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Posted to dev@diversity.apache.org by "Elek, Marton" <el...@apache.org> on 2020/08/02 08:16:55 UTC
D&I person for PMC member
Hi,
I am working on a project proposal where a sub-project of an existing
Apache project supposed to move to a separated Apache top level project.
(the current proposal is drafting at [1], but we already had a similar
move, which is already done [2])
The new project requires new PMC and we already started to discuss how
it should be defined.
One of the existing PMC members suggested to include people from
"end-user" companies. It's a new project, and there are are people, who
are interested about the project, follow and help design discussions,
sometimes help with the test, frequently call-in to the weekly community
calls....
They may help the adoption and seems to be important to represent them
in the project governance even if they have no code contributions.
During the original discussions these (proposed) members called as "user
seat" members, and I started to think about a "D&I" seat.
I think it's would be great to have somebody in the PMC:
1. Who can monitor D&I related processes/actions/events (and anomalies)
2. Who can add suggestions to make the project more open
3. Who an propose participation in "D&I" related programs
4. Who can help to resolve D&I relaed debates/arguments (if there are
any).
5. Have a slightly external view of the project (can report unnoticed
problems)
6. And have existing Apache related connections (1-5. supposed to be
done with the Apache Way)
In my thinking this PMC member would follow the private mailing list,
ignore all the technical content (!), but step up in case of any
problems. (Other idea: contact to this member can be shared on project
pages).
Finally the question:
Is there any body here who
1. like this idea
2. would be happy to try this experiment and join to the PMC of the
new project?
+bonus question: what is your opinion about this approach
Note: this idea is not yet accepted/voted by other PMCs, but discussed
offline with 1-2 of them. I would like to start with proposing a name
(more names can help). And there is a low chance that this method will
be rejected by others. (Here I represent myself, not the project)
Thanks a lot,
Marton
[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP/Ozone+Hadoop+subproject+to+Apache+TLP+proposal
[2]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP/Submarine+Project+Spin-Off+to+TLP+Proposal
Re: D&I person for PMC member
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
TVM is the podling. Example explanation recently given:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r8889d357292fe251086d8224fe255cb9d7f46a466aad1a61161e0871%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
Quote:
"""
We strongly believe in nurturing contributions, welcome members to the
community, and help the community to grow organically under the Apache way.
The community is actively bringing in new committers, and we are doing so
at a monthly rate.
To encourage diversity and healthy growth the PPMC members strive to make a
more diverse community by only nominating people from a different
organization.
So there could be cases where a person from my own organization that I
think should be nominated as a committer, but I wait until the person get
recognized by a fellow PMC member
from another organization. This wait usually won't be too long. Even
better, the community members work together with each other,
since the most important factor is after all the community.
"""
On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 at 11:06, Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 1 Sep 2020, at 15:47, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > One interesting guideline I’ve seen a podling use recently was having PMC
> > members only be nominated by people they don’t already work with. That
>
> Very nice - which one is this ? So we can steer people to good examples?
>
> Dw.
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: D&I person for PMC member
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On 1 Sep 2020, at 15:47, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One interesting guideline I’ve seen a podling use recently was having PMC
> members only be nominated by people they don’t already work with. That
Very nice - which one is this ? So we can steer people to good examples?
Dw.
Re: D&I person for PMC member
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
One interesting guideline I’ve seen a podling use recently was having PMC
members only be nominated by people they don’t already work with. That
certainly helps improve diversity of interests rather than allowing a
single company to have shadow influence. I’d imagine any efforts to make
releases more easy to validate for less technical people would help in
getting more participation there, too, since that’s one of the primary
responsibilities of the PMC.
On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 04:45 Elek, Marton <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 8/10/20 5:18 PM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
>
> > Hi Marton,
>
> >
>
> > I think the approach of including people from end user companies is an
>
> > excellent idea. I recently completed my master's thesis on vendor
>
> > neutrality in open source, and one of my conclusions was that PMCs should
>
> > strive to include representation from any group that directly benefits
>
> > economically from the open source project. In many cases, this will
>
> > naturally include the vendors participating in an open source project.
> But
>
> > it could indicate a need to look beyond just those vendors.
>
> >
>
> > Still, I hesitate to accept the idea that one person on your PMC alone
>
> > should be responsible for D&I. It might set your project up for conflict
>
> > if not everyone is striving to achieve that goal. And it gives that
> aspect
>
> > of your project a bus factor of 1.*
>
> >
>
> > If people on your project are interested in D&I, do you think multiple
>
> > members of the PMC can share that responsibility?
>
>
>
> Thanks the answer (and sorry for the late response).
>
>
>
> I totally agree, it shouldn't be the responsibility of one person, it
>
> should be responsibility of everyone.
>
>
>
> But still don't know how can we be sure that we don't miss something.
>
> Based on our current discussions, my impression is that our (active
>
> project members/PMC) thinking scheme are very similar inside the project.
>
>
>
> It's more like a generic question: what are the steps which can help to
>
> make the project governance more inclusive, continuously. I had a few
>
> ideas until now, but nothing is perfect:
>
>
>
> 1. Get feedback from an "external eye" (see the beginning of this thread)
>
>
>
> 2. Generate very detailed statistics which can include all kind of
>
> contributions (hard to include some contributions, like handling twitter
>
> account) [1]
>
>
>
> 3. Define and agree in inclusive rules (to nominate a PMC) and try to
>
> use them.
>
>
>
> 4. Reduce the required trust to nominate somebody to a committer
>
>
>
>
>
> But none of these are perfect and all them have the own difficulty to
>
> implement it.
>
>
>
> Marton
>
>
>
> [1]: earlier attempt:
>
> https://www.kaggle.com/quinooj/apache-hadoop-ozone-github-contributions
>
> --
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: D&I person for PMC member
Posted by "Elek, Marton" <el...@apache.org>.
On 8/10/20 5:18 PM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> Hi Marton,
>
> I think the approach of including people from end user companies is an
> excellent idea. I recently completed my master's thesis on vendor
> neutrality in open source, and one of my conclusions was that PMCs should
> strive to include representation from any group that directly benefits
> economically from the open source project. In many cases, this will
> naturally include the vendors participating in an open source project. But
> it could indicate a need to look beyond just those vendors.
>
> Still, I hesitate to accept the idea that one person on your PMC alone
> should be responsible for D&I. It might set your project up for conflict
> if not everyone is striving to achieve that goal. And it gives that aspect
> of your project a bus factor of 1.*
>
> If people on your project are interested in D&I, do you think multiple
> members of the PMC can share that responsibility?
Thanks the answer (and sorry for the late response).
I totally agree, it shouldn't be the responsibility of one person, it
should be responsibility of everyone.
But still don't know how can we be sure that we don't miss something.
Based on our current discussions, my impression is that our (active
project members/PMC) thinking scheme are very similar inside the project.
It's more like a generic question: what are the steps which can help to
make the project governance more inclusive, continuously. I had a few
ideas until now, but nothing is perfect:
1. Get feedback from an "external eye" (see the beginning of this thread)
2. Generate very detailed statistics which can include all kind of
contributions (hard to include some contributions, like handling twitter
account) [1]
3. Define and agree in inclusive rules (to nominate a PMC) and try to
use them.
4. Reduce the required trust to nominate somebody to a committer
But none of these are perfect and all them have the own difficulty to
implement it.
Marton
[1]: earlier attempt:
https://www.kaggle.com/quinooj/apache-hadoop-ozone-github-contributions
Re: D&I person for PMC member
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hi Marton,
I think the approach of including people from end user companies is an
excellent idea. I recently completed my master's thesis on vendor
neutrality in open source, and one of my conclusions was that PMCs should
strive to include representation from any group that directly benefits
economically from the open source project. In many cases, this will
naturally include the vendors participating in an open source project. But
it could indicate a need to look beyond just those vendors.
Still, I hesitate to accept the idea that one person on your PMC alone
should be responsible for D&I. It might set your project up for conflict
if not everyone is striving to achieve that goal. And it gives that aspect
of your project a bus factor of 1.*
If people on your project are interested in D&I, do you think multiple
members of the PMC can share that responsibility?
Best Regards,
Myrle
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:17 AM Elek, Marton <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am working on a project proposal where a sub-project of an existing
> Apache project supposed to move to a separated Apache top level project.
>
> (the current proposal is drafting at [1], but we already had a similar
> move, which is already done [2])
>
> The new project requires new PMC and we already started to discuss how
> it should be defined.
>
> One of the existing PMC members suggested to include people from
> "end-user" companies. It's a new project, and there are are people, who
> are interested about the project, follow and help design discussions,
> sometimes help with the test, frequently call-in to the weekly community
> calls....
>
> They may help the adoption and seems to be important to represent them
> in the project governance even if they have no code contributions.
>
> During the original discussions these (proposed) members called as "user
> seat" members, and I started to think about a "D&I" seat.
>
>
> I think it's would be great to have somebody in the PMC:
>
> 1. Who can monitor D&I related processes/actions/events (and anomalies)
> 2. Who can add suggestions to make the project more open
> 3. Who an propose participation in "D&I" related programs
> 4. Who can help to resolve D&I relaed debates/arguments (if there are
> any).
> 5. Have a slightly external view of the project (can report unnoticed
> problems)
> 6. And have existing Apache related connections (1-5. supposed to be
> done with the Apache Way)
>
>
> In my thinking this PMC member would follow the private mailing list,
> ignore all the technical content (!), but step up in case of any
> problems. (Other idea: contact to this member can be shared on project
> pages).
>
>
> Finally the question:
>
> Is there any body here who
>
>
> 1. like this idea
> 2. would be happy to try this experiment and join to the PMC of the
> new project?
>
> +bonus question: what is your opinion about this approach
>
>
> Note: this idea is not yet accepted/voted by other PMCs, but discussed
> offline with 1-2 of them. I would like to start with proposing a name
> (more names can help). And there is a low chance that this method will
> be rejected by others. (Here I represent myself, not the project)
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Marton
>
>
> [1]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP/Ozone+Hadoop+subproject+to+Apache+TLP+proposal
>
> [2]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP/Submarine+Project+Spin-Off+to+TLP+Proposal
>