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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Gurkan Erdogdu <gu...@yahoo.com> on 2009/01/01 10:45:47 UTC
January Incubator Report
Hi;
I do not see any entry related with the January 2009 report for the incubator projects in the Wiki. What is the last date to send January report?
Happy new year to all Apache folks :)
Thanks;
Gurkan Erdogdu
Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Personally, I don't subscribe to changes to the Incubator wiki. I have
no bandwidth to track 19 podlings' updates to the page. So if you
update the wiki without a corresponding discussion, please notify the
dev alias.
And I find it extremely useful to keep the project history in the
project svn.
But whatever you folks decide. I'm just one mentor.
Craig
On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Les Hazlewood wrote:
> Beautimous. That's my preference :)
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <elecharny@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>> Les Hazlewood wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <elecharny@gmail.com
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any
>>>>> guidance!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail,
>>>> or in
>>>> SVN),
>>>> and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki
>>>> (not
>>>> the
>>>> link).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, cool - thanks for the clarification. I'd prefer only one
>>> 'editing
>>> mechanism' in place, so I'll stick with email for formulating the
>>> report and then pasting it into the wiki when it is agreed upon. My
>>> personal opinion is that I don't like the possibility of out-of-date
>>> changes that can occur when using both SVN and the wiki.
>>>
>>
>> btw, you can also use the wiki alone, as it can be modified until
>> done. One
>> single 'editing mechanism' :) And you have an history !
>>
>> --
>> --
>> cordialement, regards,
>> Emmanuel Lécharny
>> www.iktek.com
>> directory.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
Beautimous. That's my preference :)
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Les Hazlewood wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail, or in
>>> SVN),
>>> and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki (not
>>> the
>>> link).
>>>
>>
>> Ok, cool - thanks for the clarification. I'd prefer only one 'editing
>> mechanism' in place, so I'll stick with email for formulating the
>> report and then pasting it into the wiki when it is agreed upon. My
>> personal opinion is that I don't like the possibility of out-of-date
>> changes that can occur when using both SVN and the wiki.
>>
>
> btw, you can also use the wiki alone, as it can be modified until done. One
> single 'editing mechanism' :) And you have an history !
>
> --
> --
> cordialement, regards,
> Emmanuel Lécharny
> www.iktek.com
> directory.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Les Hazlewood wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
>>>
>>>
>> Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail, or in SVN),
>> and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki (not the
>> link).
>>
>
> Ok, cool - thanks for the clarification. I'd prefer only one 'editing
> mechanism' in place, so I'll stick with email for formulating the
> report and then pasting it into the wiki when it is agreed upon. My
> personal opinion is that I don't like the possibility of out-of-date
> changes that can occur when using both SVN and the wiki.
>
btw, you can also use the wiki alone, as it can be modified until done.
One single 'editing mechanism' :) And you have an history !
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
Put it in svn 2 weeks before your report is due, send message to your
private list (or dev if that is your process) telling your PPMC
members to look at the report, augment it and ensure it reflects your
status. Then a few days before the due date send a reminder that the
report is now close to become final. When the report is due, put it in
the wiki, and send a message to general@ (cc your PPMC). Report any
new news when you're up for the next report.
The world will not end when you miss one or two items in your report,
but will when you don't submit your report in time.
Martijn
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
>>>
>>
>> Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail, or in SVN),
>> and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki (not the
>> link).
>
> Ok, cool - thanks for the clarification. I'd prefer only one 'editing
> mechanism' in place, so I'll stick with email for formulating the
> report and then pasting it into the wiki when it is agreed upon. My
> personal opinion is that I don't like the possibility of out-of-date
> changes that can occur when using both SVN and the wiki.
>
>> At least, we delivered a report in time ;)
>
> True! :)
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Les
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
>>
>
> Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail, or in SVN),
> and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki (not the
> link).
Ok, cool - thanks for the clarification. I'd prefer only one 'editing
mechanism' in place, so I'll stick with email for formulating the
report and then pasting it into the wiki when it is agreed upon. My
personal opinion is that I don't like the possibility of out-of-date
changes that can occur when using both SVN and the wiki.
> At least, we delivered a report in time ;)
True! :)
Thanks again,
Les
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Les Hazlewood wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
>
>> JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking down
>> e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow the
>> practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
>>
>
> I'm happy to put it in the wiki and I will do so as soon as I can.
>
Already done :)
> I did the link because we were modifying the file over the last two
> days. It didn't make sense to me to change the wiki every time we
> changed the file (all of our reports are in SVN, easily traceable and
> recorded). Instead, linking to HEAD ensured that the wiki always
> reflected the most up to date and current revision. I thought I was
> actually acting in the 'wiki spirit' by ensuring that the data never
> had the possibility of getting out of sync, i.e. link instead of
> replicate.
>
Np. You did what you thought was the best.
> Now if it is Incubator policy that we must use the Wiki for board
> reports, then we'll stop using SVN. My concern is that I want to
> avoid the possibility of multiple editing places and the potential
> confusion that might arise as a result.
>
We can still use SVN, but when the report is validated, we simply push
the content into the wiki, as I said in my first mail.
> What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
>
Just as I said : write down the report (either as a simple mail, or in
SVN), and when validated by the team, then push the content to the wiki
(not the link).
At least, we delivered a report in time ;)
--
--
cordialement, regards,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
directory.apache.org
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RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Les Hazlewood wrote:
> I'm happy to put it in the wiki and I will do so as soon as I can.
Thanks. I saw that you guys had done so. :-)
> I did the link because we were modifying the file over the last two
> days.
> I thought I was actually acting in the 'wiki spirit' by ensuring
> that the data never had the possibility of getting out of sync,
> i.e. link instead of replicate.
The intent wasn't clear, and I wanted to make sure that when you did submit it that it made it into the Wiki. I've certainly gone and fetched from e-mail and SVN, but not having to do that is easier for me to assemble, and for the PMC to review. :-)
On that last point, the reports are due now so that we can review them. For example, I have already remarked on several that they are lacking the three (3) required elements asked for by the ASF Board. They have time to correct that this week.
--- Noel
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Les Hazlewood <lh...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking down
> e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow the
> practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
I'm happy to put it in the wiki and I will do so as soon as I can.
I did the link because we were modifying the file over the last two
days. It didn't make sense to me to change the wiki every time we
changed the file (all of our reports are in SVN, easily traceable and
recorded). Instead, linking to HEAD ensured that the wiki always
reflected the most up to date and current revision. I thought I was
actually acting in the 'wiki spirit' by ensuring that the data never
had the possibility of getting out of sync, i.e. link instead of
replicate.
Now if it is Incubator policy that we must use the Wiki for board
reports, then we'll stop using SVN. My concern is that I want to
avoid the possibility of multiple editing places and the potential
confusion that might arise as a result.
What is policy? I'm just trying to learn - thanks for any guidance!
Cheers,
Les
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Samul Kevin <lo...@gmail.com>.
sorry, cramming for the exams. Report will be added in 2 days
2009/1/13 Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> And here is the link to Incubator wiki, where the report should be added
> to.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/January2009
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Please let' s try to pay more attention to the Incubator Board
> > Reports, and also check the discussion going on in general@ [1]
> > particularly to the following comment [2].
> >
> > [1]
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20414.html
> > [2]
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20417.html
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
> > Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM
> > Subject: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> > Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki,
> Stonehenge,
> > Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable to
> have
> > so many projects disregarding the need to report.
> >
> > At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the report a
> > few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the
> retirement
> > of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going to
> have
> > to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
> >
> > JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking
> down
> > e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow
> the
> > practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende<http://people.apache.org/%7Elresende>
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende <http://people.apache.org/%7Elresende>
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
--
Bowen Ma a.k.a Samul Kevin @ Bluesky Dev Team XJTU
Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Samul Kevin <lo...@gmail.com>.
squeeze my mind to finish that pmc report-_-!
2009/1/13 Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> And here is the link to Incubator wiki, where the report should be added
> to.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/January2009
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Please let' s try to pay more attention to the Incubator Board
> > Reports, and also check the discussion going on in general@ [1]
> > particularly to the following comment [2].
> >
> > [1]
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20414.html
> > [2]
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20417.html
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
> > Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM
> > Subject: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> > Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki,
> Stonehenge,
> > Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable to
> have
> > so many projects disregarding the need to report.
> >
> > At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the report a
> > few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the
> retirement
> > of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going to
> have
> > to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
> >
> > JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking
> down
> > e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow
> the
> > practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende<http://people.apache.org/%7Elresende>
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende <http://people.apache.org/%7Elresende>
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
--
Bowen Ma a.k.a Samul Kevin @ Bluesky Dev Team XJTU
Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
And here is the link to Incubator wiki, where the report should be added to.
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/January2009
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please let' s try to pay more attention to the Incubator Board
> Reports, and also check the discussion going on in general@ [1]
> particularly to the following comment [2].
>
> [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20414.html
> [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20417.html
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
> Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM
> Subject: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>
>
> Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki, Stonehenge,
> Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable to have
> so many projects disregarding the need to report.
>
> At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the report a
> few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the retirement
> of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going to have
> to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
>
> JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking down
> e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow the
> practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
--
Luciano Resende
Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
Fwd: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
Please let' s try to pay more attention to the Incubator Board
Reports, and also check the discussion going on in general@ [1]
particularly to the following comment [2].
[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20414.html
[2] http://www.mail-archive.com/general@incubator.apache.org/msg20417.html
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM
Subject: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki, Stonehenge,
Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable to have
so many projects disregarding the need to report.
At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the report a
few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the retirement
of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going to have
to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking down
e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow the
practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
--- Noel
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Luciano Resende
Apache Tuscany, Apache PhotArk
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> JSPWiki has been added.
Thank you. :-)
> there were some personal circumstances which made me
> forget to copy it to the wiki earlier today.
No worries. Just trying to make sure that it all gets done. :-)
--- Noel
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Janne Jalkanen <Ja...@ecyrd.com>.
>
> Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki,
> Stonehenge,
> Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable
> to have
> so many projects disregarding the need to report.
JSPWiki has been added.
Sorry guys, the report has been ready for a few days in the repo
already, but there were some personal circumstances which made me
forget to copy it to the wiki earlier today.
/Janne
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Re: ** MISSING ** February Incubator Reports
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:01 AM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> reports: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/February2009
>>
>> Nothing for Cassandra, Droids, Lokahi, Pivot, VCL, or WSRP4J. XAP and
>> Stonehenge really should have had more to say.
>
> I am concerned about Cassandra. They are new to the Incubator,
> but we have not received any report. We should extend their
> stay on the "Monthly" schedule (was "January - March").
Pivot will also volunteer to extend its reporting duty.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: ** MISSING ** February Incubator Reports
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> reports: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/February2009
>
> Nothing for Cassandra, Droids, Lokahi, Pivot, VCL, or WSRP4J. XAP and
> Stonehenge really should have had more to say.
I am concerned about Cassandra. They are new to the Incubator,
but we have not received any report. We should extend their
stay on the "Monthly" schedule (was "January - March").
-David
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RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig.Russell wrote:
> For several months, the practice has been to have podling reports
> posted to the wiki by the Wednesday prior to the board meeting, giving
> 5 days for the IPMC to review the reports
Just to be clear, the Boad report is due on Monday, so those five days would
be some part of Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and the weekend. I then assemble
the report either late on Sunday or on Monday.
> January 2009 the report says that podlings are expected to have the
> wiki updated on Monday.
> Who decided that the reports are due two days prior to past practice?
It was discussed, almost in passing, in e-mail when the wiki was updated.
Both Monday and Wednesday have been tossed around before. I don't have a
particular horse in the race.
> Why are we being hectored on Monday when the reports are not even due?
I'm sincerely sorry if it came across too harshly. I'm ust trying to make
sure that the reports get done when we asked for them. We have not been
getting as much review and correction as we could/should because so many are
last minute.
--- Noel
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RE: ** MISSING ** February Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig.Russell wrote:
> Note that last month, I was not complaining about the messages, just
> the timing. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
I knew it had to do with the timing, and just that, Craig. No worries.
My point is that people are not getting the reports done on time. Sure
*some* do, such as yours, but look at this month's. Or most months' if we
don't starting calling for them, and sometimes even when we do.
> I would have made a different experiment. Starting on February 12, an
> interesting experiment would be to send hectoring messages to the
> errant Mentors.
Starting on the 12th would not have left enough time for anyone to review
the reports. The idea of having them *done* by Wed, which would have been
the 11th, was to give the PMC time to review them and have revisions made.
--- Noel
Re: ** MISSING ** February Incubator Reports
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Noel,
On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:34 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Why are we being hectored on Monday when the reports are not even
>> due?
>
> So as an experiment, Craig, here we are with the February report
> due. And
> without prodding, as I did in January, check out the state of the
> podling
> reports: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/February2009
I would have made a different experiment. Starting on February 12, an
interesting experiment would be to send hectoring messages to the
errant Mentors.
Note that last month, I was not complaining about the messages, just
the timing. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
Hector away!
Craig
>
>
> Nothing for Cassandra, Droids, Lokahi, Pivot, VCL, or WSRP4J. XAP and
> Stonehenge really should have had more to say.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
** MISSING ** February Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Why are we being hectored on Monday when the reports are not even due?
So as an experiment, Craig, here we are with the February report due. And
without prodding, as I did in January, check out the state of the podling
reports: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/February2009
Nothing for Cassandra, Droids, Lokahi, Pivot, VCL, or WSRP4J. XAP and
Stonehenge really should have had more to say.
--- Noel
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Jan 12, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki,
> Stonehenge,
> Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable
> to have
> so many projects disregarding the need to report.
For several months, the practice has been to have podling reports
posted to the wiki by the Wednesday prior to the board meeting, giving
5 days for the IPMC to review the reports and clarify any issues prior
to the IPMC chair posting the report to the board, and then giving the
board 2 days to review and clarify issues.
January 2009 the report says that podlings are expected to have the
wiki updated on Monday. Two issues:
Who decided that the reports are due two days prior to past practice?
Why are we being hectored on Monday when the reports are not even due?
Craig
>
>
> At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the
> report a
> few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the
> retirement
> of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going
> to have
> to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
>
> JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or
> tracking down
> e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please
> follow the
> practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
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RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the
> > report a few times now. What is their status?
> I think you have Olio confused with some other project.
> Olio has filed a report every time.
I had done a quick check, and noticed the e-mail thread in November about
Olio being missing. At a second glance, that was from the week before that
it would have been *really* missing. HOWEVER, the same as right now, they
are due the week before the Board meets so that we have time to review and
finalize the Incubator Report. We get far too many reports posted the
Monday before the meeting, leaving little time to review them before I have
to send into the Board. I am trying to help correct that issue.
--- Noel
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Re: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Jan 12, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki,
> Stonehenge,
> Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable
> to have
> so many projects disregarding the need to report.
>
> At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the
> report a
> few times now. What is their status?
I think you have Olio confused with some other project.
Olio has filed a report every time.
Craig
> Is it time to look at the retirement
> of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going
> to have
> to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
>
> JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or
> tracking down
> e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please
> follow the
> practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
>
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
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408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > >
> > > I had asked Dave if he would work on [a Marvin-like script], but I don't
> know that anything
> > > got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
> >
> > Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
> > I can do that - when i find the time.
>
> Thanks. To be clear, you're not the Dave to whom I referred. And I
> appreciate your offer. :-)
:-) ... Well it spurred me to get on to it.
Please see the thread:
Re: remember when each project report is due
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/21048/focus=21053
-David
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 2/17/09, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:58 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
>>
>> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
>> training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
>> training them to leave it all up to someone else.
>>
> I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
> months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
> time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
>
> But I agree that one or more of the podling community needs to want to
> take on the responsibilities of chairing the PMC ultimately, and
> should not depend on the mentors. One of the criteria for graduation
> should be the readiness of the PPMC to become a PMC with all the
> reporting that that involves.
I think that it's both important and useful that the content is
created by the community. But asking Mentors to be responsible for
seeing that a report was submitted probably makes sense. With my IPMC
hat on, I would like to know when a mentor has submitted a report on
the podling.
For example, I would have liked to give the XAP community up to the
deadline to submit a report, and if they failed to do so write up a
report of my own as a mentor.
Robert
>
> Craig
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
> months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
> time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
But does that mean advising & assisting, or doing the work?
--- Noel
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:58 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
> training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
> training them to leave it all up to someone else.
>
I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
But I agree that one or more of the podling community needs to want to
take on the responsibilities of chairing the PMC ultimately, and
should not depend on the mentors. One of the criteria for graduation
should be the readiness of the PPMC to become a PMC with all the
reporting that that involves.
Craig
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I had asked Dave if he would work on [a Marvin-like script], but I don't
know that anything
> > got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
> Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
> I can do that - when i find the time.
Thanks. To be clear, you're not the Dave to whom I referred. And I
appreciate your offer. :-)
> I actually think that reporting is up to each project, not the mentors.
> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not training the podlings in
the ASF way.
I agree that the community is responsible, and have said so. If the
Commuity doesn't step up, I don't know that I would want the Mentor to write
the report for them; certainly not a glowing one. The Commuity needs to
learn to follow ASF procedure, and the Board requires quarterly reports.
But projects come to us in part to build and maintain a vibrant community,
not just to participate in our brand and infrastructure, and active Mentors
can help with that, and advise the PMC when there are issues. If a Mentor
makes a note that the Community hasn't file a report, then at least we know
that someone is paying attention and participating.
At least that's how I see it.
> Why do people need reminding? The procedure and when each month report is
due, is crystal clear
Why do we have Marvin? People forget, get distracted, have other things to
do.
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC
>
> I had asked Dave if he would work on that, but I don't know that anything
> got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
I can do that - when i find the time.
I actually think that reporting is up to each project,
not the mentors.
Why do people need reminding? The procedure and
when each month report is due, is crystal clear at
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ReportingSchedule
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html
If PPMCs are not interested in their own projects,
then the Incubator has massive problems looming.
If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
training them to leave it all up to someone else.
For each podling, a potential chair needs to
emerge from their number. If no PPMC member
is interested in the PMC-level issues, then
we are failing.
-David
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC
I had asked Dave if he would work on that, but I don't know that anything
got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC's to get notified
of a pending report, in my opinion:
- the first missing report should be dealt with by the Mentors on the
podling-dev list (to engage the community), and the podling has to
report the next month.
- the second consecutive missing report should invoke response from
the Incubator PMC (perhaps the Chair), to the podling dev-list, with a
stern warning that 3 strikes is out. A PMC member should try to work
with the community to get a report out, and see what is happening with
the Mentors.
- the third consecutive missing report should invoke termination of
the podling. If the podling community can't bother to report 3 times
in a row, the community is MIA and we can use the cycles in a better
way.
Now what should happen when a podling is on and off with reporting to
a schedule? I don't know. Probably a sign that the Mentors are
overworked and that additional guidance capacity is necessary.
Martijn
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Craig Russell wrote:
>
>> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
> non-report?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> A practical problem [is] that reports are submitted right up to the
deadline
Yes, that's something I discussed last month, and again today with Craig.
> Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
> whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start.
Why a confidential report? By saying that a report should be confidential,
you appear to be implying something.
> To be practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
> month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
> of the podling.
Well, that's what I did last month, and we had everything on time. This
time, we did not have reports from multiple projects.
--- Noel
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
> > right up to the deadline
> I'm not sure I understand your point. The deadline is the Wednesday a
> week ahead of the board meeting.
I believe that Robert was pointing out that the reality (aka, the
practical problem) is that people are submitting right up to the (board)
deadline, and not getting them in when we've asked for them.
> I think that mentors have the responsibility to create a report on
> behalf of the podlings to start. Yes, it's all on them. After a few
> reports, the mentor gets the community to step up and create the
> reports. The mentor then just needs to monitor things and step in if
> things don't get done.
This depends on what you mean by responsible. Unless the Mentor is going
to be the PMC Chair, the Community had better start getting it done. We
may consider the Mentor to be responsible to the PMC, but I think that it
would be fair for the Mentor to be responsible for saying *something*,
even if just to say that the Community is not meeting its responsibility
of getting a proper report done. And in that case, we'd consider it as if
they had missed the report, and start to consider appropriate and
corrective action.
> Perhaps the missing link is a reminder
Volunteers for the automation task?
--- Noel
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Feb 16, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On 1/19/09, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Craig Russell wrote:
>>
>>>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure
>>>> "their"
>>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
> right up to the deadline
I'm not sure I understand your point. The deadline is the Wednesday a
week ahead of the board meeting.
>
>
>> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get
>> overwhelmed,
>> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
>> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can
>> argue
>> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver
>> each
>> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
>> non-report?
>
> Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
> whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start.
And what is the motivation for the mentors who missed the incubator
report to make a special private report?
> To be
> practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
> month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
> of the podling.
I think I'm on a different page here.
I think that mentors have the responsibility to create a report on
behalf of the podlings to start. Yes, it's all on them. After a few
reports, the mentor gets the community to step up and create the
reports. The mentor then just needs to monitor things and step in if
things don't get done.
It takes less than an hour for a mentor to create a report. Perhaps
the missing link is a reminder to the mentors (directly, on their own
personal email address) to prepare and submit the report or get the
podlings to do so.
Craig
>
>
> Robert
>
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 1/19/09, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Craig Russell wrote:
>
>> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
right up to the deadline
> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
> non-report?
Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start. To be
practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
of the podling.
Robert
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
non-report?
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Jan 13, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman
> <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as
>>>> to the
>>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report.
>>>> Perhaps not
>>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
>
>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
Either Bertrand is channeling me, or I'm channeling Bertrand. ;-)
Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
podlings submit their reports on time.
Craig
>
>
> -Bertrand
>
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408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Bill Stoddard <wg...@gmail.com>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>
>>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
>>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
>>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
>>>>
>
>
>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>
>
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
>
Bill (Bluesky podling mentor) sheepishly agrees.
Bill
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
podlings submit their reports on time.
-Bertrand
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process.
>
> Termination after three subsequent missing reports?
To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping. They must step in and
slap the podling around when the report is missed first time. Failure
to do so, is a HUGE problem. If a Mentor does slap the podling around,
and still no action, then I think the Mentor should bring this fact to
the PMC and ask for advice, which may or may not be termination. The
Board report for the podling should at that stage be written by the
PMC/Mentor highlighting the situation and that the PMC is considering
the termination or other actions.
IMHO, all of this is already in place albeit not formulated on site...
Cheers
Niclas
--
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process.
Termination after three subsequent missing reports?
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> What about banning any releases until the report has been submitted? And if
> necessary, closing off commit karma to make the point stick?
To me, that sounds better than confidential reports. It's public,
transparent, affects the whole project equally (i.e. does not isolate
blame), and makes it a community effort to fix and correct.
Yoav
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
What about banning any releases until the report has been submitted? And if
necessary, closing off commit karma to make the point stick?
If the project is hibernating, those would effect it, but as Jukka
suggested, we would simply go through the process of suspending the project.
If the project is active but simply not getting the reports in, that ought
to hit them where it counts, and get their attention.
--- Noel
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What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
a one-off, but on a becoming regular process.
Rather than put my two cents in on this to start, I'll open the topic, and
ask for contributions of ideas from others.
--- Noel
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RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Lucene.NET posted now, too. Thank you.
--- Noel
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RE: ** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sanselan is there now. Thank you.
--- Noel
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** MISSING ** January Incubator Reports
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Where are the reports for BlueSky, Cassandra, Imperius, JSPWiki, Stonehenge,
Lucene.net, Sanselan, Tashi, Thrift, and VCL? This is unacceptable to have
so many projects disregarding the need to report.
At the least, BlueSky, Lucene.net, Olio, and RCF have missed the report a
few times now. What is their status? Is it time to look at the retirement
of these projects? Reports are *not* optional, and the PMC is going to have
to consider what actions are to be taken when they are missed.
JSecurity: I really don't need to go follow URLs into SVN (or tracking down
e-mails as with some others) when assembling the report. Please follow the
practice of putting your report in the Wiki.
--- Noel
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Re: January Incubator Report
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Gurkan Erdogdu wrote:
>
> I have added the 2009 Report Schedule into the Front Page, and also January 2009 Report with due date 12th.
Thanks. However it also needed the templates for all
the projects that are scheduled to report this month.
Done now.
-David
> Noel wrote:
> > Gurkan Erdogdu wrote:
> > I do not see any entry related with the January 2009 report for the
> > incubator projects in the Wiki.
> > What is the last date to send January report?
>
> I'll have to check the board calendat, but if it runs true to form, we need
> everything the week of the 12th so that we can get the report into them on
> the 19th.
>
> Anyone volunteering to populate the Wiki for 2009?
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Re: January Incubator Report
Posted by Gurkan Erdogdu <gu...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Noel;
I have added the 2009 Report Schedule into the Front Page, and also January 2009 Report with due date 12th.
Gurkan Erdogdu
________________________________
From: Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2009 8:11:08 PM
Subject: RE: January Incubator Report
> I do not see any entry related with the January 2009 report for the
incubator projects in the Wiki.
> What is the last date to send January report?
I'll have to check the board calendat, but if it runs true to form, we need
everything the week of the 12th so that we can get the report into them on
the 19th.
Anyone volunteering to populate the Wiki for 2009?
--- Noel
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RE: January Incubator Report
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I do not see any entry related with the January 2009 report for the
incubator projects in the Wiki.
> What is the last date to send January report?
I'll have to check the board calendat, but if it runs true to form, we need
everything the week of the 12th so that we can get the report into them on
the 19th.
Anyone volunteering to populate the Wiki for 2009?
--- Noel
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