just one async SOAP response?
What if client will use synchronous JAX-WS api?
> However, if the client application has been restarted since the
> original request was sent, then there is no way currently for the
> resent message to rendez-vous with the application logic. This
> deficiency was clear to us when the original RM implementation was
> done, and we had at the back of our mind the intention to do something
> about it, via some sort of persistent callback mechanism. Any ideas
> you might have in this regard would be welcome.
>
Well this should be addressed in JAX-WS spec otherwise this would leave
to proprietary client side API
for manipulating the client RM store. Let's see what will come out with
next metro release. AFAIK
the Sun folks are working on RM 1.1 at the moment there.
>
>> Where I could find it?
>> * Is there some detailed architecture documentation about CXF WS-RM?
>>
>
> No, unfortunately.
>
Hmm :(
> Hope this helps,
> Eoghan
>
> [1] http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/trunk/rt/ws/rm/src/main/resources/schemas/configuration/wsrm-manager-types.xsd
>
--
Richard Opalka
JBoss Software Engineer
Mail: ropalka@redhat.com
Mobile: +420 731 186 942
Re: Questions about CXF WS-RM
Posted by Eoghan Glynn <eo...@gmail.com>.
Hi Richard,
Apologies for the delay in replying. Please see my comments in-line.
2009/6/15 Richard Opalka <ro...@redhat.com>:
> what's the current state of CXF WS-RM?
See below.
> I'm asking because we'd like to integrate probably
> WS-RM in our JBossWS CXF integration.
Great that you're thinking of using CXF WS-RM.
> The main questions are:
> * Which WS-RM specs are supported now (I know about 1.0, is 1.1 supported
> already)?
Only WS-RM 1.0 (2005/02) is supported as yet. This was the current
version of the spec when the original RM implementation was done as
part of the Celtix project (the precursor to CXF).
We've had some interest in WS-RM 1.1 and I intend to do a costing on
the implementation effort soon, and hopefully will get the time to
implement support for it in the CXF 2.3 timeframe.
> * Is QoS (Quality of Service) ensured in CXF WS-RM implementation?
Well yes, in so far as the qualities of service envisaged by the WS-RM
spec as concerned. So for example the policy with regard to ordering
and duplicates may be asserted via the
/ws-rm-policy:RMAssertion/ws-rm:deliveryAssurance element in config
(see schema[1]).
However other QoS typically available in the MOM world, such as
message expiration/TTL and priority, are not part of WS-RM.
> * Is current CXF WS-RM implementation tightly coupled with Endpoint?
Well, CXF WS-RM can be configured on a per-endpoint basis, or for the
entire Bus.
However, internally the WS-RM layer creates an RMEndpoint for each
org.apache.cxf.endpoint.Endpoint with which a reliable exchange
occurs.
So that sense there is a certain one-to-one-ness going on. Is that
what you meant by being tightly coupled?
Or were you more thinking of using WS-RM to mediate message exchanges
with something other than CXF endpoints?
> * Is there some API for client side when receiving undelivered messages?
By undelivered messages, do you mean un-acknowledged messages that
have been resent?
If the original client is still running, then the retransmitted
response message will be delivered to the application in the normal
way (either by virtue of the invoking client thread being blocked, or
via a callback or pollable for an asynchronous invocation).
However, if the client application has been restarted since the
original request was sent, then there is no way currently for the
resent message to rendez-vous with the application logic. This
deficiency was clear to us when the original RM implementation was
done, and we had at the back of our mind the intention to do something
about it, via some sort of persistent callback mechanism. Any ideas
you might have in this regard would be welcome.
> Where I could find it?
> * Is there some detailed architecture documentation about CXF WS-RM?
No, unfortunately.
Hope this helps,
Eoghan
[1] http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/cxf/trunk/rt/ws/rm/src/main/resources/schemas/configuration/wsrm-manager-types.xsd