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Posted to dev@tapestry.apache.org by "me@darksider.net" <me...@darksider.net> on 2006/09/04 01:35:56 UTC
UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Hello everyone,
this question goes to main team that developer the core of tapestry.
I'm currently working in big company (7.000+ employees) and we are in
the way to think about
update our J2EE environment and frameworks.
Im including in that big "brainstorm" in particular on the web and
portal applications, and about the presentation framework we have allot
of doubts and we currently have to choices in mind
Tapestry and JSF,
I have done some research with tapestry and jsf, i like allot tapestry
over jsf, and i have few question that i should like to have some
answers, to have more arguments to select the best for my company.
- The components parts are very important for us, i want to know the
experience from the team and users about the incorporate with portals
(portlet's, now its native) - VERY important THING, and the issues.
- Other important thing its about the compatibility of version (think
this may be one of the big causes not bigger success on this framework),
if we go to T4 how the core team think to maintain the compatibility of
T4 apps in T5?
- About support, how its works? do Tapestry community have support in
Europe? (Portugal), and if yes how can we have some courses?
I hope that somehow everyone on this community can help to answer my
questions.
Thanks for all reading me.
Best regards,
Fernando Pereira
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Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by "me@darksider.net" <me...@darksider.net>.
Hi Jonas,
i understand quite well your point of view and thanks for reply with
your considerations,
and i most say i agree almost all u wrote
Just to give u small feedback, i work for my own company that its large
like i previous said, we
have sub-company to provide the IT and SI service where i work, thats
mean we need to create
and keep large application running for long time
I will do some more research and taking in consideration what you
howard said, i know its hard
decision, i just want to have all point of view in consideration thats all.
Thanks to all, i will keep u guys update with my experiences.
Keep the good work on tapestry
Jonas Maurus wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
>
> Frankly, it's not directly a technical question. Howard is moving on
> from Tapestry 4, going in a less-xml-more-pojos-with-annotations
> direction. I think what you have to base your decision on a investment
> strategy, not on technical merits.
>
> Our shop invested heavily in Tapestry 3, and then we did the steep
> learning curve before a good book on Tapestry 4 was available
> (Kent's), using Howard's book as a starting point.
>
> We decided to run with Tapestry 4 with the first beta for an in-house
> application and developed against CVS-checkouts along the way. That
> was a lot of work, keeping up with the changes, at times maintaining
> our own branch.
>
> JSF/JSP will go the same way that the J2EE 1.3/1.4 stack did: a number
> of frameworks will emerge that will help along with the problems that
> developers will experience. That's precisely how we gained Dependency
> Injection and coarse-grained ORM in JEE 5.
>
> Tapestry 4 rode on that wave, so currently it's the lean alternative
> with all the upsides and no apparent downside (has anyone integrated
> Hivemind/Tapestry with JEE-style @Resource-Injection??)
>
> BUT in 3 years time, you will have to move on, to support new
> technologies, new development paradigms and perhaps to support a big
> new version(tm) of the software you're going to develop now. And,
> frankly, I fear that Tapestry might be a bad investment decision at
> that point if you don't keep up with Tapestry 5 development, as (even
> less than with Tapestry 3) there's no migration path.
>
> We're currently having one Tapestry 3 application that we'll need to
> extend soon. Unfortunately, the customer will not pay for an upgrade
> to Tapestry 4 after we calculated the time that it would take to do
> so. So we're stuck with a deteriorating codebase, with currently no
> way forward, that will make it harder and harder over time to add new
> features. The main problem I have now when talking to management is
> that I cannot guarantee that we don't have the same problem 2 years
> from now, when Tapestry 5 matures. This requires us to have developers
> on staff that are able to work with a Tapestry 3 application that will
> need a new feature once in a while but not often enough to justify a
> full upgrade.
>
> So the questions I'd ask are:
> * how many developers do you have to train and how big is the chance
> that they'll work with JSF in the future in unrelated projects?
> * does the customer allow you to incorporate new technologies as
> they emerge or do they need a very stable codebase?
> * how many applications will you develop with this technology?
> * how long do you expect to support the software and how much is it
> going to grow in this time?
> * is there a chance to have a, at worst, multiple-months upgrade
> period to replace first parts of the application, or the application
> as a whole with something new? or is it more of a
> "fire-and-forget"-application that will most likely not see big
> investments in the future?
>
> Please understand me correctly! I don't want to spread any FUD here...
> Tapestry is a GREAT framework, it let's you get things done very
> quickly in a very clean way and JSF is not even NEAR the productivity
> you gain from Tapestry, but you need to factor in future costs or else
> you might encounter a big surprise in 2 years time.
>
> The first part would be to create a budget for keeping up with
> Tapestry 5 development. For example, just get Howard on a plane twice
> over the next 2 years, or something like that, so he can keep you up
> to date.
>
> But to sum up my email: in my experience future cost and portfolio
> management should drive your decision, not technical merits.
>
> I hope that helps a bit
> Jonas
>
> PS: and just to say it: If you just need to develop a blogging
> application, Ruby on Rails or Django might be better... you can do
> that in 20 minutes there as opposed to 30 minutes in Tapestry with
> Hibernate or EJB 3.0 ;-), so a "small" application might not get you
> the statistical data you want.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
I keep feeling like a second class citizen here with my and Andys tapestry
4.1 (and 4.2/etc future releases) development.. :/
Just because Howard is working on the future of tapestry it doesn't mean
that Tapestry4 is dead by default...I have a ~lot~ of time invested in 4 and
don't plan on seeing it go to waste..
So..To be clear..I do nothing but dojo/tapestry development for a living.
Seeing it hurt/deterioted hurts me as well. I'm also pretty much the "main"
dev(besides Andy, who is becoming more and more active lately) on 4.1 and
have lots of exciting plans for it.
My 2 cents to make sure the people actively developing Tapestry have their
say as well. (i should say I am a user of course as well ;) )
On 9/6/06, Jonas Maurus <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Fernando,
>
> Frankly, it's not directly a technical question. Howard is moving on
> from Tapestry 4, going in a less-xml-more-pojos-with-annotations
> direction. I think what you have to base your decision on a investment
> strategy, not on technical merits.
>
> Our shop invested heavily in Tapestry 3, and then we did the steep
> learning curve before a good book on Tapestry 4 was available
> (Kent's), using Howard's book as a starting point.
>
> We decided to run with Tapestry 4 with the first beta for an in-house
> application and developed against CVS-checkouts along the way. That
> was a lot of work, keeping up with the changes, at times maintaining
> our own branch.
>
> JSF/JSP will go the same way that the J2EE 1.3/1.4 stack did: a number
> of frameworks will emerge that will help along with the problems that
> developers will experience. That's precisely how we gained Dependency
> Injection and coarse-grained ORM in JEE 5.
>
> Tapestry 4 rode on that wave, so currently it's the lean alternative
> with all the upsides and no apparent downside (has anyone integrated
> Hivemind/Tapestry with JEE-style @Resource-Injection??)
>
> BUT in 3 years time, you will have to move on, to support new
> technologies, new development paradigms and perhaps to support a big
> new version(tm) of the software you're going to develop now. And,
> frankly, I fear that Tapestry might be a bad investment decision at
> that point if you don't keep up with Tapestry 5 development, as (even
> less than with Tapestry 3) there's no migration path.
>
> We're currently having one Tapestry 3 application that we'll need to
> extend soon. Unfortunately, the customer will not pay for an upgrade
> to Tapestry 4 after we calculated the time that it would take to do
> so. So we're stuck with a deteriorating codebase, with currently no
> way forward, that will make it harder and harder over time to add new
> features. The main problem I have now when talking to management is
> that I cannot guarantee that we don't have the same problem 2 years
> from now, when Tapestry 5 matures. This requires us to have developers
> on staff that are able to work with a Tapestry 3 application that will
> need a new feature once in a while but not often enough to justify a
> full upgrade.
>
> So the questions I'd ask are:
> * how many developers do you have to train and how big is the chance
> that they'll work with JSF in the future in unrelated projects?
> * does the customer allow you to incorporate new technologies as
> they emerge or do they need a very stable codebase?
> * how many applications will you develop with this technology?
> * how long do you expect to support the software and how much is it
> going to grow in this time?
> * is there a chance to have a, at worst, multiple-months upgrade
> period to replace first parts of the application, or the application
> as a whole with something new? or is it more of a
> "fire-and-forget"-application that will most likely not see big
> investments in the future?
>
> Please understand me correctly! I don't want to spread any FUD here...
> Tapestry is a GREAT framework, it let's you get things done very
> quickly in a very clean way and JSF is not even NEAR the productivity
> you gain from Tapestry, but you need to factor in future costs or else
> you might encounter a big surprise in 2 years time.
>
> The first part would be to create a budget for keeping up with
> Tapestry 5 development. For example, just get Howard on a plane twice
> over the next 2 years, or something like that, so he can keep you up
> to date.
>
> But to sum up my email: in my experience future cost and portfolio
> management should drive your decision, not technical merits.
>
> I hope that helps a bit
> Jonas
>
> PS: and just to say it: If you just need to develop a blogging
> application, Ruby on Rails or Django might be better... you can do
> that in 20 minutes there as opposed to 30 minutes in Tapestry with
> Hibernate or EJB 3.0 ;-), so a "small" application might not get you
> the statistical data you want.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo/(and a dash of TestNG), team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by Jonas Maurus <jo...@gmail.com>.
Hi Fernando,
Frankly, it's not directly a technical question. Howard is moving on
from Tapestry 4, going in a less-xml-more-pojos-with-annotations
direction. I think what you have to base your decision on a investment
strategy, not on technical merits.
Our shop invested heavily in Tapestry 3, and then we did the steep
learning curve before a good book on Tapestry 4 was available
(Kent's), using Howard's book as a starting point.
We decided to run with Tapestry 4 with the first beta for an in-house
application and developed against CVS-checkouts along the way. That
was a lot of work, keeping up with the changes, at times maintaining
our own branch.
JSF/JSP will go the same way that the J2EE 1.3/1.4 stack did: a number
of frameworks will emerge that will help along with the problems that
developers will experience. That's precisely how we gained Dependency
Injection and coarse-grained ORM in JEE 5.
Tapestry 4 rode on that wave, so currently it's the lean alternative
with all the upsides and no apparent downside (has anyone integrated
Hivemind/Tapestry with JEE-style @Resource-Injection??)
BUT in 3 years time, you will have to move on, to support new
technologies, new development paradigms and perhaps to support a big
new version(tm) of the software you're going to develop now. And,
frankly, I fear that Tapestry might be a bad investment decision at
that point if you don't keep up with Tapestry 5 development, as (even
less than with Tapestry 3) there's no migration path.
We're currently having one Tapestry 3 application that we'll need to
extend soon. Unfortunately, the customer will not pay for an upgrade
to Tapestry 4 after we calculated the time that it would take to do
so. So we're stuck with a deteriorating codebase, with currently no
way forward, that will make it harder and harder over time to add new
features. The main problem I have now when talking to management is
that I cannot guarantee that we don't have the same problem 2 years
from now, when Tapestry 5 matures. This requires us to have developers
on staff that are able to work with a Tapestry 3 application that will
need a new feature once in a while but not often enough to justify a
full upgrade.
So the questions I'd ask are:
* how many developers do you have to train and how big is the chance
that they'll work with JSF in the future in unrelated projects?
* does the customer allow you to incorporate new technologies as
they emerge or do they need a very stable codebase?
* how many applications will you develop with this technology?
* how long do you expect to support the software and how much is it
going to grow in this time?
* is there a chance to have a, at worst, multiple-months upgrade
period to replace first parts of the application, or the application
as a whole with something new? or is it more of a
"fire-and-forget"-application that will most likely not see big
investments in the future?
Please understand me correctly! I don't want to spread any FUD here...
Tapestry is a GREAT framework, it let's you get things done very
quickly in a very clean way and JSF is not even NEAR the productivity
you gain from Tapestry, but you need to factor in future costs or else
you might encounter a big surprise in 2 years time.
The first part would be to create a budget for keeping up with
Tapestry 5 development. For example, just get Howard on a plane twice
over the next 2 years, or something like that, so he can keep you up
to date.
But to sum up my email: in my experience future cost and portfolio
management should drive your decision, not technical merits.
I hope that helps a bit
Jonas
PS: and just to say it: If you just need to develop a blogging
application, Ruby on Rails or Django might be better... you can do
that in 20 minutes there as opposed to 30 minutes in Tapestry with
Hibernate or EJB 3.0 ;-), so a "small" application might not get you
the statistical data you want.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by "me@darksider.net" <me...@darksider.net>.
Probably i will have teams doing the same project (small one) with JSF
and other with T4, and get some internal feedback from more developers.
Thanks for quick answer Howard.
Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
> The recurring theme I've gotten from my many clients is that they
> looked at
> JSF and looked at Tapestry and saw Tapestry as the clear winner.
>
> JSF demos well, and its goals are good, and its a newer code base.
> However,
> once you get past demos and prototypes, it ends up being quite a bit of
> coding. Facelets, which adapts some Tapestry ideas to JSF, is a big
> help,
> as it makes it easier to create custom components ... but does so at the
> expense of incompatibility with the JSF IDEs, which require you to stick
> with the default, JSP based view stack.
>
> There are quite a number of Tapestry developers in the UK and in
> Europe. As
> to professional support, take a peek at http://tapestrysupport.com.
>
> Tapestry has excellent integration with portlets.
>
> Compatibility, and the lack thereof, between Tapestry 4 and Tapestry 5
> is an
> issue. I've controversially stated that compatibility is at best a
> secondary
> issue. I've already been able to accomplish some amazing things in the
> Tapestry 5 code base because I'm not trying for backwards compatibility:
> this includes POJO classes and automatic class reloading. The basic
> concepts of Tapestry 4 will carry forward to Tapestry 5, but the
> implementation is completely different.
>
> I've been accused of not caring about backwards compatibility, but the
> reality is that I do care about it, and I've been facing the conflict
> between adding features and breaking compatibility with each new
> release of
> Tapestry. Tapestry 5 rewrites those rules so that it will be quite
> reasonable to add features without breaking existing code.
>
>
> On 9/3/06, me@darksider.net <me...@darksider.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> this question goes to main team that developer the core of tapestry.
>>
>> I'm currently working in big company (7.000+ employees) and we are in
>> the way to think about
>> update our J2EE environment and frameworks.
>>
>> Im including in that big "brainstorm" in particular on the web and
>> portal applications, and about the presentation framework we have allot
>> of doubts and we currently have to choices in mind
>> Tapestry and JSF,
>>
>> I have done some research with tapestry and jsf, i like allot tapestry
>> over jsf, and i have few question that i should like to have some
>> answers, to have more arguments to select the best for my company.
>>
>> - The components parts are very important for us, i want to know the
>> experience from the team and users about the incorporate with portals
>> (portlet's, now its native) - VERY important THING, and the issues.
>>
>> - Other important thing its about the compatibility of version (think
>> this may be one of the big causes not bigger success on this framework),
>> if we go to T4 how the core team think to maintain the compatibility of
>> T4 apps in T5?
>>
>> - About support, how its works? do Tapestry community have support in
>> Europe? (Portugal), and if yes how can we have some courses?
>>
>> I hope that somehow everyone on this community can help to answer my
>> questions.
>> Thanks for all reading me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fernando Pereira
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
Like Id Software ... when it's ready!
That is the 64 billion dollar question. I have a number of things to work
out, such as links and forms. I'm working quick, but I'm also writing
documentation, tests and javadoc as I go. I can't get over how pleased I am
at the performance.
Further, the "working version" is a bit hard to nail down. I want to have
good Hibernate integration. I want to have a built in BeanEditor type of
component from the get-go. I want to rethink and revisit client side form
validation (Jesse is way ahead here on the 4.1 code). I want to support OGNL
as an extension. I want a preview mode for pages. I want to support
code-less pages and components. I want good tutorials to get people started.
I want to finish e-pluribus for Tapestry 4.0 and port it to Tapestry 5.0.
I think we'll be able to do lots of this very quickly, starting pretty soon.
I'm "raising the tent pole" for a bit longer, before we invite the circus
inside! However, I do need to keep working on other things (upcoming
presentations at ApacheCon and The Ajax Experience, as well as NFJS ... not
to mention real paying gigs to pay the rent).
On 9/5/06, Mark Stang <ms...@pingidentity.com> wrote:
>
> So, when will a "working" version be available?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tue 9/5/2006 12:49 PM
> To: Tapestry development
> Subject: Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
>
> The recurring theme I've gotten from my many clients is that they looked
> at
> JSF and looked at Tapestry and saw Tapestry as the clear winner.
>
> JSF demos well, and its goals are good, and its a newer code
> base. However,
> once you get past demos and prototypes, it ends up being quite a bit of
> coding. Facelets, which adapts some Tapestry ideas to JSF, is a big help,
> as it makes it easier to create custom components ... but does so at the
> expense of incompatibility with the JSF IDEs, which require you to stick
> with the default, JSP based view stack.
>
> There are quite a number of Tapestry developers in the UK and in
> Europe. As
> to professional support, take a peek at http://tapestrysupport.com.
>
> Tapestry has excellent integration with portlets.
>
> Compatibility, and the lack thereof, between Tapestry 4 and Tapestry 5 is
> an
> issue. I've controversially stated that compatibility is at best a
> secondary
> issue. I've already been able to accomplish some amazing things in the
> Tapestry 5 code base because I'm not trying for backwards compatibility:
> this includes POJO classes and automatic class reloading. The basic
> concepts of Tapestry 4 will carry forward to Tapestry 5, but the
> implementation is completely different.
>
> I've been accused of not caring about backwards compatibility, but the
> reality is that I do care about it, and I've been facing the conflict
> between adding features and breaking compatibility with each new release
> of
> Tapestry. Tapestry 5 rewrites those rules so that it will be quite
> reasonable to add features without breaking existing code.
>
>
> On 9/3/06, me@darksider.net <me...@darksider.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > this question goes to main team that developer the core of tapestry.
> >
> > I'm currently working in big company (7.000+ employees) and we are in
> > the way to think about
> > update our J2EE environment and frameworks.
> >
> > Im including in that big "brainstorm" in particular on the web and
> > portal applications, and about the presentation framework we have allot
> > of doubts and we currently have to choices in mind
> > Tapestry and JSF,
> >
> > I have done some research with tapestry and jsf, i like allot tapestry
> > over jsf, and i have few question that i should like to have some
> > answers, to have more arguments to select the best for my company.
> >
> > - The components parts are very important for us, i want to know the
> > experience from the team and users about the incorporate with portals
> > (portlet's, now its native) - VERY important THING, and the issues.
> >
> > - Other important thing its about the compatibility of version (think
> > this may be one of the big causes not bigger success on this framework),
> > if we go to T4 how the core team think to maintain the compatibility of
> > T4 apps in T5?
> >
> > - About support, how its works? do Tapestry community have support in
> > Europe? (Portugal), and if yes how can we have some courses?
> >
> > I hope that somehow everyone on this community can help to answer my
> > questions.
> > Thanks for all reading me.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Fernando Pereira
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> TWD Consulting, Inc.
> Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
> Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
> Creator, Apache HiveMind
>
> Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
> and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
>
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
RE: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by Mark Stang <ms...@pingidentity.com>.
So, when will a "working" version be available?
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
Sent: Tue 9/5/2006 12:49 PM
To: Tapestry development
Subject: Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
The recurring theme I've gotten from my many clients is that they looked at
JSF and looked at Tapestry and saw Tapestry as the clear winner.
JSF demos well, and its goals are good, and its a newer code base. However,
once you get past demos and prototypes, it ends up being quite a bit of
coding. Facelets, which adapts some Tapestry ideas to JSF, is a big help,
as it makes it easier to create custom components ... but does so at the
expense of incompatibility with the JSF IDEs, which require you to stick
with the default, JSP based view stack.
There are quite a number of Tapestry developers in the UK and in Europe. As
to professional support, take a peek at http://tapestrysupport.com.
Tapestry has excellent integration with portlets.
Compatibility, and the lack thereof, between Tapestry 4 and Tapestry 5 is an
issue. I've controversially stated that compatibility is at best a secondary
issue. I've already been able to accomplish some amazing things in the
Tapestry 5 code base because I'm not trying for backwards compatibility:
this includes POJO classes and automatic class reloading. The basic
concepts of Tapestry 4 will carry forward to Tapestry 5, but the
implementation is completely different.
I've been accused of not caring about backwards compatibility, but the
reality is that I do care about it, and I've been facing the conflict
between adding features and breaking compatibility with each new release of
Tapestry. Tapestry 5 rewrites those rules so that it will be quite
reasonable to add features without breaking existing code.
On 9/3/06, me@darksider.net <me...@darksider.net> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> this question goes to main team that developer the core of tapestry.
>
> I'm currently working in big company (7.000+ employees) and we are in
> the way to think about
> update our J2EE environment and frameworks.
>
> Im including in that big "brainstorm" in particular on the web and
> portal applications, and about the presentation framework we have allot
> of doubts and we currently have to choices in mind
> Tapestry and JSF,
>
> I have done some research with tapestry and jsf, i like allot tapestry
> over jsf, and i have few question that i should like to have some
> answers, to have more arguments to select the best for my company.
>
> - The components parts are very important for us, i want to know the
> experience from the team and users about the incorporate with portals
> (portlet's, now its native) - VERY important THING, and the issues.
>
> - Other important thing its about the compatibility of version (think
> this may be one of the big causes not bigger success on this framework),
> if we go to T4 how the core team think to maintain the compatibility of
> T4 apps in T5?
>
> - About support, how its works? do Tapestry community have support in
> Europe? (Portugal), and if yes how can we have some courses?
>
> I hope that somehow everyone on this community can help to answer my
> questions.
> Thanks for all reading me.
>
> Best regards,
> Fernando Pereira
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
Re: UseTapestry and Questions (Points to consider)
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
The recurring theme I've gotten from my many clients is that they looked at
JSF and looked at Tapestry and saw Tapestry as the clear winner.
JSF demos well, and its goals are good, and its a newer code base. However,
once you get past demos and prototypes, it ends up being quite a bit of
coding. Facelets, which adapts some Tapestry ideas to JSF, is a big help,
as it makes it easier to create custom components ... but does so at the
expense of incompatibility with the JSF IDEs, which require you to stick
with the default, JSP based view stack.
There are quite a number of Tapestry developers in the UK and in Europe. As
to professional support, take a peek at http://tapestrysupport.com.
Tapestry has excellent integration with portlets.
Compatibility, and the lack thereof, between Tapestry 4 and Tapestry 5 is an
issue. I've controversially stated that compatibility is at best a secondary
issue. I've already been able to accomplish some amazing things in the
Tapestry 5 code base because I'm not trying for backwards compatibility:
this includes POJO classes and automatic class reloading. The basic
concepts of Tapestry 4 will carry forward to Tapestry 5, but the
implementation is completely different.
I've been accused of not caring about backwards compatibility, but the
reality is that I do care about it, and I've been facing the conflict
between adding features and breaking compatibility with each new release of
Tapestry. Tapestry 5 rewrites those rules so that it will be quite
reasonable to add features without breaking existing code.
On 9/3/06, me@darksider.net <me...@darksider.net> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> this question goes to main team that developer the core of tapestry.
>
> I'm currently working in big company (7.000+ employees) and we are in
> the way to think about
> update our J2EE environment and frameworks.
>
> Im including in that big "brainstorm" in particular on the web and
> portal applications, and about the presentation framework we have allot
> of doubts and we currently have to choices in mind
> Tapestry and JSF,
>
> I have done some research with tapestry and jsf, i like allot tapestry
> over jsf, and i have few question that i should like to have some
> answers, to have more arguments to select the best for my company.
>
> - The components parts are very important for us, i want to know the
> experience from the team and users about the incorporate with portals
> (portlet's, now its native) - VERY important THING, and the issues.
>
> - Other important thing its about the compatibility of version (think
> this may be one of the big causes not bigger success on this framework),
> if we go to T4 how the core team think to maintain the compatibility of
> T4 apps in T5?
>
> - About support, how its works? do Tapestry community have support in
> Europe? (Portugal), and if yes how can we have some courses?
>
> I hope that somehow everyone on this community can help to answer my
> questions.
> Thanks for all reading me.
>
> Best regards,
> Fernando Pereira
>
>
>
>
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--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com