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Posted to marketing@couchdb.apache.org by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> on 2015/09/15 21:51:55 UTC
[VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Hi all,
as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
We have two contestants.
Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
Without further ado, here are our proposals.
* * *
Proposal #1:
Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
Your Vote Here
* * *
Proposal #2:
Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
Description:
Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
Your Vote Here
* * *
Thanks!
Jan
--
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
+1
johs
> On 16. sep. 2015, at 04.45, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Would be happy to see
> more options and an additional vote, if people prefer.
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
My vote and reasoning matches Michelle's. Would be happy to see
more options and an additional vote, if people prefer.
-Joan
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michelle Phung" <mi...@apache.org>
> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:07:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
>
> #1: +1
> #2: -1
> reasons are inline
>
> -michellep
>
> > On Sep 15, 2015, at 3:51 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement,
> > and Description.
> >
> > We have two contestants.
> >
> > Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
> >
> > 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that
> > convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a
> > fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
> >
> > 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your
> > favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the
> > focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we
> > all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote
> > accordingly.
> >
> > 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this
> > email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your
> > Vote Here”.
> >
> > 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no
> > harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and
> > C, (and please do include your reasons)).
> >
> > 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either
> > proposal.
> >
> >
> > A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope
> > you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and
> > HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
> >
> > Without further ado, here are our proposals.
> >
> > * * *
> >
> > Proposal #1:
> >
> > Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
> >
> > Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where
> > you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is
> > implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every
> > imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters,
> > over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
> >
> > Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with
> > any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love
> > CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary
> > attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication
> > Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to
> > mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling,
> > offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance
> > and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly
> > query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient,
> > and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
> >
> > Your Vote Here
> +1
> seems straight-forward, language flows well
> > * * *
> >
> > Proposal #2:
> >
> > Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
> >
> > Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
> >
> > Description:
> > Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading
> > cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you
> > want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It
> > lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You
> > can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve
> > millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't
> > break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be,
> > on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share,
> > combine, present, receive and update documents via
> > master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor
> > changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
> >
> > Your Vote Here
> -1
> don’t like the word “leading”, (seems unnecessary, and doesn’t denote
> anything) (this is in both descriptions btw)
> many colloquialisms
> "Share, combine, present, receive and update” is too long a list
> dislike the word ‘if’ used in the description, (making assumptions)
>
> > * * *
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Jan
> > --
> >
> >
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Michelle Phung <mi...@apache.org>.
#1: +1
#2: -1
reasons are inline
-michellep
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 3:51 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
+1
seems straight-forward, language flows well
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
-1
don’t like the word “leading”, (seems unnecessary, and doesn’t denote anything) (this is in both descriptions btw)
many colloquialisms
"Share, combine, present, receive and update” is too long a list
dislike the word ‘if’ used in the description, (making assumptions)
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Nick Pavlica <li...@gmail.com>.
>
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> +1 -> I still like this proposal the best, especially after having
> several months to kick it around.
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
-1 -> Because it's to generic, and doesn't lead me to a conclusion as
to a why, what, or how.
Regards!
--Nick
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by ermouth <er...@gmail.com>.
As for slogans: -1, -1
#1 slogan is too wide, fits any IT-related biz.
Verizon wireless. Data were you need it.
Kingston. Data were you need it.
Bloomberg. Data were you need it.
MySQL. Data were you need it.
... etc.
#2 is bit hippy, as for me.
I have a proposal. Seems there exist about 10 slogan options. Shouldn‘t we
first pick a slogan from the full list of options we have?
Seems that ol consisting only of slogans can be very compact, well
readable, easy to vote and can attract more attention.
As for mission and description – they are important, but much less
significant in terms of brand‘s first impression. So may be it‘s reasonable
to exclude mission/description on current stage? I don‘t even sure they
require voting.
ermouth
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Harald Kisch <ha...@gmail.com>.
Proposal 1: -1
Proposal 2: -1
I dont like both proposals, too because they are to much related to data
storage, as all the other databases on the market which can be used as
stupid data stores. Yes, CouchDB is a database, but with a JavaScript core
in it, hey should'nt we mention that?
AND it is also:
* a Webserver
* an Web-App-Engine
* a HTTP/HTTPS speaking Any-Device- and
* a Any-File Replicator
We shold take that in mind and claim it to all the users out there. I
think, they will be more interested in *-Features than in just another data
store and hey, there are people who doesn't know something about "speaking
JSON", "technology stack", "replication protocol".
-- Harald
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and
> Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey
> ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get
> things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite
> features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our
> community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what
> excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with
> your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done
> either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do
> include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you
> don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway,
> as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need
> it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a
> variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing
> environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web
> browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any
> leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB,
> because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all
> your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow
> seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers,
> enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining
> high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a
> developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple,
> efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud
> provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since
> CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your
> JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest
> of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a
> learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your
> users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline.
> Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master
> replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional
> processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
--
Dipl.-Inf. Harald R. Kisch
Büro besetzt von Di - Do 9:00 Uhr bis 18:00 Uhr
Jahnstr. 3
80469 München
Germany
Tel: +49 (0) 89 41 61 58 57-6
Mobil DE: +49 (0) 176 56 58 58 38
Skype: harald.kisch
Mail: haraldkisch@gmail.com
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Sebastian Rothbucher <se...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
thanks for all the effort of putting these things together. pls. find my
votes below (if I'm not eligible 2 vote pls. take it as feedback ;-) ).
Thanks
Sebastian
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and
> Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey
> ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get
> things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite
> features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our
> community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what
> excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with
> your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done
> either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do
> include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you
> don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway,
> as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need
> it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a
> variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing
> environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web
> browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any
> leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB,
> because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all
> your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow
> seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers,
> enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining
> high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a
> developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple,
> efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
+1
maybe one small improvement: mention that all you need is HTTP/REST to
access data. Maybe "[...] data retrieval. All you need to get started is
CouchDB and curl". But I would not insist. I like the work above as it is.
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud
> provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since
> CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your
> JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest
> of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a
> learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your
> users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline.
> Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master
> replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional
> processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
-1 "freedom" lacks explanation, and it's foremost still a database, not a
sync tool (though syncing is its strong plus). Yet: going only for sync
missses the point whereas #1 cares about "data" as it's a _data_base
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
Jan, thanks for putting this together ... my votes below as requested.
On 15 September 2015 at 21:51, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and
> Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey
> ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get
> things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite
> features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our
> community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what
> excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with
> your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done
> either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do
> include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you
> don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway,
> as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need
> it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a
> variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing
> environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web
> browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any
> leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB,
> because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all
> your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow
> seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers,
> enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining
> high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a
> developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple,
> efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
+1
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud
> provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since
> CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your
> JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest
> of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a
> learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your
> users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline.
> Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master
> replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional
> processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
-1
"Restful freedom" is a bit to emotional or dramatic for me (in German:
pathetisch). I like "Data that sync" but "Data where you need it" is much
more powerful for me.
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
Cheers
Andy
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
> On 15 Sep 2015, at 22:23, Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>
> Proposal #1: 0
> Proposal #2: 0
>
> Both of them are horrible. They capture little of the discussion of the past several months. The slogans are uninspired and uninspiring. The rest is wordy.
>
> Go back to the drawing board.
Respectfully, please put forward something you’d like to see.
Best
Jan
--
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>>
>> We have two contestants.
>>
>> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>>
>> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>>
>> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>>
>> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>>
>> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>>
>> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>>
>>
>> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>>
>> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> Proposal #1:
>>
>> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>>
>> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>>
>> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>>
>> Your Vote Here
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> Proposal #2:
>>
>> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>>
>> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>>
>> Description:
>> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>>
>> Your Vote Here
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jan
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
--
Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net>.
Proposal #1: 0
Proposal #2: 0
Both of them are horrible. They capture little of the discussion of the
past several months. The slogans are uninspired and uninspiring. The
rest is wordy.
Go back to the drawing board.
Miles Fidelman
Jan Lehnardt wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
> On 15 Sep 2015, at 21:51, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
+1
I believe the WHY captures the one thing that we all share of the things that excite us about CouchDB and what embodies the core potential of CouchDB. The HOW and WHAT parts will need some copy-editing to read a litte nicer, but I think content-wise they capture what most people will find appealing when they look at CouchDB.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
-1
Aside from the (intentional) grammar-nit in the HOW that I can’t get beyond, I think the WHY, while it does express what we are about, doesn’t quite capture what we are about in a way that addresses our end-users needs or pains. It would be more fitting as for a community-internal, say, event or something like that.
Best
Jan
--
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Sebastian Rothbucher <se...@googlemail.com>.
great - thanks!!
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> +1 on using Twitter for this
> I can volunteer to make a proposal for the staging and follow-up by PMC --
> that needs to be in place for this not to go wrong also
> for AFS compliance, reports could be made on the mailing list.
>
> Johs
>
> > On 16. sep. 2015, at 14.42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> what went wrong?
> >> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
> >
> > ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
> >>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic
> was
> > issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
> > just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
> >
> > And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
> > threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more
> ugly.
> >
> >> Imo this should be a form where
> >
> > Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
> > and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> > three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
> > of good new slogans.
> >
> > Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
> > about 10-15-20 positions I think.
> >
> > For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting
> should
> > hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates
> person‘s
> > curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
> > want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
> > just to uncover current results.
> >
> >> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
> >
> > It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
> >
> > BR
> >
> > ermouth
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
+1 for using twitter
2015-09-16 15:02 GMT+02:00 Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>:
> +1 on using Twitter for this
> I can volunteer to make a proposal for the staging and follow-up by PMC --
> that needs to be in place for this not to go wrong also
> for AFS compliance, reports could be made on the mailing list.
>
> Johs
>
> > On 16. sep. 2015, at 14.42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> what went wrong?
> >> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
> >
> > ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
> >>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic
> was
> > issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
> > just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
> >
> > And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
> > threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more
> ugly.
> >
> >> Imo this should be a form where
> >
> > Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
> > and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> > three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
> > of good new slogans.
> >
> > Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
> > about 10-15-20 positions I think.
> >
> > For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting
> should
> > hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates
> person‘s
> > curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
> > want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
> > just to uncover current results.
> >
> >> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
> >
> > It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
> >
> > BR
> >
> > ermouth
>
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Cloud App Store
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
+1 on using Twitter for this
I can volunteer to make a proposal for the staging and follow-up by PMC -- that needs to be in place for this not to go wrong also
for AFS compliance, reports could be made on the mailing list.
Johs
> On 16. sep. 2015, at 14.42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> what went wrong?
>> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
>
> ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
>>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic was
> issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
> just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
>
> And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
> threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more ugly.
>
>> Imo this should be a form where
>
> Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
> and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
> of good new slogans.
>
> Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
> about 10-15-20 positions I think.
>
> For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting should
> hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates person‘s
> curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
> want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
> just to uncover current results.
>
>> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
>
> It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
>
> BR
>
> ermouth
Re: [VOTE-CANCELLED] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
as the vote is now canceled, I suggest to also close this thread as it does
have many different outcomes and not the one as it started.
I will open a new thread shortly with the list ermouth compiled (plus
additional ones maybe) and with some info about how to collaborate to find
a good solution.
Thanks for a bit patience and your efforts!
All the best
Andy
On 18 September 2015 at 13:53, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yeah, I hereby cancel the vote until we have the collaboration going for
> some serious proposals.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> Jan
> --
>
> > On 18 Sep 2015, at 06:57, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> >
> > Jan,
> > could you restart voting
> > or would you like to keep it open for more slogan entires, or run a
> discussion on the 10 present candidates first?
> > Johs
> >
> >> On 18. sep. 2015, at 06.52, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I add:
> >> 8: database for the web!!!
> >> 9: not just a database
> >> 10: Not only a database
> >>
> >> #8 +1: I think this is still the best option because it does not refer
> to a
> >> specific feature, and has the element/target which couchdb is all
> >> about/around
> >>
> >> Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may
> listen
> >> to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply
> don't
> >> have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
> >>
> >> Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
> >> - active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true
> for
> >> you too and the VC chair)
> >> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't
> get
> >> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
> >> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
> >> this/yours direction)
> >> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
> >> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
> >> don't like it
> >>
> >> But above all:
> >> - you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
> >> COULD BE!
> >>> We need constructive ideas
> >>
> >> I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
> >>
> >> 1. Data where you need it.
> >> 2. Restful freedom.
> >> 3. The database that replicates.
> >> 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
> >> 5. Keeps data closer.
> >> 6. Data wherever you need it.
> >> 7. Data that sync.
> >>
> >> Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
> >> proposal, it was the weakest (
> >>
> >> #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
> >>
> >> ermouth
> >
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [VOTE-CANCELLED] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Yeah, I hereby cancel the vote until we have the collaboration going for some serious proposals.
Thanks all!
Jan
--
> On 18 Sep 2015, at 06:57, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
> Jan,
> could you restart voting
> or would you like to keep it open for more slogan entires, or run a discussion on the 10 present candidates first?
> Johs
>
>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 06.52, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>>
>> I add:
>> 8: database for the web!!!
>> 9: not just a database
>> 10: Not only a database
>>
>> #8 +1: I think this is still the best option because it does not refer to a
>> specific feature, and has the element/target which couchdb is all
>> about/around
>>
>> Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may listen
>> to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply don't
>> have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
>>
>> Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
>> - active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true for
>> you too and the VC chair)
>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
>> this/yours direction)
>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
>> don't like it
>>
>> But above all:
>> - you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
>> COULD BE!
>>> We need constructive ideas
>>
>> I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
>>
>> 1. Data where you need it.
>> 2. Restful freedom.
>> 3. The database that replicates.
>> 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
>> 5. Keeps data closer.
>> 6. Data wherever you need it.
>> 7. Data that sync.
>>
>> Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
>> proposal, it was the weakest (
>>
>> #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
>>
>> ermouth
>
--
Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Jan,
could you restart voting
or would you like to keep it open for more slogan entires, or run a discussion on the 10 present candidates first?
Johs
> On 18. sep. 2015, at 06.52, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> I add:
> 8: database for the web!!!
> 9: not just a database
> 10: Not only a database
>
> #8 +1: I think this is still the best option because it does not refer to a
> specific feature, and has the element/target which couchdb is all
> about/around
>
> Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may listen
> to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply don't
> have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
>
> Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
> - active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true for
> you too and the VC chair)
> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
> this/yours direction)
> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
> don't like it
>
> But above all:
> - you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
> COULD BE!
>> We need constructive ideas
>
> I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
>
> 1. Data where you need it.
> 2. Restful freedom.
> 3. The database that replicates.
> 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
> 5. Keeps data closer.
> 6. Data wherever you need it.
> 7. Data that sync.
>
> Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
> proposal, it was the weakest (
>
> #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
>
> ermouth
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Nick Pavlica <li...@gmail.com>.
All,
I'm so happy that Jan and the PMC have finally took a hard stance on this
subject. I've always felt like CouchApps were overly coupled and a bad
idea from the start, and I'm happy to see them go. However, I understand
that we all have different needs and philosophies. For my business use
case, I've been waiting since 2010 for a built in clustering solution, and
I'm still waiting. As a small businessman I don't have the resources to
make a living, and build all the features that I want in CouchDB, other
DB's, frameworks, and languages that I use. So I understand the
frustration associated with that paradigm. I try to help as much as I can
in all of these projects, but really just have to live with what the
community as a whole decides to do. In some cases I spend allot of time
trying to contribute, as I did with the new CouchDB logo development, and
we still don't have a new logo pushed out yet. I saw something that was
important to me, and I did what I could to help improve the situation. And
that's what I think that Jan, and the PMC members are really asking for.
Thanks!
--Nick
On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>
> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
> list.
>
> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>
> Best regards,
> Joan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
> > To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
> > ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
> > issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
> > won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
> > solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
> > feature.
> >
> > The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
> > also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
> > evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
> > users
> > and not only.
> >
> > Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
> > team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
> > like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
> > will
> > continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
> > effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
> > what
> > such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
> >
> > [1]: Follow this thread:
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > - it's long, but has all the same answers.
> >
> > --
> > ,,,^..^,,,
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
> > >
> > > I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
> > > between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
> > > WHY/HOW/WHAT.
> > >
> > > I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
> > > CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
> > > see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
> > > tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
> > > Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
> > > of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
> > > for couchapps or not.
> > >
> > > The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
> > > I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
> > >
> > > Johs
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
> > >>> won't get
> > >>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
> > >>> them were
> > >>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
> > >>> of
> > >>> this/yours direction)
> > >>
> > >> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
> > >> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
> > >>> people
> > >>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
> > >>> people
> > >>> don't like it
> > >>
> > >> Watch me.
> > >
> >
>
Re: The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 4:26 AM, Miles Fidelman
<mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> - Whatever happened to geoCouch?
It's fine and AFAIK, @vmx is working on make it compatible with 2.0.
Cloudant didn't declare that feature they want to contribute. AFAIK,
again.
> - What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem. Are we seeing
> Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making their
> way back into the open source version of Couch?
We'll the other so far: Cloudant goes to be CouchDB 2.0 + extra
features, which they cannot open source now (like chained map/reduce),
or which we cannot include by default (like FTS because of Java). The
general direction in 2.0 era is to make CouchDB scale and extend
right, and find a balance between needs of regular and enterprise
users on that domain.
--
,,,^..^,,,
Re: The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Miles,
the question you are asking about IMB-supported features was answered a year ago according to http://www.informationweek.com/big-data/software-platforms/ibm-cloudant-will-power-local-data-centers-apple-apps/d/d-id/1316965 <http://www.informationweek.com/big-data/software-platforms/ibm-cloudant-will-power-local-data-centers-apple-apps/d/d-id/1316965>
An confirmation that this is the case from Cloudant wold be good.
"CouchDB 2.0 is essentially the code that Cloudant already runs, and once 2.0 is out, the Cloudant team will be working directly against Apache repositories and all of our bug-fixing and improvements will go directly to CouchDB," said Bob Newson, a senior engineer at Cloudant who is a member of the Apache CouchDB Project Management Committee, in a phone interview with InformationWeek. "Our thrust over the last year has been to consolidate the code bases because we don't want forks, and the only things in Cloudant that won't be in the Apache offering will be the proprietary bits we add on to manage the service."
Your question "Are we seeing Cloudant diverge from Couch" is as interesting to me to get an answer to as the comment I am getting on Jan's "watch me".
I really need to see a clear policy on this.
Johs
> On 20. sep. 2015, at 03.26, Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>
> I just spent a little time comparing "Cloudant Local" with CouchDB - and in addition to ongoing support for CouchApps, it seems like Cloudant Local supports geospatial functions as well. Which leads me to wonder two things:
> - Whatever happened to geoCouch?
> - What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem. Are we seeing Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making their way back into the open source version of Couch?
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
>
> Joan Touzet wrote:
>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>
>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>> list.
>>
>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Joan
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>> feature.
>>>
>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>> users
>>> and not only.
>>>
>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>>> will
>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>> what
>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>
>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>
>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>
>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>
>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>
>>>> Johs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>> them were
>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>> Watch me.
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]
Posted by Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net>.
I just spent a little time comparing "Cloudant Local" with CouchDB - and
in addition to ongoing support for CouchApps, it seems like Cloudant
Local supports geospatial functions as well. Which leads me to wonder
two things:
- Whatever happened to geoCouch?
- What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem. Are we seeing
Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making
their way back into the open source version of Couch?
Miles Fidelman
Joan Touzet wrote:
> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>
> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
> list.
>
> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>
> Best regards,
> Joan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>> feature.
>>
>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>> users
>> and not only.
>>
>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>> will
>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>> what
>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>
>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>
>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>
>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>
>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>
>>> Johs
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>> won't get
>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>> them were
>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>> of
>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>> people
>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>> people
>>>>> don't like it
>>>> Watch me.
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Robert,
> All these endpoints will be in CouchDB 2.0.
> In the event that _rewrite, _update, _show and _list become an optional add-on, Cloudant will deploy that add-on to all our clusters.
This clarification was very much appreciated.
Respectfully,
Johs
> On 21. sep. 2015, at 17.25, Robert Samuel Newson <rn...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Johs,
>
> I think you’ve taken my reply out of context, but I can see that I’ve forced you to read between the lines because I didn’t address the topic directly.
>
> I also think the discussion of couchapps does not belong on the marketing@ mailing list. I feel that marketing@ should be exclusively about marketing topics, not development (current or future).
>
> It is a fact that no development has been done on couchapps in years, it is also a fact that couchapps are limited in their abilities. I share Jason’s concerns that it’s a bad experience to achieve something with couchapps as they exist today only to run into a limit, with no workaround.
>
> I define the couchapp support in CouchDB as these endpoints (and only these); _rewrite, _update, _show and _list. These are each user-programmable server-side endpoints, stored within a design document.
>
> I see no reason to drop those features. All I believe the PMC is saying is that couchapps will not become more powerful than these endpoints unless some individual or group steps up to do it; the core development team are explicitly saying that they are not working on it.
>
> All these endpoints will be in CouchDB 2.0.
>
> Now, to Cloudant. Cloudant is typically used in a database-as-a-service mode, where customers have a front end and an application middle tier; ergo they do not use the four couchapp endpoints much (_rewrite for its part in virtual hosting notwithstanding) but we have customers, at various scales, using couchapp functionality and we plan to continue supporting those users.
>
> In the event that _rewrite, _update, _show and _list become an optional add-on, Cloudant will deploy that add-on to all our clusters.
>
> Regards,
> Robert Newson
> CouchDB PMC and IBM Cloudant Senior Database Engineer
>
>
>> On 21 Sep 2015, at 03:30, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Robert,
>> for what I regard as a good closing statement for this thread.
>>
>> In my environment IBMs support has a very good brand rub-off effect and the support for couchapps with hosting providers is what I think is important to recruit new developers to Couch.
>> I will pick up the dialogue directly with Cloudant as to what we can expect specifically on couchapp support going forward.
>>
>> Johs
>> - looking forward to an Erlang programmer eager to pursue Couch app server functionality respond to the welcome extended to her or him.
>>
>>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 15.28, Robert Newson <rn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Cloudant versus couchdb the plan is still code convergence. 2.0 is very close imo and considerable effort has occurred within Cloudant to prepare to switch to it in our production environment.
>>>
>>> As for what is staying Cloudant only, it's things like geospatial, the multi-tenancy and the automation, monitoring and alerting that are needed to deliver a service. The database and its ability to replicate and form fault tolerant clusters is open source and remaining so. Cloudant will work directly on the asf repositories that now exist for future enhancements.
>>>
>>> B.
>>>
>>>> On 20 Sep 2015, at 09:49, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Joan,
>>>> for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on this.
>>>> It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang programmers, hold our horses.
>>>> I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no one to do the development work on the team.
>>>>
>>>> Just to sum my take-away:
>>>> The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang programming
>>>> We should not count on even the present functionality for "Couchapps" being present in future releases
>>>>
>>>> To #1 I attribute these statements:
>>>>> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>
>>>>>> Alexander Shorin September 19, 2015
>>>>
>>>>>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and to #2 I look at:
>>>> Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's
>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>> people
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>> Alex'
>>>>>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is not about the nuances anymore, it is about 100% of the PMC backing this.
>>>>
>>>> For me it means leaving the community for now.
>>>> It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has been extended.
>>>> I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to contribute at some other node.
>>>>
>>>> My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
>>>>
>>>> Johs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>>>>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>>>>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>>>>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>>>>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>>>>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>>>>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>>>>> list.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>>>>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>>>>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>>>>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>>>>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Joan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>>>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>>>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>>>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>>>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>>>>> feature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>>>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>>>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>>>>> users
>>>>>> and not only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>>>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Johs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>>>>> them were
>>>>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Watch me.
>>>>
>>
>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Robert Samuel Newson <rn...@apache.org>.
Johs,
I think you’ve taken my reply out of context, but I can see that I’ve forced you to read between the lines because I didn’t address the topic directly.
I also think the discussion of couchapps does not belong on the marketing@ mailing list. I feel that marketing@ should be exclusively about marketing topics, not development (current or future).
It is a fact that no development has been done on couchapps in years, it is also a fact that couchapps are limited in their abilities. I share Jason’s concerns that it’s a bad experience to achieve something with couchapps as they exist today only to run into a limit, with no workaround.
I define the couchapp support in CouchDB as these endpoints (and only these); _rewrite, _update, _show and _list. These are each user-programmable server-side endpoints, stored within a design document.
I see no reason to drop those features. All I believe the PMC is saying is that couchapps will not become more powerful than these endpoints unless some individual or group steps up to do it; the core development team are explicitly saying that they are not working on it.
All these endpoints will be in CouchDB 2.0.
Now, to Cloudant. Cloudant is typically used in a database-as-a-service mode, where customers have a front end and an application middle tier; ergo they do not use the four couchapp endpoints much (_rewrite for its part in virtual hosting notwithstanding) but we have customers, at various scales, using couchapp functionality and we plan to continue supporting those users.
In the event that _rewrite, _update, _show and _list become an optional add-on, Cloudant will deploy that add-on to all our clusters.
Regards,
Robert Newson
CouchDB PMC and IBM Cloudant Senior Database Engineer
> On 21 Sep 2015, at 03:30, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Robert,
> for what I regard as a good closing statement for this thread.
>
> In my environment IBMs support has a very good brand rub-off effect and the support for couchapps with hosting providers is what I think is important to recruit new developers to Couch.
> I will pick up the dialogue directly with Cloudant as to what we can expect specifically on couchapp support going forward.
>
> Johs
> - looking forward to an Erlang programmer eager to pursue Couch app server functionality respond to the welcome extended to her or him.
>
>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 15.28, Robert Newson <rn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Cloudant versus couchdb the plan is still code convergence. 2.0 is very close imo and considerable effort has occurred within Cloudant to prepare to switch to it in our production environment.
>>
>> As for what is staying Cloudant only, it's things like geospatial, the multi-tenancy and the automation, monitoring and alerting that are needed to deliver a service. The database and its ability to replicate and form fault tolerant clusters is open source and remaining so. Cloudant will work directly on the asf repositories that now exist for future enhancements.
>>
>> B.
>>
>>> On 20 Sep 2015, at 09:49, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Joan,
>>> for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on this.
>>> It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang programmers, hold our horses.
>>> I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no one to do the development work on the team.
>>>
>>> Just to sum my take-away:
>>> The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang programming
>>> We should not count on even the present functionality for "Couchapps" being present in future releases
>>>
>>> To #1 I attribute these statements:
>>>> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>
>>>>> Alexander Shorin September 19, 2015
>>>
>>>>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
>>>
>>>
>>> and to #2 I look at:
>>> Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's
>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>> people
>>>
>>> and
>>> Alex'
>>>>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is not about the nuances anymore, it is about 100% of the PMC backing this.
>>>
>>> For me it means leaving the community for now.
>>> It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has been extended.
>>> I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to contribute at some other node.
>>>
>>> My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
>>>
>>> Johs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>>>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>>>
>>>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>>>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>>>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>>>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>>>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>>>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>>>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>>>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>>>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>>>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Joan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>>>> feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>>>> users
>>>>> and not only.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>>>>> will
>>>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>> what
>>>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Johs
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>>>> them were
>>>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Watch me.
>>>
>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Thanks Robert,
for what I regard as a good closing statement for this thread.
In my environment IBMs support has a very good brand rub-off effect and the support for couchapps with hosting providers is what I think is important to recruit new developers to Couch.
I will pick up the dialogue directly with Cloudant as to what we can expect specifically on couchapp support going forward.
Johs
- looking forward to an Erlang programmer eager to pursue Couch app server functionality respond to the welcome extended to her or him.
> On 20. sep. 2015, at 15.28, Robert Newson <rn...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Cloudant versus couchdb the plan is still code convergence. 2.0 is very close imo and considerable effort has occurred within Cloudant to prepare to switch to it in our production environment.
>
> As for what is staying Cloudant only, it's things like geospatial, the multi-tenancy and the automation, monitoring and alerting that are needed to deliver a service. The database and its ability to replicate and form fault tolerant clusters is open source and remaining so. Cloudant will work directly on the asf repositories that now exist for future enhancements.
>
> B.
>
>> On 20 Sep 2015, at 09:49, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Joan,
>> for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on this.
>> It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang programmers, hold our horses.
>> I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no one to do the development work on the team.
>>
>> Just to sum my take-away:
>> The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang programming
>> We should not count on even the present functionality for "Couchapps" being present in future releases
>>
>> To #1 I attribute these statements:
>>> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>
>>>> Alexander Shorin September 19, 2015
>>
>>>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
>>
>>
>> and to #2 I look at:
>> Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's
>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>> people
>>
>> and
>> Alex'
>>>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>
>>
>> Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is not about the nuances anymore, it is about 100% of the PMC backing this.
>>
>> For me it means leaving the community for now.
>> It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has been extended.
>> I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to contribute at some other node.
>>
>> My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
>>
>> Johs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>>
>>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>>> list.
>>>
>>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Joan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>>> feature.
>>>>
>>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>>> users
>>>> and not only.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>>>> will
>>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>> what
>>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>>
>>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Johs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>>> them were
>>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Watch me.
>>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Robert Newson <rn...@apache.org>.
On Cloudant versus couchdb the plan is still code convergence. 2.0 is very close imo and considerable effort has occurred within Cloudant to prepare to switch to it in our production environment.
As for what is staying Cloudant only, it's things like geospatial, the multi-tenancy and the automation, monitoring and alerting that are needed to deliver a service. The database and its ability to replicate and form fault tolerant clusters is open source and remaining so. Cloudant will work directly on the asf repositories that now exist for future enhancements.
B.
> On 20 Sep 2015, at 09:49, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Joan,
> for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on this.
> It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang programmers, hold our horses.
> I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no one to do the development work on the team.
>
> Just to sum my take-away:
> The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang programming
> We should not count on even the present functionality for "Couchapps" being present in future releases
>
> To #1 I attribute these statements:
>> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>
>>> Alexander Shorin September 19, 2015
>
>>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
>
>
> and to #2 I look at:
> Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's
>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>> people
>
> and
> Alex'
>>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>
>
> Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is not about the nuances anymore, it is about 100% of the PMC backing this.
>
> For me it means leaving the community for now.
> It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has been extended.
> I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to contribute at some other node.
>
> My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
>
> Johs
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>
>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>> list.
>>
>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Joan
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>> feature.
>>>
>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>> users
>>> and not only.
>>>
>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>>> will
>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>> what
>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>
>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>
>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>
>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>
>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>
>>>> Johs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>> them were
>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>>
>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>>
>>>>> Watch me.
>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Thanks Joan,
for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on this.
It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang programmers, hold our horses.
I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no one to do the development work on the team.
Just to sum my take-away:
The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang programming
We should not count on even the present functionality for "Couchapps" being present in future releases
To #1 I attribute these statements:
> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>> Alexander Shorin September 19, 2015
>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
and to #2 I look at:
Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's
>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>> people
and
Alex'
>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is not about the nuances anymore, it is about 100% of the PMC backing this.
For me it means leaving the community for now.
It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has been extended.
I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to contribute at some other node.
My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
Johs
> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>
> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
> list.
>
> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>
> Best regards,
> Joan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>> feature.
>>
>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>> users
>> and not only.
>>
>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
>> will
>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>> what
>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>
>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>
>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>
>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>
>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>
>>> Johs
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>> won't get
>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>> them were
>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>> of
>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>
>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>> people
>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>> people
>>>>> don't like it
>>>>
>>>> Watch me.
>>>
>>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
list.
If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
Best regards,
Joan
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>
> Hi John,
>
> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
> feature.
>
> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
> users
> and not only.
>
> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps
> will
> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
> what
> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>
> [1]: Follow this thread:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> > Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
> >
> > I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
> > between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
> > WHY/HOW/WHAT.
> >
> > I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
> > CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
> > see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
> > tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
> > Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
> > of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
> > for couchapps or not.
> >
> > The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
> > I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
> >
> > Johs
> >
> >
> >> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
> >>> won't get
> >>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
> >>> them were
> >>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
> >>> of
> >>> this/yours direction)
> >>
> >> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
> >> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
> >>
> >>
> >>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
> >>> people
> >>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
> >>> people
> >>> don't like it
> >>
> >> Watch me.
> >
>
Re: The future of couchapps
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
Hi John,
The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
feature.
The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB users
and not only.
Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
like to take this duty on his/her shoulders. Otherwise CouchApps will
continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say what
such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
[1]: Follow this thread:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
- it's long, but has all the same answers.
--
,,,^..^,,,
On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>
> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>
> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to. Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future for couchapps or not.
>
> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>
> Johs
>
>
>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
>>> this/yours direction)
>>
>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>
>>
>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
>>> don't like it
>>
>> Watch me.
>
The future of couchapps
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT.
I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to. Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future for couchapps or not.
The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
Johs
> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
>> this/yours direction)
>
> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>
>
>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
>> don't like it
>
> Watch me.
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
>
>
> > Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may listen
> > to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply
> don't
> > have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
>
> No, it is exactly in line with the Apache Way, those who do the work get
> to decide where the direction is going. The Apache Way is decidedly NOT
> some folks who prettyplease want features, but don’t feel compelled to
> build what they want.
>
>
>
Sorry, I was sure I read something about it ... here it is:
>> QUOTING http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html
>>2.1. Users
>>The most important participants in the project are people who use our
software.
>>
>>Users can participate by talking about the project, providing feedback,
and helping others. This can be done at the ASF or elsewhere, and includes
being active on the user mailing list, third-party support forums, blogs,
and social media. Users who participate in this way automatically become
contributors.
Probably I misunderstood the meaning of this... so thanks for your
clarifying answer!
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
>> 8: database for the web!!!
> That I like
Glad you like it :)
> we can consider you as hostile against the CouchDB project and treat you
accordingly.
Your words are the only hostile things imho.. Anyway my post was much more
general and I was not asking of pushing Couchapps! But, even if actually
Smileupps can't contribute also with erlang code, I really hope in the
future we can afford to push some of our devs in the team too. So what I
was asking with my previous post was to not close the door to couchapps for
the future (e.g. by not mentioning or denying their usefulness). Is it
possible?
> CouchApp 2.0 ... I am still very eager to work on it, but RIGHT NOW, we
don’t have the resources as the project
I'm glad you say this. This reflects exactly our current position too :(
but I still hope in the future we can afford to work together on this.
Best
2015-09-18 13:52 GMT+02:00 Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>:
> > 8: database for the web!!!
> That I like.
>
> No, it is exactly in line with the Apache Way, those who do the work get
> to decide where the direction is going. The Apache Way is decidedly NOT
> some folks who prettyplease want features, but don’t feel compelled to
> build what they want.
>
>
> > Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
> > - active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true
> for
> > you too and the VC chair)
>
> This is always true, I don’t see how this bears specially on this case.
>
>
> > - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
> > in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
> > already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
> > this/yours direction)
>
> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and
> I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>
>
> > - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
> > like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
> > don't like it
>
> Watch me.
>
>
> > But above all:
> > - you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
> > COULD BE!
>
> 1. We can always go in a new direction without erasing what it had been in
> the past. This happens all the time. And we’ve done it a bunch of times.
> CouchDB is so unique in what it does that it took us a couple of years
> collectively to understand what the nature of it is.
>
> 2. Of course I cannot erase what CouchDB COULD BE, but CouchDB can only be
> what people are working on, and nobody is working on CouchApps, so I’m
> going with a vision that is backed up by the technology we have and working
> on.
>
> * * *
>
> I repeat: You won’t hold the project ransom for something you want, if you
> are not prepared to do the hard work of making your vision a reality.
>
> * * *
>
> And as I’ve outlined a number of times, I have a pretty good idea of how
> the Couch/Appserver thing could look like in the future, and it’d be 10000%
> better than what CouchApp has ever been, and I am still very eager to work
> on it, but RIGHT NOW, we don’t have the resources as the project, and we
> should focus on the the thing that makes CouchDB RELEVANT in the current
> computing ecosystem, not what a bunch of far-out developers find
> interesting.
>
> All major platform vendors today (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple and
> Amazon) have a Backend-as-a-Service type offering with various degrees of
> sync/offline working.
>
> CouchDB + related projects are THE ONLY OPEN SOURCE alternative in this
> game, and it is a MASSIVE opportunity for us, not some esoteric way to do
> db/app-server stuff, that is hard to understand and that has (relatively)
> barely any users. We can make a SIGNIFICANT impact on the computing
> landscape of tomorrow, and I’m not interested in wasting that opportunity.
>
> Again, the project doesn’t have the resources to develop this further, and
> once we do, we have a fairly solid idea of how CouchApp 2.0 *could* look
> like, but RIGHT NOW, and probably EVEN THEN, this won’t be the major
> differentiator for a World Class Database System™.
>
> We are trying to put CouchDB on the path to success again, against fierce
> competition with hundreds of millions of dollars of VC funding that goes
> into engineering and marketing. We must focus on how we can make a
> difference with our limited resources in THAT CONTEXT, and an esoteric app
> programming platform is NOT it.
>
> * * *
>
> One final time:
>
> CouchDB is Open Source, if you want to see it going into a particularly
> direction, you are VERY welcome to do the work and push things forward and
> you will receive all the support you can imagine.
>
> If you continue to try to push the project into a different direction by
> not getting to work, but by just wasting the time of the people who spend
> their time on moving CouchDB forward, then we can consider you as hostile
> against the CouchDB project and treat you accordingly.
>
> This is isn’t just my personal opinion, I have the backup of the entire
> CouchDB PMC and the ASF Board. If you have any issues with that, I suggest
> you come to terms with the situation, or get to work as outlined above.
>
>
These kind of words are hostile, not surely my words!
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
> >> We need constructive ideas
> >
> > I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
> >
> > 1. Data where you need it.
> > 2. Restful freedom.
> > 3. The database that replicates.
> > 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
> > 5. Keeps data closer.
> > 6. Data wherever you need it.
> > 7. Data that sync.
> >
> > Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
> > proposal, it was the weakest (
> >
> > #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
> >
> > ermouth
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Cloud App Store
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
> On 18 Sep 2015, at 06:52, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> I add:
> 8: database for the web!!!
That I like.
> 9: not just a database
> 10: Not only a database
>
> #8 +1: I think this is still the best option because it does not refer to a
> specific feature, and has the element/target which couchdb is all
> about/around
>
> Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may listen
> to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply don't
> have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
No, it is exactly in line with the Apache Way, those who do the work get to decide where the direction is going. The Apache Way is decidedly NOT some folks who prettyplease want features, but don’t feel compelled to build what they want.
> Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
> - active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true for
> you too and the VC chair)
This is always true, I don’t see how this bears specially on this case.
> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
> this/yours direction)
In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
> don't like it
Watch me.
> But above all:
> - you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
> COULD BE!
1. We can always go in a new direction without erasing what it had been in the past. This happens all the time. And we’ve done it a bunch of times. CouchDB is so unique in what it does that it took us a couple of years collectively to understand what the nature of it is.
2. Of course I cannot erase what CouchDB COULD BE, but CouchDB can only be what people are working on, and nobody is working on CouchApps, so I’m going with a vision that is backed up by the technology we have and working on.
* * *
I repeat: You won’t hold the project ransom for something you want, if you are not prepared to do the hard work of making your vision a reality.
* * *
And as I’ve outlined a number of times, I have a pretty good idea of how the Couch/Appserver thing could look like in the future, and it’d be 10000% better than what CouchApp has ever been, and I am still very eager to work on it, but RIGHT NOW, we don’t have the resources as the project, and we should focus on the the thing that makes CouchDB RELEVANT in the current computing ecosystem, not what a bunch of far-out developers find interesting.
All major platform vendors today (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple and Amazon) have a Backend-as-a-Service type offering with various degrees of sync/offline working.
CouchDB + related projects are THE ONLY OPEN SOURCE alternative in this game, and it is a MASSIVE opportunity for us, not some esoteric way to do db/app-server stuff, that is hard to understand and that has (relatively) barely any users. We can make a SIGNIFICANT impact on the computing landscape of tomorrow, and I’m not interested in wasting that opportunity.
Again, the project doesn’t have the resources to develop this further, and once we do, we have a fairly solid idea of how CouchApp 2.0 *could* look like, but RIGHT NOW, and probably EVEN THEN, this won’t be the major differentiator for a World Class Database System™.
We are trying to put CouchDB on the path to success again, against fierce competition with hundreds of millions of dollars of VC funding that goes into engineering and marketing. We must focus on how we can make a difference with our limited resources in THAT CONTEXT, and an esoteric app programming platform is NOT it.
* * *
One final time:
CouchDB is Open Source, if you want to see it going into a particularly direction, you are VERY welcome to do the work and push things forward and you will receive all the support you can imagine.
If you continue to try to push the project into a different direction by not getting to work, but by just wasting the time of the people who spend their time on moving CouchDB forward, then we can consider you as hostile against the CouchDB project and treat you accordingly.
This is isn’t just my personal opinion, I have the backup of the entire CouchDB PMC and the ASF Board. If you have any issues with that, I suggest you come to terms with the situation, or get to work as outlined above.
Best
Jan
--
>> We need constructive ideas
>
> I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
>
> 1. Data where you need it.
> 2. Restful freedom.
> 3. The database that replicates.
> 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
> 5. Keeps data closer.
> 6. Data wherever you need it.
> 7. Data that sync.
>
> Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
> proposal, it was the weakest (
>
> #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
>
> ermouth
--
Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
I add:
8: database for the web!!!
9: not just a database
10: Not only a database
#8 +1: I think this is still the best option because it does not refer to a
specific feature, and has the element/target which couchdb is all
about/around
Respectfully Jan, for direction in establishing the future you may listen
to yourself and/or active erlang devs only, but this direction simply don't
have community consensus. And this conflicts with the apache way!!!
Also imho it's a wrong approach due to some considerations:
- active devs are active now... who knows until when? (and this is true for
you too and the VC chair)
- you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover won't get
in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of them were
already active in the past, but they chose to left just because of
this/yours direction)
- you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of people
like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few people
don't like it
But above all:
- you can't erase what Couchdb has been, what it is actually and what it
COULD BE!
> We need constructive ideas
I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
1. Data where you need it.
2. Restful freedom.
3. The database that replicates.
4. Sync. Shard. REST.
5. Keeps data closer.
6. Data wherever you need it.
7. Data that sync.
Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
proposal, it was the weakest (
#1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
ermouth
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
thank you J Ermouth
On 16 September 2015 at 23:20, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We need constructive ideas
>
> I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
>
> 1. Data where you need it.
> 2. Restful freedom.
> 3. The database that replicates.
> 4. Sync. Shard. REST.
> 5. Keeps data closer.
> 6. Data wherever you need it.
> 7. Data that sync.
>
> Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
> proposal, it was the weakest (
>
> #1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
>
> ermouth
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by ermouth <er...@gmail.com>.
> We need constructive ideas
I picked up options, spread among previous posts. There are 10 of them:
1. Data where you need it.
2. Restful freedom.
3. The database that replicates.
4. Sync. Shard. REST.
5. Keeps data closer.
6. Data wherever you need it.
7. Data that sync.
Two more, that are app-related, are dropped, also I dropped my own
proposal, it was the weakest (
#1 and #2 are equal to Jan‘s list.
ermouth
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
all, please stop with this nonsense. We will definitely not use a Slogan
including "kickass". We need constructive ideas ... not ironic statements.
Thank you
All the best
Andy
On 16 September 2015 at 22:55, Harald Kisch <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Slogan #3: "kickass database for the future"
>
> +1
>
> harald
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
> > Fair and square challenge, Jan
> > I also appreciate the emotional energy and don't want to be in the
> > crossfire, but let it keep its stated direction: "kickass database for
> the
> > future"
> >
> > Johs
> >
> > PS
> > Since this still is the VOTE thread..
> >
> > +1
> > Slogan #3: "kickass database for the future"
> >
> >
> > > On 16. sep. 2015, at 21.06, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > For the CouchApp lovers in this thread:
> > >
> > > The code that powers CouchApps in CouchDB hasn’t been touched for half
> a
> > decade. It has no maintainers, it is buggy, lacks features, and nobody
> who
> > is active on the project has any interest in getting involved.
> > >
> > > We are here to discuss the future of CouchDB and it is evident that
> > CouchApp-like / Webserver/Appserver/Database-hybrid features are not it,
> > regardless of how excited or invested you are.
> > >
> > > If you REALLY REALLY care about this particular feature set, you will
> > have to step and MAKE IT WORK in CouchDB. That means getting into the
> dirty
> > C, Erlang and JS parts of CouchDB and making this ready for the future.
> If
> > you say, well, it isn’t so much work as I say, great! Get cracking.
> > >
> > > If you can’t get together and push this forward, the project will go
> > with a direction that its direct contributors are happy to work on, to
> > maintain, fix and improve. And then any discussion about how to maybe
> > phrase CouchDB’s marketing message in a way that CouchApps are still hot
> > are totally NOT where this is going.
> > >
> > > You won’t be willing the project into submission for you pet features
> by
> > teaming up on these discussions as a very vocal (dare I say attention
> > vampire) minority, while the rest of us are quietly trying to ship a kick
> > as database for the future.
> > >
> > > This is open source, we all get a say in where we want to see things
> > going, but at the end of the day, you will have to put in the elbow
> grease
> > to make things happen like you want them. We are liberal with giving out
> > committership, there are literally no barriers to entry, except for a
> > half-decade old pile of technical debt that nobody else dares to touch.
> > >
> > > *drops mic*
> > >
> > > *picks up mic again*
> > >
> > > PS: before you consider turning this into an ad-hominem attack, or some
> > insinuation that I am abusing my PMC Chair position to push through my
> > personal agenda or vendetta against you and your loved ones, or any of
> this
> > sort of crap (that has come up before), keep it to yourself, thanks.
> > >
> > >> On 16 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> what went wrong?
> > >>> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
> > >>
> > >> ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of
> cluttering
> > >>>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic
> > was
> > >> issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all
> others
> > >> just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this
> tool.
> > >>
> > >> And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into
> > several
> > >> threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more
> > ugly.
> > >>
> > >>> Imo this should be a form where
> > >>
> > >> Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts
> length
> > >> and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> > >> three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a
> > lot
> > >> of good new slogans.
> > >>
> > >> Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list
> –
> > >> about 10-15-20 positions I think.
> > >>
> > >> For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting
> > should
> > >> hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates
> > person‘s
> > >> curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to
> vote,
> > >> want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random
> clicks
> > >> just to uncover current results.
> > >>
> > >>> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
> > >>
> > >> It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
> > >>
> > >> BR
> > >>
> > >> ermouth
> > >
> > > --
> > > Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> > > http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> > >
> >
> >
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Harald Kisch <ha...@gmail.com>.
Slogan #3: "kickass database for the future"
+1
harald
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Fair and square challenge, Jan
> I also appreciate the emotional energy and don't want to be in the
> crossfire, but let it keep its stated direction: "kickass database for the
> future"
>
> Johs
>
> PS
> Since this still is the VOTE thread..
>
> +1
> Slogan #3: "kickass database for the future"
>
>
> > On 16. sep. 2015, at 21.06, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > For the CouchApp lovers in this thread:
> >
> > The code that powers CouchApps in CouchDB hasn’t been touched for half a
> decade. It has no maintainers, it is buggy, lacks features, and nobody who
> is active on the project has any interest in getting involved.
> >
> > We are here to discuss the future of CouchDB and it is evident that
> CouchApp-like / Webserver/Appserver/Database-hybrid features are not it,
> regardless of how excited or invested you are.
> >
> > If you REALLY REALLY care about this particular feature set, you will
> have to step and MAKE IT WORK in CouchDB. That means getting into the dirty
> C, Erlang and JS parts of CouchDB and making this ready for the future. If
> you say, well, it isn’t so much work as I say, great! Get cracking.
> >
> > If you can’t get together and push this forward, the project will go
> with a direction that its direct contributors are happy to work on, to
> maintain, fix and improve. And then any discussion about how to maybe
> phrase CouchDB’s marketing message in a way that CouchApps are still hot
> are totally NOT where this is going.
> >
> > You won’t be willing the project into submission for you pet features by
> teaming up on these discussions as a very vocal (dare I say attention
> vampire) minority, while the rest of us are quietly trying to ship a kick
> as database for the future.
> >
> > This is open source, we all get a say in where we want to see things
> going, but at the end of the day, you will have to put in the elbow grease
> to make things happen like you want them. We are liberal with giving out
> committership, there are literally no barriers to entry, except for a
> half-decade old pile of technical debt that nobody else dares to touch.
> >
> > *drops mic*
> >
> > *picks up mic again*
> >
> > PS: before you consider turning this into an ad-hominem attack, or some
> insinuation that I am abusing my PMC Chair position to push through my
> personal agenda or vendetta against you and your loved ones, or any of this
> sort of crap (that has come up before), keep it to yourself, thanks.
> >
> >> On 16 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> what went wrong?
> >>> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
> >>
> >> ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
> >>>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic
> was
> >> issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
> >> just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
> >>
> >> And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into
> several
> >> threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more
> ugly.
> >>
> >>> Imo this should be a form where
> >>
> >> Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
> >> and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> >> three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a
> lot
> >> of good new slogans.
> >>
> >> Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
> >> about 10-15-20 positions I think.
> >>
> >> For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting
> should
> >> hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates
> person‘s
> >> curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
> >> want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
> >> just to uncover current results.
> >>
> >>> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
> >>
> >> It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
> >>
> >> BR
> >>
> >> ermouth
> >
> > --
> > Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> > http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Fair and square challenge, Jan
I also appreciate the emotional energy and don't want to be in the crossfire, but let it keep its stated direction: "kickass database for the future"
Johs
PS
Since this still is the VOTE thread..
+1
Slogan #3: "kickass database for the future"
> On 16. sep. 2015, at 21.06, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> For the CouchApp lovers in this thread:
>
> The code that powers CouchApps in CouchDB hasn’t been touched for half a decade. It has no maintainers, it is buggy, lacks features, and nobody who is active on the project has any interest in getting involved.
>
> We are here to discuss the future of CouchDB and it is evident that CouchApp-like / Webserver/Appserver/Database-hybrid features are not it, regardless of how excited or invested you are.
>
> If you REALLY REALLY care about this particular feature set, you will have to step and MAKE IT WORK in CouchDB. That means getting into the dirty C, Erlang and JS parts of CouchDB and making this ready for the future. If you say, well, it isn’t so much work as I say, great! Get cracking.
>
> If you can’t get together and push this forward, the project will go with a direction that its direct contributors are happy to work on, to maintain, fix and improve. And then any discussion about how to maybe phrase CouchDB’s marketing message in a way that CouchApps are still hot are totally NOT where this is going.
>
> You won’t be willing the project into submission for you pet features by teaming up on these discussions as a very vocal (dare I say attention vampire) minority, while the rest of us are quietly trying to ship a kick as database for the future.
>
> This is open source, we all get a say in where we want to see things going, but at the end of the day, you will have to put in the elbow grease to make things happen like you want them. We are liberal with giving out committership, there are literally no barriers to entry, except for a half-decade old pile of technical debt that nobody else dares to touch.
>
> *drops mic*
>
> *picks up mic again*
>
> PS: before you consider turning this into an ad-hominem attack, or some insinuation that I am abusing my PMC Chair position to push through my personal agenda or vendetta against you and your loved ones, or any of this sort of crap (that has come up before), keep it to yourself, thanks.
>
>> On 16 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> what went wrong?
>>> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
>>
>> ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
>>>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic was
>> issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
>> just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
>>
>> And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
>> threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more ugly.
>>
>>> Imo this should be a form where
>>
>> Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
>> and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
>> three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
>> of good new slogans.
>>
>> Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
>> about 10-15-20 positions I think.
>>
>> For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting should
>> hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates person‘s
>> curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
>> want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
>> just to uncover current results.
>>
>>> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
>>
>> It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
>>
>> BR
>>
>> ermouth
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
For the CouchApp lovers in this thread:
The code that powers CouchApps in CouchDB hasn’t been touched for half a decade. It has no maintainers, it is buggy, lacks features, and nobody who is active on the project has any interest in getting involved.
We are here to discuss the future of CouchDB and it is evident that CouchApp-like / Webserver/Appserver/Database-hybrid features are not it, regardless of how excited or invested you are.
If you REALLY REALLY care about this particular feature set, you will have to step and MAKE IT WORK in CouchDB. That means getting into the dirty C, Erlang and JS parts of CouchDB and making this ready for the future. If you say, well, it isn’t so much work as I say, great! Get cracking.
If you can’t get together and push this forward, the project will go with a direction that its direct contributors are happy to work on, to maintain, fix and improve. And then any discussion about how to maybe phrase CouchDB’s marketing message in a way that CouchApps are still hot are totally NOT where this is going.
You won’t be willing the project into submission for you pet features by teaming up on these discussions as a very vocal (dare I say attention vampire) minority, while the rest of us are quietly trying to ship a kick as database for the future.
This is open source, we all get a say in where we want to see things going, but at the end of the day, you will have to put in the elbow grease to make things happen like you want them. We are liberal with giving out committership, there are literally no barriers to entry, except for a half-decade old pile of technical debt that nobody else dares to touch.
*drops mic*
*picks up mic again*
PS: before you consider turning this into an ad-hominem attack, or some insinuation that I am abusing my PMC Chair position to push through my personal agenda or vendetta against you and your loved ones, or any of this sort of crap (that has come up before), keep it to yourself, thanks.
> On 16 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> what went wrong?
>> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
>
> ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
>>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic was
> issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
> just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
>
> And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
> threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more ugly.
>
>> Imo this should be a form where
>
> Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
> and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
> three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
> of good new slogans.
>
> Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
> about 10-15-20 positions I think.
>
> For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting should
> hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates person‘s
> curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
> want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
> just to uncover current results.
>
>> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
>
> It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
>
> BR
>
> ermouth
--
Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by ermouth <er...@gmail.com>.
> what went wrong?
> how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
ML is unsuitable – low engagement, no navigation, zillions of cluttering
>>>> in replies, inability to participate if you subscribed after topic was
issued and so on. Only flaming enthuziasts can use this tool, all others
just pass by. Apache better understand it, enforcing usage of this tool.
And even for enthuziasts it‘s hard to track topics, splitted into several
threads. You can only do it only in inbox – all web UI are even more ugly.
> Imo this should be a form where
Form seems too much for slogan. Twitter is enough good, restricts length
and provides perfect engagement. If you ask on twi (and do it at least
three times taking in account timezones), I think you could receive a lot
of good new slogans.
Since slogans all are short, it wouldn‘t be hard to create short list –
about 10-15-20 positions I think.
For final poll there exist a lot of online instruments. Also voting should
hide poll results for person until he or she votes – it titillates person‘s
curiosity and motivates to make a click. Option ‘I do not want to vote,
want to see results’ is also good to ensure you‘ll have no random clicks
just to uncover current results.
> what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1
It only means that both options proposed for voting are weak.
BR
ermouth
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
#1: 0
#2: 0
I think that speaking of couchdb as a data container only, doesn't capture
the essence of couchdb... probably it was at version 0.1, but not at
current stage. Also it isn't a distinguishing feature.
> * what went wrong? * how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
Both slogan don't capture what CouchDB is for all of us. Everyone
personally cares different different features of CouchDB. I remember there
were two different positions in the past:
1. couchdb is a database server with the best replication protocol around
2. couchdb is the above but with a lot of distinguishing features, that
others simply don't have. As Harald said: "* is a Webserver * an
Web-App-Engine * a HTTP/HTTPS speaking Any-Device- and * a Any-File
Replicator", but maybe even more..
What went wrong is that we are still stuck in this dilemma. I like #2 and I
personally think it is just an enlarged view of #1. This means it should
theorically have consensus of all, but unfortunately this is not the case.
Just wondering: could we have a vote on these two sentences before
proceeding with the slogan?
For the Slogan voting process:
> Let the web site description be the WHAT for now
Agree with Alexander and Johs that current description suits very well for
the WHAT, because it summarize well all CouchDB features.
>Seems that ol consisting only of slogans can be very compact, well
>readable, easy to vote and can attract more attention.
Agree 100% with ermouth. There were some slogan options in the past, why
not adding them to this list, vote for the WHY and then find a HOW for
that? Could be much more easy than finding the WHY/HOW/WHAT packaged
together
Best
2015-09-16 9:56 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>:
> Hi all,
>
> I suggest to stop the vote at this pint because obviously
>
> * we do not seem to get any positiv consensus
> * more ideas have arisen and people want to show them
>
> I am not sure why this happens because there was a very long discussion
> about the slogan. So I have the feeling, we have done sth. wrong. Before we
> start again, we should clarify these points in my opinion:
>
> * what went wrong?
> * how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
> * should we create a simple template which info we need? I think this
> already there in Jan's initial email. Imo this should be a form where
> everybody fills in his ideas.
> * how do we discuss these ideas - I suggest NOT on the ML (I know that this
> might break rules but if it doesn't work ... ?)
> * what is the schedule? As we had along a thread already, I suggest to not
> schedule it longer than two weeks
>
> I am a bit confused why this vote is going in this direction. To say it
> clearly: what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1?
> But on the other hand, this is a community process and I am happy to learn
> from it ("there are no errors - there is only experience we made what helps
> us to learn")
>
> What do you think?
>
> Jan - thanks a lot for starting the vote. You did this with the best
> intentions!
>
> All the best
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On 16 September 2015 at 08:38, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I think using the present official description is a good idea, use this
> as
> > the briefing then try and get more proposals on the slogan/mission
> > > On 16. sep. 2015, at 07.28, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > CouchDB is a database that completely embraces the web. Store your
> > > data with JSON documents. Access your documents and query your indexes
> > > with your web browser, via HTTP. Index, combine, and transform your
> > > documents with JavaScript. CouchDB works well with modern web and
> > > mobile apps. You can even serve web apps directly out of CouchDB. And
> > > you can distribute your data, or your apps, efficiently using
> > > CouchDB’s incremental replication. CouchDB supports master-master
> > > setups with automatic conflict detection.
> > >
> > > P.S. I'm not sure how it should be, but for me Mission should be
> > > actionless statement. Mission is something you aimed to reach, it's a
> > > goal, the holy grail. "Data that sync" is not a mission, it's a
> > > feature and even incorrect because data itself cannot sync (;
> > I agree on this
> >
> > 'Data that sync' is at best a slogan candidate assuming that the data is
> > what the target group care about and that the syncing is the key
> > differentiator.
> > Mission need to more like a raison d'etre
> > The "what" description will explain and inform, and the one above is good
> >
> > A comment on how hard it seems to agree on any of this...
> >
> > When you position a solution that does not fit into conventional
> > categories, the quest is really about pinpointing what is different,
> using
> > existing terms and concepts.
> > In branding this is the classic dilemma,
> >
> > identity is about belonging and uniqueness at the same time;
> > you need to reference what is in people's mind already to position
> > something as new and unique.
> >
> > If people cannot place it in between what is already in their head you
> > have no hook, if it fits into a well established category it will be
> > another grey mouse, just smaller. Both ways you loose.
> > A technique used in positioning is triangulation, you pick two well known
> > "fix points" and use them to explain your position.
> > Company C can position itself by comparing itself to company A and B, if
> > both are very good alternatives and thus convey, "we are as good as A and
> > B, but we are different, come have a look."
> >
> > If there is a new round on the slogan quest, I would suggest the
> following
> > pre-round:
> > Let the web site description be the WHAT for now
> > Discuss what 2 words need to be in the slogan or mission to connect
> > CouchDB to well established and valuable concepts.
> >
> > Johs
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Cloud App Store
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Jason Smith <ja...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> I am not sure why this happens because there was a very long discussion
> about the slogan. So I have the feeling, we have done sth. wrong. Before we
> start again, we should clarify these points in my opinion:
>
> * what went wrong?
>
At least in my case, it was **I** who was wrong. I simply procrastinated
reading the other thread, but when I saw the big "VOTE" email, I engaged.
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
I suggest to stop the vote at this pint because obviously
* we do not seem to get any positiv consensus
* more ideas have arisen and people want to show them
I am not sure why this happens because there was a very long discussion
about the slogan. So I have the feeling, we have done sth. wrong. Before we
start again, we should clarify these points in my opinion:
* what went wrong?
* how and where do we collect ideas about a slogan?
* should we create a simple template which info we need? I think this
already there in Jan's initial email. Imo this should be a form where
everybody fills in his ideas.
* how do we discuss these ideas - I suggest NOT on the ML (I know that this
might break rules but if it doesn't work ... ?)
* what is the schedule? As we had along a thread already, I suggest to not
schedule it longer than two weeks
I am a bit confused why this vote is going in this direction. To say it
clearly: what did we discuss if most of the proposals are voted with -1?
But on the other hand, this is a community process and I am happy to learn
from it ("there are no errors - there is only experience we made what helps
us to learn")
What do you think?
Jan - thanks a lot for starting the vote. You did this with the best
intentions!
All the best
Andy
On 16 September 2015 at 08:38, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I think using the present official description is a good idea, use this as
> the briefing then try and get more proposals on the slogan/mission
> > On 16. sep. 2015, at 07.28, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > CouchDB is a database that completely embraces the web. Store your
> > data with JSON documents. Access your documents and query your indexes
> > with your web browser, via HTTP. Index, combine, and transform your
> > documents with JavaScript. CouchDB works well with modern web and
> > mobile apps. You can even serve web apps directly out of CouchDB. And
> > you can distribute your data, or your apps, efficiently using
> > CouchDB’s incremental replication. CouchDB supports master-master
> > setups with automatic conflict detection.
> >
> > P.S. I'm not sure how it should be, but for me Mission should be
> > actionless statement. Mission is something you aimed to reach, it's a
> > goal, the holy grail. "Data that sync" is not a mission, it's a
> > feature and even incorrect because data itself cannot sync (;
> I agree on this
>
> 'Data that sync' is at best a slogan candidate assuming that the data is
> what the target group care about and that the syncing is the key
> differentiator.
> Mission need to more like a raison d'etre
> The "what" description will explain and inform, and the one above is good
>
> A comment on how hard it seems to agree on any of this...
>
> When you position a solution that does not fit into conventional
> categories, the quest is really about pinpointing what is different, using
> existing terms and concepts.
> In branding this is the classic dilemma,
>
> identity is about belonging and uniqueness at the same time;
> you need to reference what is in people's mind already to position
> something as new and unique.
>
> If people cannot place it in between what is already in their head you
> have no hook, if it fits into a well established category it will be
> another grey mouse, just smaller. Both ways you loose.
> A technique used in positioning is triangulation, you pick two well known
> "fix points" and use them to explain your position.
> Company C can position itself by comparing itself to company A and B, if
> both are very good alternatives and thus convey, "we are as good as A and
> B, but we are different, come have a look."
>
> If there is a new round on the slogan quest, I would suggest the following
> pre-round:
> Let the web site description be the WHAT for now
> Discuss what 2 words need to be in the slogan or mission to connect
> CouchDB to well established and valuable concepts.
>
> Johs
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Hi,
I think using the present official description is a good idea, use this as the briefing then try and get more proposals on the slogan/mission
> On 16. sep. 2015, at 07.28, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> CouchDB is a database that completely embraces the web. Store your
> data with JSON documents. Access your documents and query your indexes
> with your web browser, via HTTP. Index, combine, and transform your
> documents with JavaScript. CouchDB works well with modern web and
> mobile apps. You can even serve web apps directly out of CouchDB. And
> you can distribute your data, or your apps, efficiently using
> CouchDB’s incremental replication. CouchDB supports master-master
> setups with automatic conflict detection.
>
> P.S. I'm not sure how it should be, but for me Mission should be
> actionless statement. Mission is something you aimed to reach, it's a
> goal, the holy grail. "Data that sync" is not a mission, it's a
> feature and even incorrect because data itself cannot sync (;
I agree on this
'Data that sync' is at best a slogan candidate assuming that the data is what the target group care about and that the syncing is the key differentiator.
Mission need to more like a raison d'etre
The "what" description will explain and inform, and the one above is good
A comment on how hard it seems to agree on any of this...
When you position a solution that does not fit into conventional categories, the quest is really about pinpointing what is different, using existing terms and concepts.
In branding this is the classic dilemma,
identity is about belonging and uniqueness at the same time;
you need to reference what is in people's mind already to position something as new and unique.
If people cannot place it in between what is already in their head you have no hook, if it fits into a well established category it will be another grey mouse, just smaller. Both ways you loose.
A technique used in positioning is triangulation, you pick two well known "fix points" and use them to explain your position.
Company C can position itself by comparing itself to company A and B, if both are very good alternatives and thus convey, "we are as good as A and B, but we are different, come have a look."
If there is a new round on the slogan quest, I would suggest the following pre-round:
Let the web site description be the WHAT for now
Discuss what 2 words need to be in the slogan or mission to connect CouchDB to well established and valuable concepts.
Johs
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
Proposal #1: -1
Slogan is quite too broad and fits better for some cloud data storage.
Mission is sounds like we only care about data sync. And it more looks
like a WHAT description.
Description is wrong about:
- Any leading cloud provides. There are only two of such;
- Not every native app loves JSON. JSON is a web thing and only exists
because of web and lack of love for XML. Outside there are much better
transfer format;
- JSON and binary attachments in the one sentence causes conflict
because JSON cannot work with binaries;
- Couch Replication Protocol sounds like a separate project that power
everything - why do people need CouchDB then?
Proposal #2: -1
Slogan is quite interesting and even could work.
But mission stands we we again only care about data sync.
Description repeats mistakes of the Proposal #1, but tries to be better.
What's more important that from both proposal it doesn't seems clear
about what they're talking about. Data where you need, replication
protocol, cloud provider, JSON, sync, offline - is that something like
dropbox?
Both proposals misses quite oblivious facts:
1. CouchDB is a database in the first place, not dropbox, rsync, cloud
service, or whatever;
2. It uses HTTP for API that speaks JSON;
3. It made in Erlang for the great scale;
Basically, if I just quote our website, it will describe CouchDB much
more better and precisely:
CouchDB is a database that completely embraces the web. Store your
data with JSON documents. Access your documents and query your indexes
with your web browser, via HTTP. Index, combine, and transform your
documents with JavaScript. CouchDB works well with modern web and
mobile apps. You can even serve web apps directly out of CouchDB. And
you can distribute your data, or your apps, efficiently using
CouchDB’s incremental replication. CouchDB supports master-master
setups with automatic conflict detection.
P.S. I'm not sure how it should be, but for me Mission should be
actionless statement. Mission is something you aimed to reach, it's a
goal, the holy grail. "Data that sync" is not a mission, it's a
feature and even incorrect because data itself cannot sync (;
--
,,,^..^,,,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 10:51 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
>
Re: [VOTE] WHY/HOW/WHAT
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Hi,
#1 slogan -1 because it is not unique enough (31 pages of google hits)
#2 0
To the process;
the "package vote" might have made it harder to arrive at the slogan to use although I think the w-w-w is useful to slice up the discussion
I was hoping for more than 2 proposals and would propose another round, and concentrate on the "slogan" and "mission statement" and ask for 3-5 words on the first one and a sentence on the last one.
My candidate would be
Slogan: Data that sync
Mission statement: <Something that unwrap that, about enabling your data to live and breath with the users wherever they are, don't have the words yet>
I think the couple slogan>mission is a good "package" to develop since the slogan needs to be the teaser for the mission
I think the WHAT needs to be adapted to various target groups and could be updated as often as needed, while the slogan needs to be long term part of branding together with the name and logo.
Johs
> On 15. sep. 2015, at 21.51, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as promised, here’s the vote for our new Slogan, Mission Statement, and Description.
>
> We have two contestants.
>
> Before I show them to you, here are the rules:
>
> 1. These aren’t final-copy-edit versions, but rough drafts that convey ideas. After voting, we’ll go through them with a fine-toothed comb to get things all shiny.
>
> 2. The proposals don’t mean to capture a laundry list of your favourite features of CouchDB. They are supposed to express the focal point that our community gathers around, the thing that we all have in common, what excites us all about CouchDB. Vote accordingly.
>
> 3. This emails contains two proposals. Vote by replying to this email with your vote just under each proposal where it says “Your Vote Here”.
>
> 4. Vote with +1 (I support this), +/-0 (I’m indifferent, but no harm done either way), -1 (I don’t like this, for reasons A, B and C, (and please do include your reasons)).
>
> 5. You are welcome to qualify your vote with your take on either proposal.
>
>
> A note: Johs, I took some inspiration from your WHAT-part, I hope you don’t mind ;) — I think we are essentially voting on WHY and HOW anyway, as the WHAT is roughly the same idea.
>
> Without further ado, here are our proposals.
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #1:
>
> Slogan: Data where you need it. (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Apache CouchDB lets you access your data where you need it by defining the Couch Replication Protocol that is implemented by a variety of projects and products that span every imaginable computing environment from distributed server-clusters, over mobile phones to web browsers. (HOW)
>
> Description: Store your data safely, on your own servers, or with any leading cloud provider. Your web- and native applications love CouchDB, because it speaks JSON natively and supports binary attachments for all your data storage needs. The Couch Replication Protocol lets your data flow seamlessly between server clusters to mobile phones and web browsers, enabling a compelling, offline-first, user-experience while maintaining high performance and strong reliability. CouchDB comes with a developer-friendly query language, and optionally MapReduce for simple, efficient, and comprehensive data retrieval. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Proposal #2:
>
> Slogan: Restful freedom (WHY)
>
> Mission Statement: Data that sync (HOW)
>
> Description:
> Store your data safely, on your own servers or with any leading cloud provider. Your web applications can follow the data if you want since CouchDB speaks JSON with any file type attached. It lets you run your JavaScript on the server or in the browser. You can start with the smallest of technology stacks and grow to serve millions of users -- following a learning curve that doesn't break. Keep your data in sync and where your users need it to be, on the device of their preference, online or offline. Share, combine, present, receive and update documents via master-to-master replication and let web based services monitor changes for additional processing. (WHAT)
>
> Your Vote Here
>
> * * *
>
> Thanks!
> Jan
> --
>
>