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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> on 2004/09/15 20:41:55 UTC
Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
On 2004-06-17, Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> wrote:
> I would like to know if there is any effort of translating the
> subversion book to Spanish. If not, I would like to volunteer
> and require instructions on how to collaborate.
Given the lack of answers I've started it with Rubén Gómez.
svn co svn://gradha.no-ip.org:3603/ svnbook-es
The only future difference from the English version will be a
specific chapter or appendix informing about the translation
project itself. Will you this work?
Friends from Spain have told me that my translation to Spanish might
conflict with any "official" translation in progress by O'Reilly. Who
can I contact to make sure that I'm not duplicating effort? If this
Spanish translation is finished, is there any guarantee that O'Reilly
would use it to publish the book in Spain or would they ignore it?
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
On 2004-09-26, Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net> wrote:
> > I would still like to hear answers to these questions:
>
> I'm sorry that you did not get any answers yet. This request is
> on my TODO list
Fair enough. Knowing that you are in charge of translations and
that this is in a queue is more than enough for me.
PD: Please don't send me private copies of your public answers. TIA.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <e....@gmx.net>.
> I would still like to hear answers to these questions:
I'm sorry that you did not get any answers yet. This request is on my TODO
list, but given that my girlfriend gave birth to our first one (a girl), I
have been swamped last week. Others wait for me to answer, since I
volunteered to coordinate translations.
I'll get back to you asap.
bye,
Erik.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> writes:
> I don't see any exceptions in HACKING related to
> documentation. Previous posts contradict what you say
> (http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=69290)
> too, unless I misunderstood both HACKING and those posts.
We can put an exception in there if you need.
The HACKING guidelines should not get in anyone's way. If you find
them so restrictive that they are a deterrent to you doing work, then
let's loosen them for translations. I'm pretty sure the other
developers would agree.
Note that message 69290 was about two things: formatting, and clarity
(mentioning the name of the removed directory). Of the two, clarity
is more important. It's not really that important that the same
format be used for code commits as for translation commits, though if
it's easy
> I could discuss this if the exceptions you talk about are clearly
> defined, which currently is not the case. Have these exceptions
> been communicated to other book translators?
I've updated HACKING in r11227, please take a look and see if the new
guidelines are clearly enough defined. (I'll do a separate post to
make sure no other developers object to this change.)
> Thanks. It's just that I don't welcome extra commit messages
> unrelated to the task I'm interested in, though.
>
> Another icky problem would be non utf8/ascii logs/contents in commit
> emails, as sadly documented around line 440 of commit-email.pl. I
> currently fixed it hacking the charset and using an additional script
> to translate svn utf8 logs into latin1 before they are included in
> the mail.
>
> This raises another issue not discussed in HACKING, which is non
> English log messages and how they should be used, if at all allowed.
I'm pretty neutral in that discussion, I'll let people who have
opinions sort it out :-).
> OTOH each translator is then forced to follow (IMHO) unproductive
> rules and deal with a higher volume of emails. Since you demonstrate
> willingness to lessen the former and translators might be able
> to deal with the latter, I will discuss this on the mailing list,
> because until now I only spoke for myself.
>
> However, I still think that subversion code development and
> translation of documentation are tasks better dealt with separately,
> in a modular approach.
This may possibly still be true. Even though HACKING is adjusted now,
I don't mean that to force a decision on you. I just didn't want
HACKING to be in your way. You and the other translators and Erik can
work out the best procedure from here...
Best,
-Karl
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
On 2004-10-02, Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok. I see these relevant sections in HACKING:
>
> * Writing log messages
> * Patch submission guidelines
>
> To start with the latter, it will not be in your way, since you
> will (presumably) be committing your changes.
True, not a problem if every translator has commit access.
> The former says you should write a log message which describes
> what you changes, continuing to state requirements to documenting
> code changes in the log. The documenting-code-changes-in-the-log
> part does not apply to the book, so that the only requirement
> here will be that you describe the nature of the changes you
> applied. Maybe you interpreted HACKING differently?
I don't see any exceptions in HACKING related to
documentation. Previous posts contradict what you say
(http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=69290)
too, unless I misunderstood both HACKING and those posts.
> If so, would using my interpretation be enough to have you use
> the Subversion repository?
I could discuss this if the exceptions you talk about are clearly
defined, which currently is not the case. Have these exceptions
been communicated to other book translators?
> > The second reason would be the verbosity of the main development
> > repository. [...] I don't want translators to have to bother
> > with such amount of email. I don't want to deal with it myself.
>
> I chatted with some of the other devs in IRC and those who spoke
> on the subject feel that your commit volume will not be a problem
> to the rest of Subversion development. We welcome your commit
> volume as we welcome your project.
Thanks. It's just that I don't welcome extra commit messages
unrelated to the task I'm interested in, though.
Another icky problem would be non utf8/ascii logs/contents in commit
emails, as sadly documented around line 440 of commit-email.pl. I
currently fixed it hacking the charset and using an additional script
to translate svn utf8 logs into latin1 before they are included in
the mail.
This raises another issue not discussed in HACKING, which is non
English log messages and how they should be used, if at all allowed.
> We however feel that you can spend your time most effectively if
> you can work with only one repository. With resyncing much more
> risks are involved at keeping both translations up to date. Besides
> that, the project must be more actively managed which takes time
> we'd like you to be able to use to do your translation.
OTOH each translator is then forced to follow (IMHO) unproductive
rules and deal with a higher volume of emails. Since you demonstrate
willingness to lessen the former and translators might be able
to deal with the latter, I will discuss this on the mailing list,
because until now I only spoke for myself.
However, I still think that subversion code development and
translation of documentation are tasks better dealt with separately,
in a modular approach.
On 2004-10-02, Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you (or will you) have a file in your tree somewhere which
> states which rev is currently being translated?
At the moment each file contains "<!-- originated from English
revision 10817 -->".
> > > Should I announce the translation project on
> > > announce@subversion.tigris.org? Maybe somewhere else?
>
> That would be a good place to do so. It would be even better if
> you could mention a URL for your project within the Subversion
> repository. :-)
After browsing its archives and reading Max's answer, I will try to
announce it in Spanish related websites/mailing lists once there
is a useful amount of translated chapters. Reaching the correct
audience and all that stuff.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
On 2004-09-26, Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> wrote:
> On 2004-09-26, Max Bowsher <ma...@ukf.net> wrote:
> > If you would like a mailing list, to discuss the translation
> > in spanish, then I see no problem with providing one.
> >
> > The current dev/users lists are moderated. If you want a list,
> > should it be moderated or unmoderated, and if moderated, we
> > will need a list of moderators.
>
> Thank you very much.
> [...]
> Moderation should be done at least by two people. I will ask Rubén
> and Ariel if they want to moderate it too. I'll get back to you
> with their answer if they don't to reply to this publicly.
Both want to help. The list would be then:
Ariel Arjona <be...@gmail.com>
Rubén Gómez <ru...@euskalnet.net>
Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>
PD: Please don't send me private copies of your public answers. TIA.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com>.
> > >Regardless of hosting issues, I'd still send periodic patches to
> > >include in http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk once somebody
> > >answers the first question I quoted. And I will still push you
> > >towards internationalising the page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/.
> >
> > Could you be persuaded to reconsider, Grzegorz?
> > [...]
> > I think everyone would agree that translation should be a full
> > part of the project, not forced out to seek hosting elsewhere.
>
> My main reason for not wanting to use the main repository to host the
> work being translated is because of the rules outlined in HACKING.
> They are too strict for small and progressive translations. Ariel
> seems to prefer making changes in small batches.
Umm; I can't imagine which rules you are talking about here, so.. I'm
scanning HACKING now for any relevant sections.
Ok. I see these relevant sections in HACKING:
* Writing log messages
* Patch submission guidelines
To start with the latter, it will not be in your way, since you will
(presumably) be committing your changes. The former says you should
write a log message which describes what you changes, continuing to
state requirements to documenting code changes in the log. The
documenting-code-changes-in-the-log part does not apply to the book,
so that the only requirement here will be that you describe the nature
of the changes you applied. Maybe you interpreted HACKING differently?
If so, would using my interpretation be enough to have you use the
Subversion repository?
> The second reason would be the verbosity of the main development
> repository. For practical and psychological reasons I want all
> translators to read all the commits done to the project. The volume
> of svn@subversion.tigris.org is too much for this (which would
> increase by at least 60+ more small commits per month). I don't want
> translators to have to bother with such amount of email. I don't
> want to deal with it myself. My machine has a post-commit hook, and
> that's enough, so we don't need a separate mailing list for commits.
I chatted with some of the other devs in IRC and those who spoke on
the subject feel that your commit volume will not be a problem to the
rest of Subversion development. We welcome your commit volume as we
welcome your project.
> I don't see this as a departure from the main project. The
> communication mailing list would be kindly hosted by
> you. Periodically I would sync the translations of the
> finished documents in our local repositly as patches under your
> submission guidelines. As for the web part, I'll try now with
> svnbook.red-bean.com as you suggested.
We however feel that you can spend your time most effectively if you
can work with only one repository. With resyncing much more risks are
involved at keeping both translations up to date. Besides that, the
project must be more actively managed which takes time we'd like you
to be able to use to do your translation.
bye,
Erik.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
On 2004-09-26, Max Bowsher <ma...@ukf.net> wrote:
> If you would like a mailing list, to discuss the translation in
> spanish, then I see no problem with providing one.
>
> The current dev/users lists are moderated. If you want a list,
> should it be moderated or unmoderated, and if moderated, we will
> need a list of moderators.
Thank you very much.
My only experience with mailing list moderation has been through
the mailman interface provided by SourceForge services. The model I
have in mind is for subscribed users to be able to post freely. Non
subscribers don't need to subscribe in order to post, but their
messages will have to await moderation.
Moderation should be done at least by two people. I will ask Rubén
and Ariel if they want to moderate it too. I'll get back to you
with their answer if they don't to reply to this publicly.
> >Regardless of hosting issues, I'd still send periodic patches to
> >include in http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk once somebody
> >answers the first question I quoted. And I will still push you
> >towards internationalising the page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/.
>
> Could you be persuaded to reconsider, Grzegorz?
> [...]
> I think everyone would agree that translation should be a full
> part of the project, not forced out to seek hosting elsewhere.
My main reason for not wanting to use the main repository to host the
work being translated is because of the rules outlined in HACKING.
They are too strict for small and progressive translations. Ariel
seems to prefer making changes in small batches. Rubén and me go
with a minimum of one paragraph a day, which we find better to avoid
overloading ourselves and still be able to share those changes with
others interested in them. At the moment I see no advantage working
directly against http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk.
The second reason would be the verbosity of the main development
repository. For practical and psychological reasons I want all
translators to read all the commits done to the project. The volume
of svn@subversion.tigris.org is too much for this (which would
increase by at least 60+ more small commits per month). I don't want
translators to have to bother with such amount of email. I don't
want to deal with it myself. My machine has a post-commit hook, and
that's enough, so we don't need a separate mailing list for commits.
I don't see this as a departure from the main project. The
communication mailing list would be kindly hosted by
you. Periodically I would sync the translations of the
finished documents in our local repositly as patches under your
submission guidelines. As for the web part, I'll try now with
svnbook.red-bean.com as you suggested.
PD: Please don't send me private copies of your public answers. TIA.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Max Bowsher <ma...@ukf.net>.
Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz wrote:
> I would still like to hear answers to these questions:
>
> On 2004-09-18, Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>
> wrote:
>> The methodology we are using to translate is to take
>> a snapshot of the english book and translate it, which
>> results in partially translated .xml files. However, in
>> http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk I see that other translators
>> of the book only send you the completely translated files. We
>> also have README like files and custom makefile to generate a
>> partially translated spanish version of the book. Can I include
>> these in future patches or you only accept the .xml files (only
>> if they are complete)?
I see no problem with partially translated book files being in the
repository - we allow partially translated .po files, after all.
>> Rubén just asked if you could provide a mailing list for discussion
>> of Spanish translation issues. In my previous translation projects
>> I've never needed more than a few email exchanges to solve
>> problems, but I was working mostly alone and asking doesn't hurt.
If you would like a mailing list, to discuss the translation in spanish,
then I see no problem with providing one.
The current dev/users lists are moderated. If you want a list, should it be
moderated or unmoderated, and if moderated, we will need a list of
moderators.
>> Should I announce the translation project on
>> announce@subversion.tigris.org? Maybe somewhere else?
So far, such things have usually been annouced on users@, IIRC.
>> It would be nice if the web page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
>> mentioned translation projects and redirected readers to the in
>> progress documents or maybe another web page. This increases the
>> project's awareness to subversion users and increases the chance
>> of somebody joining the translation project or reading/reviewing
>> the work done so far.
A good idea. Best to send a new mail explicitly mentioning
svnbook.red-bean.com in the subject, so that the people with access to
red-bean take note.
> With regards to the mailing list, and the post from Ariel Arjona on
> the 23rd of this month, I don't think any more this would be a good
> idea, given the slowness and/or lack of answers on your part. It
> all looks as if nobody cared about translations of the book. I've
> seen myself a few other translation related posts go unanswered.
>
> I don't have problems hosting the translation repository on my
> machine as I have been doing. In order to gain public awareness for
> the project and collaboration facilities like mailing lists, Ariel
> suggested registering this project at http://developer.berlios.de/,
> and it seems like a good idea. I guess I will move the project
> there next weekend.
>
> Regardless of hosting issues, I'd still send periodic patches to
> include in http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk once somebody
> answers the first question I quoted. And I will still push you
> towards internationalising the page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/.
Could you be persuaded to reconsider, Grzegorz?
Erik Huelsmann volunteered to co-ordinate translation projects, and has been
doing an excellent job, but this led to everyone leaving anything to do with
translation to him! So, when he was busy, response became rather slow.
I think everyone would agree that translation should be a full part of the
project, not forced out to seek hosting elsewhere.
Max.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Grzegorz,
As promised I'll try to answer your questions below. I hope the
answers are enough to your liking so that you will reconsider and want
to be part of the Subversion repository for your book development.
> On 2004-09-18, Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> wrote:
> > The methodology we are using to translate is to take
> > a snapshot of the english book and translate it,
That part is great, I think, since then there will be little doubt
which changes should have been incorporated in the book and which
don't. Also it leaves little room for doubt about what work is left to
do.
Do you (or will you) have a file in your tree somewhere which states
which rev is currently being translated?
> > which results in partially translated .xml files. However, in
> > http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk I see that other translators
> > of the book only send you the completely translated files.
Since you have a clear policy on what translation is left to be done
and from which revision, I see no problem in having partially
translated files in the trunk repository. The trunk is absolutely
where this kind of development should take place.
> > We
> > also have README like files and custom makefile to generate a
> > partially translated spanish version of the book. Can I include
> > these in future patches or you only accept the .xml files (only
> > if they are complete)?
If the translation is going to be part of the main repository (and we
want that) then you are going to need some room to do what you need to
do for your translation. So, if you are going to have README,
TRANSLATING or other administrative files, then those are part of your
translating administration. Ofcourse you will be allowed to run the
administration that goes with the work.
For the Makefile; many projects' makefiles run only on one platform
(mostly Linux) or on one 'make' variant. Subversion supports a very
wide range of platforms and 'make' variants. It would be expected that
your Makefile supports these same targets, so if you are going to add
a Makefile, we really want to encourage you to make sure it runs on
many platforms and many 'make' variants. Apart from that I don't see a
problem with you having your own Makefile.
> > Rubén just asked if you could provide a mailing list for discussion
> > of Spanish translation issues. In my previous translation projects
> > I've never needed more than a few email exchanges to solve
> > problems, but I was working mostly alone and asking doesn't hurt.
The mailing list has been setup now. I saw the first mails being exchanged.
Let me know what you think of my answers. I seriously hope you are
willing to join the main Subversion repository. If you do, please tell
me so, so that I can start the required process.
> > Should I announce the translation project on
> > announce@subversion.tigris.org? Maybe somewhere else?
That would be a good place to do so. It would be even better if you
could mention a URL for your project within the Subversion repository.
:-)
> > It would be nice if the web page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
> > mentioned translation projects and redirected readers to the in
> > progress documents or maybe another web page. This increases the
> > project's awareness to subversion users and increases the chance
> > of somebody joining the translation project or reading/reviewing
> > the work done so far.
As far as I have seen, you've been contacted by C Mike Pilato about
the svnbook site and related matters. (I can't tell you anything about
those, as you probably know now.)
> Regardless of hosting issues, I'd still send periodic patches to
> include in http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk once somebody
> answers the first question I quoted. And I will still push you
> towards internationalising the page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/.
bye,
Erik.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
I would still like to hear answers to these questions:
On 2004-09-18, Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> wrote:
> The methodology we are using to translate is to take
> a snapshot of the english book and translate it, which
> results in partially translated .xml files. However, in
> http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk I see that other translators
> of the book only send you the completely translated files. We
> also have README like files and custom makefile to generate a
> partially translated spanish version of the book. Can I include
> these in future patches or you only accept the .xml files (only
> if they are complete)?
>
> Rubén just asked if you could provide a mailing list for discussion
> of Spanish translation issues. In my previous translation projects
> I've never needed more than a few email exchanges to solve
> problems, but I was working mostly alone and asking doesn't hurt.
>
> Should I announce the translation project on
> announce@subversion.tigris.org? Maybe somewhere else?
>
> It would be nice if the web page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
> mentioned translation projects and redirected readers to the in
> progress documents or maybe another web page. This increases the
> project's awareness to subversion users and increases the chance
> of somebody joining the translation project or reading/reviewing
> the work done so far.
With regards to the mailing list, and the post from Ariel Arjona on
the 23rd of this month, I don't think any more this would be a good
idea, given the slowness and/or lack of answers on your part. It
all looks as if nobody cared about translations of the book. I've
seen myself a few other translation related posts go unanswered.
I don't have problems hosting the translation repository on my
machine as I have been doing. In order to gain public awareness for
the project and collaboration facilities like mailing lists, Ariel
suggested registering this project at http://developer.berlios.de/,
and it seems like a good idea. I guess I will move the project
there next weekend.
Regardless of hosting issues, I'd still send periodic patches to
include in http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk once somebody
answers the first question I quoted. And I will still push you
towards internationalising the page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/.
PD: Please don't send me private copies of your public answers. TIA.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com>.
On 2004-09-16, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> Good luck!,
Thanks for your encouragement. Some more questions:
The methodology we are using to translate is to take
a snapshot of the english book and translate it, which
results in partially translated .xml files. However, in
http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk I see that other translators
of the book only send you the completely translated files. We also
have README like files and custom makefile to generate a partially
translated spanish version of the book. Can I include these in
future patches or you only accept the .xml files (only if they
are complete)?
Rubén just asked if you could provide a mailing list for discussion
of Spanish translation issues. In my previous translation projects
I've never needed more than a few email exchanges to solve problems,
but I was working mostly alone and asking doesn't hurt.
Should I announce the translation project on
announce@subversion.tigris.org? Maybe somewhere else?
It would be nice if the web page at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
mentioned translation projects and redirected readers to the in
progress documents or maybe another web page. This increases the
project's awareness to subversion users and increases the chance
of somebody joining the translation project or reading/reviewing
the work done so far.
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Re: [BOOK] Translation to spanish
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
Grzegorz Adam Hankiewicz <gr...@titanium.sabren.com> writes:
> The only future difference from the English version will be a
> specific chapter or appendix informing about the translation
> project itself. Will you this work?
>
> Friends from Spain have told me that my translation to Spanish might
> conflict with any "official" translation in progress by O'Reilly. Who
> can I contact to make sure that I'm not duplicating effort? If this
> Spanish translation is finished, is there any guarantee that O'Reilly
> would use it to publish the book in Spain or would they ignore it?
If it's good, they'd probably use it -- but we don't know if they're
planning any translations. We recommend that you go ahead and start
translating. If you get something out there first, O'Reilly is much
more likely to pay attention to it (if they do translations at all),
and your translation will already be peer-reviewed too :-).
Good luck!,
-Karl
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