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Posted to women@apache.org by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com> on 2005/08/08 08:06:59 UTC
Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
and I'm wondering what sort of policy we want to create on this.
Fitz I knew personally and felt very confident about. This person I
may know, but I can't tell from the email address. I'm all for being
all-inclusive, but thought I should really check with you all before
I do anything.
Danese
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
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Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
> I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who
> wishes to participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
+1
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Astrid Keßler <ke...@kess-net.de>.
> ... wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
> think about what's happened so far?
in short: nothing
The other women has a lot of work to do bevore haveing vaccation.
Don't count on me at the moment :)
Kess
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>> Danese Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> Hey David, Jean et al...
>>> ...
>>> I'd like to see at least a few non-committers participate in this
>>> initial discussion, although I'm not sure where to find them (aside
>>> from myself :-) ). How would we publicize?
>>>
>>> So far I've seen participation from myself, Jean, Susan Wu, Ted,
>>> David...wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
>>> think about what's happened so far? I know Apache is lazy consensus,
>>> and apologies for not knowing, but does that usually mean majority
>>> silence?
>>>
>>
>> It means that if there are no objections then there is nothing
>> stopping you from doing what you want.
>>
>
> If there's no perceived need to call a VOTE to approve subscribing
> non-committers, then I won't. Simple is good.
I take it back; I perceive a need to call a VOTE, if anything to have a
discrete RESULT to point back to if it's called into question. I'll post
a VOTE soon.
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>> Hey David, Jean et al...
>>
>> On 8/10/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>> <sniperoo>
>>
>>>> 1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
>>>>
>>
>> I'd like to see at least a few non-committers participate in this
>> initial discussion, although I'm not sure where to find them (aside
>> from myself :-) ). How would we publicize?
>>
>> So far I've seen participation from myself, Jean, Susan Wu, Ted,
>> David...wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
>> think about what's happened so far? I know Apache is lazy consensus,
>> and apologies for not knowing, but does that usually mean majority
>> silence?
>>
>
> It means that if there are no objections then there is nothing stopping
> you from doing what you want.
>
If there's no perceived need to call a VOTE to approve subscribing
non-committers, then I won't. Simple is good.
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
>Hey David, Jean et al...
>
>On 8/10/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
><sniperoo>
>
>
>
>>>1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
>>>
>>>
>
>I'd like to see at least a few non-committers participate in this
>initial discussion, although I'm not sure where to find them (aside
>from myself :-) ). How would we publicize?
>
>So far I've seen participation from myself, Jean, Susan Wu, Ted,
>David...wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
>think about what's happened so far? I know Apache is lazy consensus,
>and apologies for not knowing, but does that usually mean majority
>silence?
>
>
It means that if there are no objections then there is nothing stopping
you from doing what you want.
>I totally know that your advice was very well-meant, David, and I'm
>not implying that Jean is a newbie...so please *nobody* take this the
>wrong way but...
>
>I'm wondering whether that style of public correction is the sort of
>thing that some newbies(some women certainly included) might find
>off-putting. Maybe if we as a group do something as small as noticing
>opportunities in our daily working here to be more supportive of those
>who are learning the Apache Way. Advice such as "offer behavioral
>correction in personal off-list emails first" might be on that list
>:-)...And if we had more non-committers here we'd certainly trip over
>those types of sensitivites more often.
>
>
This does have some potential for bad behavior completely
unmonitorable. By that I mean someone rails on a potential user off
list and there is no way to know it happened. The person just ups and
leaves.
I do understand the concern though. I just remember dealing with a
couple real strong personalities that required some tempering. Off list
communication could get nasty in those cases. In some respects the list
does provide a certain amount of positive peer pressure to maintain a
certain amount of decorum.
Re: Wiki
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
> That topic didn't get much time here for discussion
> and other people's opinion. Please let the world
> turn a little bit, and we will get a better result.
Haha. Yes, I have learned in my time here that things in ASF-land tend to
move a little more slowly, and it's better to let ideas/proposals
percolate a little bit.
Re: Wiki
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
> >Excellent! Thank you so much :-). Do we need to bribe someone to
> >instantiate for us? I read the documentation and it was heavy on "ask
> >your PMC or be prepared to wait a long time"...
That is because Infrastructure is completely overwhelmed.
So any request for any resource needs to be carried out
and supported by the project.
> I made the request, but seeing as we don't have a PMC we are relying on
> some good graces
That topic didn't get much time here for discussion
and other people's opinion. Please let the world
turn a little bit, and we will get a better result.
Is the overhead in creating and managing a separate
wiki really worth the effort? I reckon that it would
be better to just use the wiki.apache.org/general
-David
Re: Wiki (was Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to
women@)
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
>Excellent! Thank you so much :-). Do we need to bribe someone to
>instantiate for us? I read the documentation and it was heavy on "ask
>your PMC or be prepared to wait a long time"...
>
>Danese
>
I made the request, but seeing as we don't have a PMC we are relying on
some good graces
Re: Wiki (was Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@)
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
Excellent! Thank you so much :-). Do we need to bribe someone to
instantiate for us? I read the documentation and it was heavy on "ask
your PMC or be prepared to wait a long time"...
Danese
On 8/10/05, Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org> wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
> >It looks to me like all the project wikis require a login (and in fact
> >a separate login for each wiki)...so, should be easy, right?
> >
> >:-)
> >
> >
>
> Its a login to edit, but in theory it should be easy.
>
>
Re: Wiki (was Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to
women@)
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
>It looks to me like all the project wikis require a login (and in fact
>a separate login for each wiki)...so, should be easy, right?
>
>:-)
>
>
Its a login to edit, but in theory it should be easy.
Re: Wiki (was Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@)
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
It looks to me like all the project wikis require a login (and in fact
a separate login for each wiki)...so, should be easy, right?
:-)
On 8/10/05, Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org> wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
> >Great! Could we request a women@ wiki page so we can capture what we
> >learn? Should we wait until we've passed the "whether to be a public
> >list" question? I'm just hating the idea of capturing in Stickies,
> >since now sometimes I'm using 3 separate laptops (each with different
> >OSes)...
> >
> >
>
> :) yet another person who shares my plight...
>
> We might be able to set it up with a login required for that section. I
> can check.
>
>
Wiki (was Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@)
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
>Great! Could we request a women@ wiki page so we can capture what we
>learn? Should we wait until we've passed the "whether to be a public
>list" question? I'm just hating the idea of capturing in Stickies,
>since now sometimes I'm using 3 separate laptops (each with different
>OSes)...
>
>
:) yet another person who shares my plight...
We might be able to set it up with a login required for that section. I
can check.
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
Great! Could we request a women@ wiki page so we can capture what we
learn? Should we wait until we've passed the "whether to be a public
list" question? I'm just hating the idea of capturing in Stickies,
since now sometimes I'm using 3 separate laptops (each with different
OSes)...
Danese
On 8/10/05, Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org> wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
> >I realize this is very "Open Source Tools" of me, but is there a wiki
> >capability at Apache? Or could I start a workspace somewhere to work
> >in common on a list of things we notice as we discuss here?
> >
> >
>
> Yes.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/general/
>
>
>
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
>I realize this is very "Open Source Tools" of me, but is there a wiki
>capability at Apache? Or could I start a workspace somewhere to work
>in common on a list of things we notice as we discuss here?
>
>
Yes.
http://wiki.apache.org/general/
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
I realize this is very "Open Source Tools" of me, but is there a wiki
capability at Apache? Or could I start a workspace somewhere to work
in common on a list of things we notice as we discuss here?
Danese
On 8/10/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@bristowhill.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > I'm wondering whether that style of public correction is the sort of
> > thing that some newbies(some women certainly included) might find
> > off-putting. Maybe if we as a group do something as small as noticing
> > opportunities in our daily working here to be more supportive of those
> > who are learning the Apache Way. Advice such as "offer behavioral
> > correction in personal off-list emails first" might be on that list
> > :-)...And if we had more non-committers here we'd certainly trip over
> > those types of sensitivites more often.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> David is right that some care is needed -- and I'm actually aware of the
> excellent policy he mentioned. It would, for example, keep a private PMC
> discussion from being reposted willy nilly to a public list, and that's
> an important safeguard. And Danese is also right that she and I have had
> enough discussions that I felt comfortable enough to post.
>
> I'm actually comfortable being corrected in public -- hey, I grew up
> with 3 brothers! :-)
>
> However, this is an example of something that could intimidate somebody
> who lacks confidence. As we invite in non-committers (and I hope the
> VOTE to allow that will pass), we'll need to be extra sensitive to how
> we address any misbehaviors. I like Danese's suggestion of first using
> personal off-list emails. (Incidently, non-committers won't likely have
> subscriptions to private lists, for which this is an issue.)
>
> -jean
>
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Aug 11, 2005, at 3:00 AM, David Crossley wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
>
>> I'm working on a blog post related to the general topic of women and
>> open source. If there are no objections, I'd like to mention the
>> list in that post.
>>
>
> I reckon that is too rushed Ted.
Ok, that is fine.
Ted
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
> >I think we won't have trouble finding them! :-) A woman on derby-
> >dev has already asked me if she can join. In another post, Ted
> >Leung mentioned he knows somebody he would like to invite. I think
> >invitations extended to those we know and posted to the lists in
> >which we normally participate would get the word out quite nicely.
>
> I'm working on a blog post related to the general topic of women and
> open source. If there are no objections, I'd like to mention the
> list in that post.
I reckon that is too rushed Ted.
We need to sort out the exact scope. Probably an
informative parapragh for the ezmlm mail commands:
women-info@ women-faq@
So that people know exactly what is the topic.
We don't want confusion here.
Also the list is not yet open for the world at large.
-David
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Aug 10, 2005, at 11:40 AM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> I think we won't have trouble finding them! :-) A woman on derby-
> dev has already asked me if she can join. In another post, Ted
> Leung mentioned he knows somebody he would like to invite. I think
> invitations extended to those we know and posted to the lists in
> which we normally participate would get the word out quite nicely.
I'm working on a blog post related to the general topic of women and
open source. If there are no objections, I'd like to mention the
list in that post.
Ted
Re: on-list versus off-list discussions
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
<vast snippage>
> I would rather that all such things happen on-list.
> These are perfect examples which help to educate all
> of the list participants and leverage the power of
> open-source discussions. If we do it all off-list, then
> everyone else is denied the opportunity to learn and
> the few who care will become burnt out with off-list
> personal support.
I completely agree that it's important to educate the list, but it's
possible to separate the group lesson from the individual correction,
and I think it's important to do so for those we want to coax along and,
incidently, for users as well. I don't think it's as important for
developers, but that's just my opinion.
Let's take a simple, hypothetical example. Martha is a student X who has
written an X that is due tomorrow, but it doesn't do the right thing. In
a panic, she posts her problem to three different mail lists, hoping
that someone, *anyone* will notice her problem, take pity, and help her.
But we want to discourage posting to multiple lists. We could handle
this a couple of ways.
One way we could handle this is to respond directly to Martha's post,
suggesting (perhaps even kindly) that it isn't appropriate to ping
multiple lists and it would be better to decide on just one list.
I can predict Martha's possible responses. First, she'll take the public
reprimand personally. Second, she'll be mortified because she knows this
mail list is archived and her reprimand will live in full view forever,
and she'll glumly sigh, "Now everyone can see I screwed up!" Third, her
homework won't get turned in on time because everyone is spending time
talking about how she shouldn't have posted to multiple lists rather
than helping her resolve her problem. Finally, her fears are realized
when 6 months later somebody else commits a similar infraction and
somebody helpfully posts the link back to the original "policy" with
Martha at the center.
Here's a suggestion of another way to handle it, that could use
refinement I'm sure. A new post, completely separate from Martha's
original post, reminds the list that it's far better to post a question
to *one* list. That new post can accommodate any amount of discussion,
refinement, and whatnot, and it then becomes the canonical lesson for
others to reference.
Speaking personally, I might then contact Martha off-list and say "Hey,
I know you're in a bind. Instead of posting to lists A, B, and C, given
the problem you described I'd start with list B if I were you. If that
doesn't work out, ping list C with anything you learned from list B."
Martha still might not get her homework turned in on time, but hopefully
she'll be focused on resolving her problem with X and won't be
sidetracked by the public reprimand.
> Those off-list conversations can also become entangled,
> whereas if it was on-list then other participants can
> help to correct any wonkiness.
The more entangled, the more important it is to keep the working out of
the issue on-list, but without a named individual at the center if at
all possible.
In 20 years of software development, I've seen that 9 times out of 10 a
woman will more likely take something personally than a man will. Or
maybe it's just that women are more likely to discuss it.
Just my opinion,
-jean
p.s. periodically I do get off-list email from posters asking if there's
any way to remove a post from the archives. The "Now everyone can see I
screwed up!" syndrome.
on-list versus off-list discussions
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
(Changed the Subject to something relevant.
This helps immensely when we need to search the
archives the glean stuff for documentation.)
...
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
> >David Crossley wrote:
> >>Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> >>
> >>>2) Let's start the discussion
> >>>...
> >>>I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board. Danese,
> >>>I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since you named me
> >>>on it, it's fair game:
> >>
> >>I do this when other people cross-post from private
> >>discussions, so i had better be consistent:
> >>http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential
> >>One should ask first.
> >
> >Jean, for the record...its okay :-). David, since Jean and I have had
> >a few conversations F2F about this topic she correctly felt
> >comfortable enough to assume she could post.
> >
> >And this mini-advice episode on mail list ettiquette is interesting to
> >me. Jean strikes me as a very polite woman who had built some common
> >ground with me (and she gives her justification in the fact that I
> >originally sent the mail to the BOD in both of our names).
> >
> >I totally know that your advice was very well-meant, David, and I'm
> >not implying that Jean is a newbie...so please *nobody* take this the
> >wrong way but...
Actually, in that whole posting from me i was
deliberately (not primarily, but partially)
using some example situations to start figuring
out the best way to communicate.
I also did little things like using the word "one"
instead of "you". I have found the term "you"
to be very confronting to people, so i try to
avoid being personal and instead turn it around
to be "we" or "one".
> >I'm wondering whether that style of public correction is the sort of
> >thing that some newbies(some women certainly included) might find
> >off-putting. Maybe if we as a group do something as small as noticing
> >opportunities in our daily working here to be more supportive of those
> >who are learning the Apache Way. Advice such as "offer behavioral
> >correction in personal off-list emails first" might be on that list
> >:-)...And if we had more non-committers here we'd certainly trip over
> >those types of sensitivites more often.
>
> David is right that some care is needed -- and I'm actually aware of the
> excellent policy he mentioned. It would, for example, keep a private PMC
> discussion from being reposted willy nilly to a public list, and that's
> an important safeguard. And Danese is also right that she and I have had
> enough discussions that I felt comfortable enough to post.
>
> I'm actually comfortable being corrected in public -- hey, I grew up
> with 3 brothers! :-)
>
> However, this is an example of something that could intimidate somebody
> who lacks confidence. As we invite in non-committers (and I hope the
> VOTE to allow that will pass), we'll need to be extra sensitive to how
> we address any misbehaviors. I like Danese's suggestion of first using
> personal off-list emails. (Incidently, non-committers won't likely have
> subscriptions to private lists, for which this is an issue.)
I would rather that all such things happen on-list.
These are perfect examples which help to educate all
of the list participants and leverage the power of
open-source discussions. If we do it all off-list, then
everyone else is denied the opportunity to learn and
the few who care will become burnt out with off-list
personal support.
Those off-list conversations can also become entangled,
whereas if it was on-list then other participants can
help to correct any wonkiness.
We are also bound to repeat the situation, because
no-one else heard about it.
Perhaps the very first time that a newcomer does
something out-of-order, then one of us should try
to correct them off-list. No, immediately that i
think that, i am discounting it. It gives newcomers
the impression that off-list discussion is the way,
whereas, in my opinion, it is a doomed method of
communication.
The art is that we need to have ways to do it
with kindness an good intentions. Other participants
also need to quickly support, by saying things like
"oh thanks, i didn't know that either" and also by
sympathising with the receiver.
-David
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
> Hey David, Jean et al...
>
> On 8/10/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> <sniperoo>
>
>>>1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
>
> I'd like to see at least a few non-committers participate in this
> initial discussion, although I'm not sure where to find them (aside
> from myself :-) ). How would we publicize?
I think we won't have trouble finding them! :-) A woman on derby-dev has
already asked me if she can join. In another post, Ted Leung mentioned
he knows somebody he would like to invite. I think invitations extended
to those we know and posted to the lists in which we normally
participate would get the word out quite nicely.
> So far I've seen participation from myself, Jean, Susan Wu, Ted,
> David...wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
> think about what's happened so far? I know Apache is lazy consensus,
> and apologies for not knowing, but does that usually mean majority
> silence?
Unless somebody else beats me to it I'll call a VOTE later today to
approve adding non-committers to this list, making it clear that
subscriptions will continue to be moderated until participants on this
list decide to change that.
For the voting process,
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management says "When
coordination is required, decisions are taken with a lazy consensus
approach: a few positive votes with no negative vote is enough to get
going."
Mostly we want to give anyone who doesn't agree with this approach an
opportunity to voice their concerns. If nobody voices concerns, then we
simply proceed.
>
>>>2) Let's start the discussion
>>> ...
>>>I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board. Danese,
>>>I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since you named me
>>>on it, it's fair game:
>>
>>I do this when other people cross-post from private
>>discussions, so i had better be consistent:
>>http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential
>>One should ask first.
>
>
> Jean, for the record...its okay :-). David, since Jean and I have had
> a few conversations F2F about this topic she correctly felt
> comfortable enough to assume she could post.
>
> And this mini-advice episode on mail list ettiquette is interesting to
> me. Jean strikes me as a very polite woman who had built some common
> ground with me (and she gives her justification in the fact that I
> originally sent the mail to the BOD in both of our names).
>
> I totally know that your advice was very well-meant, David, and I'm
> not implying that Jean is a newbie...so please *nobody* take this the
> wrong way but...
>
> I'm wondering whether that style of public correction is the sort of
> thing that some newbies(some women certainly included) might find
> off-putting. Maybe if we as a group do something as small as noticing
> opportunities in our daily working here to be more supportive of those
> who are learning the Apache Way. Advice such as "offer behavioral
> correction in personal off-list emails first" might be on that list
> :-)...And if we had more non-committers here we'd certainly trip over
> those types of sensitivites more often.
>
> <snip>
David is right that some care is needed -- and I'm actually aware of the
excellent policy he mentioned. It would, for example, keep a private PMC
discussion from being reposted willy nilly to a public list, and that's
an important safeguard. And Danese is also right that she and I have had
enough discussions that I felt comfortable enough to post.
I'm actually comfortable being corrected in public -- hey, I grew up
with 3 brothers! :-)
However, this is an example of something that could intimidate somebody
who lacks confidence. As we invite in non-committers (and I hope the
VOTE to allow that will pass), we'll need to be extra sensitive to how
we address any misbehaviors. I like Danese's suggestion of first using
personal off-list emails. (Incidently, non-committers won't likely have
subscriptions to private lists, for which this is an issue.)
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
Hey David, Jean et al...
On 8/10/05, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
<sniperoo>
> > 1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
I'd like to see at least a few non-committers participate in this
initial discussion, although I'm not sure where to find them (aside
from myself :-) ). How would we publicize?
So far I've seen participation from myself, Jean, Susan Wu, Ted,
David...wondering what the other women automatically subscribed here
think about what's happened so far? I know Apache is lazy consensus,
and apologies for not knowing, but does that usually mean majority
silence?
> > 2) Let's start the discussion
> >
> > >But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we want to
> > >encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we suggest a
> > >list of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead? What is
> > >the purpose of this particular list? Is it to oversee development of
> > >these initiatives or is it to just provide a forum where women can speak
> > >to one another in a relatively comfortable environment?
> >
> > I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board. Danese,
> > I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since you named me
> > on it, it's fair game:
>
> I do this when other people cross-post from private
> discussions, so i had better be consistent:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential
> One should ask first.
Jean, for the record...its okay :-). David, since Jean and I have had
a few conversations F2F about this topic she correctly felt
comfortable enough to assume she could post.
And this mini-advice episode on mail list ettiquette is interesting to
me. Jean strikes me as a very polite woman who had built some common
ground with me (and she gives her justification in the fact that I
originally sent the mail to the BOD in both of our names).
I totally know that your advice was very well-meant, David, and I'm
not implying that Jean is a newbie...so please *nobody* take this the
wrong way but...
I'm wondering whether that style of public correction is the sort of
thing that some newbies(some women certainly included) might find
off-putting. Maybe if we as a group do something as small as noticing
opportunities in our daily working here to be more supportive of those
who are learning the Apache Way. Advice such as "offer behavioral
correction in personal off-list emails first" might be on that list
:-)...And if we had more non-committers here we'd certainly trip over
those types of sensitivites more often.
<snip>
> > >Our first pass at goals would be:
> > >
> > >-raise awareness to make user groups especially more friendly (there is
> > >anecdotal evidence that some users are hesitant to post or to ask offline
> > >questions because of flames)
> > >-encourage more women developers to join Apache and to STAY
> > >-develop ways for less technically confident people to contribute in
> > >needed ways (yes, this might mean documentation and instructional
> > >materials, both user and developer oriented)
> >
> > I agree with all these goals.
> >
> > I also realize that some of these goals cross the genders, especially
> > the first and the third points. It doesn't bother me that work in these
> > areas might also benefit men -- in fact, I think that'd be terrific. But
> > if we focus on women (instead of the whole world) then we're more likely
> > to make measurable progress.
>
> Let us hope so. I must say that i am one of those
> people who tried to get a broader focus. My reasoning
> was that the issues are not particular to women and
> so would be better discussed in a wider forum such
> as community@.
>
> However, Jean's paragraph above helped me to see that
> perhaps this approach will work. We should add that
> clarification to the mission statement of this list.
Agree with this, most certainly. Mission needs to make clear that the
focus on women is in no way intended to be discriminatory or divisive,
but rather is intended to start the effort with a everyone welcome
list membership and a well-defined primary goal of attracting more
women to Apache become contributors and stay at Apache which will
hopefully offer methods and benefits to wider community-outreach.
<snip, snip...>
Danese
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> I'm going to resist my normal mode, which is so succinct I have
> discovered it results in misunderstandings.
That does not necessarily mean that you should change
your style, rather that we need to make it clear to
newcomers that people are extremely busy and so are
sometimes overly concise. Somewhere in the middle
is optimum. That issue arose on community@ yesterday.
I volunteered to start a document about such tips.
Both lists can contribute to it.
> But to keep this email
> better organized, I split it into two topics:
>
> 1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
> 2) Let's start the discussion
>
>
> 1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
[ snip ]
> I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who
> wishes to participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
Yes, and the list membership can deal with any
nastiness that might appear as a result of removing
the subscription moderation.
> 2) Let's start the discussion
>
> >But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we want to
> >encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we suggest a
> >list of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead? What is
> >the purpose of this particular list? Is it to oversee development of
> >these initiatives or is it to just provide a forum where women can speak
> >to one another in a relatively comfortable environment?
>
> I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board. Danese,
> I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since you named me
> on it, it's fair game:
I do this when other people cross-post from private
discussions, so i had better be consistent:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential
One should ask first.
> >So I've been hearing LOTS of feedback from my 5 minutes of fame during
> >the lightning talks. There seems to be some interest in organizing an
> >"Apache Women" mail list and group. I've heard from both men and women
> >and there seems to be interest. Especially in the Derby project there is
> >interest.
> >
> >How would all of you feel if Jean and I started to try to organize such a
> >thing?
> >
> >Our first pass at goals would be:
> >
> >-raise awareness to make user groups especially more friendly (there is
> >anecdotal evidence that some users are hesitant to post or to ask offline
> >questions because of flames)
> >-encourage more women developers to join Apache and to STAY
> >-develop ways for less technically confident people to contribute in
> >needed ways (yes, this might mean documentation and instructional
> >materials, both user and developer oriented)
>
> I agree with all these goals.
>
> I also realize that some of these goals cross the genders, especially
> the first and the third points. It doesn't bother me that work in these
> areas might also benefit men -- in fact, I think that'd be terrific. But
> if we focus on women (instead of the whole world) then we're more likely
> to make measurable progress.
Let us hope so. I must say that i am one of those
people who tried to get a broader focus. My reasoning
was that the issues are not particular to women and
so would be better discussed in a wider forum such
as community@.
However, Jean's paragraph above helped me to see that
perhaps this approach will work. We should add that
clarification to the mission statement of this list.
[ snip ]
> Finally, I'd like this list to be a forum where women can feel
> comfortable talking to each other.
Sure. We all just need to lead by example.
-David
> It might also actively work on some
> of the initiatives we're interested in and involve the non-members and
> non-committers.
>
> -Jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Aug 8, 2005, at 9:14 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> 1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
>
> susan wu wrote:
>
>>> Jean Anderson wrote:
>>> Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list.
>>> Also, if any problems should occur, subscriptions are easily
>>> revoked.
>>>
>> I understood the purpose of this list to first ascertain and agree
>> what our goals are for this list, then open it up to a broader
>> audience. I think current apache members are fine to add right now.
>>
>
> I agree we need to work some goals out first; that's why I said
> "Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list."
> However, I think members is too small of a group:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>
> In fact, we'd have to kick me out of the discussion.
>
> Apache committers would be a larger group, especially if we include
> the contributors at the bottom of this page who aren't actual
> committers on any project:
> http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
>
> At least I'd now qualify. :-)
>
> I'm not trying to give you -- or anyone -- a hard time. One of the
> women I work with is a contributor on the Derby project, though not
> a committer. (In fact, she filed a CLA and is on the list at the
> bottom of Jim's page.) She is eager to subscribe, but I told her to
> give us a chance to get this under way.
>
> I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who
> wishes to participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
I think that at a minimum, the discussion should be open to ASF
committers, but I'd prefer to have any person who is motivated enough
to subscribe.
>
>
> 2) Let's start the discussion
>
>
>> But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we
>> want to encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we
>> suggest a list of programs / initiatives we can develop and
>> spearhead? What is the purpose of this particular list? Is it to
>> oversee development of these initiatives or is it to just provide
>> a forum where women can speak to one another in a relatively
>> comfortable environment?
>>
>
> I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board.
> Danese, I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since
> you named me on it, it's fair game:
>
>
>> So I've been hearing LOTS of feedback from my 5 minutes of fame
>> during the lightning talks. There seems to be some interest in
>> organizing an "Apache Women" mail list and group. I've heard
>> from both men and women and there seems to be interest.
>> Especially in the Derby project there is interest.
>> How would all of you feel if Jean and I started to try to
>> organize such a thing?
>> Our first pass at goals would be:
>> -raise awareness to make user groups especially more friendly
>> (there is anecdotal evidence that some users are hesitant to post
>> or to ask offline questions because of flames)
>> -encourage more women developers to join Apache and to STAY
>> -develop ways for less technically confident people to contribute
>> in needed ways (yes, this might mean documentation and
>> instructional materials, both user and developer oriented)
>>
>
> I agree with all these goals.
>
> I also realize that some of these goals cross the genders,
> especially the first and the third points. It doesn't bother me
> that work in these areas might also benefit men -- in fact, I think
> that'd be terrific. But if we focus on women (instead of the whole
> world) then we're more likely to make measurable progress.
I was talking about the whole women@ story with my manager, who
happens to be a woman, and who has helped sensitize me to some of the
issues that some women have with open source projects. One thing
that she mentioned to me was that on the linuxchix mailing list, men
subscribe there and ask questions (presumably due to the environment).
>
> Does everyone currently subscribed to this list agree with these
> goals? Do you disagree with them?
> Are there goals that should be listed that are not?
>
> Back up to Susan Wu's points again, and I'd like to draw out this one:
>
>> Should we suggest a list of programs / initiatives we can develop
>> and spearhead?
>>
>
> I think we could develop a list over time, and that list might help
> some of our "target audience" work successfully on specific projects.
>
> Here's an example we could toss out on its ear, but it's fresh in
> my mind as something real.
>
> The co-worker I mentioned above (who, incidentally is also named
> Susan) recently developed documentation for the Derby eclipse
> plugin to be hosted on the Derby web site. And she produced a patch
> for the Derby web site containing that documentation. As part of
> this, she needed to learn both forrest, which she had already
> worked with a little, and subversion, which she hadn't worked with
> before. This was a terrific learning experience for her, her patch
> was successful, and I've encouraged her to do a writeup for new
> users on how to produce a patch for the Derby web site. (As an
> aside, I've been looking for ways to encourage Derby contributors/
> committers to update the web site.)
>
> Now I wouldn't impose a "how to update the derby web site" on
> another list. :-) But I think what Susan learned -- how to produce
> a subversion patch for an apache forrest-based web site -- could be
> translated to other projects and help others contribute. And it
> definitely might speed somebody else up the learning curve.
>
> I picked out a specifically technical project for this example
> because that's the area I'm interested in, but I wouldn't suggest
> that the list of programs / initiatives be necessarily limited to
> technical nuts&bolts.
One thing that I am seeing in your example is what I would call a
"success story". How did someone figure out how to find their place/
a place to contribute. This is often hard for people to do, and I
think that more examples/case studies could help others imagine how
they might find their way.
>
> What are other programs/initiatives others like to see?
I'd be curious if there are things that could be learned from
linuxchix and/or debian-women that could be implemented at Apache.
Ted
re: who
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
My apologies - I certainly didn't mean to disclude committers. I too need
to learn to be less succinct, as it has consistently led to
misunderstanding in these forums.
:)
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
susan wu wrote:
>
> I don't mind opening the list up to the general public at some point,
> but the original charter suggested by Noel, that we all agreed to,
I don't recall this, at least not precisely. I remember Noel making
some comments, but I don't recall any 'okey, we're going to do as Noel
suggests and no other way.' Would you please (with Noel's permission)
post 'Noel's charter' that 'we all agreed to' ? It's probably a failing
in my memory and no more, but if there's a page we're all working from,
it makes sense (to me) for it to be where we can all see/refer to it.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
susan wu wrote:
>>
>> I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who
>> wishes to participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
>
> I don't mind opening the list up to the general public at some point,
> but the original charter suggested by Noel, that we all agreed to, was
> that we were going to do this incrementally. First, that we were going
> to come to mutual conclusion and agreement as to what we wanted to
> accomplish, and start laying down some structure around how we wanted to
> do this.
> Then, after we had some direction as to how we would present this to the
> general public would we begin soliciting a broader list community.
>
> I know everyone is very eager to broaden the scope, but again, my +1 was
> for Noel's compromised suggestion.
>
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. :-) Down the road, after we have
established goals, I'd like to see the list made public; i.e., anyone
can subscribe without subscriptions being moderated. We aren't there yet.
For now, subscriptions are moderated -- and this is good. What I'm
suggesting is that we allow subscriptions even by non-members and
non-committers.
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
>
> I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who wishes to
> participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
I don't mind opening the list up to the general public at some point, but
the original charter suggested by Noel, that we all agreed to, was that we
were going to do this incrementally. First, that we were going to come to
mutual conclusion and agreement as to what we wanted to accomplish, and
start laying down some structure around how we wanted to do this.
Then, after we had some direction as to how we would present this to the
general public would we begin soliciting a broader list community.
I know everyone is very eager to broaden the scope, but again, my +1 was
for Noel's compromised suggestion.
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
I'm going to resist my normal mode, which is so succinct I have
discovered it results in misunderstandings. But to keep this email
better organized, I split it into two topics:
1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
2) Let's start the discussion
1) Who should participate in this initial discussion?
susan wu wrote:
>> Jean Anderson wrote:
>> Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list.
>> Also, if any problems should occur, subscriptions are easily revoked.
>
> I understood the purpose of this list to first ascertain and agree what
> our goals are for this list, then open it up to a broader audience. I
> think current apache members are fine to add right now.
I agree we need to work some goals out first; that's why I said "Down
the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list." However, I
think members is too small of a group:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
In fact, we'd have to kick me out of the discussion.
Apache committers would be a larger group, especially if we include the
contributors at the bottom of this page who aren't actual committers on
any project:
http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
At least I'd now qualify. :-)
I'm not trying to give you -- or anyone -- a hard time. One of the women
I work with is a contributor on the Derby project, though not a
committer. (In fact, she filed a CLA and is on the list at the bottom of
Jim's page.) She is eager to subscribe, but I told her to give us a
chance to get this under way.
I would like to suggest that we open this discussion to anyone who
wishes to participate, whether they be a member, a committer, or not.
2) Let's start the discussion
> But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we want to
> encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we suggest a
> list of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead? What is
> the purpose of this particular list? Is it to oversee development of
> these initiatives or is it to just provide a forum where women can speak
> to one another in a relatively comfortable environment?
I'd like to start by reposting what Danese email sent the board. Danese,
I hope you don't mind me posting this. I'm figuring since you named me
on it, it's fair game:
> So I've been hearing LOTS of feedback from my 5 minutes of fame during the lightning talks. There seems to be some interest in organizing an "Apache Women" mail list and group. I've heard from both men and women and there seems to be interest. Especially in the Derby project there is interest.
>
> How would all of you feel if Jean and I started to try to organize such a thing?
>
> Our first pass at goals would be:
>
> -raise awareness to make user groups especially more friendly (there is anecdotal evidence that some users are hesitant to post or to ask offline questions because of flames)
> -encourage more women developers to join Apache and to STAY
> -develop ways for less technically confident people to contribute in needed ways (yes, this might mean documentation and instructional materials, both user and developer oriented)
I agree with all these goals.
I also realize that some of these goals cross the genders, especially
the first and the third points. It doesn't bother me that work in these
areas might also benefit men -- in fact, I think that'd be terrific. But
if we focus on women (instead of the whole world) then we're more likely
to make measurable progress.
Does everyone currently subscribed to this list agree with these goals?
Do you disagree with them?
Are there goals that should be listed that are not?
Back up to Susan Wu's points again, and I'd like to draw out this one:
> Should we suggest a list of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead?
I think we could develop a list over time, and that list might help some
of our "target audience" work successfully on specific projects.
Here's an example we could toss out on its ear, but it's fresh in my
mind as something real.
The co-worker I mentioned above (who, incidentally is also named Susan)
recently developed documentation for the Derby eclipse plugin to be
hosted on the Derby web site. And she produced a patch for the Derby web
site containing that documentation. As part of this, she needed to learn
both forrest, which she had already worked with a little, and
subversion, which she hadn't worked with before. This was a terrific
learning experience for her, her patch was successful, and I've
encouraged her to do a writeup for new users on how to produce a patch
for the Derby web site. (As an aside, I've been looking for ways to
encourage Derby contributors/committers to update the web site.)
Now I wouldn't impose a "how to update the derby web site" on another
list. :-) But I think what Susan learned -- how to produce a subversion
patch for an apache forrest-based web site -- could be translated to
other projects and help others contribute. And it definitely might speed
somebody else up the learning curve.
I picked out a specifically technical project for this example because
that's the area I'm interested in, but I wouldn't suggest that the list
of programs / initiatives be necessarily limited to technical nuts&bolts.
What are other programs/initiatives others like to see?
Finally, I'd like this list to be a forum where women can feel
comfortable talking to each other. It might also actively work on some
of the initiatives we're interested in and involve the non-members and
non-committers.
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
susan wu wrote:
> But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we want to
> encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we suggest a
> list of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead? What is
> the purpose of this particular list? Is it to oversee development of
> these initiatives or is it to just provide a forum where women can
> speak to one another in a relatively comfortable environment?
I guess the first question to ask is what would attract more women to be
involved?
The next question to ask would be if there is one thing you would change
about the ASF what would it be and why?
Different groups have their "notable women" page where the women who
make consistent contributions can get recognition. Is this something
that would help?
I am more than willing to help phrase initiatives in a way that would be
more likely to be accepted. I personally am clueless as to how to
encourage women to participate more. I just operate under a basic
philosophy that people are people, and I treat them all equally. It
works for my office environment, but I have noticed that my male
employees won't hesitate to use a mailing list while my female employees
do hesitate. I don't think it has to do with experience on the
particular mailing lists as it does with more of a general distrust.
When I did ask about it, she couldn't really give a reason other than
just general trepidation.
It could be that I asked her to join the list, but she didn't have
anything to post right away. If she saw the way that some of the people
related to each other because of the familiarity, she might have assumed
that they would joke the same way with her right away. It's almost like
going to a large family reunion and not knowing anyone there. It can be
scary if you don't have a friend or family group to introduce you to
everyone and break the ice.
At least these are my observations, from a male viewpoint.
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
>
> Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list.
> Also, if any problems should occur, subscriptions are easily revoked.
>
I understood the purpose of this list to first ascertain and agree what
our goals are for this list, then open it up to a broader audience. I
think current apache members are fine to add right now.
But let's start this discussion - what are some of the ways we want to
encourage more female participation in the ASF? Should we suggest a list
of programs / initiatives we can develop and spearhead? What is the
purpose of this particular list? Is it to oversee development of these
initiatives or is it to just provide a forum where women can speak to one
another in a relatively comfortable environment?
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote:
>
> On Aug 8, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> fyi, I just moderated in David Crossley (crossley@apache.org) and Ted
>> Leung (twleung@sauria.com).
>>
>> requests from people I don't know include:
>> bloritsch@d-haven.org
>
>
> FYI, This is Berin Loritsch, who is a member and works in the Cocoon,
> XML, and Jakarta projects.
>
thanks, Ted, I moderated him in.
-jean
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Aug 8, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> fyi, I just moderated in David Crossley (crossley@apache.org) and
> Ted Leung (twleung@sauria.com).
>
> requests from people I don't know include:
> bloritsch@d-haven.org
FYI, This is Berin Loritsch, who is a member and works in the Cocoon,
XML, and Jakarta projects.
Ted
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
fyi, I just moderated in David Crossley (crossley@apache.org) and Ted
Leung (twleung@sauria.com).
requests from people I don't know include:
bloritsch@d-haven.org
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>> and I'm wondering what sort of policy we want to create on this.
>> Fitz I knew personally and felt very confident about. This person I
>> may know, but I can't tell from the email address. I'm all for being
>> all-inclusive, but thought I should really check with you all before
>> I do anything.
>>
>> Danese
>
>
> I would like to allow anyone to join who requests subscription under the
> assumption that if s/he cares enough to subscribe, s/he should be
> allowed in.
>
> Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list.
> Also, if any problems should occur, subscriptions are easily revoked.
>
> Other opinions?
>
> -jean
>
Re: Okay, so I have a second request to subscribe to women@
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
> and I'm wondering what sort of policy we want to create on this. Fitz
> I knew personally and felt very confident about. This person I may
> know, but I can't tell from the email address. I'm all for being
> all-inclusive, but thought I should really check with you all before I
> do anything.
>
> Danese
I would like to allow anyone to join who requests subscription under the
assumption that if s/he cares enough to subscribe, s/he should be
allowed in.
Down the road, I'd like to see this be a publicly available list.
Also, if any problems should occur, subscriptions are easily revoked.
Other opinions?
-jean