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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Wolfgang Weigel <wo...@web.de> on 2004/02/29 00:08:10 UTC
Experiences with Lenya
Hi!
I want to give some personal experinces with lenya to the group. All experiences
are made with SuSE Linux 8.2 and had been tested on two machines.
First I tried lenya-1.2rc2-bin. I startet jetty. I could try all the examples.
After that I wanted to produce pdf-output from the xhtml-sites. So I tried the
method described here at gmane (posting from the 21th feb). This did not work
(details you can find in the other thread).
I also tried to use the bitflux editor (downloaded latest version 26.02.04).
With Mozilla 1.6 it did not work. All I got was the message:
You need JavaScript enabled. Otherwise nothing at all works here :)
This message I can not understand because js IS enabled.
After that I tried to use the epoz editor. I was able to start the editor but
all changes to a side and including assets could not be saved. There was no
error messages but all the content had been gone after pressing the "save and
exit" button or nothing happend.
So I downloaded the nightly build of lenya from feb 26th and installed the
war-file under tomcat (4.1.18). (I wanted to use lenya via tomcat anyway). Right
now the pdf-problem is solved. I can produce pdf out of the xml/xhtml files.
Right now it is not possible to load up assets any more. I follow the upload
dialog and after pressing the upload-button I am redirected to the
"Overview"-site and no assets had been stored.
I also installed the epoz and the bitflux editor. For them and for the "Form/One
Form" editing method I get the following error message:
Generic Exception
So I am not able to edit any documents any more.
These are my experiences (as beginner) with lenya. I like the idea of the
lenya-system. (I also had been working with cocoon).
For the problems I described I have no solution so far. Maybe it is useful to
know because other beginners have the same troubles.
bye
wolfgang
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>> Robert Koberg wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Personally, I think storing your content in XHTML is not the best way
>>> to go, mainly because it makes validation near impossible.
>>> Which is easier to validate?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you mean which schema is easier to write?
>
>
> No. I mean how do you validate something (@class) that can take any
> string? Sure you can validate whether it is XHTML or not but you can't
> account for something like:
>
> <div class="a">the answer
> <div class="faq">jhgjhghj</div>
> <div class="q">the question</div>
> </div>
OK, now I see what you mean. The XML schema is not
able to express requirements for the attributes of
nested elements.
>> If you want to restrict the CSS classes, you have
>> to override the XHTML schema rules, which isn't
>> that easy. But with XHTML you get a complete
>> proven schema.
>>
>>> <faq>
>>> <q>jdfg</q>
>>> <a>jkgkj</a>
>>> </faq>
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> <div class="faq">
>>> <div class="q">jdfg</div>
>>> <div class="a">jkgkj</div>
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> That being said, 80-90% of the time users only need simple articles
>>> that have no validation needs....
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you mean with "no validation needs"? I think
>> validation is essential for a consistent document
>> base.
>
>
> Oh, I agree. I would probably be (more) insane if I wasn't able to
> validate my projects (content and config).
>
> What I meant to write is that most users do not care about semantics and
> just want to write like they are in word.
OK.
-- Andreas
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Personally, I think storing your content in XHTML is not the best way
>> to go, mainly because it makes validation near impossible.
>> Which is easier to validate?
>
>
> Do you mean which schema is easier to write?
No. I mean how do you validate something (@class) that can take any
string? Sure you can validate whether it is XHTML or not but you can't
account for something like:
<div class="a">the answer
<div class="faq">jhgjhghj</div>
<div class="q">the question</div>
</div>
>
> If you want to restrict the CSS classes, you have
> to override the XHTML schema rules, which isn't
> that easy. But with XHTML you get a complete
> proven schema.
>
>> <faq>
>> <q>jdfg</q>
>> <a>jkgkj</a>
>> </faq>
>>
>> or
>>
>> <div class="faq">
>> <div class="q">jdfg</div>
>> <div class="a">jkgkj</div>
>> </div>
>>
>> That being said, 80-90% of the time users only need simple articles
>> that have no validation needs....
>
>
> What do you mean with "no validation needs"? I think
> validation is essential for a consistent document
> base.
Oh, I agree. I would probably be (more) insane if I wasn't able to
validate my projects (content and config).
What I meant to write is that most users do not care about semantics and
just want to write like they are in word.
best,
-Rob
>
> -- Andreas
>
>> A really nice editor we have found is XStandard:
>> http://www.xstandard.com/
>>
>> it is the best XHTML editor we have seen that is out there, but it is
>> Windows only because it uses a plugin (works on IE and Mozilla). It
>> uses soap to connect to the server. They have only created a backend
>> for windows, but I have done some tests with axis (well, I paid
>> someone) and it works.
>>
>> best,
>> -Rob
>
>
>
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
[...]
> Personally, I think storing your content in XHTML is not the best way to
> go, mainly because it makes validation near impossible.
> Which is easier
> to validate?
Do you mean which schema is easier to write?
If you want to restrict the CSS classes, you have
to override the XHTML schema rules, which isn't
that easy. But with XHTML you get a complete
proven schema.
> <faq>
> <q>jdfg</q>
> <a>jkgkj</a>
> </faq>
>
> or
>
> <div class="faq">
> <div class="q">jdfg</div>
> <div class="a">jkgkj</div>
> </div>
>
> That being said, 80-90% of the time users only need simple articles that
> have no validation needs....
What do you mean with "no validation needs"? I think
validation is essential for a consistent document
base.
-- Andreas
> A really nice editor we have found is XStandard:
> http://www.xstandard.com/
>
> it is the best XHTML editor we have seen that is out there, but it is
> Windows only because it uses a plugin (works on IE and Mozilla). It uses
> soap to connect to the server. They have only created a backend for
> windows, but I have done some tests with axis (well, I paid someone) and
> it works.
>
> best,
> -Rob
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Ethan Schroeder wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> My favorite parts of lenya:
>> 1.) Epoz integration. I wouldn't have considered using Lenya pre-Epoz
>> integration. You guys did a fantastic job with this. I am still amazed
>> that you managed to take a "binary" Zope/Python application and
>> integrate it into Lenya by using XSL. Genius.
>
>
> By now, I'm against including interfaces to plain XHTML editors
> in Lenya. It requires maintainence and does not support the
> "industrial strength" aspect. But it seems like this approach is
> really accepted by a lot of users ... Is the generic XML approach
> the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
> external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
> there who needs pure XML editing? :)
Personally, I think storing your content in XHTML is not the best way to
go, mainly because it makes validation near impossible. Which is easier
to validate?
<faq>
<q>jdfg</q>
<a>jkgkj</a>
</faq>
or
<div class="faq">
<div class="q">jdfg</div>
<div class="a">jkgkj</div>
</div>
That being said, 80-90% of the time users only need simple articles that
have no validation needs....
A really nice editor we have found is XStandard:
http://www.xstandard.com/
it is the best XHTML editor we have seen that is out there, but it is
Windows only because it uses a plugin (works on IE and Mozilla). It uses
soap to connect to the server. They have only created a backend for
windows, but I have done some tests with axis (well, I paid someone) and
it works.
best,
-Rob
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-03-01 at 10:01, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> > Yes, I will need it in the future, but at the mom, one is not possible
> > to edit i.e. xhtml files with bxe out of the box (bla is not allowed in
> > p and things). And that is.....
>
> that was a bug in lenya (wrong schema), and has been fixed about a week
> ago. in my experience bxe has been very useable.
Oh, I remember when I tested bxe the last time, the "a not allowed in p"
has been gone, but there were other "...not allowed in.." things then. I
will give it another try soon.
--
Regards,
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> Yes, I will need it in the future, but at the mom, one is not possible
> to edit i.e. xhtml files with bxe out of the box (bla is not allowed in
> p and things). And that is.....
that was a bug in lenya (wrong schema), and has been fixed about a week
ago. in my experience bxe has been very useable.
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-03-01 at 10:01, Christian Stocker wrote:
> > Thats why I use epoz to edit simple xhtml files. XHTML is a real good
> > compromise between web near and separation of content and presentation.
>
> I agree on that. And the latest BXE supports XHTML far better than
> before (pre 0.9 releases), as long as your config and RelaxNG files are
Yes I have seen. BXE is improving really cool. Great work.
Yes, I thought the problem is the relaxng stuff in lenya, but I hadn't
time yet to have a look. I'm only trying from time to time to use lenya
with latest bxe and never got really satisfied, but ok, since epoz
integration was never really finished, yet (shame on me), I never got
really satisfied by Epoz, too (Image upload etc.), but I was bale to
edit xhtml completely and save it, which I never could do with bxe.
But, I'm d'accord with Andreas, BXE is the long/mid term technology to
use in projects. It's really an industrial strength approach and
technology.
> ok ;)
>
> chregu
--
Regards,
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Christian Stocker <ch...@bitflux.ch>.
On 3/1/04 10:08 AM, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Mon, 2004-03-01 at 09:25, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>
>>[...]
>>By now, I'm against including interfaces to plain XHTML editors
>>in Lenya. It requires maintainence and does not support the
>>"industrial strength" aspect. But it seems like this approach is
>>really accepted by a lot of users ... Is the generic XML approach
>>the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
>>external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
>>there who needs pure XML editing? :)
>
>
> Yes, I will need it in the future, but at the mom, one is not possible
> to edit i.e. xhtml files with bxe out of the box (bla is not allowed in
> p and things). And that is.....
Then somethings wrong either with the config.xml or the RelaxNG
definitions. The latest BXE (0.9.3) shouldn't have any problems with
that anymore (there were some issues with older releases, but I'm not
sure, if they affected Lenya at all)
> Thats why I use epoz to edit simple xhtml files. XHTML is a real good
> compromise between web near and separation of content and presentation.
I agree on that. And the latest BXE supports XHTML far better than
before (pre 0.9 releases), as long as your config and RelaxNG files are
ok ;)
chregu
> On the other hand, integrating Epoz/other (open source!) editors shows
> the flexibilty/industrial strength of Lenya, imho.
>
>
--
christian stocker | Bitflux GmbH | schoeneggstrasse 5 | ch-8004 zurich
phone +41 1 240 56 70 | mobile +41 76 561 88 60 | fax +41 1 240 56 71
http://www.bitflux.ch | chregu@bitflux.ch | gnupg-keyid 0x5CE1DECB
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-03-01 at 09:25, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> [...]
> By now, I'm against including interfaces to plain XHTML editors
> in Lenya. It requires maintainence and does not support the
> "industrial strength" aspect. But it seems like this approach is
> really accepted by a lot of users ... Is the generic XML approach
> the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
> external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
> there who needs pure XML editing? :)
Yes, I will need it in the future, but at the mom, one is not possible
to edit i.e. xhtml files with bxe out of the box (bla is not allowed in
p and things). And that is.....
Thats why I use epoz to edit simple xhtml files. XHTML is a real good
compromise between web near and separation of content and presentation.
On the other hand, integrating Epoz/other (open source!) editors shows
the flexibilty/industrial strength of Lenya, imho.
--
Regards,
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> David Pinelo wrote:
>
>> But let the editor creating an HTML table on the content (because the
>> WYSIWYG editor allow it)... The table the user create can make the
>> page on Internet a horrible page (maybe the editor creates a table
>> with a very huge fix width...). The user don't know he is editing
>> XHTML, but he is doing it. And often you don't have control what
>> editor is doing. Suppose your page has to be W3C accessibility
>> compliant, most of the WYSIWYG editor doesn't generate accesible HTML,
>> so you would have to transform the XHTML generate by the editor. Don't
>> be better to edit XML directly by the editors?
>
>
> another option would be to disallow the tables module from xhtml. the
> relax ng schema is modularized.
>
>
Don't know if you do this already, but you should also disallow
structure (<html/>, <head/> and <body/>). This should be done in the
transformation so the content can be reused for other purposes.
We basically use XHTML minus structure, the style and class attribute
and replace DIV and SPAN with descriptive names.
best,
-Rob
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
David Pinelo wrote:
> But let the editor creating an HTML table on the content (because the WYSIWYG
> editor allow it)... The table the user create can make the page on Internet a
> horrible page (maybe the editor creates a table with a very huge fix
> width...). The user don't know he is editing XHTML, but he is doing it. And
> often you don't have control what editor is doing. Suppose your page has to
> be W3C accessibility compliant, most of the WYSIWYG editor doesn't generate
> accesible HTML, so you would have to transform the XHTML generate by the
> editor. Don't be better to edit XML directly by the editors?
another option would be to disallow the tables module from xhtml. the
relax ng schema is modularized.
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by David Pinelo <da...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
El Lunes, 1 de Marzo de 2004 13:52, Andreas Hartmann escribió:
> With WYSIWYG editing, the editor won't notice if he edits
> XHTML or another XML format.
But let the editor creating an HTML table on the content (because the WYSIWYG
editor allow it)... The table the user create can make the page on Internet a
horrible page (maybe the editor creates a table with a very huge fix
width...). The user don't know he is editing XHTML, but he is doing it. And
often you don't have control what editor is doing. Suppose your page has to
be W3C accessibility compliant, most of the WYSIWYG editor doesn't generate
accesible HTML, so you would have to transform the XHTML generate by the
editor. Don't be better to edit XML directly by the editors?
> The layout concern is not direcly related to the choice
> between XHTML or another XML format. XHTML strict separates
> layout from content.
XHTML it's a formal specification of HTML to be XML compliant (sorry for my
english)... I think real separation is Cocoon idea: Your XML with it's own
DTD, so you can validate:
<news>
<title>My new</title>
</news>
Then a generator, transform, a serializer... And you have HTML:
<table>
<td><b>My new</b></td>
</table>
The editor only has to know how to edit an XML new.
> So for your purpose editing XML sources is more useful than
> WYSIWYG XML editing?
Yes. My experience make me think: If you let a journalist (for example)
editing the content of a page using a editor like WYSIWYG, he thinks he's
using MS Word, and he doesn't edit an Internet page, he will try to edit a
newspaper... and the result on the web will be a dissaster.
Regards,
David.
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Re: Cocoon Version
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Dale Christ wrote:
> Gregor--
>
> That fixed it. My blog now displays again. Is there a way to clean
> cocoon befyour you rebuild it? In lenya I use "ant reset" and "ant
> clean". to clean lenya before I build it. Is there an equivalent one
> in cocoon? Thanks.
use ant clean in the cocoon src directory
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Cocoon Version
Posted by Dale Christ <de...@yahoo.com>.
Gregor--
That fixed it. My blog now displays again. Is there a way to clean
cocoon befyour you rebuild it? In lenya I use "ant reset" and "ant
clean". to clean lenya before I build it. Is there an equivalent one
in cocoon? Thanks.
--Dale
--- "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Message: The given container name is not unique: cocoon-portal
>
> the portal block is not needed in lenya. i would strongly suggest to
> use
> the local.blocks.properties when you build coocoon
>
> --
> Gregor J. Rothfuss
> Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
> http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
> gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
>
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Re: Cocoon Version
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
>> Message: The given container name is not unique: cocoon-portal
the portal block is not needed in lenya. i would strongly suggest to use
the local.blocks.properties when you build coocoon
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Cocoon Version
Posted by Dale Christ <de...@yahoo.com>.
--- Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dale Christ wrote:
>
> > All--
> >
> > Which version of Cocoon is reccommened against the latest Lenya
> CVS?
>
> 2.1.4 and CVS head are recommended.
>
> > I'm trying to use 2.1.4, in which some things to break.
>
> Are the issues in bugzilla?
I believe they are. I'll check them this evening.
>
> > If I use the latest Cocoon CVS, Lenya doesn't work at all. I get
> the
> > following initilization prolem from cocoon:
> >
> > Initialization Problem
> >
> > Message: The given container name is not unique: cocoon-portal
>
> Strange ... I'm also using CVS head and it works quite well
> (apart from the known XSLT problems) ...
>
> Did you do "ant reset"?
> Could you file a bug if the problem persists?
This is the shell program that I use to build my blog:
#!/bin/sh
tomcatctrl stop
cd ~/tomcat/common/endorsed
rm xalan*
rm xerces*
rm xml*
cd ~
echo "Retrieving Lenya from CVS"
cvs -q -d :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.apache.org:/home/cvspublic checkout -P
cocoon-lenya
echo "Retrieving cocoon-2.1.x"
cvs -q -d :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.apache.org:/home/cvspublic checkout -P
cocoon-2.1
#build Cocooon 2.1
cd ~/cocoon-2.1
./build.sh -Dinclude.webapp.libs=yes webapp
#build lenya
cd ~/cocoon-lenya
ant reset
ant clear
ant install
cd ~/tomcat/webapps/lenya/lenya/resources
cvs -q -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bitflux.ch:/var/lib/cvs/editor co -P
bxeng
cd
echo "Starting tomcat..."
tomcatctrl start
echo "done."
I'm a little strange in that I install everything in my home directory
(/home/tomcat), but it makes management of the webapps I develop
easier.
--Dale
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Re: Cocoon Version
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Dale Christ wrote:
> All--
>
> Which version of Cocoon is reccommened against the latest Lenya CVS?
2.1.4 and CVS head are recommended.
> I'm trying to use 2.1.4, in which some things to break.
Are the issues in bugzilla?
> If I use the latest Cocoon CVS, Lenya doesn't work at all. I get the
> following initilization prolem from cocoon:
>
> Initialization Problem
>
> Message: The given container name is not unique: cocoon-portal
Strange ... I'm also using CVS head and it works quite well
(apart from the known XSLT problems) ...
Did you do "ant reset"?
Could you file a bug if the problem persists?
Thanks!
-- Andreas
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Jason Harrop <jh...@speedlegal.com>.
Yes, you can remove the style attribute (but then its not XHTML), or let authors
use it but then simply ignore it (transforming with XSLT or not using it in your
CSS selectors).
But XHTML still doesn't give you clean content, since the content models are
loose enough to give authors many ways to express the same thing.
For example, the OASIS LegalXML eContracts group is planning to use XHTML2 (now
in draft) as the basis for an XML representation of a legal contract. The May
2003 draft gives you three _places_ to mark up a series of numbered paragraphs:
1. inside a <p>
2. as a list inside a <section>
3. as a section nested in a <section>
and potentially five elements to choose from to do so (the four list types, and
<section>).
It is not desirable to provide different ways to represent the same content, and
to prevent this from happening, you need a stricter grammar than XHTML provides.
cheers,
Jason
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The layout concern is not direcly related to the choice
>>> between XHTML or another XML format. XHTML strict separates
>>> layout from content.
>>
>>
>>
>> No it does not.
>>
>> <p style="color:purple;font-size:500%">
>> boo
>> </p>
>
>
> Yes, unfortunately. I thought the style attribute wasn't
> supported by the strict doctype, but it still is.
>
>> even:
>>
>> <p class="purpleMonster"/>
>
>
> Formally, there's no difference between (a) <p class="purpleMonster">
> and (b) <purpleMonster>. The difference is that a useful schema for
> (a) is probably harder to implement.
>
>> In a way ties styling info to insofar as you need to maintain the CSS
>> class that corresponds to it. When you use descriptive XML elements,
>> you can use the local-name as your class name and pregenerate a CSS
>> template for your users to start out with (or go back to). Also there
>> are no ambiguities (what class do I enter here?? what should I put in
>> for the style attribute variable??).
>>
>> If using an XHTML editor, I would take out the style attribute from
>> the schema.
>
>
> This would certainly be a good idea.
>
> BTW, usually I'm against the XHTML doctype for content storage,
> and this discussion really helps to find more arguments :)
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>>
>> The layout concern is not direcly related to the choice
>> between XHTML or another XML format. XHTML strict separates
>> layout from content.
>
>
> No it does not.
>
> <p style="color:purple;font-size:500%">
> boo
> </p>
Yes, unfortunately. I thought the style attribute wasn't
supported by the strict doctype, but it still is.
> even:
>
> <p class="purpleMonster"/>
Formally, there's no difference between (a) <p class="purpleMonster">
and (b) <purpleMonster>. The difference is that a useful schema for
(a) is probably harder to implement.
> In a way ties styling info to insofar as you need to maintain the CSS
> class that corresponds to it. When you use descriptive XML elements, you
> can use the local-name as your class name and pregenerate a CSS template
> for your users to start out with (or go back to). Also there are no
> ambiguities (what class do I enter here?? what should I put in for the
> style attribute variable??).
>
> If using an XHTML editor, I would take out the style attribute from the
> schema.
This would certainly be a good idea.
BTW, usually I'm against the XHTML doctype for content storage,
and this discussion really helps to find more arguments :)
-- Andreas
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Cocoon Version
Posted by Dale Christ <de...@yahoo.com>.
All--
Which version of Cocoon is reccommened against the latest Lenya CVS?
I'm trying to use 2.1.4, in which some things to break.
If I use the latest Cocoon CVS, Lenya doesn't work at all. I get the
following initilization prolem from cocoon:
Initialization Problem
Message: The given container name is not unique: cocoon-portal
Description: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: The given container
name is not unique: cocoon-portal
Sender: org.apache.cocoon.servlet.CocoonServlet
Source: Cocoon Servlet
cause
java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: The given container name is not
unique: cocoon-portal
request-uri
/lenya/
stacktrace
java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: The given container name is not
unique: cocoon-portal
at
org.apache.pluto.PortletContainerServices.createReference(PortletContainerServices.java:53)
at
org.apache.pluto.PortletContainerImpl.init(PortletContainerImpl.java:101)
at
org.apache.cocoon.portal.impl.PortletPortalManager.initContainer(PortletPortalManager.java:211)
at
org.apache.cocoon.portal.impl.PortletPortalManager.initialize(PortletPortalManager.java:173)
at
org.apache.avalon.framework.container.ContainerUtil.initialize(ContainerUtil.java:282)
at
org.apache.avalon.excalibur.component.DefaultComponentFactory.newInstance(DefaultComponentFactory.java:277)
at
org.apache.avalon.excalibur.component.ThreadSafeComponentHandler.initialize(ThreadSafeComponentHandler.java:108)
at
org.apache.avalon.excalibur.component.ExcaliburComponentManager.initialize(ExcaliburComponentManager.java:522)
at
org.apache.cocoon.components.CocoonComponentManager.initialize(CocoonComponentManager.java:562)
at
org.apache.avalon.framework.container.ContainerUtil.initialize(ContainerUtil.java:282)
As always, thanks for any info...
--Dale
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
> The layout concern is not direcly related to the choice
> between XHTML or another XML format. XHTML strict separates
> layout from content.
No it does not.
<p style="color:purple;font-size:500%">
boo
</p>
even:
<p class="purpleMonster"/>
In a way ties styling info to insofar as you need to maintain the CSS
class that corresponds to it. When you use descriptive XML elements, you
can use the local-name as your class name and pregenerate a CSS template
for your users to start out with (or go back to). Also there are no
ambiguities (what class do I enter here?? what should I put in for the
style attribute variable??).
If using an XHTML editor, I would take out the style attribute from the
schema.
best,
-Rob
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
David Pinelo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I beleive it's not a good idea to let the user editing XHTML. An editor it's a
> person who must work with contents and not with the look of the content on
> the web. If you let the user to edit XHTML, the user has to know how to edit
> XHTML, and that's not the good way.
With WYSIWYG editing, the editor won't notice if he edits
XHTML or another XML format.
> One of the goals of content managment
> it's to allow user without any knowledge of HTML, XHTML or any other
> technology related with the web.
The layout concern is not direcly related to the choice
between XHTML or another XML format. XHTML strict separates
layout from content.
> One of the features I find very interesting of Lenya it's the possibility to
> work with XML: The user manage the content, and he hasn't to be worried about
> the look of the content. So if you have a good XML editor, or a good tool to
> generate a form based HTML page to edit the XML content, it will be better
> that make the user to use a WYSIWYG editor.
So for your purpose editing XML sources is more useful than
WYSIWYG XML editing?
-- Andreas
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by David Pinelo <da...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
Hi,
I beleive it's not a good idea to let the user editing XHTML. An editor it's a
person who must work with contents and not with the look of the content on
the web. If you let the user to edit XHTML, the user has to know how to edit
XHTML, and that's not the good way. One of the goals of content managment
it's to allow user without any knowledge of HTML, XHTML or any other
technology related with the web.
One of the features I find very interesting of Lenya it's the possibility to
work with XML: The user manage the content, and he hasn't to be worried about
the look of the content. So if you have a good XML editor, or a good tool to
generate a form based HTML page to edit the XML content, it will be better
that make the user to use a WYSIWYG editor.
Best regards,
David.
El Lunes, 1 de Marzo de 2004 09:25, Andreas Hartmann escribió:
> By now, I'm against including interfaces to plain XHTML editors
> in Lenya. It requires maintainence and does not support the
> "industrial strength" aspect. But it seems like this approach is
> really accepted by a lot of users ... Is the generic XML approach
> the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
> external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
> there who needs pure XML editing? :)
>
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RE: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Ethan Schroeder <et...@netnet.net>.
Unfortunately, BXE doesn't work in IE :( Epoz works in both IE and
Mozilla quite well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Stocker [mailto:chregu@bitflux.ch]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:31 AM
To: Lenya Users List
Subject: Re: Experiences with Lenya
On 3/1/04 5:26 PM, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Ethan Schroeder wrote:
>
>> I personally don't need pure XML editing. In fact, my user base
>> couldn't even begin to understand it. The goal of my project is to
>> empower anyone in our organization to edit web content, so XHTML and
>> Lenya work great for this. I can see how some people would need pure
>> XML, though.
>
>
> What I actually ment with "pure XML" is that the editor should be
> capable of arbitrary XML schemas (not only XHTML).
And BXE is able to do that ;) It needs some more configuration than with
just XHTML (which works almost out of the box for XHTML if you feed it
with the correct relaxng definitions) . But BXE was written, because we
wanted to be able to edit XML files. There are enough (X)HTML editors
out there otherwise ...
chregu
>
>> You might want to look at Xopus, which I still believe Lenya has a
>> plugin for. It is a commercial product now, though. The interface
>> is the best I've ever seen in any inline editor AND it does XML
>> opposed to just XHTML.
>
>
> Yes, Lenya works quite well with Xopus.
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
>
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--
christian stocker | Bitflux GmbH | schoeneggstrasse 5 | ch-8004 zurich
phone +41 1 240 56 70 | mobile +41 76 561 88 60 | fax +41 1 240 56 71
http://www.bitflux.ch | chregu@bitflux.ch | gnupg-keyid 0x5CE1DECB
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Christian Stocker <ch...@bitflux.ch>.
On 3/1/04 5:26 PM, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Ethan Schroeder wrote:
>
>> I personally don't need pure XML editing. In fact, my user base
>> couldn't even begin to understand it. The goal of my project is to
>> empower anyone in our organization to edit web content, so XHTML and
>> Lenya work great for this. I can see how some people would need pure
>> XML, though.
>
>
> What I actually ment with "pure XML" is that the editor
> should be capable of arbitrary XML schemas (not only XHTML).
And BXE is able to do that ;) It needs some more configuration than with
just XHTML (which works almost out of the box for XHTML if you feed it
with the correct relaxng definitions) . But BXE was written, because we
wanted to be able to edit XML files. There are enough (X)HTML editors
out there otherwise ...
chregu
>
>> You might want to look at Xopus, which I still believe Lenya has a
>> plugin for. It is a commercial product now, though. The interface is
>> the best I've ever seen in any inline editor AND it does XML opposed to
>> just XHTML.
>
>
> Yes, Lenya works quite well with Xopus.
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
christian stocker | Bitflux GmbH | schoeneggstrasse 5 | ch-8004 zurich
phone +41 1 240 56 70 | mobile +41 76 561 88 60 | fax +41 1 240 56 71
http://www.bitflux.ch | chregu@bitflux.ch | gnupg-keyid 0x5CE1DECB
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Ethan Schroeder wrote:
> I personally don't need pure XML editing. In fact, my user base
> couldn't even begin to understand it. The goal of my project is to
> empower anyone in our organization to edit web content, so XHTML and
> Lenya work great for this. I can see how some people would need pure
> XML, though.
What I actually ment with "pure XML" is that the editor
should be capable of arbitrary XML schemas (not only XHTML).
> You might want to look at Xopus, which I still believe Lenya has a
> plugin for. It is a commercial product now, though. The interface is
> the best I've ever seen in any inline editor AND it does XML opposed to
> just XHTML.
Yes, Lenya works quite well with Xopus.
-- Andreas
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RE: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Ethan Schroeder <et...@netnet.net>.
I personally don't need pure XML editing. In fact, my user base
couldn't even begin to understand it. The goal of my project is to
empower anyone in our organization to edit web content, so XHTML and
Lenya work great for this. I can see how some people would need pure
XML, though.
You might want to look at Xopus, which I still believe Lenya has a
plugin for. It is a commercial product now, though. The interface is
the best I've ever seen in any inline editor AND it does XML opposed to
just XHTML.
Ethan
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Harrop [mailto:jharrop@speedlegal.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:50 AM
To: Lenya Users List
Subject: Re: Experiences with Lenya
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Is the generic XML approach
> the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
> external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out there
> who needs pure XML editing? :)
Yes, i need pure XML editing; the alternatives aren't nice, being either
unconstrained XHTML, or making the pages database driven.
my 2 euros.
thanks,
Jason
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Jason Harrop <jh...@speedlegal.com>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Is the generic XML approach
> the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
> external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
> there who needs pure XML editing? :)
Yes, i need pure XML editing; the alternatives aren't nice, being either
unconstrained XHTML, or making the pages database driven.
my 2 euros.
thanks,
Jason
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Re: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Ethan Schroeder wrote:
[...]
> My favorite parts of lenya:
> 1.) Epoz integration. I wouldn't have considered using Lenya pre-Epoz
> integration. You guys did a fantastic job with this. I am still amazed
> that you managed to take a "binary" Zope/Python application and
> integrate it into Lenya by using XSL. Genius.
By now, I'm against including interfaces to plain XHTML editors
in Lenya. It requires maintainence and does not support the
"industrial strength" aspect. But it seems like this approach is
really accepted by a lot of users ... Is the generic XML approach
the wrong direction for a publishing system? What about supporting
external content sources with arbitrary XML? Is still anyone out
there who needs pure XML editing? :)
[...]
> 5.) XML. This is why I chose Lenya. I wanted a CMS based on XML that
> had an easy-to-use interface and browser WYSIWYG editing. Being
> XML-based, Lenya "future proofs" my project. If another developer picks
> this up in a few years, he/she can either work within the Lenya
> framework, or migrate all the XML content to another framework.
If you choose Epoz as your editor, does migrating mean transforming
to XHTML? Or do you consider switching to another editor which is
capable of editing arbitrary XML?
> Not-so-favorite parts of lenya:
> 1.) I still can't figure out how to improve the work flow for my users.
> Some people have a hard time understanding that when they edit a
> document or create a blog entry - blogging was adapted to become
> "company announcements :) - that they still have to submit it through a
> workflow (in the case of a document) or publish it (in the case of a
> blog). I am struggling to figure out how to automatically push users to
> appropriate publishing screens upon completion of content adding or
> editing.
Do you think there's a lack of documentation? I wrote quite a
lot of docs on cocoon.apache.org/lenya, but maybe it is too
developer-centered. Could a tutorial ("How to define my own
workflow?") help?
> 2.) CMSScreens (style-cms-page). Various pages designated as CMS
> Screens (like login, search, document adding, etc) use completely
> different templating to render the user interface. I wanted everything
> integrated into one look and feel, so I had to create my own
> util/page2xhtml.xsl and hack the main sitemap.xmap and main usecase.xsp
> to put these CMS Screens in my own look-and-feel.
Maybe the fallback is not used for the CMS screen files ...
I have to check this and file a bug.
[...]
Thank you for your extensive feedback!
-- Andreas
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RE: Experiences with Lenya
Posted by Ethan Schroeder <et...@netnet.net>.
I'll give my experiences with Lenya to the groups as well.
First, I think it is a terrific product, especially considering the cost
of a commercial xml-based CMS.
I am very new to XML/XSLT/Coocon, etc, so I've pretty much been banging
my head against the wall for a month to get a usable Intranet based on
Lenya out the door. But still, a little over a month to develop a
full-fledged CMS-based Intranet built on a framework I knew nothing
about? That's pretty impressive in my book. My J2EE experience to date
mainly revolved around JSP, Servlet, MVC (ala Struts), and relational
databases. My previous experience was with LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL
PHP). I have some exposure to .NET, which I find enthralling, but I'm
still a *nix OSS person for the most part. I'm still undecided about
Cocoon, but I do see the power in this approach. XML and XSLT is
growing on me, but I have never experienced such a steep learning curve
in any other technology I have learned.
That said, my Lenya experiences were negative pertaining to the general
learning curve I experienced, but this can certainly be expected. I had
a lot of problems relating to builds not working properly, etc. CVS
usually fixed most of the issues I was having. The documentation that
is out there is awesome, IMO, but there is a lot of documentation that
isn't there. People from this list have been pretty helpful in these
cases.
My favorite parts of lenya:
1.) Epoz integration. I wouldn't have considered using Lenya pre-Epoz
integration. You guys did a fantastic job with this. I am still amazed
that you managed to take a "binary" Zope/Python application and
integrate it into Lenya by using XSL. Genius.
2.) Lucene integration
3.) The Authoring/Admin interface. This is one of the best I've seen in
a web application. It seamlessly lets an author, editor, or admin
browse the site visually and add, modify, delete content. I'm still
having a problem with the menu crashing a colleague's version of Mozilla
on Linux, but I think there was a lengthy discussion about this earlier
this week that will help me fix that.
4.) Out-of-the-box css. You did a great job utilizing css to define the
look and feel, and the css was of high quality, IMHO.
5.) XML. This is why I chose Lenya. I wanted a CMS based on XML that
had an easy-to-use interface and browser WYSIWYG editing. Being
XML-based, Lenya "future proofs" my project. If another developer picks
this up in a few years, he/she can either work within the Lenya
framework, or migrate all the XML content to another framework.
Not-so-favorite parts of lenya:
1.) I still can't figure out how to improve the work flow for my users.
Some people have a hard time understanding that when they edit a
document or create a blog entry - blogging was adapted to become
"company announcements :) - that they still have to submit it through a
workflow (in the case of a document) or publish it (in the case of a
blog). I am struggling to figure out how to automatically push users to
appropriate publishing screens upon completion of content adding or
editing.
2.) CMSScreens (style-cms-page). Various pages designated as CMS
Screens (like login, search, document adding, etc) use completely
different templating to render the user interface. I wanted everything
integrated into one look and feel, so I had to create my own
util/page2xhtml.xsl and hack the main sitemap.xmap and main usecase.xsp
to put these CMS Screens in my own look-and-feel. As far as lucene
searching goes, I actually ripped out the style-cms-page and integrated
searching with my main page2xhtml.xsl template. Maybe there would have
been a better way to do these things.
I appreciate all the hard work the developers have put into Lenya. It
is truly worthy of being an Apache project.
Ethan
-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Weigel
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:08 PM
To: lenya-user@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Experiences with Lenya
Hi!
I want to give some personal experinces with lenya to the group. All
experiences
are made with SuSE Linux 8.2 and had been tested on two machines.
First I tried lenya-1.2rc2-bin. I startet jetty. I could try all the
examples.
After that I wanted to produce pdf-output from the xhtml-sites. So I
tried the
method described here at gmane (posting from the 21th feb). This did not
work
(details you can find in the other thread).
I also tried to use the bitflux editor (downloaded latest version
26.02.04).
With Mozilla 1.6 it did not work. All I got was the message:
You need JavaScript enabled. Otherwise nothing at all works here :)
This message I can not understand because js IS enabled.
After that I tried to use the epoz editor. I was able to start the
editor but
all changes to a side and including assets could not be saved. There was
no
error messages but all the content had been gone after pressing the
"save and
exit" button or nothing happend.
So I downloaded the nightly build of lenya from feb 26th and installed
the
war-file under tomcat (4.1.18). (I wanted to use lenya via tomcat
anyway). Right
now the pdf-problem is solved. I can produce pdf out of the xml/xhtml
files.
Right now it is not possible to load up assets any more. I follow the
upload
dialog and after pressing the upload-button I am redirected to the
"Overview"-site and no assets had been stored.
I also installed the epoz and the bitflux editor. For them and for the
"Form/One
Form" editing method I get the following error message:
Generic Exception
So I am not able to edit any documents any more.
These are my experiences (as beginner) with lenya. I like the idea of
the
lenya-system. (I also had been working with cocoon).
For the problems I described I have no solution so far. Maybe it is
useful to
know because other beginners have the same troubles.
bye
wolfgang
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