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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> on 2018/11/24 07:53:41 UTC
NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Hi guys,
the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be
created.
Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still
using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
nonsence!
The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans
development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
down.
Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes
with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our
newly generated project.
What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New
Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
Java:
- Java Application
- Java Frontend Application
- Project from Archetype
- POM Project
- NetBeans Application
Ant(ic)/Java:
- Java Free-Form Project
- Java Modular Project
- Java Project with Existing Sources
- Java Class Library
- Java Application
Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
- JavaFX Application
- JavaFX Preloader
- JavaFX FXML Application
- JavaFX in Swing Application
- JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
- Module
- Module Suite
- Library Wrapper Module
- NetBeans Platform Application
PHP:
// unchanged
HTML5/JavaScript:
// unchanged
The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change
will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache
NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
Jaroslav Tulach
NetBeans founder & initial architect
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Vano Beridze <va...@gmail.com>.
Great idea.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:53 AM Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tulach@gmail.com
wrote:
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for
> download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should
> be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody
> still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious
> NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven
> comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for
> our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes
> "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this
> change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help
> Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Jan
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:12, Jan Lahoda a écrit :
> FWIW, there is StandardJavaFileManager.setLocationForModule:
> https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/docs/api/javax/tools/StandardJavaFileManager.html#setLocationForModule(javax.tools.JavaFileManager.Location,java.lang.String,java.util.Collection)
> which might be useful in some cases.
>
Thanks, I was not aware of this method. It may indeed be useful for (if
I understood correctly) plugins invoking the compiler from Java code. I
will keep that in mind if I have a chance to do experiments.
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Jan
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:12, Jan Lahoda a écrit :
> FWIW, there is StandardJavaFileManager.setLocationForModule:
> https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/docs/api/javax/tools/StandardJavaFileManager.html#setLocationForModule(javax.tools.JavaFileManager.Location,java.lang.String,java.util.Collection)
> which might be useful in some cases.
>
Thanks, I was not aware of this method. It may indeed be useful for (if
I understood correctly) plugins invoking the compiler from Java code. I
will keep that in mind if I have a chance to do experiments.
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
Hi Martin,
I appreciate that your are using NetBeans - thanks for that!
But, as I understand Jarsolav's proposal, it only proposes to change the
presentation in the "New Project" dialog, so that the (more standard) Maven
projects would be ordered in front of/above the Ant projects. Users would
still be able to create the Ant projects, if they chose so; and of course
NetBeans would still be able to open existing Ant projects (and I don't
think we'd want or be able to drop the ability to open the Ant projects in
the foreseeable future).
So, I am +1 on this proposal.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 11:29 AM Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> wrote:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
>
FWIW, there is StandardJavaFileManager.setLocationForModule:
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/docs/api/javax/tools/StandardJavaFileManager.html#setLocationForModule(javax.tools.JavaFileManager.Location,java.lang.String,java.util.Collection)
which might be useful in some cases.
Jan
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Enrico
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:13, Enrico Olivelli a écrit :
> Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
>
Yes, on the mailing list. My feeling is that in order to be convincing,
I need to create a prototype showing the feasibility of my proposal.
This is the intent of https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins - now I
need to find time to work on it.
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
+1 I like this idea of making Maven the default.
I'd also like to see if we could being Gradle support into the IDE by
default as well. I know its worked on as a plugin but I think bringing it
into the standard distribution would be a nice plus to have in the IDE as
well.
Regards
John
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 at 11:14, Enrico Olivelli <eo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Martin,
>
> Il sab 24 nov 2018, 11:29 Martin Desruisseaux <
> martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> ha scritto:
>
> > I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> > and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> > project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> > configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> > keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> > ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> > built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> > the following reasons:
> >
> > * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> > * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> > project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> > cycles.
> > * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> > license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> > * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> > compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
> >
> > A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> > incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> > is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> > [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> > maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> > had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> > projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
> >
> > I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> > only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> > because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> > languages. For example in the given directory layout:
> >
> > * src/main/java
> > * src/main/cpp
> > * src/main/resources
> >
>
> Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
>
> Cheers
> Enrico
>
>
> > Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
> >
> > So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> > time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> > layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> > better multi-language support.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> > [2]
> > https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> > [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
> >
> > --
>
>
> -- Enrico Olivelli
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Enrico
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:13, Enrico Olivelli a écrit :
> Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
>
Yes, on the mailing list. My feeling is that in order to be convincing,
I need to create a prototype showing the feasibility of my proposal.
This is the intent of https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins - now I
need to find time to work on it.
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
+1 I like this idea of making Maven the default.
I'd also like to see if we could being Gradle support into the IDE by
default as well. I know its worked on as a plugin but I think bringing it
into the standard distribution would be a nice plus to have in the IDE as
well.
Regards
John
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 at 11:14, Enrico Olivelli <eo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Martin,
>
> Il sab 24 nov 2018, 11:29 Martin Desruisseaux <
> martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> ha scritto:
>
> > I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> > and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> > project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> > configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> > keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> > ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> > built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> > the following reasons:
> >
> > * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> > * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> > project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> > cycles.
> > * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> > license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> > * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> > compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
> >
> > A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> > incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> > is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> > [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> > maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> > had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> > projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
> >
> > I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> > only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> > because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> > languages. For example in the given directory layout:
> >
> > * src/main/java
> > * src/main/cpp
> > * src/main/resources
> >
>
> Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
>
> Cheers
> Enrico
>
>
> > Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
> >
> > So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> > time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> > layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> > better multi-language support.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> > [2]
> > https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> > [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
> >
> > --
>
>
> -- Enrico Olivelli
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
+1 on the default project being Maven and not Ant based.
> Finally, I would really vote to make the move from Ant to Maven to build Netbeans itself. We then no longer need no use and maintain the nam-repository-plugin.
I've also been using more Maven than Ant for NetBeans modules but I
don't necessarily believe Maven is the future for NetBeans.
I would move to something different only if it's considerably faster
than the current system. I'm thinking along the lines of Facebook's
Buck build system ( https://buckbuild.com/ ) or maybe Gradle (
https://gradle.org/ ) which has some daemon to speed up re-runs.
--emi
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:14 PM Enrico Olivelli <eo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Martin,
>
> Il sab 24 nov 2018, 11:29 Martin Desruisseaux <
> martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> ha scritto:
>
> > I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> > and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> > project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> > configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> > keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> > ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> > built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> > the following reasons:
> >
> > * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> > * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> > project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> > cycles.
> > * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> > license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> > * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> > compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
> >
> > A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> > incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> > is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> > [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> > maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> > had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> > projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
> >
> > I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> > only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> > because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> > languages. For example in the given directory layout:
> >
> > * src/main/java
> > * src/main/cpp
> > * src/main/resources
> >
>
> Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
>
> Cheers
> Enrico
>
>
> > Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
> >
> > So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> > NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> > time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> > layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> > better multi-language support.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> > [2]
> > https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> > [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
> >
> > --
>
>
> -- Enrico Olivelli
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Enrico Olivelli <eo...@gmail.com>.
Martin,
Il sab 24 nov 2018, 11:29 Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> ha scritto:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
>
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
Cheers
Enrico
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
>
> --
-- Enrico Olivelli
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Enrico Olivelli <eo...@gmail.com>.
Martin,
Il sab 24 nov 2018, 11:29 Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> ha scritto:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
>
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
Have you already shared your thoughts and needs with Apache Maven group ?
Cheers
Enrico
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
>
> --
-- Enrico Olivelli
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Javier Ortiz <ja...@gmail.com>.
Sounds good to me. I would also suggest that the Gradle plugin should be
part of the base IDE.
I don't thin Maven in classroom is an issue. In ANT they need to download
dependencies as well. In those cases they can install locally from the
provided ones.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:44 AM Robert Scholte <rfscholte@apache.org wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:34:51 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
> <ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
>
> > Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> >
> >> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
> >> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
> >> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
> >> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
> >>
> > Great, thanks!
> >
> > Indeed, this is what I described in
> > https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
> > - that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
> > replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
> > by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
> > the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
> > which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
> > level (the directory layout).
> >
>
> If you are fine with tool invocations per module, then there's no need to
> change the directory layout. The current layout will stay the default and
> you can already apply module descriptors. And I expect that this is good
> enough for the majority of the community.
>
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for all
> you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture doesn't
> support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is on
> other improvements that block us right now.
>
> Robert
>
> >
> >>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
> >>>>
> >>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
> >>>>
> >>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
> >>>
> >>> Forax's idea into Maven.
> >>>
> >> I'll wait for the PRs :)
> >>
> > Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
> > I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
To add smth more here, it could be the same for PHP. In General you choose PHP and on the later steps you choose the Framework like Doctrine or WordPress or whatever. So this could be the same for Java Description could be: „Create Java applications with your favorite Tools. Ant, Maven, Gradle, can be choosen on the next steps“.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Christian Lenz
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. November 2018 19:25
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
+1 from my side too for chaning the UI of the Project wizard, but, please give it not only the Name Java, say Java Maven instead. Not only Java and Java Ant. A lot of People who wants to start programming with Java they probably heard of Ant and Maven, Maybe gradle etc. and Maybe of pom, but often or sometimes, when they start, the don’t know the relationship of pom and Maven. So on the first look of your Setup, there is nothin Maven written, only pom based Project.
Maybe this could be an alternative Setup:
Java
- Maven
- Ant
- Gradle (Future ;) )
Or Maybe the Building step could be part of the next wizard window
Java
- Java Application
- …
Next step
Choose your Tool Pipeline or whatever
Ant, Maven, Gradle, etc.
So IMHO, smth that says Maven or Ant or Gradle (I know it is a Plugin) should be mentioned on the very first Project wizard window.
Not real topic related:
For pushing Maven, there is much more to do. I realized some stuff, that I found in Ant, which I couldn’t find easy in Maven. I will create tickets for that.
The other Thing is, that it could be a nice to have to convert a ant based Project to Maven like in intelliJ. I know that this is not to 100% possible, but what IntelliJ does, they create a pom.xml (where you have to add the needed Information) for you and the Maven based Folders. Of Course you have to copy and paste the stuff manually, but this is a very Handy feature. I used it a lot but I have to open IntelliJ for that *shruggling*
Cheers
Chris
Von: Martin Desruisseaux
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. November 2018 17:02
An: Robert Scholte; Maven Users List; Jaroslav Tulach; dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
javadoc), or is there another way?
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
> on other improvements that block us right now.
>
Understood. Thanks!
Martin
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
+1 from my side too for chaning the UI of the Project wizard, but, please give it not only the Name Java, say Java Maven instead. Not only Java and Java Ant. A lot of People who wants to start programming with Java they probably heard of Ant and Maven, Maybe gradle etc. and Maybe of pom, but often or sometimes, when they start, the don’t know the relationship of pom and Maven. So on the first look of your Setup, there is nothin Maven written, only pom based Project.
Maybe this could be an alternative Setup:
Java
- Maven
- Ant
- Gradle (Future ;) )
Or Maybe the Building step could be part of the next wizard window
Java
- Java Application
- …
Next step
Choose your Tool Pipeline or whatever
Ant, Maven, Gradle, etc.
So IMHO, smth that says Maven or Ant or Gradle (I know it is a Plugin) should be mentioned on the very first Project wizard window.
Not real topic related:
For pushing Maven, there is much more to do. I realized some stuff, that I found in Ant, which I couldn’t find easy in Maven. I will create tickets for that.
The other Thing is, that it could be a nice to have to convert a ant based Project to Maven like in intelliJ. I know that this is not to 100% possible, but what IntelliJ does, they create a pom.xml (where you have to add the needed Information) for you and the Maven based Folders. Of Course you have to copy and paste the stuff manually, but this is a very Handy feature. I used it a lot but I have to open IntelliJ for that *shruggling*
Cheers
Chris
Von: Martin Desruisseaux
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. November 2018 17:02
An: Robert Scholte; Maven Users List; Jaroslav Tulach; dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
javadoc), or is there another way?
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
> on other improvements that block us right now.
>
Understood. Thanks!
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 17:02:02 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
>> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
>> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>>
> But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
> javadoc), or is there another way?
>
Aggregated reports have always been a single invocation, modularized or
not.
Btw, MJAVADOC-449 has been fixed. Looking at some other issues before
preparing a release.
thanks,
Robert
>
>> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
>> on other improvements that block us right now.
>>
> Understood. Thanks!
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 17:02:02 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
>> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
>> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>>
> But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
> javadoc), or is there another way?
>
Aggregated reports have always been a single invocation, modularized or
not.
Btw, MJAVADOC-449 has been fixed. Looking at some other issues before
preparing a release.
thanks,
Robert
>
>> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
>> on other improvements that block us right now.
>>
> Understood. Thanks!
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
javadoc), or is there another way?
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
> on other improvements that block us right now.
>
Understood. Thanks!
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Javier Ortiz <ja...@gmail.com>.
Sounds good to me. I would also suggest that the Gradle plugin should be
part of the base IDE.
I don't thin Maven in classroom is an issue. In ANT they need to download
dependencies as well. In those cases they can install locally from the
provided ones.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:44 AM Robert Scholte <rfscholte@apache.org wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:34:51 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
> <ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
>
> > Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> >
> >> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
> >> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
> >> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
> >> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
> >>
> > Great, thanks!
> >
> > Indeed, this is what I described in
> > https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
> > - that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
> > replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
> > by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
> > the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
> > which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
> > level (the directory layout).
> >
>
> If you are fine with tool invocations per module, then there's no need to
> change the directory layout. The current layout will stay the default and
> you can already apply module descriptors. And I expect that this is good
> enough for the majority of the community.
>
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for all
> you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture doesn't
> support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is on
> other improvements that block us right now.
>
> Robert
>
> >
> >>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
> >>>>
> >>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
> >>>>
> >>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
> >>>
> >>> Forax's idea into Maven.
> >>>
> >> I'll wait for the PRs :)
> >>
> > Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
> > I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 16:39, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> **If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for
> all you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture
> doesn't support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
>
But isn't what you are going to do for fixing MJAVADOC-449 (aggregated
javadoc), or is there another way?
> Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is
> on other improvements that block us right now.
>
Understood. Thanks!
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:34:51 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
>> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
>> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
>> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>>
> Great, thanks!
>
> Indeed, this is what I described in
> https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
> - that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
> replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
> by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
> the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
> which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
> level (the directory layout).
>
If you are fine with tool invocations per module, then there's no need to
change the directory layout. The current layout will stay the default and
you can already apply module descriptors. And I expect that this is good
enough for the majority of the community.
**If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for all
you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture doesn't
support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is on
other improvements that block us right now.
Robert
>
>>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>>>>
>>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>>>
>>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
>>>
>>> Forax's idea into Maven.
>>>
>> I'll wait for the PRs :)
>>
> Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
> I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:34:51 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
>> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
>> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
>> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>>
> Great, thanks!
>
> Indeed, this is what I described in
> https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
> - that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
> replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
> by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
> the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
> which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
> level (the directory layout).
>
If you are fine with tool invocations per module, then there's no need to
change the directory layout. The current layout will stay the default and
you can already apply module descriptors. And I expect that this is good
enough for the majority of the community.
**If And Only If** you want to make use of single tool invocation for all
you JPMS modules, then you cannot use Maven, it's architecture doesn't
support it and any plugin trying to solve this is a hack.
Might be possible to add support for it in Maven 4 or 5, but focus is on
other improvements that block us right now.
Robert
>
>>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>>>>
>>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>>>
>>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
>>>
>>> Forax's idea into Maven.
>>>
>> I'll wait for the PRs :)
>>
> Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
> I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>
Great, thanks!
Indeed, this is what I described in
https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
- that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
level (the directory layout).
>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>>>
>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>>
>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
>>
>> Forax's idea into Maven.
>>
> I'll wait for the PRs :)
>
Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 15:10, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
> nobody took serious time to solve this. I've been able to create the
> proper commandline by moving some classpath entries to the modulepath.
> Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>
Great, thanks!
Indeed, this is what I described in
https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki#changes-to-maven-plugins
- that implementing this functionality seems basically a matter of
replacing some "--classpath" by "--module-path" and some "--source-path"
by "--module-source-path" options. However while Javadoc is currently
the main issue, the same capability is desirable for other tools too,
which is why I would like to address this issue at a more fundamental
level (the directory layout).
>>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>>>
>>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>>
>> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
>>
>> Forax's idea into Maven.
>>
> I'll wait for the PRs :)
>
Cool! I don't know yet when I will have time to start my experiment, but
I would let you know when I will have a proposal that can be shown.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:02:08 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 13:53, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
>> requirements between library and application developers.
>>
> Indeed (e.g. jlink is for application developers), but the requirements
> I'm talking about are for library developers.
>
>
>> Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want
>> to distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule
>> Maven project.
>>
> Yes and no. 1 pom-file can represent only one artifact. But the rest of
> the discussion assumed that 1 artifact = 1 module, or that 1 Maven
> module = 1 Jigsaw module. This relationship does not necessarily hold.
> From recent discussion on OpenJDK public mailing list [1]:
>
> I'm sure the topic of executable modular JARs files be back on the
> table some day but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with the
> issues around having multiple modules in the same artifact. They
> would be likely be work needed in several Maven plugins and other
> parts of the eco system too. In the mean-time, it's not too hard to
> package multiple modules into the same JAR file and have a main
> class that creates a configuration and module layer from the modules
> in the JAR files.
>
> Another possibility is to generate the pom.xml files for each Jigsaw
> module, by intersecting the parent pom.xml with module-info.
>
There is no clean way to do this yet.
>
>> Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
>> modules.
>>
> No - a single javac invocation on a multi-modules projects still
> generate .class files in separated directories for each Jigsaw module,
> which result in one JAR file per module. I good demonstration of that is
> NetBeans modular projects (based on Ant), which does exactly that. I
> would like to see the same capability in Maven.
>
>
>> So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't
>> fit in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that
>> needed.
>>
> It does not fit with Maven standard directory layout. But with a change
> of layout and corresponding changes in Maven plugins, I do not see major
> obstacle (but of course I do not have your deep knowledge of Maven
> internal). However I would not said that this is generally not needed.
> We have at least MJAVADOC-449. Together with other issues, for me the
> choice is between an evolution of Maven (possibly with custom plugins)
> or migrating to another build system. Furthermore other Jigsaw evolution
> may come (e.g. above-cited multiple modules in same artifact). If Maven
> does not become more Jigsaw-friendly, the amount of difficulties may
> increase in the future.
>
>
Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
nobody took serious time to solve this.
I've been able to create the proper commandline by moving some classpath
entries to the modulepath.
Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>> There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
>>
>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>
> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
> Forax's idea into Maven.
I'll wait for the PRs :)
>
>
>> No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which
>> expects an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>>
> Indeed - this is the correction email I posted after my previous email.
>
>
>> I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add
>> module descriptor, you only have to create
>> src/main/java/module-info.java. You can build your project as you are
>> used to.
>>
> Adding module-info.java is sufficient for generating the JAR file, but
> this is not the end of development process. We also needs to generate
> javadoc. We sometime want to run annotation processing tools. Those
> extra tasks are where difficulties arise. There is also a circular
> dependency problem that would be solved with my proposal, but this one
> is admittedly quite specific to a project.
>
> Martin
>
>
> [1]
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2018-November/056839.html
> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MJAVADOC-449
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 15:02:08 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Le 24/11/2018 à 13:53, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
>> requirements between library and application developers.
>>
> Indeed (e.g. jlink is for application developers), but the requirements
> I'm talking about are for library developers.
>
>
>> Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want
>> to distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule
>> Maven project.
>>
> Yes and no. 1 pom-file can represent only one artifact. But the rest of
> the discussion assumed that 1 artifact = 1 module, or that 1 Maven
> module = 1 Jigsaw module. This relationship does not necessarily hold.
> From recent discussion on OpenJDK public mailing list [1]:
>
> I'm sure the topic of executable modular JARs files be back on the
> table some day but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with the
> issues around having multiple modules in the same artifact. They
> would be likely be work needed in several Maven plugins and other
> parts of the eco system too. In the mean-time, it's not too hard to
> package multiple modules into the same JAR file and have a main
> class that creates a configuration and module layer from the modules
> in the JAR files.
>
> Another possibility is to generate the pom.xml files for each Jigsaw
> module, by intersecting the parent pom.xml with module-info.
>
There is no clean way to do this yet.
>
>> Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
>> modules.
>>
> No - a single javac invocation on a multi-modules projects still
> generate .class files in separated directories for each Jigsaw module,
> which result in one JAR file per module. I good demonstration of that is
> NetBeans modular projects (based on Ant), which does exactly that. I
> would like to see the same capability in Maven.
>
>
>> So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't
>> fit in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that
>> needed.
>>
> It does not fit with Maven standard directory layout. But with a change
> of layout and corresponding changes in Maven plugins, I do not see major
> obstacle (but of course I do not have your deep knowledge of Maven
> internal). However I would not said that this is generally not needed.
> We have at least MJAVADOC-449. Together with other issues, for me the
> choice is between an evolution of Maven (possibly with custom plugins)
> or migrating to another build system. Furthermore other Jigsaw evolution
> may come (e.g. above-cited multiple modules in same artifact). If Maven
> does not become more Jigsaw-friendly, the amount of difficulties may
> increase in the future.
>
>
Today I started looking at MJAVADOC-449 again and it seems that just
nobody took serious time to solve this.
I've been able to create the proper commandline by moving some classpath
entries to the modulepath.
Now it is a matter of implementing this.
>> There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
>>
>> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
>> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>>
> Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
> Forax's idea into Maven.
I'll wait for the PRs :)
>
>
>> No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which
>> expects an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>>
> Indeed - this is the correction email I posted after my previous email.
>
>
>> I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add
>> module descriptor, you only have to create
>> src/main/java/module-info.java. You can build your project as you are
>> used to.
>>
> Adding module-info.java is sufficient for generating the JAR file, but
> this is not the end of development process. We also needs to generate
> javadoc. We sometime want to run annotation processing tools. Those
> extra tasks are where difficulties arise. There is also a circular
> dependency problem that would be solved with my proposal, but this one
> is admittedly quite specific to a project.
>
> Martin
>
>
> [1]
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2018-November/056839.html
> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MJAVADOC-449
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 13:53, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
> requirements between library and application developers.
>
Indeed (e.g. jlink is for application developers), but the requirements
I'm talking about are for library developers.
> Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want
> to distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule
> Maven project.
>
Yes and no. 1 pom-file can represent only one artifact. But the rest of
the discussion assumed that 1 artifact = 1 module, or that 1 Maven
module = 1 Jigsaw module. This relationship does not necessarily hold.
From recent discussion on OpenJDK public mailing list [1]:
I'm sure the topic of executable modular JARs files be back on the
table some day but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with the
issues around having multiple modules in the same artifact. They
would be likely be work needed in several Maven plugins and other
parts of the eco system too. In the mean-time, it's not too hard to
package multiple modules into the same JAR file and have a main
class that creates a configuration and module layer from the modules
in the JAR files.
Another possibility is to generate the pom.xml files for each Jigsaw
module, by intersecting the parent pom.xml with module-info.
> Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
> modules.
>
No - a single javac invocation on a multi-modules projects still
generate .class files in separated directories for each Jigsaw module,
which result in one JAR file per module. I good demonstration of that is
NetBeans modular projects (based on Ant), which does exactly that. I
would like to see the same capability in Maven.
> So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't
> fit in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that needed.
>
It does not fit with Maven standard directory layout. But with a change
of layout and corresponding changes in Maven plugins, I do not see major
obstacle (but of course I do not have your deep knowledge of Maven
internal). However I would not said that this is generally not needed.
We have at least MJAVADOC-449. Together with other issues, for me the
choice is between an evolution of Maven (possibly with custom plugins)
or migrating to another build system. Furthermore other Jigsaw evolution
may come (e.g. above-cited multiple modules in same artifact). If Maven
does not become more Jigsaw-friendly, the amount of difficulties may
increase in the future.
> There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
>
> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>
Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
Forax's idea into Maven.
> No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which
> expects an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>
Indeed - this is the correction email I posted after my previous email.
> I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add
> module descriptor, you only have to create
> src/main/java/module-info.java. You can build your project as you are
> used to.
>
Adding module-info.java is sufficient for generating the JAR file, but
this is not the end of development process. We also needs to generate
javadoc. We sometime want to run annotation processing tools. Those
extra tasks are where difficulties arise. There is also a circular
dependency problem that would be solved with my proposal, but this one
is admittedly quite specific to a project.
Martin
[1] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2018-November/056839.html
[2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MJAVADOC-449
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 13:53, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
> requirements between library and application developers.
>
Indeed (e.g. jlink is for application developers), but the requirements
I'm talking about are for library developers.
> Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want
> to distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule
> Maven project.
>
Yes and no. 1 pom-file can represent only one artifact. But the rest of
the discussion assumed that 1 artifact = 1 module, or that 1 Maven
module = 1 Jigsaw module. This relationship does not necessarily hold.
From recent discussion on OpenJDK public mailing list [1]:
I'm sure the topic of executable modular JARs files be back on the
table some day but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with the
issues around having multiple modules in the same artifact. They
would be likely be work needed in several Maven plugins and other
parts of the eco system too. In the mean-time, it's not too hard to
package multiple modules into the same JAR file and have a main
class that creates a configuration and module layer from the modules
in the JAR files.
Another possibility is to generate the pom.xml files for each Jigsaw
module, by intersecting the parent pom.xml with module-info.
> Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
> modules.
>
No - a single javac invocation on a multi-modules projects still
generate .class files in separated directories for each Jigsaw module,
which result in one JAR file per module. I good demonstration of that is
NetBeans modular projects (based on Ant), which does exactly that. I
would like to see the same capability in Maven.
> So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't
> fit in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that needed.
>
It does not fit with Maven standard directory layout. But with a change
of layout and corresponding changes in Maven plugins, I do not see major
obstacle (but of course I do not have your deep knowledge of Maven
internal). However I would not said that this is generally not needed.
We have at least MJAVADOC-449. Together with other issues, for me the
choice is between an evolution of Maven (possibly with custom plugins)
or migrating to another build system. Furthermore other Jigsaw evolution
may come (e.g. above-cited multiple modules in same artifact). If Maven
does not become more Jigsaw-friendly, the amount of difficulties may
increase in the future.
> There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
>
> As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
> tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
>
Yes I'm aware of that, and my proposal is in part bringing some of Remi
Forax's idea into Maven.
> No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which
> expects an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>
Indeed - this is the correction email I posted after my previous email.
> I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add
> module descriptor, you only have to create
> src/main/java/module-info.java. You can build your project as you are
> used to.
>
Adding module-info.java is sufficient for generating the JAR file, but
this is not the end of development process. We also needs to generate
javadoc. We sometime want to run annotation processing tools. Those
extra tasks are where difficulties arise. There is also a circular
dependency problem that would be solved with my proposal, but this one
is admittedly quite specific to a project.
Martin
[1] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2018-November/056839.html
[2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MJAVADOC-449
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:28:28 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Hello Robert
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> Le 24/11/2018 à 12:36, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
>> structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only
>> thing you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and
>> ensure you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it!
>>
> My email was saying that there is a need to change the folder structure
> for using Java Platform Modular System with "--module-path" options. The
> key part is "--module-path". What maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0 does is to
> use the "--class-path" options, which are the legacy options before
> Jigsaw.
>
> The consequence is that it is currently not possible to build more than
> one Jigsaw module in a single invocation of "javac", "javadoc", "jlink"
> or other JDK tools with Maven. Consequently I'm not aware of any way to
> generate a multi-modules javadoc, or to execute annotation processors
> using information from more than one module (except by generating
> temporary files), or any other task for which there is advantages in
> being able to use standard JDK tools with their new "--module-path"
> options.
With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
requirements between library and application developers.
Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want to
distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule Maven
project.
Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
modules. Up until know there's only 1 such large application: the JDK
itself (it is not really sharing modules, modules are part of the
application)
So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't fit
in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that needed.
There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
[1] https://github.com/forax/pro
>
> What I want is to be able to use Maven with Java "--module-path" options
> instead than "--class-path". This is where the Maven standard directory
> layout become an obstacle, because the "--module-path" option imposes a
> directory layout which is different than the Maven's one.
No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which expects
an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>
> I realize that not everyone may want to build a multi-modular project
> using "--module-path" option. But before Java 9, Maven made the use of
> javac easier without blocking the use of other options when desired.
> Since Java 9, we have a difficulty for which I have not yet found a
> satisfying solution other than the proposed Maven changes.
I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add module
descriptor, you only have to create src/main/java/module-info.java. You
can build your project as you are used to.
>
>
>> The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
>> Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
>
> I have not looked in details to Plexus-Java. Does it create a path for
> each Maven module? That would be a workaround, but it still more
> complicated than using Jigsaw in its "natural" way.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 13:28, Martin Desruisseaux a écrit :
> The key part is "--module-path".
Sorry I mean "--module-source-path" for the compilation and javadoc
generation parts. Likewise I mean "--source-path" instead of
"--classpath" for compilation with pre-jigsaw options.
Martin
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Le 24/11/2018 à 13:28, Martin Desruisseaux a écrit :
> The key part is "--module-path".
Sorry I mean "--module-source-path" for the compilation and javadoc
generation parts. Likewise I mean "--source-path" instead of
"--classpath" for compilation with pre-jigsaw options.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:28:28 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> Hello Robert
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> Le 24/11/2018 à 12:36, Robert Scholte a écrit :
>
>> Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
>> structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only
>> thing you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and
>> ensure you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it!
>>
> My email was saying that there is a need to change the folder structure
> for using Java Platform Modular System with "--module-path" options. The
> key part is "--module-path". What maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0 does is to
> use the "--class-path" options, which are the legacy options before
> Jigsaw.
>
> The consequence is that it is currently not possible to build more than
> one Jigsaw module in a single invocation of "javac", "javadoc", "jlink"
> or other JDK tools with Maven. Consequently I'm not aware of any way to
> generate a multi-modules javadoc, or to execute annotation processors
> using information from more than one module (except by generating
> temporary files), or any other task for which there is advantages in
> being able to use standard JDK tools with their new "--module-path"
> options.
With the Java Platform Modular System you'll clearly see different
requirements between library and application developers.
Keep in mind that 1 pom-file can represent only 1 module. If you want to
distribute multiple modules, you will still need a multimodule Maven
project.
Single invocation only makes sense for an application that won't share
modules. Up until know there's only 1 such large application: the JDK
itself (it is not really sharing modules, modules are part of the
application)
So yes: single invocation is an option for the jdk tools but doesn't fit
in the Maven architecture and is probably in general not that needed.
There are no plans to make these changes in Maven.
As response Remi Forax wrote Pro[1], which is build upon these new jdk
tools features combined with the concepts of Maven.
[1] https://github.com/forax/pro
>
> What I want is to be able to use Maven with Java "--module-path" options
> instead than "--class-path". This is where the Maven standard directory
> layout become an obstacle, because the "--module-path" option imposes a
> directory layout which is different than the Maven's one.
No, module-path is not the issue, but module-source-path is, which expects
an extra folder reflection the module-name.
>
> I realize that not everyone may want to build a multi-modular project
> using "--module-path" option. But before Java 9, Maven made the use of
> javac easier without blocking the use of other options when desired.
> Since Java 9, we have a difficulty for which I have not yet found a
> satisfying solution other than the proposed Maven changes.
I don't understand this issue. As a java developer wanting to add module
descriptor, you only have to create src/main/java/module-info.java. You
can build your project as you are used to.
>
>
>> The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
>> Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
>
> I have not looked in details to Plexus-Java. Does it create a path for
> each Maven module? That would be a workaround, but it still more
> complicated than using Jigsaw in its "natural" way.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Robert
Thanks for your reply.
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:36, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
> structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only
> thing you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and
> ensure you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it!
>
My email was saying that there is a need to change the folder structure
for using Java Platform Modular System with "--module-path" options. The
key part is "--module-path". What maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0 does is to
use the "--class-path" options, which are the legacy options before Jigsaw.
The consequence is that it is currently not possible to build more than
one Jigsaw module in a single invocation of "javac", "javadoc", "jlink"
or other JDK tools with Maven. Consequently I'm not aware of any way to
generate a multi-modules javadoc, or to execute annotation processors
using information from more than one module (except by generating
temporary files), or any other task for which there is advantages in
being able to use standard JDK tools with their new "--module-path" options.
What I want is to be able to use Maven with Java "--module-path" options
instead than "--class-path". This is where the Maven standard directory
layout become an obstacle, because the "--module-path" option imposes a
directory layout which is different than the Maven's one.
I realize that not everyone may want to build a multi-modular project
using "--module-path" option. But before Java 9, Maven made the use of
javac easier without blocking the use of other options when desired.
Since Java 9, we have a difficulty for which I have not yet found a
satisfying solution other than the proposed Maven changes.
> The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
> Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
I have not looked in details to Plexus-Java. Does it create a path for
each Maven module? That would be a workaround, but it still more
complicated than using Jigsaw in its "natural" way.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
Hello Robert
Thanks for your reply.
Le 24/11/2018 à 12:36, Robert Scholte a écrit :
> Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
> structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only
> thing you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and
> ensure you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it!
>
My email was saying that there is a need to change the folder structure
for using Java Platform Modular System with "--module-path" options. The
key part is "--module-path". What maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0 does is to
use the "--class-path" options, which are the legacy options before Jigsaw.
The consequence is that it is currently not possible to build more than
one Jigsaw module in a single invocation of "javac", "javadoc", "jlink"
or other JDK tools with Maven. Consequently I'm not aware of any way to
generate a multi-modules javadoc, or to execute annotation processors
using information from more than one module (except by generating
temporary files), or any other task for which there is advantages in
being able to use standard JDK tools with their new "--module-path" options.
What I want is to be able to use Maven with Java "--module-path" options
instead than "--class-path". This is where the Maven standard directory
layout become an obstacle, because the "--module-path" option imposes a
directory layout which is different than the Maven's one.
I realize that not everyone may want to build a multi-modular project
using "--module-path" option. But before Java 9, Maven made the use of
javac easier without blocking the use of other options when desired.
Since Java 9, we have a difficulty for which I have not yet found a
satisfying solution other than the proposed Maven changes.
> The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
> Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
I have not looked in details to Plexus-Java. Does it create a path for
each Maven module? That would be a workaround, but it still more
complicated than using Jigsaw in its "natural" way.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:29:11 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only thing
you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and ensure
you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it! Maven is the only
tool that had proper integration before the release of Java 9.
The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
For more details, just contact me.
thanks
Robert Scholte
[1]
https://github.com/codehaus-plexus/plexus-languages/tree/master/plexus-java
>
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
Hi Martin,
I appreciate that your are using NetBeans - thanks for that!
But, as I understand Jarsolav's proposal, it only proposes to change the
presentation in the "New Project" dialog, so that the (more standard) Maven
projects would be ordered in front of/above the Ant projects. Users would
still be able to create the Ant projects, if they chose so; and of course
NetBeans would still be able to open existing Ant projects (and I don't
think we'd want or be able to drop the ability to open the Ant projects in
the foreseeable future).
So, I am +1 on this proposal.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 11:29 AM Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.com> wrote:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
>
FWIW, there is StandardJavaFileManager.setLocationForModule:
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/docs/api/javax/tools/StandardJavaFileManager.html#setLocationForModule(javax.tools.JavaFileManager.Location,java.lang.String,java.util.Collection)
which might be useful in some cases.
Jan
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Robert Scholte <rf...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:29:11 +0100, Martin Desruisseaux
<ma...@geomatys.com> wrote:
> I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
> and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
> project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
> NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
> configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
> keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
> ~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
> built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
> the following reasons:
>
> * NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
> * Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
> project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
> cycles.
> * Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
> license, hints, additional words for check speller).
> * NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
> compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
>
> A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
> incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
> is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
> [3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
> maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
> had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
> projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
Let me correct this part: there is *no* need to change the folder
structure to work with the Java Platform Modular System. The only thing
you need to do is add a module-info.java to src/main/java and ensure
you're using maven-compiler-plugin-3.8.0. That's it! Maven is the only
tool that had proper integration before the release of Java 9.
The key library which might(/should!) be interesting for you is
Plexus-Java [1], which calculates the modulepath.
For more details, just contact me.
thanks
Robert Scholte
[1]
https://github.com/codehaus-plexus/plexus-languages/tree/master/plexus-java
>
> I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
> only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
> because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
> languages. For example in the given directory layout:
>
> * src/main/java
> * src/main/cpp
> * src/main/resources
>
> Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
>
> So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
> NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
> time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
> layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
> better multi-language support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/sis
> [2]
> https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
> [3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
the following reasons:
* NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
* Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
cycles.
* Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
license, hints, additional words for check speller).
* NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
[3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
languages. For example in the given directory layout:
* src/main/java
* src/main/cpp
* src/main/resources
Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
better multi-language support.
Regards,
Martin
[1] https://github.com/apache/sis
[2] https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
[3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Ok, the screenshots are here:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/1038
Am 25.11.18, 15:28 schrieb "Oliver Rettig" <Ol...@orat.de>:
Should'nt it be the same with
Netbeans Platform App?
The wizzard for a maven based Platform app wizzard can be found in the "Maven" folder but
the ant-based Platform app wizzard is in the folder "Netbeans Modules".
But I am not sure what should be the default. I feel better with the ant-based Netbeens
platform apps, because of some features like resolving dependencies of platform modules.
But I havent tried maven based platform app creation a couple of years.
Oliver
> I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
> do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
> >
> > I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you!
> > ;-)
> > Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some
> > valid
> > points.
> >
> > But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
> >
> > And +1 on Maven as default.
> >
> > I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where
> > the
> >
> > > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the
> > > necessarily
> > > the first step.
> >
> > I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> > implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> > selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> > for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant,
> > Java
> > with XXX.
> >
> > Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
OK, apparently attachements don't work here... Will upload them to the PR
Am 25.11.18, 15:39 schrieb "Anton Epple" <to...@eppleton.de>:
Like this (see attached pic)?
Am 25.11.18, 15:28 schrieb "Oliver Rettig" <Ol...@orat.de>:
Should'nt it be the same with
Netbeans Platform App?
The wizzard for a maven based Platform app wizzard can be found in the "Maven" folder but
the ant-based Platform app wizzard is in the folder "Netbeans Modules".
But I am not sure what should be the default. I feel better with the ant-based Netbeens
platform apps, because of some features like resolving dependencies of platform modules.
But I havent tried maven based platform app creation a couple of years.
Oliver
> I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
> do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
> >
> > I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you!
> > ;-)
> > Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some
> > valid
> > points.
> >
> > But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
> >
> > And +1 on Maven as default.
> >
> > I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where
> > the
> >
> > > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the
> > > necessarily
> > > the first step.
> >
> > I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> > implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> > selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> > for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant,
> > Java
> > with XXX.
> >
> > Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Like this (see attached pic)?
Am 25.11.18, 15:28 schrieb "Oliver Rettig" <Ol...@orat.de>:
Should'nt it be the same with
Netbeans Platform App?
The wizzard for a maven based Platform app wizzard can be found in the "Maven" folder but
the ant-based Platform app wizzard is in the folder "Netbeans Modules".
But I am not sure what should be the default. I feel better with the ant-based Netbeens
platform apps, because of some features like resolving dependencies of platform modules.
But I havent tried maven based platform app creation a couple of years.
Oliver
> I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
> do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
> >
> > I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you!
> > ;-)
> > Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some
> > valid
> > points.
> >
> > But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
> >
> > And +1 on Maven as default.
> >
> > I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where
> > the
> >
> > > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the
> > > necessarily
> > > the first step.
> >
> > I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> > implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> > selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> > for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant,
> > Java
> > with XXX.
> >
> > Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
For clarity, also a screenshot of the new "Java" (formerly "Maven") category.
Am 25.11.18, 15:37 schrieb "Anton Epple" <to...@eppleton.de>:
Like this (see attached pic)?
Am 25.11.18, 15:28 schrieb "Oliver Rettig" <Ol...@orat.de>:
Should'nt it be the same with
Netbeans Platform App?
The wizzard for a maven based Platform app wizzard can be found in the "Maven" folder but
the ant-based Platform app wizzard is in the folder "Netbeans Modules".
But I am not sure what should be the default. I feel better with the ant-based Netbeens
platform apps, because of some features like resolving dependencies of platform modules.
But I havent tried maven based platform app creation a couple of years.
Oliver
> I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
> do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
> >
> > I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you!
> > ;-)
> > Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some
> > valid
> > points.
> >
> > But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
> >
> > And +1 on Maven as default.
> >
> > I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where
> > the
> >
> > > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the
> > > necessarily
> > > the first step.
> >
> > I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> > implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> > selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> > for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant,
> > Java
> > with XXX.
> >
> > Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Oliver Rettig <Ol...@orat.de>.
Should'nt it be the same with
Netbeans Platform App?
The wizzard for a maven based Platform app wizzard can be found in the "Maven" folder but
the ant-based Platform app wizzard is in the folder "Netbeans Modules".
But I am not sure what should be the default. I feel better with the ant-based Netbeens
platform apps, because of some features like resolving dependencies of platform modules.
But I havent tried maven based platform app creation a couple of years.
Oliver
> I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
> do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
> >
> > I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you!
> > ;-)
> > Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some
> > valid
> > points.
> >
> > But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
> >
> > And +1 on Maven as default.
> >
> > I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where
> > the
> >
> > > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the
> > > necessarily
> > > the first step.
> >
> > I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> > implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> > selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> > for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant,
> > Java
> > with XXX.
> >
> > Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>.
+1 to making Maven the default.
I agree that we should not force users to choose between Maven or Ant when creating a new project. Just make Maven the default and allow the user the ability to change to Ant, if desired.
Josh Juneau
juneau001@gmail.com
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
> On Nov 25, 2018, at 12:57 PM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:48, <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
>>
>> Java Application:
>> - Maven based
>> - ANT based
>>
>> This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
>> than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
>
>
> That's not quite what I envisaged by using the hierarchy for this though -
> thinking more about
>
> Java
> - Java Application (Maven)
> - POM Project
> - Project with Existing POM
> - Ant based
> - Java Application (Ant)
> - Java Free-Form Project
> NetBeans
> - NetBeans Application (Maven)
> - NetBeans Module (Maven)
> - Ant based
> - NetBeans Application (Ant)
> - NetBeans Module (Ant)
> Java Web
> - ...
>
> Something like that anyway. ie. only the non-default / legacy stuff is in a
> sub-category.
>
> Agree with Emi that there's no rush for a PR on the basis that we're
> talking NB11 earliest, but less sure how the wizard combobox option would
> actually be preferable to revising project selection in practice. Depends
> how much each type of project overlaps across build systems I guess?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:48, <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> Java Application:
> - Maven based
> - ANT based
>
> This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
That's not quite what I envisaged by using the hierarchy for this though -
thinking more about
Java
- Java Application (Maven)
- POM Project
- Project with Existing POM
- Ant based
- Java Application (Ant)
- Java Free-Form Project
NetBeans
- NetBeans Application (Maven)
- NetBeans Module (Maven)
- Ant based
- NetBeans Application (Ant)
- NetBeans Module (Ant)
Java Web
- ...
Something like that anyway. ie. only the non-default / legacy stuff is in a
sub-category.
Agree with Emi that there's no rush for a PR on the basis that we're
talking NB11 earliest, but less sure how the wizard combobox option would
actually be preferable to revising project selection in practice. Depends
how much each type of project overlaps across build systems I guess?
Best wishes,
Neil
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
Later on, I would like to prefer seeing everything related to Java (doesn’t matter Ant, Web, Maven, Gradle, Swing, JFx) under the Java Project Category. Of Course the rest could be in Sub categories
Java
- Swing Apps
- Web Apps
- JavaFX Apps
- HTML4J Apps
- CLI / Console App
- Whatever we have here
NetBeans Modules could be a Sub category too or separated from them.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Anton Epple
Gesendet: Montag, 26. November 2018 12:13
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Done, I updated the PR:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/1038
--Toni
Am 26.11.18, 10:28 schrieb "Anton Epple" <to...@eppleton.de>:
Fully agree, I'll remove the (ic) __
Am 26.11.18, 10:22 schrieb "Emilian Bold" <em...@gmail.com>:
OK, let's make the cheapest PR we can do now and see how it looks (no
"Ant(ic)" please ;-) ). Then we can have an issue (or continue on this
thread) about how to redo the wizards for multiple build systems. Indeed,
if we go for the perfect solution we will still be stuck with having Ant
the default for a long time...
--emi
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:26 AM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> I'm not rushing. I read the proposal by Jaroslav and he has a point.
> Having ANT as the default is wrong. Maven should be the default.
> So I created a PR which does exactly that (and nothing else). I provided a
> (good) fix for the problem.
>
> I think it's great that this spawned a discussion about if we should unify
> the project wizard and change the grouping completely. But my fear is, that
> it prevents us from solving the initial problem. Some of the ideas are good
> (like thinking about grouping project wizards in a more logical way), some
> of them are bad in my opinion (like adding an extra step). All of them
> require a lot more discussion.
>
> One example:
>
> There's a wizard for JavaFX with ANT and one with Maven. If we add a build
> system choice in the wizard, the user will rightfully expect that this only
> influences what build system is used. But actually it will do much more.
> Both wizards create different applications, one is using FXML and CSS
> (Maven), the other isn't (Ant). So we'll have to discuss what to do: For us
> it's easier to convert the ANT project, but the Maven archetype is very
> opinionated in promoting FXML and requires me to delete a bunch of files
> every time I use it. So I would suggest to create a new archetype instead.
> And now I'm lying under the car covered in oil, while I actually wanted to
> change a lightbulb in the kitchen [1]
>
> The PR is the exact solution for the initial simple problem. I suggest to
> treat the other changes as a different RFE. If we decide to unify the
> wizards for different build systems, this is great, and it will wipe out my
> changes before any user has seen them. If we don't find the time, or cannot
> find a solution, then at least we've fixed the initial problem.
>
> --Toni
>
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 18:53
> An: NetBeans Dev@ <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
>
> I like Geertjan's idea best:
>
> > IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE Application" and a
> > single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of which, in step two
> > or three, should let the user choose whether they want to build their
> > Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build
> system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
>
> I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for
> build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that
> wizard combobox.
>
> Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system
> so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
> >
> > If we have something like:
> >
> > Java Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > Java Web Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > ...
> >
> > This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> > than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
> >
> > In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the
> > wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option
> where possible.
> > But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I
> > proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default
> > Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> > An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> >
> > > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > > need it.
> > >
> >
> > A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently.
> > Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's
> > possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are
> > suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
> >
> > Attachments get stripped btw.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Done, I updated the PR:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/1038
--Toni
Am 26.11.18, 10:28 schrieb "Anton Epple" <to...@eppleton.de>:
Fully agree, I'll remove the (ic) __
Am 26.11.18, 10:22 schrieb "Emilian Bold" <em...@gmail.com>:
OK, let's make the cheapest PR we can do now and see how it looks (no
"Ant(ic)" please ;-) ). Then we can have an issue (or continue on this
thread) about how to redo the wizards for multiple build systems. Indeed,
if we go for the perfect solution we will still be stuck with having Ant
the default for a long time...
--emi
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:26 AM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> I'm not rushing. I read the proposal by Jaroslav and he has a point.
> Having ANT as the default is wrong. Maven should be the default.
> So I created a PR which does exactly that (and nothing else). I provided a
> (good) fix for the problem.
>
> I think it's great that this spawned a discussion about if we should unify
> the project wizard and change the grouping completely. But my fear is, that
> it prevents us from solving the initial problem. Some of the ideas are good
> (like thinking about grouping project wizards in a more logical way), some
> of them are bad in my opinion (like adding an extra step). All of them
> require a lot more discussion.
>
> One example:
>
> There's a wizard for JavaFX with ANT and one with Maven. If we add a build
> system choice in the wizard, the user will rightfully expect that this only
> influences what build system is used. But actually it will do much more.
> Both wizards create different applications, one is using FXML and CSS
> (Maven), the other isn't (Ant). So we'll have to discuss what to do: For us
> it's easier to convert the ANT project, but the Maven archetype is very
> opinionated in promoting FXML and requires me to delete a bunch of files
> every time I use it. So I would suggest to create a new archetype instead.
> And now I'm lying under the car covered in oil, while I actually wanted to
> change a lightbulb in the kitchen [1]
>
> The PR is the exact solution for the initial simple problem. I suggest to
> treat the other changes as a different RFE. If we decide to unify the
> wizards for different build systems, this is great, and it will wipe out my
> changes before any user has seen them. If we don't find the time, or cannot
> find a solution, then at least we've fixed the initial problem.
>
> --Toni
>
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 18:53
> An: NetBeans Dev@ <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
>
> I like Geertjan's idea best:
>
> > IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE Application" and a
> > single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of which, in step two
> > or three, should let the user choose whether they want to build their
> > Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build
> system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
>
> I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for
> build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that
> wizard combobox.
>
> Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system
> so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
> >
> > If we have something like:
> >
> > Java Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > Java Web Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > ...
> >
> > This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> > than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
> >
> > In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the
> > wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option
> where possible.
> > But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I
> > proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default
> > Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> > An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> >
> > > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > > need it.
> > >
> >
> > A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently.
> > Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's
> > possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are
> > suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
> >
> > Attachments get stripped btw.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Fully agree, I'll remove the (ic) __
Am 26.11.18, 10:22 schrieb "Emilian Bold" <em...@gmail.com>:
OK, let's make the cheapest PR we can do now and see how it looks (no
"Ant(ic)" please ;-) ). Then we can have an issue (or continue on this
thread) about how to redo the wizards for multiple build systems. Indeed,
if we go for the perfect solution we will still be stuck with having Ant
the default for a long time...
--emi
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:26 AM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> I'm not rushing. I read the proposal by Jaroslav and he has a point.
> Having ANT as the default is wrong. Maven should be the default.
> So I created a PR which does exactly that (and nothing else). I provided a
> (good) fix for the problem.
>
> I think it's great that this spawned a discussion about if we should unify
> the project wizard and change the grouping completely. But my fear is, that
> it prevents us from solving the initial problem. Some of the ideas are good
> (like thinking about grouping project wizards in a more logical way), some
> of them are bad in my opinion (like adding an extra step). All of them
> require a lot more discussion.
>
> One example:
>
> There's a wizard for JavaFX with ANT and one with Maven. If we add a build
> system choice in the wizard, the user will rightfully expect that this only
> influences what build system is used. But actually it will do much more.
> Both wizards create different applications, one is using FXML and CSS
> (Maven), the other isn't (Ant). So we'll have to discuss what to do: For us
> it's easier to convert the ANT project, but the Maven archetype is very
> opinionated in promoting FXML and requires me to delete a bunch of files
> every time I use it. So I would suggest to create a new archetype instead.
> And now I'm lying under the car covered in oil, while I actually wanted to
> change a lightbulb in the kitchen [1]
>
> The PR is the exact solution for the initial simple problem. I suggest to
> treat the other changes as a different RFE. If we decide to unify the
> wizards for different build systems, this is great, and it will wipe out my
> changes before any user has seen them. If we don't find the time, or cannot
> find a solution, then at least we've fixed the initial problem.
>
> --Toni
>
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 18:53
> An: NetBeans Dev@ <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
>
> I like Geertjan's idea best:
>
> > IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE Application" and a
> > single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of which, in step two
> > or three, should let the user choose whether they want to build their
> > Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build
> system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
>
> I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for
> build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that
> wizard combobox.
>
> Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system
> so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
> >
> > If we have something like:
> >
> > Java Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > Java Web Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > ...
> >
> > This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> > than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
> >
> > In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the
> > wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option
> where possible.
> > But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I
> > proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default
> > Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> > An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> >
> > > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > > need it.
> > >
> >
> > A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently.
> > Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's
> > possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are
> > suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
> >
> > Attachments get stripped btw.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
OK, let's make the cheapest PR we can do now and see how it looks (no
"Ant(ic)" please ;-) ). Then we can have an issue (or continue on this
thread) about how to redo the wizards for multiple build systems. Indeed,
if we go for the perfect solution we will still be stuck with having Ant
the default for a long time...
--emi
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:26 AM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> I'm not rushing. I read the proposal by Jaroslav and he has a point.
> Having ANT as the default is wrong. Maven should be the default.
> So I created a PR which does exactly that (and nothing else). I provided a
> (good) fix for the problem.
>
> I think it's great that this spawned a discussion about if we should unify
> the project wizard and change the grouping completely. But my fear is, that
> it prevents us from solving the initial problem. Some of the ideas are good
> (like thinking about grouping project wizards in a more logical way), some
> of them are bad in my opinion (like adding an extra step). All of them
> require a lot more discussion.
>
> One example:
>
> There's a wizard for JavaFX with ANT and one with Maven. If we add a build
> system choice in the wizard, the user will rightfully expect that this only
> influences what build system is used. But actually it will do much more.
> Both wizards create different applications, one is using FXML and CSS
> (Maven), the other isn't (Ant). So we'll have to discuss what to do: For us
> it's easier to convert the ANT project, but the Maven archetype is very
> opinionated in promoting FXML and requires me to delete a bunch of files
> every time I use it. So I would suggest to create a new archetype instead.
> And now I'm lying under the car covered in oil, while I actually wanted to
> change a lightbulb in the kitchen [1]
>
> The PR is the exact solution for the initial simple problem. I suggest to
> treat the other changes as a different RFE. If we decide to unify the
> wizards for different build systems, this is great, and it will wipe out my
> changes before any user has seen them. If we don't find the time, or cannot
> find a solution, then at least we've fixed the initial problem.
>
> --Toni
>
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 18:53
> An: NetBeans Dev@ <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
>
> I like Geertjan's idea best:
>
> > IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE Application" and a
> > single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of which, in step two
> > or three, should let the user choose whether they want to build their
> > Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
>
> If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build
> system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
>
> I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for
> build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that
> wizard combobox.
>
> Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system
> so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
> >
> > If we have something like:
> >
> > Java Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > Java Web Application:
> > - Maven based
> > - ANT based
> > ...
> >
> > This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> > than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
> >
> > In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the
> > wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option
> where possible.
> > But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I
> > proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default
> > Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> > An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> >
> > > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > > need it.
> > >
> >
> > A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently.
> > Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's
> > possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are
> > suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
> >
> > Attachments get stripped btw.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by to...@eppleton.de.
I'm not rushing. I read the proposal by Jaroslav and he has a point. Having ANT as the default is wrong. Maven should be the default.
So I created a PR which does exactly that (and nothing else). I provided a (good) fix for the problem.
I think it's great that this spawned a discussion about if we should unify the project wizard and change the grouping completely. But my fear is, that it prevents us from solving the initial problem. Some of the ideas are good (like thinking about grouping project wizards in a more logical way), some of them are bad in my opinion (like adding an extra step). All of them require a lot more discussion.
One example:
There's a wizard for JavaFX with ANT and one with Maven. If we add a build system choice in the wizard, the user will rightfully expect that this only influences what build system is used. But actually it will do much more. Both wizards create different applications, one is using FXML and CSS (Maven), the other isn't (Ant). So we'll have to discuss what to do: For us it's easier to convert the ANT project, but the Maven archetype is very opinionated in promoting FXML and requires me to delete a bunch of files every time I use it. So I would suggest to create a new archetype instead. And now I'm lying under the car covered in oil, while I actually wanted to change a lightbulb in the kitchen [1]
The PR is the exact solution for the initial simple problem. I suggest to treat the other changes as a different RFE. If we decide to unify the wizards for different build systems, this is great, and it will wipe out my changes before any user has seen them. If we don't find the time, or cannot find a solution, then at least we've fixed the initial problem.
--Toni
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 18:53
An: NetBeans Dev@ <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
I like Geertjan's idea best:
> IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE Application" and a
> single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of which, in step two
> or three, should let the user choose whether they want to build their
> Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that wizard combobox.
Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
--emi
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
>
> If we have something like:
>
> Java Application:
> - Maven based
> - ANT based
> Java Web Application:
> - Maven based
> - ANT based
> ...
>
> This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
>
> In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the
> wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option where possible.
> But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I
> proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default
> Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
>
> > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > need it.
> >
>
> A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently.
> Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's
> possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are
> suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
>
> Attachments get stripped btw.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
I don't think there's any kind of rush to have a PR today.
I like Geertjan's idea best:
> IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
> Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
> which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
> to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
If it's more work it's more work, but then users get to pick the build
system from a combobox and we just set the default to be Maven.
I don't know that area that much but perhaps a we could have some SPI for
build systems and installing Gradle stuff will automatically add it to that
wizard combobox.
Maybe users could also have an option to set their preferred build system
so it always picks Gradle (or Ant or Maven) next time.
--emi
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 7:48 PM <to...@eppleton.de> wrote:
> Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
>
> If we have something like:
>
> Java Application:
> - Maven based
> - ANT based
> Java Web Application:
> - Maven based
> - ANT based
> ...
>
> This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better
> than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
>
> In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the wizards,
> with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option where possible.
> But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I proposed
> this simple PR which also does the job to change the default Java build
> tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
>
> > Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> > moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> > need it.
> >
>
> A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently. Don't
> disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's possible to get
> some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are suggesting without code
> changes if that's the direction of travel.
>
> Attachments get stripped btw.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by to...@eppleton.de.
Yeah, I realized it and uploaded them to the PR 😊.
If we have something like:
Java Application:
- Maven based
- ANT based
Java Web Application:
- Maven based
- ANT based
...
This doesn't really move ANT out of sight, and is only slightly better than what we have now. It also adds one more click to the wizard.
In my opinion, the best solution would be a selection box in the wizards, with the default set to Maven and ANT as the second option where possible. But this would require a lot more effort. That's why for now I proposed this simple PR which also does the job to change the default Java build tool in project wizards from ANT to Maven.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. November 2018 15:47
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who
> need it.
>
A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently. Don't disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's possible to get some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are suggesting without code changes if that's the direction of travel.
Attachments get stripped btw.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 14:14 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of
> moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who need
> it.
>
A sub-category could do that too? Been doing that myself recently. Don't
disagree with your point or approach either, just that it's possible to get
some way towards what Geertjan and Chris are suggesting without code
changes if that's the direction of travel.
Attachments get stripped btw.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Putting all ANT related stuff in its own category has the benefit of moving it out of focus, while still keeping it around for those who need it.
--Toni
Am 25.11.18, 14:55 schrieb "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 13:19 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris and
> Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further
> discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which solves
> the basic issue.
>
Well, a simpler way to what Geertjan suggested might be to make the
top-level folders Java Application, Java Web Application, etc. and have
Maven, Ant, etc. inside them?
Best wishes,
Neil
>
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
OK, will do, but let's move discussion about the current PR to the PR. It's easier to keep track (
Am 26.11.18, 14:56 schrieb "Christian Lenz" <ch...@gmx.net>:
This is what I meant, I would prefer also to have Java Maven or smth with Maven and Java Ant otherwise than only haven Java and Java Ant.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Neil C Smith
Gesendet: Montag, 26. November 2018 14:52
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 20:53, Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
> user into a choice they don't care about.
Not sure if that was meant as a direct reply to me or not, but I
completely agree with that ...
> A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
> understand what they are for a long time.
... however, from a couple of conversations I've had recently with
new-ish programmers, I'm not sure I agree with hiding the fact that
there *is* a build system when not forcing a decision.
I'm mostly +1 to Toni's PR as a good first step, but personally I
think it would be better to be more explicit in the name and
description that the project uses Maven -
eg. Java Application with Maven - A Java application using the default
Maven build system.
Is there also an issue if we just move the Maven template with the
same name in place of the Ant one that a load of old tutorials, etc.
will be confusingly wrong?
Best wishes,
Neil
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
This is what I meant, I would prefer also to have Java Maven or smth with Maven and Java Ant otherwise than only haven Java and Java Ant.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Neil C Smith
Gesendet: Montag, 26. November 2018 14:52
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 20:53, Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
> user into a choice they don't care about.
Not sure if that was meant as a direct reply to me or not, but I
completely agree with that ...
> A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
> understand what they are for a long time.
... however, from a couple of conversations I've had recently with
new-ish programmers, I'm not sure I agree with hiding the fact that
there *is* a build system when not forcing a decision.
I'm mostly +1 to Toni's PR as a good first step, but personally I
think it would be better to be more explicit in the name and
description that the project uses Maven -
eg. Java Application with Maven - A Java application using the default
Maven build system.
Is there also an issue if we just move the Maven template with the
same name in place of the Ant one that a load of old tutorials, etc.
will be confusingly wrong?
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 20:53, Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
> user into a choice they don't care about.
Not sure if that was meant as a direct reply to me or not, but I
completely agree with that ...
> A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
> understand what they are for a long time.
... however, from a couple of conversations I've had recently with
new-ish programmers, I'm not sure I agree with hiding the fact that
there *is* a build system when not forcing a decision.
I'm mostly +1 to Toni's PR as a good first step, but personally I
think it would be better to be more explicit in the name and
description that the project uses Maven -
eg. Java Application with Maven - A Java application using the default
Maven build system.
Is there also an issue if we just move the Maven template with the
same name in place of the Ant one that a load of old tutorials, etc.
will be confusingly wrong?
Best wishes,
Neil
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 4:59 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> > altogether.
> >
>
> And a lot of users of NetBeans aren't.
Yes, but those users aren't harmed by a simple default workflow, while
newbies are.
-Tim
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 9:53 PM Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
> > user into a choice they don't care about.
> >
> > A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> > altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
> > understand what they are for a long time.
> >
> > We owe it to those users to stay out of their way until they actually are
> > interested in choice of build tool and able to make an informed decision.
> >
> > +1 to making maven the default.
> >
> > -1 to surfacing a lot of build tool detail in the "just create a project
> so
> > I can get on with what I'm actually trying to do" workflow.
> >
> > -Tim
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 8:54 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 13:19 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> > >
> > > > I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris
> and
> > > > Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further
> > > > discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which
> > > solves
> > > > the basic issue.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, a simpler way to what Geertjan suggested might be to make the
> > > top-level folders Java Application, Java Web Application, etc. and have
> > > Maven, Ant, etc. inside them?
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > --
> > http://timboudreau.com
> >
>
--
http://timboudreau.com
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
>
> A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> altogether.
>
And a lot of users of NetBeans aren't.
Gj
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 9:53 PM Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
> user into a choice they don't care about.
>
> A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
> altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
> understand what they are for a long time.
>
> We owe it to those users to stay out of their way until they actually are
> interested in choice of build tool and able to make an informed decision.
>
> +1 to making maven the default.
>
> -1 to surfacing a lot of build tool detail in the "just create a project so
> I can get on with what I'm actually trying to do" workflow.
>
> -Tim
>
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 8:54 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 13:19 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> >
> > > I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris and
> > > Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further
> > > discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which
> > solves
> > > the basic issue.
> > >
> >
> > Well, a simpler way to what Geertjan suggested might be to make the
> > top-level folders Java Application, Java Web Application, etc. and have
> > Maven, Ant, etc. inside them?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >
> --
> http://timboudreau.com
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Tim Boudreau <ni...@gmail.com>.
There's a UI principle Joel Spolsky expounded years ago: Never force the
user into a choice they don't care about.
A lot of users of NetBeans are new to Java or new to programming
altogether. They don't know what Ant, Maven or Gradle are, and won't
understand what they are for a long time.
We owe it to those users to stay out of their way until they actually are
interested in choice of build tool and able to make an informed decision.
+1 to making maven the default.
-1 to surfacing a lot of build tool detail in the "just create a project so
I can get on with what I'm actually trying to do" workflow.
-Tim
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 8:54 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 13:19 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
>
> > I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris and
> > Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further
> > discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which
> solves
> > the basic issue.
> >
>
> Well, a simpler way to what Geertjan suggested might be to make the
> top-level folders Java Application, Java Web Application, etc. and have
> Maven, Ant, etc. inside them?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
--
http://timboudreau.com
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 13:19 Anton Epple <toni.epple@eppleton.de wrote:
> I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris and
> Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further
> discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which solves
> the basic issue.
>
Well, a simpler way to what Geertjan suggested might be to make the
top-level folders Java Application, Java Web Application, etc. and have
Maven, Ant, etc. inside them?
Best wishes,
Neil
>
AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
Hi,
I created a PR which does the changes proposed initially:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/pull/1038
It changes category "Java" to contain the Maven projects and introduces a new category "Ant(ic) Java" with former "Java" projects and subcategories "JavaFX" and "NetBeans Modules".
I agree that additional/more complex changes, as discussed by Chris and Geertjan, make sense in the longer term, but probably require further discussion. For now, this is a simple change (mostly branding) which solves the basic issue.
--Toni
Am 25.11.18, 10:40 schrieb "Geertjan Wielenga" <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>:
I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
Gj
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
>
>
> I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you! ;-)
> Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some valid
> points.
>
> But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
>
> And +1 on Maven as default.
>
> I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where the
> > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the necessarily
> > the first step.
> >
>
> I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant, Java
> with XXX.
>
> Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I think I agree with Chris -- if we're going to make a change here, let's
do it completely: IMHO there should be a single wizard named "Java SE
Application" and a single wizard named "Java Web Applicaton", both of
which, in step two or three, should let the user choose whether they want
to build their Java application with Maven, Gradle, or Ant.
Gj
On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
>
>
> I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you! ;-)
> Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some valid
> points.
>
> But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
>
> And +1 on Maven as default.
>
> I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where the
> > build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the necessarily
> > the first step.
> >
>
> I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
> implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
> selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
> for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant, Java
> with XXX.
>
> Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 02:13 Scott Palmer <swpalmer@gmail.com wrote:
> Gradle is the way forward and so much better.
I can think of a few people on here who'll probably disagree with you! ;-)
Personally I'm not that keen either, even though that link makes some valid
points.
But +1 for Gradle being a first-class citizen if possible.
And +1 on Maven as default.
I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where the
> build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the necessarily
> the first step.
>
I'm not sure if it should be in the wizards, and how easy that would be to
implement, but do think it could be made more obvious in the wizard
selection what build tool you're choosing. I think that's actually useful
for beginners - no just Java section - Java with Maven, Java with Ant, Java
with XXX.
Interested to get an educators view on this whole proposal though.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Scott Palmer <sw...@gmail.com>.
Ant and Maven projects are dead to me :-)
Gradle is the way forward and so much better. (Plus it could support native C/C++ as well.)
I know Maven is an Apache project, but quite frankly I agree 100% with this:
http://nealford.com/memeagora/2013/01/22/why_everyone_eventually_hates_maven.html <http://nealford.com/memeagora/2013/01/22/why_everyone_eventually_hates_maven.html>
Ant becomes awkward very quickly, and leaves you in XML hell. Maven, just doesn’t cut it for anything other than very simple straight-forward, plain Java projects with almost trivial build requirements. Anything more and you spend more time fighting it trying to bend it to do what you need - it is too rigid to conform to real-world project requirements without significant pain, most of the time. It is also extremely verbose, awkward to configure compared to Gradle.
I haven’t made an Ant-based or Maven-based project in years. Most of the time I come across a Maven-based project my first step is to convert it to Gradle so I can work pain free. (Not always easy, but always worth it if I need to spend any time on the project.)
Anyway, more to the point. I fully agree that Ant based projects should not be the default at this stage - almost nobody uses Ant anymore.
So +1 from me, even though I have learned to hate Maven with a passion.
A Maven default would be an improvement, Gradle would be even better, but I understand that likely isn’t going to happen in the near term. At least Maven projects share a common default source code layout with Gradle.
I would have to think about Christian’s proposal to have a wizard where the build tool is just one part of the project setup, and not the necessarily the first step.
Regards,
Scott
> On Nov 24, 2018, at 4:30 AM, Jean-Marc Borer <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I fuly agree, Ant projects are dead for me. I only use NB Maven projects since several years now and even if in the beginning the transition was not always easy when it came to customs builds, now you can do everything you need with Maven projects as you could with Ant AFAIK.
>
> However, Ant project should still be kept for legacy projects and to run the examples you find in books dedicated to NB.
>
> Finally, I would really vote to make the move from Ant to Maven to build Netbeans itself. We then no longer need no use and maintain the nam-repository-plugin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> JM Borer
>
>> On 24 Nov 2018, at 08:53, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
>> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>>
>> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
>> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>>
>> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be
>> created.
>>
>> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
>> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still
>> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
>> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
>> nonsence!
>>
>> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans
>> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
>> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
>> down.
>>
>> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
>> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes
>> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our
>> newly generated project.
>>
>> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New
>> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>>
>> Java:
>> - Java Application
>> - Java Frontend Application
>> - Project from Archetype
>> - POM Project
>> - NetBeans Application
>>
>> Ant(ic)/Java:
>> - Java Free-Form Project
>> - Java Modular Project
>> - Java Project with Existing Sources
>> - Java Class Library
>> - Java Application
>>
>> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
>> - JavaFX Application
>> - JavaFX Preloader
>> - JavaFX FXML Application
>> - JavaFX in Swing Application
>> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>>
>> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
>> - Module
>> - Module Suite
>> - Library Wrapper Module
>> - NetBeans Platform Application
>>
>> PHP:
>> // unchanged
>>
>> HTML5/JavaScript:
>> // unchanged
>>
>>
>> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change
>> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache
>> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>>
>> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
>> Jaroslav Tulach
>> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Jean-Marc Borer <jm...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
I fuly agree, Ant projects are dead for me. I only use NB Maven projects since several years now and even if in the beginning the transition was not always easy when it came to customs builds, now you can do everything you need with Maven projects as you could with Ant AFAIK.
However, Ant project should still be kept for legacy projects and to run the examples you find in books dedicated to NB.
Finally, I would really vote to make the move from Ant to Maven to build Netbeans itself. We then no longer need no use and maintain the nam-repository-plugin.
Cheers,
JM Borer
> On 24 Nov 2018, at 08:53, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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RE: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Kenneth Fogel <kf...@dawsoncollege.qc.ca>.
Let me add to the chorus recognizing that Maven should be the default build system. Other than my first Intro to Java courses, all my other courses require the use of Maven. NetBeans always did it best and its time to make Ant the option and Maven the standard.
I also agree that Graadle should be a first class citizen but the default should go to Maven.
I'd also like to see that the decision on the build system should be made after the project type and not before, as it is now.
Finally, how about a wizard to simplify creating archetypes in Maven.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com>
Sent: November 24, 2018 2:54 AM
To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Cc: users@maven.apache.org
Subject: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Hi guys,
the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be created.
Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a nonsence!
The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside down.
Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our newly generated project.
What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
Java:
- Java Application
- Java Frontend Application
- Project from Archetype
- POM Project
- NetBeans Application
Ant(ic)/Java:
- Java Free-Form Project
- Java Modular Project
- Java Project with Existing Sources
- Java Class Library
- Java Application
Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
- JavaFX Application
- JavaFX Preloader
- JavaFX FXML Application
- JavaFX in Swing Application
- JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
- Module
- Module Suite
- Library Wrapper Module
- NetBeans Platform Application
PHP:
// unchanged
HTML5/JavaScript:
// unchanged
The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
Jaroslav Tulach
NetBeans founder & initial architect
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Scott Palmer <sw...@gmail.com>.
I think a preference for the default tool would make sense. Or even if it just remembered your last selection so you don’t have to keep changing it. The initial default should be Maven at this point, but maybe it could be Gradle if it ever becomes a first class citizen.
I also agree with Tim, that forcing extra clicks and decisions should be avoided. So simply having an already filled in default option that can be safely ignored seems reasonable.
Pick a project type, enter a name on the same screen where it shows you what build tool will be used (and where you have the *option* to change it), maybe fill in a main class if the project type is Java Application, then click done.
How plug-ins can integrate with this wizard should be considered. I.e. before Gradle has first class out of the box support it should still be an option if the Gradle plugin is present.
Regards.
Scott
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Jean-Marc Borer <jm...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
I fuly agree, Ant projects are dead for me. I only use NB Maven projects since several years now and even if in the beginning the transition was not always easy when it came to customs builds, now you can do everything you need with Maven projects as you could with Ant AFAIK.
However, Ant project should still be kept for legacy projects and to run the examples you find in books dedicated to NB.
Finally, I would really vote to make the move from Ant to Maven to build Netbeans itself. We then no longer need no use and maintain the nam-repository-plugin.
Cheers,
JM Borer
> On 24 Nov 2018, at 08:53, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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AW: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Anton Epple <to...@eppleton.de>.
+1
Am 24.11.18, 08:55 schrieb "Jaroslav Tulach" <ja...@gmail.com>:
Hi guys,
the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for download.
Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should be
created.
Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody still
using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
nonsence!
The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious NetBeans
development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
down.
Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven comes
with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for our
newly generated project.
What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes "New
Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
Java:
- Java Application
- Java Frontend Application
- Project from Archetype
- POM Project
- NetBeans Application
Ant(ic)/Java:
- Java Free-Form Project
- Java Modular Project
- Java Project with Existing Sources
- Java Class Library
- Java Application
Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
- JavaFX Application
- JavaFX Preloader
- JavaFX FXML Application
- JavaFX in Swing Application
- JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
- Module
- Module Suite
- Library Wrapper Module
- NetBeans Platform Application
PHP:
// unchanged
HTML5/JavaScript:
// unchanged
The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this change
will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help Apache
NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
Jaroslav Tulach
NetBeans founder & initial architect
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>.
I think differently. In Apache SIS for example, we maintain both a Maven
and Ant project. The root source code directory is a classical Maven
project with pom.xml file [1], but we also maintain a sub-directory with
NetBeans Ant project configuration [2]. The official project
configuration is the Maven one, but the Ant project configuration is
keep in sync and takes its dependencies directly from the
~/.m2/repository directory. This means that the project needs to be
built with Maven once before we can use the Ant project. We do that for
the following reasons:
* NetBeans Ant project builds faster.
* Application and debugging sessions start faster in NetBeans Ant
project. This is very convenient when we do a lot of "modify - test"
cycles.
* Allow to commit configurations that can not be done in Maven (header
license, hints, additional words for check speller).
* NetBeans Ant Jigsaw project configuration offers better
compatibility with Jigsaw (more on it below).
A major issue is that since Jigsaw, Maven standard directory layout is
incompatible with java, javac and javadoc "--module-path" option, which
is making me look for alternatives (Gradle?). I describe the issue at
[3]. I would like to try changes in maven-compiler, maven-javadoc,
maven-jar and maven-deploy plugins for supporting Jigsaw, but did not
had the time to start yet. As far as I can see, I can not modularize my
projects the way I want with Maven at it stands today.
I also feel more concerned about Maven standard directory layout not
only because of its incompatibility with Jigsaw module paths, but also
because it does not seem well suited to project mixing two or more
languages. For example in the given directory layout:
* src/main/java
* src/main/cpp
* src/main/resources
Does the resources applies to Java, to C++ or both?
So Maven is a great tool, but its speed is not yet the same than the
NetBeans Ant project configuration (admittedly it may be improved with
time) and - more importantly - I think that the Maven standard directory
layout needs to be modified at least for Jigsaw compatibility, maybe for
better multi-language support.
Regards,
Martin
[1] https://github.com/apache/sis
[2] https://github.com/apache/sis/tree/master/ide-project/NetBeans/nbproject
[3] https://github.com/Geomatys/maven-plugins/wiki
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Ricardo Pacheco <ri...@gmail.com>.
+1 Agree totally
If you can set some tasks for us to help, would be great. I have developed
some internal plugins but would love to put my grain of salt into this
effort.
El sáb., 24 de nov. de 2018 1:53 a. m., Jaroslav Tulach <
jaroslav.tulach@gmail.com> escribió:
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for
> download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should
> be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody
> still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious
> NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven
> comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for
> our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes
> "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this
> change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help
> Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Scott Palmer <sw...@gmail.com>.
I think a preference for the default tool would make sense. Or even if it just remembered your last selection so you don’t have to keep changing it. The initial default should be Maven at this point, but maybe it could be Gradle if it ever becomes a first class citizen.
I also agree with Tim, that forcing extra clicks and decisions should be avoided. So simply having an already filled in default option that can be safely ignored seems reasonable.
Pick a project type, enter a name on the same screen where it shows you what build tool will be used (and where you have the *option* to change it), maybe fill in a main class if the project type is Java Application, then click done.
How plug-ins can integrate with this wizard should be considered. I.e. before Gradle has first class out of the box support it should still be an option if the Gradle plugin is present.
Regards.
Scott
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Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Pascal Fares ENT Cnam Liban <pa...@isae.edu.lb>.
+1
But also think about users without Internet connection (needed for maven)
when used in a classroom for example
Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 09:53, Jaroslav Tulach <ja...@gmail.com> a
écrit :
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for
> download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should
> be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody
> still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious
> NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven
> comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for
> our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes
> "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this
> change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help
> Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
--
*Pascal Fares : pascal.fares@isae.edu.lb
<pa...@isae.edu.lb> , pascal.fares@lecnam.net
<pa...@lecnam.net> ; +9613240246*
*Chef de **département informatique ISSAE Cnam Liban*
<http://www.cnam-liban.fr/genie-informatique/>
*Responsable **système d'information et environnements numériques
<http://si.isae.edu.lb/>*
Animateur Open Source Lebanese Movement <http://www.cofares.net/> :
pfares@cofares.net
Re: NetBeans - the UI for Maven
Posted by Vano Beridze <va...@gmail.com>.
Great idea.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:53 AM Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tulach@gmail.com
wrote:
> Hi guys,
> the Apache NetBeans release 10 is (almost) finished and ready for
> download.
> Time to look forward: Long live Apache NetBeans - the UI for Apache Maven!
>
> NetBeans is known for its excellent Maven support. Time to bring it to new
> level - time to lead all NetBeans newbies directly into Maven hands:
>
> Whenever one creates new Java project from scratch a Maven project should
> be
> created.
>
> Currently the default project type is Ant based, but as Jesse Glick (the
> author of the Ant based projects integration) once asked: "Is anybody
> still
> using that!?" That is the question! Newcomers use it, but otherwise it is
> useless dead end road. Starting new Ant based project in a year 2018 is a
> nonsence!
>
> The current duality of Ant/Maven project support also wastes precious
> NetBeans
> development resources - features are usually implemented for Ant based
> projects first and only then ported to Maven. That's misfocused and upside
> down.
>
> Let's make the switch and offer Maven projects by default. Maven is well
> suited for the task: it is standard, well adopted build system. Maven
> comes
> with project archetypes that will serve as great starting templates for
> our
> newly generated project.
>
> What will change? Not the code, but the presentation: When one invokes
> "New
> Project" in NetBeans 11, there should be:
>
> Java:
> - Java Application
> - Java Frontend Application
> - Project from Archetype
> - POM Project
> - NetBeans Application
>
> Ant(ic)/Java:
> - Java Free-Form Project
> - Java Modular Project
> - Java Project with Existing Sources
> - Java Class Library
> - Java Application
>
> Ant(ic)/JavaFX:
> - JavaFX Application
> - JavaFX Preloader
> - JavaFX FXML Application
> - JavaFX in Swing Application
> - JavaFX Project with Existing Sources
>
> Ant(ic)/NetBeans Modules:
> - Module
> - Module Suite
> - Library Wrapper Module
> - NetBeans Platform Application
>
> PHP:
> // unchanged
>
> HTML5/JavaScript:
> // unchanged
>
>
> The "Java" category will offer only Maven based projects. I hope this
> change
> will be welcomed by NetBeans as well as Maven supporters and will help
> Apache
> NetBeans to move forward and focus on support of technology that matters!
>
> Best regards and thanks in advance for your support.
> Jaroslav Tulach
> NetBeans founder & initial architect
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>