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Posted to dev@isis.apache.org by Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl> on 2013/02/01 13:35:07 UTC
More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Hi folks,
Another interesting area would be and an alternatives object-store based
on Tinkerpop blueprints.
If someone ever wants to embark on writing a graph base object store,
Tinkerpop might be the way to go. Looks like Tinkerpop is to the graph
scene what DataNucleus is to the relational DB scene.
[1] http://www.tinkerpop.com/
[2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki
Regards,
Minto
--
ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis
Software innovator / renovator
Xup BV
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>wrote:
> On 1 February 2013 17:54, Mohammad Nour El-Din <nour.mohammad@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi...
> >
> > Dan you just read my mind. I have a plan in my mind that includes more
> > than one Apache project by which eventually we can support more needs to
> > users of ASF software, one of these steps for example providing
> application
> > suites which is empowered by oss developed at ASF, as much as possible
> for
> > sure, and also provided to users by Apache
> >
> > Apache Isis is one top candidate for that:
> >
> > - What I have in mind is to define a set of application suites that
> suites
> > the line of applications Apache Isis was made to make it easy to develop
> > - From one side these applications will promote for both Apache Isis and
> > ASF itself
> > - Also it will widen the base of Apache Isis users
> > - Also which is as important as the previous point, this will help more
> and
> > more committers to join as:
> > -# It might be easier for them to work an an application built using
> Apache
> > Isis instead of jumping into Apache Isis directly as they can see it in
> > action through working on the application
> > -# Also different applications will highlight different aspects of Apache
> > Isis and give us a lead to add to Isis itself which can attract more
> > committers as well
> >
> > I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used
> and
> > required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
> > business or number of employees
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
>
> Always interested in ideas to help build up the Isis community.
>
> With respect to building an application with Isis, I think that's great,
> though I think that Isis should remain as a framework rather than be
> considered as an application. Otherwise there's the chance of confusion as
> to what Isis is. If you have an idea for a particular application, I think
> the best thing to do might be to seed it in github, then to move it into
> ASF via the incubator once it's clear that it's a viable initiative.
>
True I didn't mean to treat Apache Isis as an application at all, what I
have in mind is to have these applications as sub-project(s) or we have one
sub-project in which we have a set application (suites) which are built on
Apache Isis and users can just install and run or even developers can
download, customize and use to build their own applications
But I agree with you such different applications can start somewhere else
like Github, bitbucket or I think even better Apache Extras
>
> As an fyi, much of the business logic of the app that Jeroen and I are
> building together could be reusable and may well end up being open sourced.
> But I think it will probably remain as a separate "brand" from Isis, for
> the reasons given above.
>
As the Dutch people say "Vet Cool" :D
>
> Where I can see some application stuff moving into Isis is in the
> supporting "technical" domain service. For example, we're just working on
> a pub/sub mechanism that will probably leverage ServiceMix/Camel. It would
> be nice to provide that as a service for anyone to use. Another example is
> a scheduler that integrates Quartz. This is currently up on a github repo
> of mine [1], but could move into Isis. And another example is a docx
> service, also on github [2]. In fact, for this one we actually have an
> Isis ticket to implement [3]; there's quite a few other tickets for similar
> services at [4]
>
Exactly, having more applications we can find more and more services which
we can provide out of the box in Apache Isis to make building DDD
applications more easy than before
>
> By all means start a DISCUSS thread about the app you have in mind; I could
> see that there might well be others here (or on the users thread) who might
> like to contribute to that app.
>
Sure
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
> [1] https://github.com/danhaywood/scheduler-service
> [2] https://github.com/danhaywood/docx-service
> [3] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ISIS-172
> [4] https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?filter=12318871
>
>
>
> > NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
> > thread for the main idea and that 1st application
> >
> > Looking forward to your reply
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Dan Haywood <
> dan@haywood-associates.co.uk
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > I think I'd rather look into see whether DN can work with NoSQL DBs (as
> > > apparently JDO supports).
> > >
> > > But yes, we've never been short of ideas about how to expand the reach
> of
> > > Isis. In fact, we probably have over-reached ourselves in our past
> > trying
> > > to encompass too many technologies. For now I'd rather we build up our
> > > base user community by focussing on just one or two well known
> > > implementations of our core APIs.
> > >
> > > Love the enthusiasm, though! And its definitely worth floating these
> > > ideas; there may be others who want to collaborate on sister projects
> (eg
> > > like apache wicket has its semi-formal wicketstuff project).
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1 February 2013 12:35, Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > > Another interesting area would be and an alternatives object-store
> > based
> > > > on Tinkerpop blueprints.
> > > >
> > > > If someone ever wants to embark on writing a graph base object store,
> > > > Tinkerpop might be the way to go. Looks like Tinkerpop is to the
> graph
> > > > scene what DataNucleus is to the relational DB scene.
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://www.tinkerpop.com/
> > > > [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Minto
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis
> > > > Software innovator / renovator
> > > > Xup BV
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > - Mohammad Nour
> > ----
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> moving"
> > - Albert Einstein
> >
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
On 1 February 2013 17:54, Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi...
>
> Dan you just read my mind. I have a plan in my mind that includes more
> than one Apache project by which eventually we can support more needs to
> users of ASF software, one of these steps for example providing application
> suites which is empowered by oss developed at ASF, as much as possible for
> sure, and also provided to users by Apache
>
> Apache Isis is one top candidate for that:
>
> - What I have in mind is to define a set of application suites that suites
> the line of applications Apache Isis was made to make it easy to develop
> - From one side these applications will promote for both Apache Isis and
> ASF itself
> - Also it will widen the base of Apache Isis users
> - Also which is as important as the previous point, this will help more and
> more committers to join as:
> -# It might be easier for them to work an an application built using Apache
> Isis instead of jumping into Apache Isis directly as they can see it in
> action through working on the application
> -# Also different applications will highlight different aspects of Apache
> Isis and give us a lead to add to Isis itself which can attract more
> committers as well
>
> I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used and
> required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
> business or number of employees
>
> Thoughts ?
>
Always interested in ideas to help build up the Isis community.
With respect to building an application with Isis, I think that's great,
though I think that Isis should remain as a framework rather than be
considered as an application. Otherwise there's the chance of confusion as
to what Isis is. If you have an idea for a particular application, I think
the best thing to do might be to seed it in github, then to move it into
ASF via the incubator once it's clear that it's a viable initiative.
As an fyi, much of the business logic of the app that Jeroen and I are
building together could be reusable and may well end up being open sourced.
But I think it will probably remain as a separate "brand" from Isis, for
the reasons given above.
Where I can see some application stuff moving into Isis is in the
supporting "technical" domain service. For example, we're just working on
a pub/sub mechanism that will probably leverage ServiceMix/Camel. It would
be nice to provide that as a service for anyone to use. Another example is
a scheduler that integrates Quartz. This is currently up on a github repo
of mine [1], but could move into Isis. And another example is a docx
service, also on github [2]. In fact, for this one we actually have an
Isis ticket to implement [3]; there's quite a few other tickets for similar
services at [4]
By all means start a DISCUSS thread about the app you have in mind; I could
see that there might well be others here (or on the users thread) who might
like to contribute to that app.
Cheers
Dan
[1] https://github.com/danhaywood/scheduler-service
[2] https://github.com/danhaywood/docx-service
[3] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ISIS-172
[4] https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?filter=12318871
> NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
> thread for the main idea and that 1st application
>
> Looking forward to your reply
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Dan Haywood <dan@haywood-associates.co.uk
> >wrote:
>
> > I think I'd rather look into see whether DN can work with NoSQL DBs (as
> > apparently JDO supports).
> >
> > But yes, we've never been short of ideas about how to expand the reach of
> > Isis. In fact, we probably have over-reached ourselves in our past
> trying
> > to encompass too many technologies. For now I'd rather we build up our
> > base user community by focussing on just one or two well known
> > implementations of our core APIs.
> >
> > Love the enthusiasm, though! And its definitely worth floating these
> > ideas; there may be others who want to collaborate on sister projects (eg
> > like apache wicket has its semi-formal wicketstuff project).
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > On 1 February 2013 12:35, Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > Another interesting area would be and an alternatives object-store
> based
> > > on Tinkerpop blueprints.
> > >
> > > If someone ever wants to embark on writing a graph base object store,
> > > Tinkerpop might be the way to go. Looks like Tinkerpop is to the graph
> > > scene what DataNucleus is to the relational DB scene.
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.tinkerpop.com/
> > > [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Minto
> > >
> > > --
> > > ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis
> > > Software innovator / renovator
> > > Xup BV
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
Hi Minto, Maurizio,
Nice to read you both tossing around these ideas. As you say, Minto, worth
floating these ideas to see if they resonate with others. Maurizio... yes,
came across Wavemaker in the past; wasn't impressed.
Picking up on your discussion on point-n-click (and by impliciation, on
design time environments), as you might know I got into the NO originally
from a background in TogetherJ (you remember that?) What I thought was
cool was that TogetherJ provided a build-time synchronicity between a
diagram and the code, while NO provided a runtime synchronicity between the
code and the app. Back then (2002!) the viewer was the DnD viewer, so it
sort of looked a bit like a UML instance diagram.
fyi also, I have done some (rather buggy) plugins for Eclipse IDE [1],
trying to abstract out some of the detail and provide nice editors for the
annotations and other coding conventions. If there was anyone here who was
good at that stuff, you are more than welcome to fork it and improve it.
Maurizio, another thing to mention (in case you aren't aware) is the idea
of a DSL for Isis, which Minto and others and I have kicked around. For
myself, I'm not completely convinced it's a game changer for Isis, but it
would be fun to have. I did sketch up an idea of what such a DSL could
look like [2], [3].
Cheers
Dan
[1] https://github.com/danhaywood/apache-isis-ide
[2] http://markmail.org/message/sq2xbdkdoiaethao
[3] http://markmail.org/message/d3tz72fdwad5ccw4
On 3 February 2013 14:19, Maurizio Taverna <ta...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hello Minto,
>
> My vision is a completely generic online environment where applications
> > can be created through point and click. Sort of like Visual Basic, but
> > not with the emphasize on de GUI but on the model. This allows for a
> > really nice prototyping experience. Modifying the model instantly
> > modifies the application.
> > Exporting the created prototype as a working Isis application allows to
> > turn the prototype into a real application.
> >
>
> I like your vision, anyone who's worked in the financial services industry
> knows that many business applications are written by business people using
> spreadsheets.
> An online environment like this could be the daily tool for next generation
> of business people.
> A couple years ago we developed a online environment based on Spring/GAE.
> In 2011 when VMWare acquired the point-and-click application creation
> platform WaveMaker[1] we
> abandoned the project, even if our online tool included nice features (as
> project sharing, sticky notes, etc) we realize that a small company could
> not compete with SpringSource.
> I'm thinking about start over using Apache Isis because, in my opinion, the
> programming model fits perfectly, but a project like this requires a huge
> investment in terms of time/effort.
>
>
>
> Cheers
> Maurizio
>
> [1] http://readwrite.com/2011/03/08/vmware-acquires-point-and-clic
>
>
>
> 2013/2/2 Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I guess most people involved with Apache Isis or NO in general probably
> > envision some bigger picture.
> >
> > Here's mine:
> >
> > My vision is a completely generic online environment where applications
> > can be created through point and click. Sort of like Visual Basic, but
> > not with the emphasize on de GUI but on the model. This allows for a
> > really nice prototyping experience. Modifying the model instantly
> > modifies the application.
> > Exporting the created prototype as a working Isis application allows to
> > turn the prototype into a real application.
> >
> > Of course this raises many questions. For instance how to point and
> > click actions.
> >
> >
> > Op 1-2-2013 18:54, Mohammad Nour El-Din schreef:
> > > I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used
> > and
> > > required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
> > > business or number of employees
> > >
> > > Thoughts ?
> > >
> > > NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
> > > thread for the main idea and that 1st application
> > >
> > > Looking forward to your reply
> > You definitely made me very curious ;-)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Minto
> >
>
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Maurizio Taverna <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hello Minto,
My vision is a completely generic online environment where applications
> can be created through point and click. Sort of like Visual Basic, but
> not with the emphasize on de GUI but on the model. This allows for a
> really nice prototyping experience. Modifying the model instantly
> modifies the application.
> Exporting the created prototype as a working Isis application allows to
> turn the prototype into a real application.
>
I like your vision, anyone who's worked in the financial services industry
knows that many business applications are written by business people using
spreadsheets.
An online environment like this could be the daily tool for next generation
of business people.
A couple years ago we developed a online environment based on Spring/GAE.
In 2011 when VMWare acquired the point-and-click application creation
platform WaveMaker[1] we
abandoned the project, even if our online tool included nice features (as
project sharing, sticky notes, etc) we realize that a small company could
not compete with SpringSource.
I'm thinking about start over using Apache Isis because, in my opinion, the
programming model fits perfectly, but a project like this requires a huge
investment in terms of time/effort.
Cheers
Maurizio
[1] http://readwrite.com/2011/03/08/vmware-acquires-point-and-clic
2013/2/2 Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl>
> Hi,
>
> I guess most people involved with Apache Isis or NO in general probably
> envision some bigger picture.
>
> Here's mine:
>
> My vision is a completely generic online environment where applications
> can be created through point and click. Sort of like Visual Basic, but
> not with the emphasize on de GUI but on the model. This allows for a
> really nice prototyping experience. Modifying the model instantly
> modifies the application.
> Exporting the created prototype as a working Isis application allows to
> turn the prototype into a real application.
>
> Of course this raises many questions. For instance how to point and
> click actions.
>
>
> Op 1-2-2013 18:54, Mohammad Nour El-Din schreef:
> > I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used
> and
> > required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
> > business or number of employees
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
> > thread for the main idea and that 1st application
> >
> > Looking forward to your reply
> You definitely made me very curious ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Minto
>
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl>.
Hi,
I guess most people involved with Apache Isis or NO in general probably
envision some bigger picture.
Here's mine:
My vision is a completely generic online environment where applications
can be created through point and click. Sort of like Visual Basic, but
not with the emphasize on de GUI but on the model. This allows for a
really nice prototyping experience. Modifying the model instantly
modifies the application.
Exporting the created prototype as a working Isis application allows to
turn the prototype into a real application.
Of course this raises many questions. For instance how to point and
click actions.
Op 1-2-2013 18:54, Mohammad Nour El-Din schreef:
> I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used and
> required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
> business or number of employees
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
> thread for the main idea and that 1st application
>
> Looking forward to your reply
You definitely made me very curious ;-)
Regards,
Minto
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi...
Dan you just read my mind. I have a plan in my mind that includes more
than one Apache project by which eventually we can support more needs to
users of ASF software, one of these steps for example providing application
suites which is empowered by oss developed at ASF, as much as possible for
sure, and also provided to users by Apache
Apache Isis is one top candidate for that:
- What I have in mind is to define a set of application suites that suites
the line of applications Apache Isis was made to make it easy to develop
- From one side these applications will promote for both Apache Isis and
ASF itself
- Also it will widen the base of Apache Isis users
- Also which is as important as the previous point, this will help more and
more committers to join as:
-# It might be easier for them to work an an application built using Apache
Isis instead of jumping into Apache Isis directly as they can see it in
action through working on the application
-# Also different applications will highlight different aspects of Apache
Isis and give us a lead to add to Isis itself which can attract more
committers as well
I already have an idea of an application in mind which I have seen used and
required by almost all companies I worked for regardless the size of
business or number of employees
Thoughts ?
NOTE: If more consensus or interest is there I will start a [DISCUSS]
thread for the main idea and that 1st application
Looking forward to your reply
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>wrote:
> I think I'd rather look into see whether DN can work with NoSQL DBs (as
> apparently JDO supports).
>
> But yes, we've never been short of ideas about how to expand the reach of
> Isis. In fact, we probably have over-reached ourselves in our past trying
> to encompass too many technologies. For now I'd rather we build up our
> base user community by focussing on just one or two well known
> implementations of our core APIs.
>
> Love the enthusiasm, though! And its definitely worth floating these
> ideas; there may be others who want to collaborate on sister projects (eg
> like apache wicket has its semi-formal wicketstuff project).
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
>
> On 1 February 2013 12:35, Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Another interesting area would be and an alternatives object-store based
> > on Tinkerpop blueprints.
> >
> > If someone ever wants to embark on writing a graph base object store,
> > Tinkerpop might be the way to go. Looks like Tinkerpop is to the graph
> > scene what DataNucleus is to the relational DB scene.
> >
> > [1] http://www.tinkerpop.com/
> > [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Minto
> >
> > --
> > ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis
> > Software innovator / renovator
> > Xup BV
> >
> >
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl>.
Op 1-2-2013 13:40, Dan Haywood schreef:
> I think I'd rather look into see whether DN can work with NoSQL DBs (as
> apparently JDO supports).
Agreed DN is the easy way out. But currently DN only support 2 graph
databases (neo4j and orientDB). Of course is would be possible to have
DN support Tinkerpop Blueprints and gain support for a lot more graph
database. This is stacking abstraction layer on abstraction layer, but
that is of minor importance.
I am more worried about if the DN model properly fits the full capacity
of the graph model. I might look into this some day.
BTW, my interest in graph database comes from my current assignment
where we use Apache projects like Jena, Clerezza and Stanbol.
> But yes, we've never been short of ideas about how to expand the reach of
> Isis. In fact, we probably have over-reached ourselves in our past trying
> to encompass too many technologies. For now I'd rather we build up our
> base user community by focussing on just one or two well known
> implementations of our core APIs.
Don't get me wrong. I don't expect you guys to do anything just because
I have some random thoughts. I merely coin up these ideas to test if
they do fit and for the mailing list archive.
> Love the enthusiasm, though! And its definitely worth floating these
> ideas; there may be others who want to collaborate on sister projects (eg
> like apache wicket has its semi-formal wicketstuff project).
Regards,
Minto
Re: More random thoughts, graph based object-store
Posted by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
I think I'd rather look into see whether DN can work with NoSQL DBs (as
apparently JDO supports).
But yes, we've never been short of ideas about how to expand the reach of
Isis. In fact, we probably have over-reached ourselves in our past trying
to encompass too many technologies. For now I'd rather we build up our
base user community by focussing on just one or two well known
implementations of our core APIs.
Love the enthusiasm, though! And its definitely worth floating these
ideas; there may be others who want to collaborate on sister projects (eg
like apache wicket has its semi-formal wicketstuff project).
Cheers
Dan
On 1 February 2013 12:35, Minto van der Sluis <mi...@xup.nl> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Another interesting area would be and an alternatives object-store based
> on Tinkerpop blueprints.
>
> If someone ever wants to embark on writing a graph base object store,
> Tinkerpop might be the way to go. Looks like Tinkerpop is to the graph
> scene what DataNucleus is to the relational DB scene.
>
> [1] http://www.tinkerpop.com/
> [2] https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki
>
> Regards,
>
> Minto
>
> --
> ir. ing. Minto van der Sluis
> Software innovator / renovator
> Xup BV
>
>