Fork mime4j mailing list

[Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>]

Hi,

mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2 
committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.

mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).

So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.

What do you think?

   Bernd


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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>]

Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Markus Wiederkehr
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2008-12-29, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
>>>>>> separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
>>>>>> aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
>>>>>> latter.
>>>>> james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
>>>>> for any developer to be actively interested in every area.
>>>>>
>>>>> the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
>>>>> products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>> as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
>>>>> the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
>>>>> james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
>>>>> for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
>>>>> IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
>>>>> them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
>>>>> will still be considerable intersection.
>>>>>
>>>>> it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
>>>>> and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
>>>>> to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
>>>>> right to allow it a little more space.
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> mime4j more than other products within James has a chance to develop
>>>> its own life and lifecycle. Let's support this proactively.
>>>>
>>>> We should have a formal vote, shouldn't we?
>>> perhaps
>>>
>>> i still hope a few more developers will jump into this discussion thread...
>> I don't have a strong opinion about this. For me the [mime4j] prefix
>> and a gmail filter works well enough.
>>
>> But of course it's understandable that maybe some James server
>> developers feel that Mime4j should have its own list when nearly every
>> second mail sent to server-dev is about Mime4j.
> 
> this is more about giving mime4j more space than reducing traffic on
> this list. normal business on this list has been unusually slow over
> the last few months but it's likely to hot up sooner or later.
> 
>> On the other hand I'm not sure if a separation into an independent
>> project would be such a good idea. For example as DOM support in
>> Mime4j improves it might become a good alternative to JavaMail. When
>> that happens I would like to see support for Mime4j in the Mailet API.
>> That would tie the projects together again.
> 
> i think it unlikely that the Mailet 2 API will change much more. i
> hope that this year will see work begin on a replacement Mailet 3 API.
> 
>> Also I'm still new to this project. Can someone explain to me how
>> James Server and Mime4j are related at this point? The Mailet API is
>> centered around JavaMail. Is Mime4j used anywhere else in James
>> Server?
> 
> the James project encompasses the server and several other products
> including Mime4J. Mime4j is used by several products (including JSieve
> and IMAP) that are part of the James project but are not dependent on
> the server. the server uses everything the project produces (and so is
> central). ATM all these products share the server-dev list but as
> activity justifies it, they'll probably be split out too.

It would be benefitial if mime4j would be used in the server as the core 
mail handling framework, instead of JavaMail. Only think about the 
featues introduced like shared mime parts.

On the other hand, mime4j is used standalone in non-James products as 
well, like HttpMime, so it already has a life on its own and this must 
be kept in mind as the code evolves.

AFAIK, mime4j came to James as a contribution from outside. See
   http://www.mail-archive.com/server-dev@james.apache.org/msg01985.html
which is probably the starting point for the move to ASF.

I'll start a vote.

   Bernd



> 
> - robert
> 
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> 


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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Markus Wiederkehr
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2008-12-29, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> > Folks,
>>>> >
>>>> > The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
>>>> > separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
>>>> > aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
>>>> > latter.
>>>>
>>>> james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
>>>> for any developer to be actively interested in every area.
>>>>
>>>> the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
>>>> products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>> as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
>>>> the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
>>>> james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
>>>> for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
>>>> IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
>>>> them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
>>>> will still be considerable intersection.
>>>>
>>>> it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
>>>> and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
>>>> to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
>>>> right to allow it a little more space.
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> mime4j more than other products within James has a chance to develop
>>> its own life and lifecycle. Let's support this proactively.
>>>
>>> We should have a formal vote, shouldn't we?
>>
>> perhaps
>>
>> i still hope a few more developers will jump into this discussion thread...
>
> I don't have a strong opinion about this. For me the [mime4j] prefix
> and a gmail filter works well enough.
>
> But of course it's understandable that maybe some James server
> developers feel that Mime4j should have its own list when nearly every
> second mail sent to server-dev is about Mime4j.

this is more about giving mime4j more space than reducing traffic on
this list. normal business on this list has been unusually slow over
the last few months but it's likely to hot up sooner or later.

> On the other hand I'm not sure if a separation into an independent
> project would be such a good idea. For example as DOM support in
> Mime4j improves it might become a good alternative to JavaMail. When
> that happens I would like to see support for Mime4j in the Mailet API.
> That would tie the projects together again.

i think it unlikely that the Mailet 2 API will change much more. i
hope that this year will see work begin on a replacement Mailet 3 API.

> Also I'm still new to this project. Can someone explain to me how
> James Server and Mime4j are related at this point? The Mailet API is
> centered around JavaMail. Is Mime4j used anywhere else in James
> Server?

the James project encompasses the server and several other products
including Mime4J. Mime4j is used by several products (including JSieve
and IMAP) that are part of the James project but are not dependent on
the server. the server uses everything the project produces (and so is
central). ATM all these products share the server-dev list but as
activity justifies it, they'll probably be split out too.

- robert

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Markus Wiederkehr <ma...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 2008-12-29, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> > Folks,
>>> >
>>> > The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
>>> > separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
>>> > aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
>>> > latter.
>>>
>>> james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
>>> for any developer to be actively interested in every area.
>>>
>>> the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
>>> products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
>>> project.
>>>
>>> as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
>>> the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
>>> james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
>>> for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
>>> IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
>>> them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
>>> will still be considerable intersection.
>>>
>>> it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
>>> and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
>>> to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
>>> right to allow it a little more space.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> mime4j more than other products within James has a chance to develop
>> its own life and lifecycle. Let's support this proactively.
>>
>> We should have a formal vote, shouldn't we?
>
> perhaps
>
> i still hope a few more developers will jump into this discussion thread...

I don't have a strong opinion about this. For me the [mime4j] prefix
and a gmail filter works well enough.

But of course it's understandable that maybe some James server
developers feel that Mime4j should have its own list when nearly every
second mail sent to server-dev is about Mime4j.

On the other hand I'm not sure if a separation into an independent
project would be such a good idea. For example as DOM support in
Mime4j improves it might become a good alternative to JavaMail. When
that happens I would like to see support for Mime4j in the Mailet API.
That would tie the projects together again.

Also I'm still new to this project. Can someone explain to me how
James Server and Mime4j are related at this point? The Mailet API is
centered around JavaMail. Is Mime4j used anywhere else in James
Server?

Markus

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 2008-12-29, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> > The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
>> > separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
>> > aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
>> > latter.
>>
>> james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
>> for any developer to be actively interested in every area.
>>
>> the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
>> products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
>> project.
>>
>> as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
>> the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
>> james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
>> for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
>> IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
>> them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
>> will still be considerable intersection.
>>
>> it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
>> and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
>> to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
>> right to allow it a little more space.
>
> +1
>
> mime4j more than other products within James has a chance to develop
> its own life and lifecycle. Let's support this proactively.
>
> We should have a formal vote, shouldn't we?

perhaps

i still hope a few more developers will jump into this discussion thread...

- robert

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>]

On 2008-12-29, Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Folks,
> >
> > The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
> > separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
> > aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
> > latter.
>
> james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
> for any developer to be actively interested in every area.
>
> the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
> products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
> project.
>
> as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
> the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
> james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
> for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
> IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
> them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
> will still be considerable intersection.
>
> it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
> and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
> to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
> right to allow it a little more space.

+1

mime4j more than other products within James has a chance to develop
its own life and lifecycle. Let's support this proactively.

We should have a formal vote, shouldn't we?

  Bernd

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org> wrote:

<snip>

> Folks,
>
> The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a
> separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely
> aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the
> latter.

james is a big project covering a lot of different topics. it's rare
for any developer to be actively interested in every area.

the server provides a focus for James by drawing together all the
products developed. this focus creates a core community for the
project.

as products are factored out, they start to attract use cases beyond
the core server. this helps to improve the quality of the library. the
james server-dev list is high volume. this creates a barrier to entry
for those who are interested in developing these new use cases. so
IMHO as interest develops in the libraries, it's healthy to encourage
them to develop their own communities safe in the knowledge that there
will still be considerable intersection.

it's hard to predict how active and popular FOSS projects will become
and - of course - one does not necessarily imply the other. i'm happy
to see a healthy community developing for mime4j and think the time is
right to allow it a little more space.

- robert

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>]

Bernd Fondermann wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 17:21, Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org> wrote:
>> Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2
>>> committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.
>>>
>>> mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).
>> This is true for every most of the james products (jsieve, jspf, postage).
>>
>>> So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>> -0
>>
>> I think the server-dev list is not so high in traffic to split it per
>> product.
> 
> But most of the traffic is mime4j specific nowadays. I think that this
> efforts earn their own ML, without having to prefix everything with
> [mime4j].
> 
>> I personally don't need another list, but if Markus and Oleg
>> prefer to have one so to not have to read all of the server-dev stuff
>> I'm fine.
>>
>> Is it possible to automatically subscribe server-dev people to the new
>> list? My main concern is that splitting means loosing subscriber and
>> means possibly loosing interesting lurkers and their opinions.
> 
> I don't think we should make all subscribers of server-dev@ subscribe
> to mime4j@ automagically.
> Those interested in mime4j will do - while the others won't care anyway.
> I don't see a problem here.
> 
>   Bernd
>

Folks,

The question is whether you want to encourage mime4j to evolve into a 
separate project with a community of its own or want to keep it closely 
aligned with James. A separate dev list certainly will not help with the 
latter.

Oleg


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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>]

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 17:21, Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org> wrote:
> Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
>> Hi,
>>
>> mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2
>> committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.
>>
>> mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).
>
> This is true for every most of the james products (jsieve, jspf, postage).
>
>> So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> -0
>
> I think the server-dev list is not so high in traffic to split it per
> product.

But most of the traffic is mime4j specific nowadays. I think that this
efforts earn their own ML, without having to prefix everything with
[mime4j].

> I personally don't need another list, but if Markus and Oleg
> prefer to have one so to not have to read all of the server-dev stuff
> I'm fine.
>
> Is it possible to automatically subscribe server-dev people to the new
> list? My main concern is that splitting means loosing subscriber and
> means possibly loosing interesting lurkers and their opinions.

I don't think we should make all subscribers of server-dev@ subscribe
to mime4j@ automagically.
Those interested in mime4j will do - while the others won't care anyway.
I don't see a problem here.

  Bernd

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>]

Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
> Hi,
> 
> mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2
> committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.
> 
> mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).

This is true for every most of the james products (jsieve, jspf, postage).

> So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.
> 
> What do you think?

-0

I think the server-dev list is not so high in traffic to split it per
product. I personally don't need another list, but if Markus and Oleg
prefer to have one so to not have to read all of the server-dev stuff
I'm fine.

Is it possible to automatically subscribe server-dev people to the new
list? My main concern is that splitting means loosing subscriber and
means possibly loosing interesting lurkers and their opinions.

Stefano

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Norman Maurer <no...@apache.org>]

+1
Norman

2008/12/25 Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2
>> committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.
>>
>> mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).
>>
>> So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> +1
>
> - robert
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: server-dev-help@james.apache.org
>
>

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Re: Fork mime4j mailing list

[Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> mime4j gains considerable development efforts currently. At least 2
> committers have been added to JAMES because of their ongoing work on it.
>
> mime4j is a separate product and has dedicated infra (svn, JIRA).
>
> So, I propose to create a dedicated mime4j mailing list.
>
> What do you think?

+1

- robert

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