T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Renat Zubairov <re...@gmail.com>]

Hello,

We are developing application based on T4.1. We have one T4 in
production. And quite disappointed by the situation happening with
Tapestry right now.

Let me explain it from _my_ personal point of view.
1. Investments in T4 are lost. Application will not be portable to T5.
2. Project lead is only participating in the discussion of the T5
questions on the mail list.
3. T4.1 is in deep development and release plan is _very_ unclear.
Development will the development of T4.1 ever come to some meaningful
conclusion? Feature stability? Snapshot releases can be broken any
time. I haven't seen any non-snapshot release of 4.1.X so far.
Latest update of the new OGNL version? Was was the reason for that?
Less stability? One snapshot depends on another snapshot?

I have a serious fear that 4.1 will never see the release. In half a
year (?) T5 is planned to be released?
How important for project lead and project team stability of the
framework? I can understand the pursuit of new fancy features and
improvements, but never the less how do you see the project plan?
How do you see migration path from 4 to 5, from 4.1 to 5?
How do you see AJAX and JSON features to be implemented in 5.0?

Wouldn't it be better to made some conclusion in 4.1 and put all efforts in 5.0?

-- 
Best regards,
Renat Zubairov

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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Stephan Schwab <sn...@caimito.net>]

Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:24:52 -0300, Renat Zubairov  
> <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Let me explain it from _my_ personal point of view.
>> 1. Investments in T4 are lost. Application will not be portable to T5.
> 
> i can't figure out why investment in a framework will be lost when a new,  
> incompatible version of it is released. tapestry 4.1 will not disappear  
> when t5 is released. t4.x has many useful first- and third-party  
> components (and developers experience) already available, [...]

It's just the perception of most people that there should be continuous
evolution instead of a revolution. That has been discussed here before. T5
is called Tapestry, but the term "Tapestry" is more a brand name, than the
name of the product in this case.

Personally I don't care about the issue. T5 is something completely new and
using it or not is the same question as switching or starting to use another
framework. So it's a nice opportunity for new projects, but a switch should
not be considered - from my point of view as a user - for stuff that's in
production - at least at the present stage. And ... After all it's open
source and one should be prepared to participate in the maintenance of such
frameworks - there is no vendor guaranteeing anything. It's a voluntary and
community effort. If someone is talking about "investment" then that would
mean time - not money - and everybody is free to help with the maintenance
while others might move on to something new.

Stephan

--
http://www.stephan-schwab.com

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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@terra.com.br>]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:24:52 -0300, Renat Zubairov  
<re...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Let me explain it from _my_ personal point of view.
> 1. Investments in T4 are lost. Application will not be portable to T5.

i can't figure out why investment in a framework will be lost when a new,  
incompatible version of it is released. tapestry 4.1 will not disappear  
when t5 is released. t4.x has many useful first- and third-party  
components (and developers experience) already available, while t5 will  
take some time to have a similar number, making it not so interesting for  
serious (i.e, not small, internal ones used to learn it) projects, even  
having so many wonderful features. :) is there any roadmap (with proposed  
dates) for t5?

thiago hp

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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com>]

We all hope so!

On 3/31/07, Jonathan Barker <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I can see your points, but I disagree.
>
> With regard to the dramatic changes between 4.x and 5, I think it is worth
> it to go through short-term pain for long-term gain.  I have seriously
> questioned my choice of Tapestry because of these changes but keep coming
> up
> with, "Wow, this is how it should be done!"
>
> If I look at the applications I've done in 4.0.x, I have good separation
> between the layers. I have investments in the CSS, and the HTML that will
> largely be retained, as well as all of the services, security and
> persistence infrastructure.
>
> I will probably go from 4.0.2 to 5.0.x because I currently don't need the
> AJAX functionality, though I would certainly go to 4.1.x if a project
> comes
> up where I need it.
>
> Maybe JSF is where your future lies. If I were you, since there seems to
> be
> no serious time-pressure, I would look at your T3 applications and think
> about preparing for a move.  Start refactoring now to ensure good
> separation
> that will help you regardless of what you pick as your T3 successor.
>
> I guess there will be two questions to ask when the time comes:  What is
> the
> best framework?  Are there likely to be sweeping changes after T5?  I'm
> inclined to agree with HLS that after T5, it should be possible to make
> changes under the hood without breaking existing code.
>
>
> IMHO
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kranga [mailto:kranga@k2d2.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:23 AM
> > To: Tapestry users
> > Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community
> >
> > We invested in T3 and are sticking with it until JSF matures some more
> > (with
> > Infragistics releasing their component base for JSF, thats a great
> boost).
> > Clearly the Tapestry developers are in the pursuit of new
> > features/technologies rather than building up a community. Not that
> there
> > is
> > anything wrong with that, it is just their priority. However, the
> > consequence is reflected in the "niche and esoteric" nature of Tapestry
> > with
> > a glaring lack of widespread use. Tapestry gives you no lock-in and for
> > every upgrade you think of, you are given the opportunity to evaluate
> any
> > other framework out there :)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martino Piccinato" <ma...@gmail.com>
> > To: "Tapestry users" <us...@tapestry.apache.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community
> >
> >
> > > Well, I know it's not T4 => T5, I was just adding a possible source of
> > bad
> > > perception due to this misconception (and to misnaming...?)
> > >
> > > I think that the fact of not having a stable T4 "ajax ready" release
> add
> > > confusion to this. A customer thinking that T4 => T5 might think "well
> > > they
> > > are not pushing that much on T4 with ajax because they are already
> > working
> > > on T5, so as I want to work with Ajax why should I work with T4 that
> > will
> > > be
> > > soon outdated and not retrocompatible with T5?". And so on...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And actually having
> > >
> > > On 3/29/07, Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Martino,
> > >> your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of
> people
> > >> does.
> > >>
> > >> On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having
> > the
> > >> T4
> > >> > "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a
> > >> > long
> > >> > time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same
> to
> > >> > me:
> > >> > not
> > >> > critiques, just observations).
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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>

RE: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Jonathan Barker <jo...@gmail.com>]

I can see your points, but I disagree.  

With regard to the dramatic changes between 4.x and 5, I think it is worth
it to go through short-term pain for long-term gain.  I have seriously
questioned my choice of Tapestry because of these changes but keep coming up
with, "Wow, this is how it should be done!" 

If I look at the applications I've done in 4.0.x, I have good separation
between the layers. I have investments in the CSS, and the HTML that will
largely be retained, as well as all of the services, security and
persistence infrastructure.

I will probably go from 4.0.2 to 5.0.x because I currently don't need the
AJAX functionality, though I would certainly go to 4.1.x if a project comes
up where I need it.

Maybe JSF is where your future lies. If I were you, since there seems to be
no serious time-pressure, I would look at your T3 applications and think
about preparing for a move.  Start refactoring now to ensure good separation
that will help you regardless of what you pick as your T3 successor.  

I guess there will be two questions to ask when the time comes:  What is the
best framework?  Are there likely to be sweeping changes after T5?  I'm
inclined to agree with HLS that after T5, it should be possible to make
changes under the hood without breaking existing code.


IMHO

Jonathan



> -----Original Message-----
> From: kranga [mailto:kranga@k2d2.org]
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:23 AM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community
> 
> We invested in T3 and are sticking with it until JSF matures some more
> (with
> Infragistics releasing their component base for JSF, thats a great boost).
> Clearly the Tapestry developers are in the pursuit of new
> features/technologies rather than building up a community. Not that there
> is
> anything wrong with that, it is just their priority. However, the
> consequence is reflected in the "niche and esoteric" nature of Tapestry
> with
> a glaring lack of widespread use. Tapestry gives you no lock-in and for
> every upgrade you think of, you are given the opportunity to evaluate any
> other framework out there :)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martino Piccinato" <ma...@gmail.com>
> To: "Tapestry users" <us...@tapestry.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:39 AM
> Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community
> 
> 
> > Well, I know it's not T4 => T5, I was just adding a possible source of
> bad
> > perception due to this misconception (and to misnaming...?)
> >
> > I think that the fact of not having a stable T4 "ajax ready" release add
> > confusion to this. A customer thinking that T4 => T5 might think "well
> > they
> > are not pushing that much on T4 with ajax because they are already
> working
> > on T5, so as I want to work with Ajax why should I work with T4 that
> will
> > be
> > soon outdated and not retrocompatible with T5?". And so on...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > And actually having
> >
> > On 3/29/07, Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Martino,
> >> your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of people
> >> does.
> >>
> >> On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having
> the
> >> T4
> >> > "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a
> >> > long
> >> > time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to
> >> > me:
> >> > not
> >> > critiques, just observations).
> >> >
> >>
> >
> 
> 
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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com>]

Infragistics ????
please...
samples are so old fashioned,
it's a closed/blackbox suicide framework
the grid compared to the one I'm finishing (for free) is no more then a toy.

and I don't beleave in JSF.
and all this for $1,290.00/$795.00 ????????????????????????????????????? r u
serious ;-p ?

kiuma

On 3/31/07, kranga <kr...@k2d2.org> wrote:
>
> We invested in T3 and are sticking with it until JSF matures some more
> (with
> Infragistics releasing their component base for JSF, thats a great boost).
> Clearly the Tapestry developers are in the pursuit of new
> features/technologies rather than building up a community. Not that there
> is
> anything wrong with that, it is just their priority. However, the
> consequence is reflected in the "niche and esoteric" nature of Tapestry
> with
> a glaring lack of widespread use. Tapestry gives you no lock-in and for
> every upgrade you think of, you are given the opportunity to evaluate any
> other framework out there :)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martino Piccinato" <ma...@gmail.com>
> To: "Tapestry users" <us...@tapestry.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:39 AM
> Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community
>
>
> > Well, I know it's not T4 => T5, I was just adding a possible source of
> bad
> > perception due to this misconception (and to misnaming...?)
> >
> > I think that the fact of not having a stable T4 "ajax ready" release add
> > confusion to this. A customer thinking that T4 => T5 might think "well
> > they
> > are not pushing that much on T4 with ajax because they are already
> working
> > on T5, so as I want to work with Ajax why should I work with T4 that
> will
> > be
> > soon outdated and not retrocompatible with T5?". And so on...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > And actually having
> >
> > On 3/29/07, Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Martino,
> >> your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of people
> >> does.
> >>
> >> On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having
> the
> >> T4
> >> > "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a
> >> > long
> >> > time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to
> >> > me:
> >> > not
> >> > critiques, just observations).
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>

Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[kranga <kr...@k2d2.org>]

We invested in T3 and are sticking with it until JSF matures some more (with 
Infragistics releasing their component base for JSF, thats a great boost). 
Clearly the Tapestry developers are in the pursuit of new 
features/technologies rather than building up a community. Not that there is 
anything wrong with that, it is just their priority. However, the 
consequence is reflected in the "niche and esoteric" nature of Tapestry with 
a glaring lack of widespread use. Tapestry gives you no lock-in and for 
every upgrade you think of, you are given the opportunity to evaluate any 
other framework out there :)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martino Piccinato" <ma...@gmail.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <us...@tapestry.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community


> Well, I know it's not T4 => T5, I was just adding a possible source of bad
> perception due to this misconception (and to misnaming...?)
>
> I think that the fact of not having a stable T4 "ajax ready" release add
> confusion to this. A customer thinking that T4 => T5 might think "well 
> they
> are not pushing that much on T4 with ajax because they are already working
> on T5, so as I want to work with Ajax why should I work with T4 that will 
> be
> soon outdated and not retrocompatible with T5?". And so on...
>
>
>
>
> And actually having
>
> On 3/29/07, Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Martino,
>> your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of people
>> does.
>>
>> On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having the
>> T4
>> > "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a 
>> > long
>> > time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to 
>> > me:
>> > not
>> > critiques, just observations).
>> >
>>
> 


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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com>]

Well, I know it's not T4 => T5, I was just adding a possible source of bad
perception due to this misconception (and to misnaming...?)

I think that the fact of not having a stable T4 "ajax ready" release add
confusion to this. A customer thinking that T4 => T5 might think "well they
are not pushing that much on T4 with ajax because they are already working
on T5, so as I want to work with Ajax why should I work with T4 that will be
soon outdated and not retrocompatible with T5?". And so on...




And actually having

On 3/29/07, Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Martino,
> your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of people
> does.
>
> On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having the
> T4
> > "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a long
> > time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to me:
> > not
> > critiques, just observations).
> >
>

Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com>]

Martino,
your comment is because you consider T4=>T5 as the major part of people
does.

On 3/29/07, Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having the T4
> "Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a long
> time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to me:
> not
> critiques, just observations).
>

Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Martino Piccinato <ma...@gmail.com>]

I think another bad perception might origin from the fact of having the T4
"Ajax ready" 4.1 release still not released as stable after quite a long
time and a completely new not retrocompatible T5 appear (the same to me: not
critiques, just observations).

Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Andrea Chiumenti <ki...@gmail.com>]

+1
It's getting very difficult to convince customers to switch to Tapestry and
all because T5 name. This all because T5 is not the evolution of T4.
imho it would be sufficient to change name both on T4 and T5, T5 because
it's a new framework, T4 because it will give a fresh look to it.
This not for people like you and me (I'll play with both), but because it
will give to customers a safer sensation.
I work as independent consultant for big companies in Italy and Swiss, and
the association that people make, T4=>T5 is tangible and make the think
about alternatives like gwt.
I'm very displeased about this, because I really love Tapestry, but scare is
scare.
Customers say that when T5 will be out, their works on T4 will be soon
outdated.
I know that this isn't true, but with the name T4 and T5 it's pretty
impossible to convince them of the opposite.
Don't take this as a critic, but a point where possibly think about.
Best regards,
Kiuma

On 3/29/07, Matt Brock <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I do also try to give special priority to OGNL issues once they are
> > properly reported. I can understand this being a little frustrating
> > for those of you still running into these last few little compilation
> > issues I have to fix - but I hope the end result in vastly improved
> > runtime performance of your production applications will make up for
> > the temporary setbacks now.
>
> We're now pretty-heavily tied to Tap4, and we've been able to implement
> most
> of the AJAX features of 4.1 ourselves, but I have to say there are serious
> questions about whether we can continue down the Tapestry-road with the
> extreme changes to the API.  It's going to be hard to recommend Tapestry
> for
> large projects if every major release requires a complete recoding from
> the
> ground-up.
>
> That said, one of the things I've really been looking forward to is seeing
> how the improvements to OGNL will affect the performance of our current
> app.
> If we Tap4 users are stuck with an orphan, any free-be improvements will
> be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> So... uh... when's that getting released, again?
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/T5-vs-T4-vs-Community-tf3436664.html#a9725655
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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>
>

Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Matt Brock <br...@gmail.com>]

I do also try to give special priority to OGNL issues once they are
> properly reported. I can understand this being a little frustrating
> for those of you still running into these last few little compilation
> issues I have to fix - but I hope the end result in vastly improved
> runtime performance of your production applications will make up for
> the temporary setbacks now.

We're now pretty-heavily tied to Tap4, and we've been able to implement most
of the AJAX features of 4.1 ourselves, but I have to say there are serious
questions about whether we can continue down the Tapestry-road with the
extreme changes to the API.  It's going to be hard to recommend Tapestry for
large projects if every major release requires a complete recoding from the
ground-up.

That said, one of the things I've really been looking forward to is seeing
how the improvements to OGNL will affect the performance of our current app. 
If we Tap4 users are stuck with an orphan, any free-be improvements will be
greatly appreciated.

So... uh... when's that getting released, again?
-- 
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Re: T5 vs T4 vs Community

[Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>]

Hi Renat,

Sorry to hear about your frustrations. I will try to address each
point inline below.

On 3/20/07, Renat Zubairov <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> We are developing application based on T4.1. We have one T4 in
> production. And quite disappointed by the situation happening with
> Tapestry right now.
>
> Let me explain it from _my_ personal point of view.
> 1. Investments in T4 are lost. Application will not be portable to T5.

I don't think anyone has said T4 investments will be lost. I've stated
many times already that I'll be writing some sort of upgrade "kit" for
one version of tapestry to T5. I think I've already sort of made up my
mind that this will be T4 -> T5. (of course anyone can change that
with $$ )

On this very list I've seen people talking about running some form of
hivemind services with the new T5 IoC...So I suspect that this will
eventually not be as hard as people may think. The only reason we've
not said an upgrade path won't be provided is because that would limit
the future of tapestry - T5 - designs....No one said that they might
not end up being something that will actually be easy to upgrade
....It's just a playing it safe kind of thing. Nothing is worse than
making promises and not coming through - esp. on projects like this
where the community is the only thing that keeps something alive.

> 2. Project lead is only participating in the discussion of the T5
> questions on the mail list.

I've seen him answering T4 questions as well. We all do have to manage
our time very carefully - and right now Howard has a lot of people
playing with the very bleeding edge versions of T5...So he really has
to give them highest priority as that is "the right thing to do" .

Andreas / myself / everyone else are all still here to help with T4
whenever Howard is busy though. I've been trying hard to make sure I
stay on top of list questions. Do people think there questions are
going un-answered or is it that you just really would prefer to hear
them from Howard?

> 3. T4.1 is in deep development and release plan is _very_ unclear.
> Development will the development of T4.1 ever come to some meaningful
> conclusion? Feature stability? Snapshot releases can be broken any
> time. I haven't seen any non-snapshot release of 4.1.X so far.
> Latest update of the new OGNL version? Was was the reason for that?
> Less stability? One snapshot depends on another snapshot?
>
Deep development isn't exactly true. At least not from my perspective.
Feature stability / bug fixing / old issue fixing is the main thing
I'm concentrating on now. Not to say that I'm not going to do anything
new wrt Ajax / etc , just that it seems like the right time to fix up
some of what are roughly 130 outstanding jira issues for T4 .

The OGNL upgrade was a performance boost. I may have mis-read what
people wanted, but over time I've seen lots of complaints about OGNL
performance and since I didn't see anyone else doing anything about it
(other than Howard creating tapestry-prop for everyone) I decided to
go ahead and fix it myself. I'm now also the lead OGNL developer.

I do also try to give special priority to OGNL issues once they are
properly reported. I can understand this being a little frustrating
for those of you still running into these last few little compilation
issues I have to fix - but I hope the end result in vastly improved
runtime performance of your production applications will make up for
the temporary setbacks now.

Bugs reported for ognl usually get fixed within a day or two of
reporting. For example, I'm sure no ExpressionCompiler related bugs
will exist tomorrow. They aren't that hard to fix but there are still
conditions that pop up that the current test cases haven't handled
yet. I get them when they come up or I spot a pattern of problems.

Also, T 4.1.1 was released a while back...And it ~is~ SNAPSHOT sort of
alpha software...

> I have a serious fear that 4.1 will never see the release. In half a
> year (?) T5 is planned to be released?
> How important for project lead and project team stability of the
> framework? I can understand the pursuit of new fancy features and
> improvements, but never the less how do you see the project plan?
> How do you see migration path from 4 to 5, from 4.1 to 5?
> How do you see AJAX and JSON features to be implemented in 5.0?
>
> Wouldn't it be better to made some conclusion in 4.1 and put all efforts in 5.0?
>

I can't really answer to T5 questions right now. I may help a little
here and there if it's really needed but I can't justify working on it
fully until all of the T4 issues have been resolved - again roughly
130 - there's a lot of work left to do still. :)

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAPESTRY

My personal development plan is to try and get 4.1.2 out the door once
the ognl changes look stable. (ie no reported issues for at least a
week or two )

Once that gets done I'll just continue down the path of what I already
have been...Slight ajax feature improvements / usage / etc combined
with more bug fixes / overall framework improvements. When you don't
see any (or not very many ) T4 issues sitting in JIRA you'll know I'm
ready to move on to T5 and only do slight bug fix / feature
improvements on T4 as they come up.

I'm sure T5 will start to attract new developers at some point as
well, so I'm not really worried about it right now. I do want to see
T4 become a rock solid series before I move on though, it's become an
obsession now.  There will be cross dev on T5 at some point either way
- but on an even more practical pov T4 is what pays my bills right
now....Working on T5 only would be putting myself out of business, and
I already lost a pretty large chunk of $$ working on OGNL so I don't
think I can afford anything else.

> --
> Best regards,
> Renat Zubairov
>
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-- 
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer

Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com

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