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Posted to dev@openaz.apache.org by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> on 2016/04/21 16:57:23 UTC
RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Hello developers!
I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
METHODOLOGY
I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a loose
scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those sprints
Saturday, April 23rd.
COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
(Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs, availability,
and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a Saturday
and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be around
an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning meetings.
COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times, and I
propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary times, and
I propose Skype as a candidate.
I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system beyond
email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience to
propose candidates.
PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
I further propose that all general discussions regarding these proposals in
general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00 PM
ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21, 2016).
I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if we
agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and decided no
later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for the
kickoff and regular meetings.
I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM GMT
Friday, April 22.
I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email starting
at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later than
6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
Thank you for your time!
David Ash
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:05 PM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the link, John! When was the page last updated?
>
I'm not sure I understand the relevance, but I'll move forward..
https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/infrastructure/site/trunk/content/foundation/how-it-works.mdtext?view=log
About 6 months ago.
John
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey guys
> >
> > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/
> > for
> > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> > >
> > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > > platform).
> > >
> > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > > meetings.
> > >
> > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello developers!
> > > >
> > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > >
> > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
> loose
> > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> > sprints
> > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > > availability,
> > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> > Saturday
> > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> > around
> > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > > meetings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> > and
> > > I
> > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> times,
> > > and
> > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
> beyond
> > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience
> to
> > > > propose candidates.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> > proposals
> > > in
> > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00
> > PM
> > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21,
> > > 2016).
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if
> we
> > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> > decided
> > > no
> > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for
> > the
> > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM
> > GMT
> > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > > starting
> > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later
> than
> > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > >
> > > > David Ash
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for the link, John! When was the page last updated?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hey guys
>
> I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> John
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/
> for
> > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> >
> > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > platform).
> >
> > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > meetings.
> >
> > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello developers!
> > >
> > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > METHODOLOGY
> > >
> > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a loose
> > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> sprints
> > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > >
> > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > availability,
> > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > >
> > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> Saturday
> > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> around
> > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > meetings.
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > >
> > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> and
> > I
> > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > >
> > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> > and
> > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > >
> > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system beyond
> > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience to
> > > propose candidates.
> > >
> > >
> > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > >
> > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> proposals
> > in
> > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00
> PM
> > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21,
> > 2016).
> > >
> > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if we
> > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> decided
> > no
> > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for
> the
> > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > >
> > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM
> GMT
> > > Friday, April 22.
> > >
> > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > starting
> > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later than
> > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for your time!
> > >
> > > David Ash
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>.
John,
"I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
requirements."
... is what's wrong with the whole mindset. This same mindset can bleed
into other thought processes, rendering the product just as meaningless.
With all due respect.
I view my role on this team as the "call bullshit when I see it" guy, in
addition to contributing code.
David may be more "soft and gentle" but the meaning of his words is no
different than mine.
Thanks,
Sam
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of
> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools like
> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to build
> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way to
> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for the
> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
> time is not reasonable for all.
>
> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're
> planning to operate.
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication
> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> >
> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified,
> even
> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> >
> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting
> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover
> > all
> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> > communities).
> > >
> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for example,
> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
> > normally
> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> understand
> > > than written text).
> > >
> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because
> it
> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
> > > nature of the various communities.
> >
> >
> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language
> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people
> that
> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the cost
> of
> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that
> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> >
> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- we
> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track.
> And
> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> >
> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the temporary
> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. But
> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
> > organize and attend.
> >
> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging and
> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> >
> > How does that sound, John?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey guys
> > >
> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> https://www.join.me/
> > > for
> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> > > >
> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > > > platform).
> > > >
> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > > > meetings.
> > > >
> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > >
> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
> > loose
> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> > > sprints
> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> Saturday
> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > > > availability,
> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> > > Saturday
> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> > > around
> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > > > meetings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> times,
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> > times,
> > > > and
> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
> > beyond
> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> audience
> > to
> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> > > proposals
> > > > in
> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is
> 8:00
> > > PM
> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April
> 21,
> > > > 2016).
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if
> > we
> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> > > decided
> > > > no
> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be
> most
> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day
> for
> > > the
> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00
> AM
> > > GMT
> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > > > starting
> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later
> > than
> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > >
> > > > > David Ash
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Thanks! One thing I learned at Zulily is that when leading teams, it's not
about managing people as much as managing momentum. It really is the most
vital activity we undertake.
On Apr 22, 2016 9:21 AM, "Sam Barrett" <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for keeping this moving forward and with urgency, David; too many
> projects fall by the wayside as devs get disenfranchised and lose the edge.
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:12 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> >
> > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
> > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> >
> > CANDIDATES
> > Voice
> > * Skype
> > * Discord
> >
> > Screen sharing
> > * Skype
> > * join.me
> >
> > Team chat
> > * HipChat
> > * Discord
> > * Skype
> > * Slack
> >
> >
> > MY VOTE
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
> >
> >
> > VOTES SO FAR
> > Sam
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> >
> > Inge
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > Kickoff meeting: ?
> >
> >
> > VOTING
> >
> > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday,
> April
> > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
> > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your involvement!
> >
> > David Ash
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> > details
> > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> > kickoff
> > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > >
> > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > > available.
> > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
> > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
> > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you
> can
> > > chat it is good.
> > >
> > > // Inge
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you
> > listed
> > > > those team chat options?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape
> as a
> > > > major
> > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > >
> > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> > > allows
> > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of
> > the
> > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and
> think
> > > > this
> > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on
> these
> > > > > proposals?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send
> out
> > a
> > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for
> > this
> > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a
> > more
> > > > >> positive name.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be
> set
> > > > well
> > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of
> days.
> > > > And
> > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and
> I
> > > > agree
> > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet,
> so
> > > > having
> > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> David
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > johndament@apache.org>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > > co-location
> > > > of
> > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using
> > tools
> > > > >>> like
> > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community
> > to
> > > > >>> build
> > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real
> > time
> > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists).
> > One
> > > > way
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> information
> > > for
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after
> the
> > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick
> > > times
> > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the
> actual
> > > UTC
> > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the
> ASF
> > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> > > > you're
> > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> John
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > John,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > > >>> communication
> > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the
> > list
> > > of
> > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > > > modified,
> > > > >>> even
> > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> "virtual
> > > > >>> meeting
> > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> > > > general
> > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed
> > to
> > > > >>> cover
> > > > >>> > all
> > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various
> Apache
> > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging
> (for
> > > > >>> example,
> > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely
> > rare,
> > > > >>> > normally
> > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder
> to
> > > > >>> understand
> > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> > > > >>> because it
> > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > > > volunteer
> > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> > > > >>> language
> > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of
> > > people
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And
> > the
> > > > >>> cost of
> > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest
> cost
> > to
> > > > our
> > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually
> > reduce
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an
> > > hour
> > > > of
> > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to
> > > start
> > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> > > > implore
> > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> > project
> > > > --
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> > > > >>> track. And
> > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> > > > >>> temporary
> > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > > anyways.
> > > > >>> But
> > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be
> able
> > > to
> > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > > messaging
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and
> faster
> > > > than
> > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > johndament@apache.org
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for
> how
> > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > John
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > >>> > > for
> > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> > > > >>> caster).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/
> > for
> > > > >>> group
> > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on
> the
> > > > free
> > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > communications.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months,
> we
> > > > use a
> > > > >>> > loose
> > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we
> start
> > > > those
> > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting
> on
> > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> > needs,
> > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two
> weeks
> > > on a
> > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings
> > > should
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>> > > around
> > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> > > > Planning
> > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time
> > audio
> > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> > necessary
> > > > >>> times,
> > > > >>> > > and
> > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> > sharing
> > > /
> > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > > necessary
> > > > >>> > times,
> > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> > > > system
> > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit
> this
> > > > >>> audience
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > > > DEADLINES
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding
> > > these
> > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22.
> > (That
> > > > is
> > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> Thursday
> > > > April
> > > > >>> 21,
> > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > > > meeting,
> > > > >>> if
> > > > >>> > we
> > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> > discussed
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > >>> most
> > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> > meeting
> > > > day
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>> > > the
> > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted
> > by
> > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions
> via
> > > > email
> > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed
> > no
> > > > >>> later
> > > > >>> > than
> > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for keeping this moving forward and with urgency, David; too many
projects fall by the wayside as devs get disenfranchised and lose the edge.
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:12 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
>
> It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
> moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
>
> CANDIDATES
> Voice
> * Skype
> * Discord
>
> Screen sharing
> * Skype
> * join.me
>
> Team chat
> * HipChat
> * Discord
> * Skype
> * Slack
>
>
> MY VOTE
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
>
>
> VOTES SO FAR
> Sam
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
>
> Inge
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: ?
> Kickoff meeting: ?
>
>
> VOTING
>
> Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday, April
> 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
> Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your involvement!
>
> David Ash
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> details
> > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> kickoff
> > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> >
> > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > available.
> > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
> > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
> > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you can
> > chat it is good.
> >
> > // Inge
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you
> listed
> > > those team chat options?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a
> > > major
> > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > >
> > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> > allows
> > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of
> the
> > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think
> > > this
> > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > >
> > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > >
> > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
> > > > proposals?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > >>
> > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out
> a
> > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for
> this
> > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a
> more
> > > >> positive name.
> > > >>
> > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set
> > > well
> > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days.
> > > And
> > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I
> > > agree
> > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > >>
> > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so
> > > having
> > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >> David
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > johndament@apache.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > co-location
> > > of
> > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using
> tools
> > > >>> like
> > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community
> to
> > > >>> build
> > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real
> time
> > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists).
> One
> > > way
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information
> > for
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick
> > times
> > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual
> > UTC
> > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> > > you're
> > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> John
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > John,
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > >>> communication
> > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the
> list
> > of
> > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > > modified,
> > > >>> even
> > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual
> > > >>> meeting
> > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> > > general
> > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed
> to
> > > >>> cover
> > > >>> > all
> > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> > > >>> > communities).
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
> > > >>> example,
> > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely
> rare,
> > > >>> > normally
> > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> > > >>> understand
> > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> > > >>> because it
> > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > > volunteer
> > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> > > >>> language
> > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of
> > people
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And
> the
> > > >>> cost of
> > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost
> to
> > > our
> > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually
> reduce
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an
> > hour
> > > of
> > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to
> > start
> > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> > > implore
> > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> project
> > > --
> > > >>> we
> > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> > > >>> track. And
> > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> > > >>> temporary
> > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > anyways.
> > > >>> But
> > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able
> > to
> > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > messaging
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster
> > > than
> > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > johndament@apache.org
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > John
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > sam.barrett@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > >>> > > for
> > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> > > >>> caster).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/
> for
> > > >>> group
> > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the
> > > free
> > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > planning/retrospective
> > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > communications.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we
> > > use a
> > > >>> > loose
> > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start
> > > those
> > > >>> > > sprints
> > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> > > >>> Saturday
> > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> needs,
> > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks
> > on a
> > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings
> > should
> > > >>> be
> > > >>> > > around
> > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> > > Planning
> > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time
> audio
> > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> necessary
> > > >>> times,
> > > >>> > > and
> > > >>> > > > I
> > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> sharing
> > /
> > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > necessary
> > > >>> > times,
> > > >>> > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> > > system
> > > >>> > beyond
> > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> > > >>> audience
> > > >>> > to
> > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > > DEADLINES
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding
> > these
> > > >>> > > proposals
> > > >>> > > > in
> > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22.
> (That
> > > is
> > > >>> 8:00
> > > >>> > > PM
> > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday
> > > April
> > > >>> 21,
> > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > > meeting,
> > > >>> if
> > > >>> > we
> > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> discussed
> > > and
> > > >>> > > decided
> > > >>> > > > no
> > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it
> would
> > > be
> > > >>> most
> > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> meeting
> > > day
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> > > the
> > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted
> by
> > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > >>> > > GMT
> > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via
> > > email
> > > >>> > > > starting
> > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed
> no
> > > >>> later
> > > >>> > than
> > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Sounds great, thanks!
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016, 11:35 AM Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can set the chat stuff up. From what I can see Slack won the vote. So I
> will set it up.
> You will get emails when that is done.
>
> best regards
> Inge
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 5:21 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, that's a good enough path forward. Can you set up the chat stuff,
> or
> > would you prefer me to do that?
> >
> > I can help with the repo stuff too, although we need the website repo
> > mirrored onto github before we work on that and it seems like it could be
> > weeks before someone that has that ability will do it. But to get the
> > source code for the main project, just fork the github repo:
> >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-openaz
> >
> > Then clone your fork. Any changes you make will be made to your fork,
> and
> > you can then use github to make pull requests.
> >
> >
> > It's not particularly functional until the admin portion is there, and my
> > pull request that ported over the admin portion is still in github,
> > unmerged.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi David,
> > >
> > > First and foremost I think we should start up the chat client, get that
> > up.
> > > Get the admin stuff up. Get the repo up so it is possible to
> familiarize
> > > oneself with the project and its current status.
> > > Once that is done, it is possible to see where we are and it becomes
> > easier
> > > to see what is required.
> > >
> > > //
> > > Inge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Okay, we never managed to get a vote through regarding time anyways.
> So
> > > > there's not going to be a meeting because advanced notice can't be
> met
> > at
> > > > this point. And we can add two votes against having the meeting,
> also,
> > > and
> > > > one of them being cast many days after the original email. And we
> never
> > > > heard from all the developers. And we never heard from the PMC on the
> > > other
> > > > thread.
> > > >
> > > > So we couldn't pull off an emergency meeting. We couldn't pull that
> > off?
> > > > Sam and Inge, you were both involved, and thanks. John was there.
> > > Emmanuel
> > > > was late, but he showed up.
> > > >
> > > > But we failed. Hopes of wasted emails. Really? There's not much work
> > to
> > > do
> > > > to get this software into an initial release. But if we can't
> > > successfully
> > > > coordinate an emergency meeting over the course of 4 days we're
> > probably
> > > > doomed after all.
> > > >
> > > > Well, unless either one or more of us just start working without
> > > > coordinating. Pocket development could work. Coordinating and voting
> is
> > > > just hopeless though. I mean we could just start making tasks and
> > > assigning
> > > > them out, we could call that coordinating. But I don't give people 4
> > days
> > > > to say they can't do a task. That's not acceptable. No, I've spent
> > > several
> > > > hours on these emails. We haven't accomplished 5 minutes worth of
> > > > anything... not even close to what we could do on a real time voice
> > > call. I
> > > > can't afford that time for that little result.
> > > >
> > > > Now if the PMC had stepped up and at least replied about making us
> > > > committers, maybe that would be something. But it's all crickets
> > there.
> > > >
> > > > How do we move forward?
> > > > On Apr 23, 2016 8:37 PM, "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments inline...
> > > > >
> > > > > Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a
> écrit
> > :
> > > > >
> > > > > > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have
> to
> > > keep
> > > > > > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CANDIDATES
> > > > > > Voice
> > > > > > * Skype
> > > > > > * Discord
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will
> > simply
> > > > > won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly
> > day:
> > > ie
> > > > > we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had
> > cut
> > > a
> > > > > deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Screen sharing
> > > > > > * Skype
> > > > > > * join.me
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Team chat
> > > > > > * HipChat
> > > > > > * Discord
> > > > > > * Skype
> > > > > > * Slack
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real
> time
> > > > > communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in
> > the
> > > > > long run...
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MY VOTE
> > > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF,
> > midnight
> > > > in
> > > > > New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on
> > another
> > > > > project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a
> > > failure.
> > > > >
> > > > > As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works:
> asynchronous,
> > > > > archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > VOTES SO FAR
> > > > > > Sam
> > > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Inge
> > > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > > > > > Kickoff meeting: ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > VOTING
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than
> > Saturday,
> > > > > April
> > > > > > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > > > > > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later
> > > than
> > > > > > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your involvement!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David Ash
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> > > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me.
> > The
> > > > > > details
> > > > > > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have
> > the
> > > > > > kickoff
> > > > > > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > > > > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in
> the
> > > US.
> > > > > > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing
> option
> > > > > > > available.
> > > > > > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in
> so
> > > > many
> > > > > > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for
> > me.
> > > I
> > > > do
> > > > > > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long
> as
> > > you
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > chat it is good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > // Inge
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <
> green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack
> when
> > > you
> > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > > those team chat options?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <
> > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't
> > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red
> > > tape
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > major
> > > > > > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a
> compromise
> > > that
> > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the
> > > intentions
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here,
> > and
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts
> > on
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > proposals?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <
> > > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure
> > > > connectivity
> > > > > > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then
> > > send
> > > > > out
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours
> > enough
> > > > for
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting
> > > under a
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >> positive name.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next
> couple
> > of
> > > > > days.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even
> > though
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing
> > so,
> > > > and
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > agree
> > > > > > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within
> > the
> > > > > > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the
> requirements
> > > yet,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > having
> > > > > > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> David
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to
> avoid
> > > > > > > co-location
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that
> > > using
> > > > > > tools
> > > > > > > > >>> like
> > > > > > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the
> > > > community
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >>> build
> > > > > > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from
> the
> > > real
> > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing
> > > lists).
> > > > > > One
> > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary
> > > after
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible
> > and
> > > > pick
> > > > > > > times
> > > > > > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if
> > the
> > > > > actual
> > > > > > > UTC
> > > > > > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds
> of
> > > the
> > > > > ASF
> > > > > > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree
> > with
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > you're
> > > > > > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> John
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <
> > > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> > John,
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than
> > the
> > > > > > > > >>> communication
> > > > > > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next
> > > week).
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal,
> > > though
> > > > > > > > modified,
> > > > > > > > >>> even
> > > > > > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> > > > > "virtual
> > > > > > > > >>> meeting
> > > > > > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously,
> which
> > > is
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > general
> > > > > > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically
> > > > distributed
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >>> cover
> > > > > > > > >>> > all
> > > > > > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the
> various
> > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous
> > messaging
> > > > > (for
> > > > > > > > >>> example,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is
> > > extremely
> > > > > > rare,
> > > > > > > > >>> > normally
> > > > > > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is
> > > harder
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >>> understand
> > > > > > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > >>> because it
> > > > > > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > volunteer
> > > > > > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> language
> > > > > > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group
> > consists
> > > > of
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all
> > natively.
> > > > And
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> cost of
> > > > > > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the
> > greatest
> > > > > cost
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will
> > > actually
> > > > > > reduce
> > > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more
> > > than
> > > > an
> > > > > > > hour
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need
> > > things
> > > > to
> > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But
> I'd
> > > > also
> > > > > > > > implore
> > > > > > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix
> > this
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > >>> we
> > > > > > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're
> > > back
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > >>> track. And
> > > > > > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to
> > attend
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> temporary
> > > > > > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it
> > mandatory
> > > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >>> But
> > > > > > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move
> quickly
> > > be
> > > > > able
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both
> > synchronous
> > > > > > > messaging
> > > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better
> > and
> > > > > faster
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some
> expectations
> > > for
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review
> -
> > > > > > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > John
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > > > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > > > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > > > > > >>> > > for
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users,
> > including
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> caster).
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing
> > > > https://www.skype.com/
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >>> group
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent
> > users
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > free
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > > > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > > > > > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > > > > > communications.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three
> > > > months,
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > use a
> > > > > > > > >>> > loose
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that
> > we
> > > > > start
> > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff
> > > > meeting
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the
> > religious
> > > > > > needs,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is
> > > Sunday.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every
> > two
> > > > > weeks
> > > > > > > on a
> > > > > > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These
> > > > meetings
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > > > >>> > > around
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a
> > > > Sprint
> > > > > > > > Planning
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for
> > > real-time
> > > > > > audio
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at
> other
> > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > >>> times,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for
> > screen
> > > > > > sharing
> > > > > > > /
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at
> > other
> > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > >>> > times,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time
> > team
> > > > chat
> > > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but
> > > solicit
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > >>> audience
> > > > > > > > >>> > to
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED
> > > DISCUSSION
> > > > > > > > DEADLINES
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions
> > > > regarding
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday
> April
> > > 22.
> > > > > > (That
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > > > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> > > > > Thursday
> > > > > > > > April
> > > > > > > > >>> 21,
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the
> > > kickoff
> > > > > > > > meeting,
> > > > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > > > >>> > we
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held,
> be
> > > > > > discussed
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I
> > think
> > > it
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > >>> most
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference
> of
> > a
> > > > > > meeting
> > > > > > > > day
> > > > > > > > >>> for
> > > > > > > > >>> > > the
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be
> > > > submitted
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > > > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of
> > > solutions
> > > > > via
> > > > > > > > email
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be
> > > > completed
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > >>> later
> > > > > > > > >>> > than
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and
> comments.
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > > Emmanuel Lécharny
> > > > > www.iktek.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com>.
I can set the chat stuff up. From what I can see Slack won the vote. So I
will set it up.
You will get emails when that is done.
best regards
Inge
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 5:21 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, that's a good enough path forward. Can you set up the chat stuff, or
> would you prefer me to do that?
>
> I can help with the repo stuff too, although we need the website repo
> mirrored onto github before we work on that and it seems like it could be
> weeks before someone that has that ability will do it. But to get the
> source code for the main project, just fork the github repo:
>
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-openaz
>
> Then clone your fork. Any changes you make will be made to your fork, and
> you can then use github to make pull requests.
>
>
> It's not particularly functional until the admin portion is there, and my
> pull request that ported over the admin portion is still in github,
> unmerged.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi David,
> >
> > First and foremost I think we should start up the chat client, get that
> up.
> > Get the admin stuff up. Get the repo up so it is possible to familiarize
> > oneself with the project and its current status.
> > Once that is done, it is possible to see where we are and it becomes
> easier
> > to see what is required.
> >
> > //
> > Inge
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Okay, we never managed to get a vote through regarding time anyways. So
> > > there's not going to be a meeting because advanced notice can't be met
> at
> > > this point. And we can add two votes against having the meeting, also,
> > and
> > > one of them being cast many days after the original email. And we never
> > > heard from all the developers. And we never heard from the PMC on the
> > other
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > So we couldn't pull off an emergency meeting. We couldn't pull that
> off?
> > > Sam and Inge, you were both involved, and thanks. John was there.
> > Emmanuel
> > > was late, but he showed up.
> > >
> > > But we failed. Hopes of wasted emails. Really? There's not much work
> to
> > do
> > > to get this software into an initial release. But if we can't
> > successfully
> > > coordinate an emergency meeting over the course of 4 days we're
> probably
> > > doomed after all.
> > >
> > > Well, unless either one or more of us just start working without
> > > coordinating. Pocket development could work. Coordinating and voting is
> > > just hopeless though. I mean we could just start making tasks and
> > assigning
> > > them out, we could call that coordinating. But I don't give people 4
> days
> > > to say they can't do a task. That's not acceptable. No, I've spent
> > several
> > > hours on these emails. We haven't accomplished 5 minutes worth of
> > > anything... not even close to what we could do on a real time voice
> > call. I
> > > can't afford that time for that little result.
> > >
> > > Now if the PMC had stepped up and at least replied about making us
> > > committers, maybe that would be something. But it's all crickets
> there.
> > >
> > > How do we move forward?
> > > On Apr 23, 2016 8:37 PM, "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline...
> > > >
> > > > Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a écrit
> :
> > > >
> > > > > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> > > > >
> > > > > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to
> > keep
> > > > > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> > > > >
> > > > > CANDIDATES
> > > > > Voice
> > > > > * Skype
> > > > > * Discord
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will
> simply
> > > > won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly
> day:
> > ie
> > > > we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had
> cut
> > a
> > > > deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Screen sharing
> > > > > * Skype
> > > > > * join.me
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Team chat
> > > > > * HipChat
> > > > > * Discord
> > > > > * Skype
> > > > > * Slack
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time
> > > > communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in
> the
> > > > long run...
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > MY VOTE
> > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > >
> > > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF,
> midnight
> > > in
> > > > New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on
> another
> > > > project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a
> > failure.
> > > >
> > > > As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous,
> > > > archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > VOTES SO FAR
> > > > > Sam
> > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > >
> > > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Inge
> > > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > > >
> > > > > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > > > > Kickoff meeting: ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > VOTING
> > > > >
> > > > > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than
> Saturday,
> > > > April
> > > > > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > > > > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later
> > than
> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your involvement!
> > > > >
> > > > > David Ash
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me.
> The
> > > > > details
> > > > > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have
> the
> > > > > kickoff
> > > > > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > > > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the
> > US.
> > > > > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > > > > > available.
> > > > > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so
> > > many
> > > > > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for
> me.
> > I
> > > do
> > > > > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as
> > you
> > > > can
> > > > > > chat it is good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > // Inge
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when
> > you
> > > > > listed
> > > > > > > those team chat options?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <
> > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't
> appreciate
> > > > > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red
> > tape
> > > > as a
> > > > > > > major
> > > > > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise
> > that
> > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the
> > intentions
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here,
> and
> > > > think
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts
> on
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > proposals?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <
> > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure
> > > connectivity
> > > > > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then
> > send
> > > > out
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours
> enough
> > > for
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting
> > under a
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > >> positive name.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day
> would
> > be
> > > > set
> > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple
> of
> > > > days.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even
> though
> > > I'm
> > > > > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing
> so,
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > > > > agree
> > > > > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within
> the
> > > > > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements
> > yet,
> > > > so
> > > > > > > having
> > > > > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> David
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > > > > > co-location
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that
> > using
> > > > > tools
> > > > > > > >>> like
> > > > > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the
> > > community
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> build
> > > > > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the
> > real
> > > > > time
> > > > > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing
> > lists).
> > > > > One
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > > information
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary
> > after
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible
> and
> > > pick
> > > > > > times
> > > > > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if
> the
> > > > actual
> > > > > > UTC
> > > > > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of
> > the
> > > > ASF
> > > > > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree
> with
> > > how
> > > > > > > you're
> > > > > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> John
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <
> > > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> > John,
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than
> the
> > > > > > > >>> communication
> > > > > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to
> > the
> > > > > list
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next
> > week).
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal,
> > though
> > > > > > > modified,
> > > > > > > >>> even
> > > > > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> > > > "virtual
> > > > > > > >>> meeting
> > > > > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > > > general
> > > > > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically
> > > distributed
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> cover
> > > > > > > >>> > all
> > > > > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various
> > > > Apache
> > > > > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous
> messaging
> > > > (for
> > > > > > > >>> example,
> > > > > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is
> > extremely
> > > > > rare,
> > > > > > > >>> > normally
> > > > > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is
> > harder
> > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> understand
> > > > > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more
> > > important
> > > > > > > >>> because it
> > > > > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on
> > the
> > > > > > > volunteer
> > > > > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > > >>> language
> > > > > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group
> consists
> > > of
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all
> natively.
> > > And
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> cost of
> > > > > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the
> greatest
> > > > cost
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will
> > actually
> > > > > reduce
> > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more
> > than
> > > an
> > > > > > hour
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need
> > things
> > > to
> > > > > > start
> > > > > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd
> > > also
> > > > > > > implore
> > > > > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix
> this
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > >>> we
> > > > > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're
> > back
> > > on
> > > > > > > >>> track. And
> > > > > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to
> attend
> > > the
> > > > > > > >>> temporary
> > > > > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it
> mandatory
> > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > >>> But
> > > > > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both
> synchronous
> > > > > > messaging
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better
> and
> > > > faster
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations
> > for
> > > > how
> > > > > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > > > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > John
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > > > > >>> > > for
> > > > > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users,
> including
> > > the
> > > > > > > >>> caster).
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing
> > > https://www.skype.com/
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > >>> group
> > > > > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent
> users
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > free
> > > > > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > > > > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > > > > communications.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three
> > > months,
> > > > we
> > > > > > > use a
> > > > > > > >>> > loose
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that
> we
> > > > start
> > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff
> > > meeting
> > > > on
> > > > > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the
> religious
> > > > > needs,
> > > > > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is
> > Sunday.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every
> two
> > > > weeks
> > > > > > on a
> > > > > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These
> > > meetings
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > > >>> > > around
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a
> > > Sprint
> > > > > > > Planning
> > > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for
> > real-time
> > > > > audio
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > >>> times,
> > > > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for
> screen
> > > > > sharing
> > > > > > /
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at
> other
> > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > >>> > times,
> > > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time
> team
> > > chat
> > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but
> > solicit
> > > > this
> > > > > > > >>> audience
> > > > > > > >>> > to
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED
> > DISCUSSION
> > > > > > > DEADLINES
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions
> > > regarding
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April
> > 22.
> > > > > (That
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> > > > Thursday
> > > > > > > April
> > > > > > > >>> 21,
> > > > > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the
> > kickoff
> > > > > > > meeting,
> > > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > > >>> > we
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> > > > > discussed
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I
> think
> > it
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>> most
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of
> a
> > > > > meeting
> > > > > > > day
> > > > > > > >>> for
> > > > > > > >>> > > the
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be
> > > submitted
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of
> > solutions
> > > > via
> > > > > > > email
> > > > > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be
> > > completed
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > >>> later
> > > > > > > >>> > than
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Cordialement,
> > > > Emmanuel Lécharny
> > > > www.iktek.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Yeah, that's a good enough path forward. Can you set up the chat stuff, or
would you prefer me to do that?
I can help with the repo stuff too, although we need the website repo
mirrored onto github before we work on that and it seems like it could be
weeks before someone that has that ability will do it. But to get the
source code for the main project, just fork the github repo:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-openaz
Then clone your fork. Any changes you make will be made to your fork, and
you can then use github to make pull requests.
It's not particularly functional until the admin portion is there, and my
pull request that ported over the admin portion is still in github,
unmerged.
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> First and foremost I think we should start up the chat client, get that up.
> Get the admin stuff up. Get the repo up so it is possible to familiarize
> oneself with the project and its current status.
> Once that is done, it is possible to see where we are and it becomes easier
> to see what is required.
>
> //
> Inge
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Okay, we never managed to get a vote through regarding time anyways. So
> > there's not going to be a meeting because advanced notice can't be met at
> > this point. And we can add two votes against having the meeting, also,
> and
> > one of them being cast many days after the original email. And we never
> > heard from all the developers. And we never heard from the PMC on the
> other
> > thread.
> >
> > So we couldn't pull off an emergency meeting. We couldn't pull that off?
> > Sam and Inge, you were both involved, and thanks. John was there.
> Emmanuel
> > was late, but he showed up.
> >
> > But we failed. Hopes of wasted emails. Really? There's not much work to
> do
> > to get this software into an initial release. But if we can't
> successfully
> > coordinate an emergency meeting over the course of 4 days we're probably
> > doomed after all.
> >
> > Well, unless either one or more of us just start working without
> > coordinating. Pocket development could work. Coordinating and voting is
> > just hopeless though. I mean we could just start making tasks and
> assigning
> > them out, we could call that coordinating. But I don't give people 4 days
> > to say they can't do a task. That's not acceptable. No, I've spent
> several
> > hours on these emails. We haven't accomplished 5 minutes worth of
> > anything... not even close to what we could do on a real time voice
> call. I
> > can't afford that time for that little result.
> >
> > Now if the PMC had stepped up and at least replied about making us
> > committers, maybe that would be something. But it's all crickets there.
> >
> > How do we move forward?
> > On Apr 23, 2016 8:37 PM, "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
> > >
> > > Comments inline...
> > >
> > > Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> > >
> > > > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> > > >
> > > > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to
> keep
> > > > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> > > >
> > > > CANDIDATES
> > > > Voice
> > > > * Skype
> > > > * Discord
> > >
> > >
> > > Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will simply
> > > won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly day:
> ie
> > > we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had cut
> a
> > > deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Screen sharing
> > > > * Skype
> > > > * join.me
> > >
> > >
> > > Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Team chat
> > > > * HipChat
> > > > * Discord
> > > > * Skype
> > > > * Slack
> > >
> > >
> > > Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time
> > > communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in the
> > > long run...
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > MY VOTE
> > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > >
> > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
> > >
> > >
> > > Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF, midnight
> > in
> > > New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on another
> > > project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a
> failure.
> > >
> > > As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous,
> > > archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > VOTES SO FAR
> > > > Sam
> > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > >
> > > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> > > >
> > > > Inge
> > > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > > >
> > > > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > > > Kickoff meeting: ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > VOTING
> > > >
> > > > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday,
> > > April
> > > > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > > > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later
> than
> > > > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your involvement!
> > > >
> > > > David Ash
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> > > > details
> > > > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> > > > kickoff
> > > > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > > > >
> > > > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the
> US.
> > > > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > > > > available.
> > > > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so
> > many
> > > > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me.
> I
> > do
> > > > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as
> you
> > > can
> > > > > chat it is good.
> > > > >
> > > > > // Inge
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when
> you
> > > > listed
> > > > > > those team chat options?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <
> green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red
> tape
> > > as a
> > > > > > major
> > > > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise
> that
> > > > > allows
> > > > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the
> intentions
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and
> > > think
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on
> > > these
> > > > > > > proposals?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <
> > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure
> > connectivity
> > > > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then
> send
> > > out
> > > > a
> > > > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough
> > for
> > > > this
> > > > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting
> under a
> > > > more
> > > > > > >> positive name.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would
> be
> > > set
> > > > > > well
> > > > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of
> > > days.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though
> > I'm
> > > > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so,
> > and
> > > I
> > > > > > agree
> > > > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements
> yet,
> > > so
> > > > > > having
> > > > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> David
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > > > > co-location
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that
> using
> > > > tools
> > > > > > >>> like
> > > > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the
> > community
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> build
> > > > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the
> real
> > > > time
> > > > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing
> lists).
> > > > One
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > information
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary
> after
> > > the
> > > > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and
> > pick
> > > > > times
> > > > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the
> > > actual
> > > > > UTC
> > > > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of
> the
> > > ASF
> > > > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with
> > how
> > > > > > you're
> > > > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> John
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <
> > green.neon@gmail.com
> > > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> > John,
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > > > > >>> communication
> > > > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to
> the
> > > > list
> > > > > of
> > > > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next
> week).
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal,
> though
> > > > > > modified,
> > > > > > >>> even
> > > > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> > > "virtual
> > > > > > >>> meeting
> > > > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which
> is
> > a
> > > > > > general
> > > > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically
> > distributed
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> cover
> > > > > > >>> > all
> > > > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various
> > > Apache
> > > > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging
> > > (for
> > > > > > >>> example,
> > > > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is
> extremely
> > > > rare,
> > > > > > >>> > normally
> > > > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is
> harder
> > > to
> > > > > > >>> understand
> > > > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more
> > important
> > > > > > >>> because it
> > > > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on
> the
> > > > > > volunteer
> > > > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and
> > the
> > > > > > >>> language
> > > > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists
> > of
> > > > > people
> > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively.
> > And
> > > > the
> > > > > > >>> cost of
> > > > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest
> > > cost
> > > > to
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will
> actually
> > > > reduce
> > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more
> than
> > an
> > > > > hour
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need
> things
> > to
> > > > > start
> > > > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd
> > also
> > > > > > implore
> > > > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> > > > project
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > >>> we
> > > > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're
> back
> > on
> > > > > > >>> track. And
> > > > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend
> > the
> > > > > > >>> temporary
> > > > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > >>> But
> > > > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly
> be
> > > able
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > > > > messaging
> > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and
> > > faster
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations
> for
> > > how
> > > > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > John
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > > > >>> > > for
> > > > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including
> > the
> > > > > > >>> caster).
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing
> > https://www.skype.com/
> > > > for
> > > > > > >>> group
> > > > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > free
> > > > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > > > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > > > communications.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three
> > months,
> > > we
> > > > > > use a
> > > > > > >>> > loose
> > > > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we
> > > start
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff
> > meeting
> > > on
> > > > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> > > > needs,
> > > > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is
> Sunday.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two
> > > weeks
> > > > > on a
> > > > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These
> > meetings
> > > > > should
> > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > >>> > > around
> > > > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a
> > Sprint
> > > > > > Planning
> > > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for
> real-time
> > > > audio
> > > > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> > > > necessary
> > > > > > >>> times,
> > > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> > > > sharing
> > > > > /
> > > > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > >>> > times,
> > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team
> > chat
> > > > > > system
> > > > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but
> solicit
> > > this
> > > > > > >>> audience
> > > > > > >>> > to
> > > > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED
> DISCUSSION
> > > > > > DEADLINES
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions
> > regarding
> > > > > these
> > > > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April
> 22.
> > > > (That
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> > > Thursday
> > > > > > April
> > > > > > >>> 21,
> > > > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the
> kickoff
> > > > > > meeting,
> > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > >>> > we
> > > > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> > > > discussed
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think
> it
> > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > >>> most
> > > > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> > > > meeting
> > > > > > day
> > > > > > >>> for
> > > > > > >>> > > the
> > > > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be
> > submitted
> > > > by
> > > > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of
> solutions
> > > via
> > > > > > email
> > > > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be
> > completed
> > > > no
> > > > > > >>> later
> > > > > > >>> > than
> > > > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > > Cordialement,
> > > Emmanuel Lécharny
> > > www.iktek.com
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com>.
Hi David,
First and foremost I think we should start up the chat client, get that up.
Get the admin stuff up. Get the repo up so it is possible to familiarize
oneself with the project and its current status.
Once that is done, it is possible to see where we are and it becomes easier
to see what is required.
//
Inge
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, we never managed to get a vote through regarding time anyways. So
> there's not going to be a meeting because advanced notice can't be met at
> this point. And we can add two votes against having the meeting, also, and
> one of them being cast many days after the original email. And we never
> heard from all the developers. And we never heard from the PMC on the other
> thread.
>
> So we couldn't pull off an emergency meeting. We couldn't pull that off?
> Sam and Inge, you were both involved, and thanks. John was there. Emmanuel
> was late, but he showed up.
>
> But we failed. Hopes of wasted emails. Really? There's not much work to do
> to get this software into an initial release. But if we can't successfully
> coordinate an emergency meeting over the course of 4 days we're probably
> doomed after all.
>
> Well, unless either one or more of us just start working without
> coordinating. Pocket development could work. Coordinating and voting is
> just hopeless though. I mean we could just start making tasks and assigning
> them out, we could call that coordinating. But I don't give people 4 days
> to say they can't do a task. That's not acceptable. No, I've spent several
> hours on these emails. We haven't accomplished 5 minutes worth of
> anything... not even close to what we could do on a real time voice call. I
> can't afford that time for that little result.
>
> Now if the PMC had stepped up and at least replied about making us
> committers, maybe that would be something. But it's all crickets there.
>
> How do we move forward?
> On Apr 23, 2016 8:37 PM, "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
> >
> > Comments inline...
> >
> > Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >
> > > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> > >
> > > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
> > > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> > >
> > > CANDIDATES
> > > Voice
> > > * Skype
> > > * Discord
> >
> >
> > Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will simply
> > won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly day: ie
> > we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had cut a
> > deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
> >
> > >
> > > Screen sharing
> > > * Skype
> > > * join.me
> >
> >
> > Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Team chat
> > > * HipChat
> > > * Discord
> > > * Skype
> > > * Slack
> >
> >
> > Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time
> > communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in the
> > long run...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > MY VOTE
> > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > >
> > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
> >
> >
> > Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF, midnight
> in
> > New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on another
> > project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a failure.
> >
> > As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous,
> > archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > VOTES SO FAR
> > > Sam
> > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > >
> > > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> > >
> > > Inge
> > > 1. Voice - Skype
> > > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > > 3. Team chat - Slack
> > >
> > > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > > Kickoff meeting: ?
> > >
> > >
> > > VOTING
> > >
> > > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday,
> > April
> > > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
> > > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for your involvement!
> > >
> > > David Ash
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> > > details
> > > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> > > kickoff
> > > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > > >
> > > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> > > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > > > available.
> > > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so
> many
> > > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I
> do
> > > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you
> > can
> > > > chat it is good.
> > > >
> > > > // Inge
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you
> > > listed
> > > > > those team chat options?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape
> > as a
> > > > > major
> > > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> > > > allows
> > > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and
> > think
> > > > > this
> > > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on
> > these
> > > > > > proposals?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <
> green.neon@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure
> connectivity
> > > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send
> > out
> > > a
> > > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough
> for
> > > this
> > > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a
> > > more
> > > > > >> positive name.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be
> > set
> > > > > well
> > > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of
> > days.
> > > > > And
> > > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though
> I'm
> > > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so,
> and
> > I
> > > > > agree
> > > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet,
> > so
> > > > > having
> > > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> David
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > > > co-location
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using
> > > tools
> > > > > >>> like
> > > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the
> community
> > > to
> > > > > >>> build
> > > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real
> > > time
> > > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists).
> > > One
> > > > > way
> > > > > >>> to
> > > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > information
> > > > for
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after
> > the
> > > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and
> pick
> > > > times
> > > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the
> > actual
> > > > UTC
> > > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the
> > ASF
> > > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with
> how
> > > > > you're
> > > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> John
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <
> green.neon@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:;>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> > John,
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > > > >>> communication
> > > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the
> > > list
> > > > of
> > > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > > > > modified,
> > > > > >>> even
> > > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> > "virtual
> > > > > >>> meeting
> > > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is
> a
> > > > > general
> > > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically
> distributed
> > > to
> > > > > >>> cover
> > > > > >>> > all
> > > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various
> > Apache
> > > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging
> > (for
> > > > > >>> example,
> > > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely
> > > rare,
> > > > > >>> > normally
> > > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder
> > to
> > > > > >>> understand
> > > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more
> important
> > > > > >>> because it
> > > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > > > > volunteer
> > > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and
> the
> > > > > >>> language
> > > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists
> of
> > > > people
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively.
> And
> > > the
> > > > > >>> cost of
> > > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest
> > cost
> > > to
> > > > > our
> > > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually
> > > reduce
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than
> an
> > > > hour
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things
> to
> > > > start
> > > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd
> also
> > > > > implore
> > > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> > > project
> > > > > --
> > > > > >>> we
> > > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back
> on
> > > > > >>> track. And
> > > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend
> the
> > > > > >>> temporary
> > > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > > > anyways.
> > > > > >>> But
> > > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > > > messaging
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and
> > faster
> > > > > than
> > > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for
> > how
> > > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > John
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > > >>> > > for
> > > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including
> the
> > > > > >>> caster).
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing
> https://www.skype.com/
> > > for
> > > > > >>> group
> > > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on
> > the
> > > > > free
> > > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > > communications.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three
> months,
> > we
> > > > > use a
> > > > > >>> > loose
> > > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we
> > start
> > > > > those
> > > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff
> meeting
> > on
> > > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> > > needs,
> > > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two
> > weeks
> > > > on a
> > > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These
> meetings
> > > > should
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>> > > around
> > > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a
> Sprint
> > > > > Planning
> > > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time
> > > audio
> > > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> > > necessary
> > > > > >>> times,
> > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> > > sharing
> > > > /
> > > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > > > necessary
> > > > > >>> > times,
> > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team
> chat
> > > > > system
> > > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit
> > this
> > > > > >>> audience
> > > > > >>> > to
> > > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > > > > DEADLINES
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions
> regarding
> > > > these
> > > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22.
> > > (That
> > > > > is
> > > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> > Thursday
> > > > > April
> > > > > >>> 21,
> > > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > > > > meeting,
> > > > > >>> if
> > > > > >>> > we
> > > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> > > discussed
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it
> > > would
> > > > > be
> > > > > >>> most
> > > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> > > meeting
> > > > > day
> > > > > >>> for
> > > > > >>> > > the
> > > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be
> submitted
> > > by
> > > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions
> > via
> > > > > email
> > > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be
> completed
> > > no
> > > > > >>> later
> > > > > >>> > than
> > > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Cordialement,
> > Emmanuel Lécharny
> > www.iktek.com
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Okay, we never managed to get a vote through regarding time anyways. So
there's not going to be a meeting because advanced notice can't be met at
this point. And we can add two votes against having the meeting, also, and
one of them being cast many days after the original email. And we never
heard from all the developers. And we never heard from the PMC on the other
thread.
So we couldn't pull off an emergency meeting. We couldn't pull that off?
Sam and Inge, you were both involved, and thanks. John was there. Emmanuel
was late, but he showed up.
But we failed. Hopes of wasted emails. Really? There's not much work to do
to get this software into an initial release. But if we can't successfully
coordinate an emergency meeting over the course of 4 days we're probably
doomed after all.
Well, unless either one or more of us just start working without
coordinating. Pocket development could work. Coordinating and voting is
just hopeless though. I mean we could just start making tasks and assigning
them out, we could call that coordinating. But I don't give people 4 days
to say they can't do a task. That's not acceptable. No, I've spent several
hours on these emails. We haven't accomplished 5 minutes worth of
anything... not even close to what we could do on a real time voice call. I
can't afford that time for that little result.
Now if the PMC had stepped up and at least replied about making us
committers, maybe that would be something. But it's all crickets there.
How do we move forward?
On Apr 23, 2016 8:37 PM, "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
>
> Comments inline...
>
> Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> > Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
> >
> > It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
> > moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
> >
> > CANDIDATES
> > Voice
> > * Skype
> > * Discord
>
>
> Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will simply
> won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly day: ie
> we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had cut a
> deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
>
> >
> > Screen sharing
> > * Skype
> > * join.me
>
>
> Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
>
>
> >
> > Team chat
> > * HipChat
> > * Discord
> > * Skype
> > * Slack
>
>
> Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time
> communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in the
> long run...
>
> >
> >
> > MY VOTE
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
>
>
> Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF, midnight in
> New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on another
> project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a failure.
>
> As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous,
> archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
>
> Emmanuel
>
>
> >
> >
> > VOTES SO FAR
> > Sam
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> > Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
> >
> > Inge
> > 1. Voice - Skype
> > 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> > 3. Team chat - Slack
> >
> > Temporary regular meetings: ?
> > Kickoff meeting: ?
> >
> >
> > VOTING
> >
> > Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday,
> April
> > 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> > Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
> > Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your involvement!
> >
> > David Ash
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> > details
> > > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> > kickoff
> > > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> > >
> > > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> > > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > > available.
> > > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
> > > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
> > > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you
> can
> > > chat it is good.
> > >
> > > // Inge
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you
> > listed
> > > > those team chat options?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape
> as a
> > > > major
> > > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > > >
> > > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> > > allows
> > > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of
> > the
> > > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and
> think
> > > > this
> > > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on
> these
> > > > > proposals?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send
> out
> > a
> > > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for
> > this
> > > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a
> > more
> > > > >> positive name.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be
> set
> > > > well
> > > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of
> days.
> > > > And
> > > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> > > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and
> I
> > > > agree
> > > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet,
> so
> > > > having
> > > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> David
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > > co-location
> > > > of
> > > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using
> > tools
> > > > >>> like
> > > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community
> > to
> > > > >>> build
> > > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real
> > time
> > > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists).
> > One
> > > > way
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> information
> > > for
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after
> the
> > > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick
> > > times
> > > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the
> actual
> > > UTC
> > > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the
> ASF
> > > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> > > > you're
> > > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> John
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > John,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > > >>> communication
> > > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the
> > list
> > > of
> > > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > > > modified,
> > > > >>> even
> > > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify
> "virtual
> > > > >>> meeting
> > > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> > > > general
> > > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed
> > to
> > > > >>> cover
> > > > >>> > all
> > > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various
> Apache
> > > > >>> > communities).
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging
> (for
> > > > >>> example,
> > > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely
> > rare,
> > > > >>> > normally
> > > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder
> to
> > > > >>> understand
> > > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> > > > >>> because it
> > > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > > > volunteer
> > > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> > > > >>> language
> > > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of
> > > people
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And
> > the
> > > > >>> cost of
> > > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest
> cost
> > to
> > > > our
> > > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually
> > reduce
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an
> > > hour
> > > > of
> > > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to
> > > start
> > > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> > > > implore
> > > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> > project
> > > > --
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> > > > >>> track. And
> > > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> > > > >>> temporary
> > > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > > anyways.
> > > > >>> But
> > > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be
> able
> > > to
> > > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > > messaging
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and
> faster
> > > > than
> > > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for
> how
> > > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > John
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > > >>> > > for
> > > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> > > > >>> caster).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/
> > for
> > > > >>> group
> > > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on
> the
> > > > free
> > > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > > planning/retrospective
> > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > > communications.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months,
> we
> > > > use a
> > > > >>> > loose
> > > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we
> start
> > > > those
> > > > >>> > > sprints
> > > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting
> on
> > > > >>> Saturday
> > > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> > needs,
> > > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two
> weeks
> > > on a
> > > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings
> > > should
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>> > > around
> > > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> > > > Planning
> > > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time
> > audio
> > > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> > necessary
> > > > >>> times,
> > > > >>> > > and
> > > > >>> > > > I
> > > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> > sharing
> > > /
> > > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > > necessary
> > > > >>> > times,
> > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> > > > system
> > > > >>> > beyond
> > > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit
> this
> > > > >>> audience
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > > > DEADLINES
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding
> > > these
> > > > >>> > > proposals
> > > > >>> > > > in
> > > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22.
> > (That
> > > > is
> > > > >>> 8:00
> > > > >>> > > PM
> > > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today,
> Thursday
> > > > April
> > > > >>> 21,
> > > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > > > meeting,
> > > > >>> if
> > > > >>> > we
> > > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> > discussed
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > > decided
> > > > >>> > > > no
> > > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > >>> most
> > > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> > meeting
> > > > day
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>> > > the
> > > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted
> > by
> > > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > > >>> > > GMT
> > > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions
> via
> > > > email
> > > > >>> > > > starting
> > > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed
> > no
> > > > >>> later
> > > > >>> > than
> > > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > >>> > > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Cordialement,
> Emmanuel Lécharny
> www.iktek.com
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@apache.org>.
Hi,
Sorry not to be able to reply responsively...(vacations)
Comments inline...
Le vendredi 22 avril 2016, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
>
> It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
> moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
>
> CANDIDATES
> Voice
> * Skype
> * Discord
Please, no voice communication, no schefuled meetings. This will simply
won't work across timezones. Sunday is generally a sacred familly day: ie
we are all deficated and hard worker developpers, who probably had cut a
deal with spouse/husband : sunday is a ´no computer day' !
>
> Screen sharing
> * Skype
> * join.me
Same pb, but can be useful from tome to time.
>
> Team chat
> * HipChat
> * Discord
> * Skype
> * Slack
Same as voice channel : does not work well across tz. Such real time
communication channel are somehow excluding people from the team in the
long run...
>
>
> MY VOTE
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
Typically, this is 6:30 pm in France. 12h30 in NY, 9:30 in SF, midnight in
New Delhi(not to mention Australia). We tried such meetings on another
project, with people from South Korea, Turkey, France and USA: a failure.
As ´retarded' as it sounds, mailing list simply works: asynchronous,
archived, possible parallel threads: all what you need;-)
Emmanuel
>
>
> VOTES SO FAR
> Sam
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - join.me
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
> Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
>
> Inge
> 1. Voice - Skype
> 2. Screen sharing - Skype
> 3. Team chat - Slack
>
> Temporary regular meetings: ?
> Kickoff meeting: ?
>
>
> VOTING
>
> Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday, April
> 23rd @ 6AM UTC.
> Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
> Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your involvement!
>
> David Ash
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sjokomelk@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The
> details
> > of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the
> kickoff
> > meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
> >
> > Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> > communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> > Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> > available.
> > Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
> > regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
> > favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you can
> > chat it is good.
> >
> > // Inge
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you
> listed
> > > those team chat options?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a
> > > major
> > > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > > >
> > > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> > allows
> > > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of
> the
> > > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think
> > > this
> > > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > > >
> > > > So, let's move forward.
> > > >
> > > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
> > > > proposals?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > > >>
> > > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out
> a
> > > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for
> this
> > > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a
> more
> > > >> positive name.
> > > >>
> > > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set
> > > well
> > > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days.
> > > And
> > > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> > > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I
> > > agree
> > > >> that it's beneficial.
> > > >>
> > > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so
> > > having
> > > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >> David
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> > co-location
> > > of
> > > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using
> tools
> > > >>> like
> > > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community
> to
> > > >>> build
> > > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real
> time
> > > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists).
> One
> > > way
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information
> > for
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> > > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick
> > times
> > > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual
> > UTC
> > > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> > > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> > > you're
> > > >>> planning to operate.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> John
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > John,
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > > >>> communication
> > > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the
> list
> > of
> > > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > > modified,
> > > >>> even
> > > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual
> > > >>> meeting
> > > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> > > general
> > > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed
> to
> > > >>> cover
> > > >>> > all
> > > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> > > >>> > communities).
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
> > > >>> example,
> > > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely
> rare,
> > > >>> > normally
> > > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> > > >>> understand
> > > >>> > > than written text).
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> > > >>> because it
> > > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > > volunteer
> > > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> > > >>> language
> > > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of
> > people
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And
> the
> > > >>> cost of
> > > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost
> to
> > > our
> > > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually
> reduce
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an
> > hour
> > > of
> > > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to
> > start
> > > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> > > implore
> > > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this
> project
> > > --
> > > >>> we
> > > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> > > >>> track. And
> > > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> > > >>> temporary
> > > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> > anyways.
> > > >>> But
> > > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able
> > to
> > > >>> > organize and attend.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> > messaging
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster
> > > than
> > > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > > johndament@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Hey guys
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > John
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > > sam.barrett@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > > >>> > > for
> > > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> > > >>> caster).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/
> for
> > > >>> group
> > > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the
> > > free
> > > >>> > > > platform).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > > planning/retrospective
> > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> > green.neon@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > > communications.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we
> > > use a
> > > >>> > loose
> > > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start
> > > those
> > > >>> > > sprints
> > > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> > > >>> Saturday
> > > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious
> needs,
> > > >>> > > > availability,
> > > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks
> > on a
> > > >>> > > Saturday
> > > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings
> > should
> > > >>> be
> > > >>> > > around
> > > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> > > Planning
> > > >>> > > > meetings.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time
> audio
> > > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other
> necessary
> > > >>> times,
> > > >>> > > and
> > > >>> > > > I
> > > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen
> sharing
> > /
> > > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> > necessary
> > > >>> > times,
> > > >>> > > > and
> > > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> > > system
> > > >>> > beyond
> > > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> > > >>> audience
> > > >>> > to
> > > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > > DEADLINES
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding
> > these
> > > >>> > > proposals
> > > >>> > > > in
> > > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22.
> (That
> > > is
> > > >>> 8:00
> > > >>> > > PM
> > > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday
> > > April
> > > >>> 21,
> > > >>> > > > 2016).
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > > meeting,
> > > >>> if
> > > >>> > we
> > > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be
> discussed
> > > and
> > > >>> > > decided
> > > >>> > > > no
> > > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it
> would
> > > be
> > > >>> most
> > > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a
> meeting
> > > day
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> > > the
> > > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted
> by
> > > >>> 6:00 AM
> > > >>> > > GMT
> > > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via
> > > email
> > > >>> > > > starting
> > > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed
> no
> > > >>> later
> > > >>> > than
> > > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > > >>> > > > >
> > > >>> > > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Awesome! Thanks for your contribution Inge!
It's unfortunate that we didn't hear from everyone, but we have to keep
moving forward aggressively. It's time for voting!
CANDIDATES
Voice
* Skype
* Discord
Screen sharing
* Skype
* join.me
Team chat
* HipChat
* Discord
* Skype
* Slack
MY VOTE
1. Voice - Skype
2. Screen sharing - Skype
3. Team chat - Slack
Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ 4:00 PM UTC
VOTES SO FAR
Sam
1. Voice - Skype
2. Screen sharing - join.me
3. Team chat - Slack
Temporary regular meetings: Sunday
Kickoff meeting: Sunday @ ?
Inge
1. Voice - Skype
2. Screen sharing - Skype
3. Team chat - Slack
Temporary regular meetings: ?
Kickoff meeting: ?
VOTING
Please cast or update your vote for solutions no later than Saturday, April
23rd @ 6AM UTC.
Please cast or update your vote for kickoff day and time no later than
Saturday, April 23rd @ 12AM UTC.
Thanks for your involvement!
David Ash
On Apr 21, 2016 3:45 PM, "Inge Olaisen" <sj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The details
> of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the kickoff
> meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
>
> Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
> communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
> Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option
> available.
> Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
> regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
> favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you can
> chat it is good.
>
> // Inge
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you listed
> > those team chat options?
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a
> > major
> > > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> > >
> > > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that
> allows
> > > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the
> > > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think
> > this
> > > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> > >
> > > So, let's move forward.
> > >
> > > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
> > > proposals?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> > >>
> > >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> > >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a
> > >>> summary after the meeting.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this
> > >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more
> > >> positive name.
> > >>
> > >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set
> > well
> > >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days.
> > And
> > >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> > >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I
> > agree
> > >> that it's beneficial.
> > >>
> > >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> > >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so
> > having
> > >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> David
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid
> co-location
> > of
> > >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools
> > >>> like
> > >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to
> > >>> build
> > >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
> > >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One
> > way
> > >>> to
> > >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information
> for
> > >>> the
> > >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> > >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick
> times
> > >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual
> UTC
> > >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> > >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> > you're
> > >>> planning to operate.
> > >>>
> > >>> John
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > John,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> > >>> communication
> > >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list
> of
> > >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> > >>> >
> > >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> > modified,
> > >>> even
> > >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual
> > >>> meeting
> > >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> > general
> > >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to
> > >>> cover
> > >>> > all
> > >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> > >>> > communities).
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
> > >>> example,
> > >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
> > >>> > normally
> > >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> > >>> understand
> > >>> > > than written text).
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> > >>> because it
> > >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> > volunteer
> > >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> > >>> language
> > >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of
> people
> > >>> that
> > >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the
> > >>> cost of
> > >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to
> > our
> > >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce
> > >>> that
> > >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an
> hour
> > of
> > >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to
> start
> > >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> > implore
> > >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project
> > --
> > >>> we
> > >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> > >>> track. And
> > >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> > >>> temporary
> > >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory
> anyways.
> > >>> But
> > >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able
> to
> > >>> > organize and attend.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous
> messaging
> > >>> and
> > >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster
> > than
> > >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > How does that sound, John?
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> > johndament@apache.org
> > >>> >
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Hey guys
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > John
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> > sam.barrett@gmail.com>
> > >>> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> > >>> https://www.join.me/
> > >>> > > for
> > >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> > >>> caster).
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for
> > >>> group
> > >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the
> > free
> > >>> > > > platform).
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> > planning/retrospective
> > >>> > > > meetings.
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <
> green.neon@gmail.com
> > >
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> > communications.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we
> > use a
> > >>> > loose
> > >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start
> > those
> > >>> > > sprints
> > >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> > >>> Saturday
> > >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > >>> > > > availability,
> > >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks
> on a
> > >>> > > Saturday
> > >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings
> should
> > >>> be
> > >>> > > around
> > >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> > Planning
> > >>> > > > meetings.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> > >>> times,
> > >>> > > and
> > >>> > > > I
> > >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing
> /
> > >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other
> necessary
> > >>> > times,
> > >>> > > > and
> > >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> > system
> > >>> > beyond
> > >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> > >>> audience
> > >>> > to
> > >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> > DEADLINES
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding
> these
> > >>> > > proposals
> > >>> > > > in
> > >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That
> > is
> > >>> 8:00
> > >>> > > PM
> > >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday
> > April
> > >>> 21,
> > >>> > > > 2016).
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> > meeting,
> > >>> if
> > >>> > we
> > >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed
> > and
> > >>> > > decided
> > >>> > > > no
> > >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would
> > be
> > >>> most
> > >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting
> > day
> > >>> for
> > >>> > > the
> > >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by
> > >>> 6:00 AM
> > >>> > > GMT
> > >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via
> > email
> > >>> > > > starting
> > >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no
> > >>> later
> > >>> > than
> > >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > > > David Ash
> > >>> > > > >
> > >>> > > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Inge Olaisen <sj...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Methodology looks fine, 2 week sprints seems reasonable to me. The details
of what a loose scrum entails I guess we can take when we have the kickoff
meeting, because I'm more used to a firm Agile Scrum setup.
Communication option that works best for me, at least for voice
communication would be Skype/Discord since I'm not located in the US.
Although I would favor Skype because of the screen sharing option available.
Chat options I would consider IRC old fashioned and lacking in so many
regards, so HipChat, Discord, Skype and Slack works better for me. I do
favor Slack as the better option, but in all honestly as long as you can
chat it is good.
// Inge
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:07 PM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you listed
> those team chat options?
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> > bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a
> major
> > threat to getting some momentum rolling.
> >
> > That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that allows
> > us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the
> > ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think
> this
> > diversity is what helps us move forward.
> >
> > So, let's move forward.
> >
> > John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
> > proposals?
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
> >>
> >> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> >>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a
> >>> summary after the meeting.
> >>
> >>
> >> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this
> >> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more
> >> positive name.
> >>
> >> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set
> well
> >> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days.
> And
> >> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> >> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I
> agree
> >> that it's beneficial.
> >>
> >> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> >> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so
> having
> >> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location
> of
> >>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools
> >>> like
> >>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to
> >>> build
> >>> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
> >>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One
> way
> >>> to
> >>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for
> >>> the
> >>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> >>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
> >>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
> >>> time is not reasonable for all.
> >>>
> >>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> >>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how
> you're
> >>> planning to operate.
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > John,
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
> >>> communication
> >>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
> >>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> >>> >
> >>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though
> modified,
> >>> even
> >>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> >>> >
> >>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual
> >>> meeting
> >>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a
> general
> >>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to
> >>> cover
> >>> > all
> >>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> >>> > communities).
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
> >>> example,
> >>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
> >>> > normally
> >>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> >>> understand
> >>> > > than written text).
> >>> > >
> >>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
> >>> because it
> >>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the
> volunteer
> >>> > > nature of the various communities.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
> >>> language
> >>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people
> >>> that
> >>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the
> >>> cost of
> >>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to
> our
> >>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce
> >>> that
> >>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour
> of
> >>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
> >>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> >>> >
> >>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also
> implore
> >>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project
> --
> >>> we
> >>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
> >>> track. And
> >>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> >>> >
> >>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
> >>> temporary
> >>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways.
> >>> But
> >>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
> >>> > organize and attend.
> >>> >
> >>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging
> >>> and
> >>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster
> than
> >>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> >>> >
> >>> > How does that sound, John?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Hey guys
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> >>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> >>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >>> > >
> >>> > > John
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <
> sam.barrett@gmail.com>
> >>> > > wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> >>> https://www.join.me/
> >>> > > for
> >>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
> >>> caster).
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for
> >>> group
> >>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the
> free
> >>> > > > platform).
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with
> planning/retrospective
> >>> > > > meetings.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <green.neon@gmail.com
> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > > Hello developers!
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and
> communications.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we
> use a
> >>> > loose
> >>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start
> those
> >>> > > sprints
> >>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> >>> Saturday
> >>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> >>> > > > availability,
> >>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> >>> > > Saturday
> >>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should
> >>> be
> >>> > > around
> >>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint
> Planning
> >>> > > > meetings.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> >>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> >>> times,
> >>> > > and
> >>> > > > I
> >>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> >>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> >>> > times,
> >>> > > > and
> >>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat
> system
> >>> > beyond
> >>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> >>> audience
> >>> > to
> >>> > > > > propose candidates.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION
> DEADLINES
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> >>> > > proposals
> >>> > > > in
> >>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That
> is
> >>> 8:00
> >>> > > PM
> >>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday
> April
> >>> 21,
> >>> > > > 2016).
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff
> meeting,
> >>> if
> >>> > we
> >>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed
> and
> >>> > > decided
> >>> > > > no
> >>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would
> be
> >>> most
> >>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting
> day
> >>> for
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by
> >>> 6:00 AM
> >>> > > GMT
> >>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via
> email
> >>> > > > starting
> >>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no
> >>> later
> >>> > than
> >>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > David Ash
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
Also, John, were you nominating IRC or hipchat over slack when you listed
those team chat options?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:04 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate
> bureaucracy getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a major
> threat to getting some momentum rolling.
>
> That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that allows
> us to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the
> ASF. I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think this
> diversity is what helps us move forward.
>
> So, let's move forward.
>
> John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
> proposals?
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
>>
>> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
>>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a
>>> summary after the meeting.
>>
>>
>> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this
>> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more
>> positive name.
>>
>> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set well
>> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. And
>> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
>> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I agree
>> that it's beneficial.
>>
>> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
>> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so having
>> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of
>>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools
>>> like
>>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to
>>> build
>>> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
>>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way
>>> to
>>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for
>>> the
>>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
>>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
>>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
>>> time is not reasonable for all.
>>>
>>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
>>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're
>>> planning to operate.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > John,
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the
>>> communication
>>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
>>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
>>> >
>>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified,
>>> even
>>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
>>> >
>>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual
>>> meeting
>>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
>>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to
>>> cover
>>> > all
>>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
>>> > communities).
>>> > >
>>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
>>> example,
>>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
>>> > normally
>>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
>>> understand
>>> > > than written text).
>>> > >
>>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important
>>> because it
>>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
>>> > > nature of the various communities.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the
>>> language
>>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people
>>> that
>>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the
>>> cost of
>>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
>>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce
>>> that
>>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
>>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
>>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
>>> >
>>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
>>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project --
>>> we
>>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on
>>> track. And
>>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
>>> >
>>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
>>> temporary
>>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways.
>>> But
>>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
>>> > organize and attend.
>>> >
>>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging
>>> and
>>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
>>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
>>> >
>>> > How does that sound, John?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Hey guys
>>> > >
>>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
>>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
>>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>> > >
>>> > > John
>>> > >
>>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
>>> https://www.join.me/
>>> > > for
>>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the
>>> caster).
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for
>>> group
>>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
>>> > > > platform).
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
>>> > > > meetings.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > Hello developers!
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
>>> > loose
>>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
>>> > > sprints
>>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
>>> Saturday
>>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
>>> > > > availability,
>>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
>>> > > Saturday
>>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should
>>> be
>>> > > around
>>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
>>> > > > meetings.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
>>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
>>> times,
>>> > > and
>>> > > > I
>>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
>>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
>>> > times,
>>> > > > and
>>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
>>> > beyond
>>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
>>> audience
>>> > to
>>> > > > > propose candidates.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
>>> > > proposals
>>> > > > in
>>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is
>>> 8:00
>>> > > PM
>>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April
>>> 21,
>>> > > > 2016).
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting,
>>> if
>>> > we
>>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
>>> > > decided
>>> > > > no
>>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be
>>> most
>>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day
>>> for
>>> > > the
>>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by
>>> 6:00 AM
>>> > > GMT
>>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
>>> > > > starting
>>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no
>>> later
>>> > than
>>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > David Ash
>>> > > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
I think what Sam is trying to say here is he doesn't appreciate bureaucracy
getting in the way of progress. I also see red tape as a major threat to
getting some momentum rolling.
That having been said, I think we've arrived at a compromise that allows us
to move quickly without diverging greatly from the intentions of the ASF.
I appreciate the time and positions of everyone here, and think this
diversity is what helps us move forward.
So, let's move forward.
John - with your developer hat on, do you have any thoughts on these
proposals?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's fair. We can definitely do this:
>
> One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
>> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a
>> summary after the meeting.
>
>
> As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this
> kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more
> positive name.
>
> As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set well
> in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. And
> so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
> personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I agree
> that it's beneficial.
>
> I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the
> requirements set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so having
> someone with your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of
>> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools like
>> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to build
>> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
>> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way
>> to
>> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for the
>> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
>> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
>> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
>> time is not reasonable for all.
>>
>> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
>> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're
>> planning to operate.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > John,
>> >
>> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication
>> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
>> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
>> >
>> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified,
>> even
>> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
>> >
>> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting
>> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
>> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover
>> > all
>> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
>> > communities).
>> > >
>> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for
>> example,
>> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
>> > normally
>> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
>> understand
>> > > than written text).
>> > >
>> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because
>> it
>> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
>> > > nature of the various communities.
>> >
>> >
>> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language
>> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people
>> that
>> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the
>> cost of
>> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
>> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that
>> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
>> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
>> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
>> >
>> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
>> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project --
>> we
>> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track.
>> And
>> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
>> >
>> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the
>> temporary
>> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways.
>> But
>> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
>> > organize and attend.
>> >
>> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging
>> and
>> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
>> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
>> >
>> > How does that sound, John?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hey guys
>> > >
>> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
>> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
>> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
>> https://www.join.me/
>> > > for
>> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
>> > > >
>> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
>> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
>> > > > platform).
>> > > >
>> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
>> > > > meetings.
>> > > >
>> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hello developers!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > METHODOLOGY
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
>> > loose
>> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
>> > > sprints
>> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
>> Saturday
>> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
>> > > > availability,
>> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
>> > > Saturday
>> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
>> > > around
>> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
>> > > > meetings.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
>> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
>> times,
>> > > and
>> > > > I
>> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
>> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
>> > times,
>> > > > and
>> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
>> > beyond
>> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
>> audience
>> > to
>> > > > > propose candidates.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
>> > > proposals
>> > > > in
>> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is
>> 8:00
>> > > PM
>> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April
>> 21,
>> > > > 2016).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting,
>> if
>> > we
>> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
>> > > decided
>> > > > no
>> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be
>> most
>> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day
>> for
>> > > the
>> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00
>> AM
>> > > GMT
>> > > > > Friday, April 22.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
>> > > > starting
>> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later
>> > than
>> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thank you for your time!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > David Ash
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
That's fair. We can definitely do this:
One way to do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity
> information for the meeting is available to all, and then send out a
> summary after the meeting.
As for scheduling in advance, I'm considering 48 hours enough for this
kickoff meeting because it's really an emergency meeting under a more
positive name.
As for the temporary regular meetings, the time and day would be set well
in advance because we'd be deciding it over the next couple of days. And
so far, I've been using UTC (AKA GMT) for my times even though I'm
personally in US Mountain Time. I plan to continue doing so, and I agree
that it's beneficial.
I can appreciate your assistance to help us operate within the requirements
set by the ASF. I don't know the requirements yet, so having someone with
your knowledge (and responsiveness) is great.
Thanks,
David
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
> One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of
> contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools like
> slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to build
> some level of governance around how communication from the real time
> aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way to
> do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for the
> meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
> meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
> focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
> time is not reasonable for all.
>
> I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
> requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're
> planning to operate.
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication
> > portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
> > links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
> >
> > However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified,
> even
> > after reading this section of the linked-to document:
> >
> > Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting
> > > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
> > > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover
> > all
> > > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> > communities).
> > >
> > > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for example,
> > > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
> > normally
> > > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to
> understand
> > > than written text).
> > >
> > > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because
> it
> > > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
> > > nature of the various communities.
> >
> >
> > The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language
> > barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people
> that
> > do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the cost
> of
> > Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
> > members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that
> > cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
> > emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
> > moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
> >
> > However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
> > everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- we
> > need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track.
> And
> > once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
> >
> > I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the temporary
> > regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. But
> > I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
> > organize and attend.
> >
> > Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging and
> > an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
> > email mailing lists in my opinion.
> >
> > How does that sound, John?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey guys
> > >
> > > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and
> https://www.join.me/
> > > for
> > > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> > > >
> > > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > > > platform).
> > > >
> > > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > > > meetings.
> > > >
> > > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello developers!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > > >
> > > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
> > loose
> > > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> > > sprints
> > > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on
> Saturday
> > > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > > > availability,
> > > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> > > Saturday
> > > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> > > around
> > > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > > > meetings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> times,
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> > times,
> > > > and
> > > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
> > beyond
> > > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this
> audience
> > to
> > > > > propose candidates.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> > > proposals
> > > > in
> > > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is
> 8:00
> > > PM
> > > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April
> 21,
> > > > 2016).
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if
> > we
> > > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> > > decided
> > > > no
> > > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be
> most
> > > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day
> for
> > > the
> > > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00
> AM
> > > GMT
> > > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > > >
> > > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > > > starting
> > > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later
> > than
> > > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > > >
> > > > > David Ash
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
One of the reasons that mailing lists are used is to avoid co-location of
contributors being a requirement. This doesn't mean that using tools like
slack, IRC, hipchat aren't allowed. I would expect the community to build
some level of governance around how communication from the real time
aspects move into near-real-time channels (e.g. mailing lists). One way to
do that is to host the meeting, make sure connectivity information for the
meeting is available to all, and then send out a summary after the
meeting. Try to schedule as much in advance as possible and pick times
focused on UTC (e.g. publish your times in UTC), even if the actual UTC
time is not reasonable for all.
I'm here to make sure you guys operate within the bounds of the ASF
requirements. Its up to the community to say they agree with how you're
planning to operate.
John
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:17 PM David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication
> portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
> links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
>
> However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified, even
> after reading this section of the linked-to document:
>
> Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting
> > rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
> > requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover
> all
> > time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache
> communities).
> >
> > Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for example,
> > IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare,
> normally
> > because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to understand
> > than written text).
> >
> > In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because it
> > allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
> > nature of the various communities.
>
>
> The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language
> barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people that
> do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the cost of
> Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
> members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that
> cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
> emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
> moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
>
> However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
> everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- we
> need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track. And
> once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
>
> I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the temporary
> regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. But
> I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
> organize and attend.
>
> Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging and
> an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
> email mailing lists in my opinion.
>
> How does that sound, John?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey guys
> >
> > I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> > communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/
> > for
> > > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> > >
> > > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > > platform).
> > >
> > > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > > meetings.
> > >
> > > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello developers!
> > > >
> > > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > METHODOLOGY
> > > >
> > > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a
> loose
> > > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> > sprints
> > > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> > > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > > availability,
> > > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> > Saturday
> > > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> > around
> > > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > > meetings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> > and
> > > I
> > > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary
> times,
> > > and
> > > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system
> beyond
> > > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience
> to
> > > > propose candidates.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> > proposals
> > > in
> > > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00
> > PM
> > > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21,
> > > 2016).
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if
> we
> > > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> > decided
> > > no
> > > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> > > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for
> > the
> > > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM
> > GMT
> > > > Friday, April 22.
> > > >
> > > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > > starting
> > > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later
> than
> > > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your time!
> > > >
> > > > David Ash
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by David Ash <gr...@gmail.com>.
John,
Thanks for that link! Very useful, for much more than the communication
portion. Any other useful links? We should add these to the list of
links, and include that on our website (hopefully next week).
However, I'd still like to continue with my proposal, though modified, even
after reading this section of the linked-to document:
Communication is done via mailing lists. These identify "virtual meeting
> rooms" where conversations happen asynchronously, which is a general
> requirement for groups that are so geographically distributed to cover all
> time zones (like it's normally the case for the various Apache communities).
>
> Some projects additionally use more synchronous messaging (for example,
> IRC or instant messaging). Voice communication is extremely rare, normally
> because of costs and the language barrier (speech is harder to understand
> than written text).
>
> In general, asynchronous communication is much more important because it
> allows archives to be created and it's more tolerant on the volunteer
> nature of the various communities.
The typical reason to avoid voice communication is cost and the language
barrier. At this time, to my knowledge, the group consists of people that
do understand and speak English, even if not all natively. And the cost of
Skype for our small team is nothing. Further, the greatest cost to our
members is their time, and voice communication will actually reduce that
cost -- a one hour voice call can communicate much more than an hour of
emails. And right now, speed is everything. We need things to start
moving quickly or this project will unquestionably die.
However, I do recognize that this isn't typical. But I'd also implore
everyone to understand that typical isn't going to fix this project -- we
need immediate emergency actions for awhile until we're back on track. And
once we're back on track, we can go back to status quo.
I'd also recognize that not everyone will be able to attend the temporary
regular meeting, and it's not like we can make it mandatory anyways. But
I'd like for us to allow people that want to move quickly be able to
organize and attend.
Finally, regarding team chat: Team chat is both synchronous messaging and
an archived communication system, and it's much better and faster than
email mailing lists in my opinion.
How does that sound, John?
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:00 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hey guys
>
> I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
> communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> John
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/
> for
> > screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
> >
> > I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> > audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> > platform).
> >
> > I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> > meetings.
> >
> > Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello developers!
> > >
> > > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > METHODOLOGY
> > >
> > > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a loose
> > > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those
> sprints
> > > Saturday, April 23rd.
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> > >
> > > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> > > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> > availability,
> > > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> > >
> > > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a
> Saturday
> > > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be
> around
> > > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> > meetings.
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> > >
> > > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> and
> > I
> > > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> > >
> > > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> > and
> > > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> > >
> > > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system beyond
> > > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience to
> > > propose candidates.
> > >
> > >
> > > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> > >
> > > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these
> proposals
> > in
> > > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00
> PM
> > > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21,
> > 2016).
> > >
> > > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if we
> > > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and
> decided
> > no
> > > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> > > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for
> the
> > > kickoff and regular meetings.
> > >
> > > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM
> GMT
> > > Friday, April 22.
> > >
> > > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> > starting
> > > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later than
> > > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for your time!
> > >
> > > David Ash
> > >
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
Hey guys
I do want to point out that there are some expectations for how
communication happens within the ASF. Please review -
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
John
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/ for
> screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
>
> I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
> audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
> platform).
>
> I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective
> meetings.
>
> Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello developers!
> >
> > I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
> >
> >
> >
> > METHODOLOGY
> >
> > I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a loose
> > scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those sprints
> > Saturday, April 23rd.
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
> >
> > I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> > (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs,
> availability,
> > and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
> >
> > I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a Saturday
> > and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be around
> > an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning
> meetings.
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
> >
> > I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> > communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times, and
> I
> > propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
> >
> > I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> > teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary times,
> and
> > I propose Skype as a candidate.
> >
> > I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system beyond
> > email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience to
> > propose candidates.
> >
> >
> > PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
> >
> > I further propose that all general discussions regarding these proposals
> in
> > general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00 PM
> > ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21,
> 2016).
> >
> > I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if we
> > agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and decided
> no
> > later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> > useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for the
> > kickoff and regular meetings.
> >
> > I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM GMT
> > Friday, April 22.
> >
> > I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email
> starting
> > at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later than
> > 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
> >
> >
> > Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your time!
> >
> > David Ash
> >
>
Re: RFC - Proposals regarding Methodology and Communications
Posted by Sam Barrett <sa...@gmail.com>.
I nominate https://slack.com/ for team chat, and https://www.join.me/ for
screen sharing (supports 10 concurrent users, including the caster).
I second the proposal of utilizing https://www.skype.com/ for group
audio/video conferencing (supports 25 concurrent users on the free
platform).
I second the two-week sprint bookended with planning/retrospective meetings.
Ideally, meetings occur on Sundays (in the US).
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:57 AM, David Ash <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello developers!
>
> I have some proposals related to methodology and communications.
>
>
>
> METHODOLOGY
>
> I propose that over the course of the next three months, we use a loose
> scrum methodology with two-week sprints, and that we start those sprints
> Saturday, April 23rd.
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS - MEETINGS
>
> I further propose that we have a special kickoff meeting on Saturday
> (Apr23) and/or Sunday (Apr24), based on the religious needs, availability,
> and preference of attendees. My preference is Sunday.
>
> I further propose we have regular meetings every two weeks on a Saturday
> and/or Sunday at the end of each sprint. These meetings should be around
> an hour, and double as both a Retrospective and a Sprint Planning meetings.
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS - SOLUTIONS
>
> I further propose we designate a solution for real-time audio
> communications to be used for meetings and at other necessary times, and I
> propose both Skype and telephones as a candidate.
>
> I further propose we designate a solution for screen sharing /
> teleconferencing to be used for meetings and at other necessary times, and
> I propose Skype as a candidate.
>
> I further propose we use some kind of real-time team chat system beyond
> email. I make no proposal for candidates, but solicit this audience to
> propose candidates.
>
>
> PROPOSALS, SOLUTION NOMINATIONS, AND RELATED DISCUSSION DEADLINES
>
> I further propose that all general discussions regarding these proposals in
> general be completed by 12:00 AM GMT, Friday April 22. (That is 8:00 PM
> ET, 7:00 PM CT, 6:00 PM MT, and 5:00 PM PT today, Thursday April 21, 2016).
>
> I further propose that the date and time of the kickoff meeting, if we
> agree a kickoff meeting should in fact be held, be discussed and decided no
> later than 12:00 AM GMT, Saturday April 22. I think it would be most
> useful for developers to state their preference of a meeting day for the
> kickoff and regular meetings.
>
> I further propose that all candidates should be submitted by 6:00 AM GMT
> Friday, April 22.
>
> I further propose that we hold an election of solutions via email starting
> at 6:00 AM GMT Friday April 22nd, that shall be completed no later than
> 6:00 AM GMT Saturday, April 22.
>
>
> Please voice any thoughts, concerns, and comments.
>
>
> Thank you for your time!
>
> David Ash
>