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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> on 2007/09/28 18:03:40 UTC
Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was: Incubator
Proposal: Pig]]
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> Theres more of an issue IMO with projects that don't come thru the
> incubator, since they don't have to meet the Incubator's stringent
> graduation requirement. As an example - Tapestry was pushed out to a
> TLP from Jakarta,[...]
Jakarta is disintegrating. All big projects have gone TLP,
there are two or three more that might just make it. The rest
is too inactive, because of maturity or disinterest, to stand
on their own. There have been discussions every few months on
how to revive inactive projects, and sending them back into
the incubator was one of the options. Not that it matters much,
I don't remember any that picked up enough interest.
Now the projects that are still active but have only a small
developer community - too small for Incubator standards for
sure - are caught between a rock and a hard place. There are
users out there, and the code has seen many official releases.
Going into the Incubator and making unofficial "incubating"
releases from there is not a preferred option.
Going TLP with just enough PMCs to collect three binding votes
during holiday season creates TLPs with a very high dependency
on very few people. Projects which are an issue.
Staying at Jakarta will buy some time, but won't last forever.
If you have ideas on what to do with these small but active
projects, please come over to general@jakarta and share your
thoughts. The two examples I have in mind are HttpComponents
and JMeter, but there may be others:
http://jakarta.apache.org/httpcomponents/index.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter/index.html
cheers,
Roland
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 10/12/07, Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net> wrote:
<snip>
> > I'd keep server side separate, but a rest-centric server side stack
> > (with no attempts to support WSDL) would be appealing, though restlets
> > exist for that purpose.
>
> Hmm. Can't say that I've ever perceived REST as much more than a
> buzzword,
FWIW REST is one of the better defined architectural styles
(http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/top.htm). if you
want to understand why ROA is becoming more important, read RESTful
Web Services (see http://www.crummy.com/writing/RESTful-Web-Services/,
for example).
- robert
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Eelco Hillenius <ee...@gmail.com>.
> Hmm. Can't say that I've ever perceived REST as much more than a
> buzzword
One of these things that started out as an architectural pattern, and
got hijacked for a thousand different interpretations. If it 'has'
REST, it's gotta be good ;-)
Eelco
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Steve, Niclas,
>>> Any Java stack that does SOAP or REST should be using
>>> HttpClient
>>
>> That seems to indicate that it should be a TLP in its own right.
>
> you want that, you get my support.
Thanks for your encouragement. I'm currently drowned in work,
but I intend to kick off the (hopefully last) TLP discussion
on httpcomponents-dev@jakarta before the end of this month.
Unless Oleg beats me to it :-)
> axis, ant-contrib, maven, jetty, wss4j, groovy. So not xerces or xalan.
> Maybe they are hoping someone will fix java.net.HttpUrlConnection now it
> is OSS/
Xerces and Xalan have plug-in interfaces for resolving external
references. They wouldn't do themselves a favour by adding an
external dependency for the default implementation. Just as we
wouldn't do ourselves a favour by shipping HttpComponents with
a specific SSL implementation.
http://xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/javadocs/api/org/xml/sax/EntityResolver.html
http://xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/javadocs/api/org/xml/sax/ext/EntityResolver2.html
http://xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/javadocs/api/javax/xml/transform/URIResolver.html
http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/apidocs/javax/xml/transform/URIResolver.html
>> And if the charter is extended to http server side as well (without
>> the servlet cruft ;o) ), we have a pretty immense project.
That already happened when HttpComponents left Commons
to become a separate Jakarta sub-project two years ago:
http://jakarta.apache.org/httpcomponents/charter.html
HttpComponents Core is agnostic, while HttpComponents Client is
the future replacement for the client-side 3.x codebase we'd like
to bury. The charter also includes specific statements that we will
not be developing server-side application layer APIs. I believe that
was necessary because others developing server-side HTTP (Tomcat?)
felt that we were stepping on their toes. At the time, it was
Apache policy to not allow competing projects, or so I've heard.
Your help to define the scope for the new project will be most
welcome.
> I'd keep server side separate, but a rest-centric server side stack
> (with no attempts to support WSDL) would be appealing, though restlets
> exist for that purpose.
Hmm. Can't say that I've ever perceived REST as much more than a
buzzword, but you're welcome to share your ideas. Even more so if
you bring in some folks who want to contribute code ;-) The current
developers are maxed out with pushing the two components we've got
towards production quality.
cheers,
Roland
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Monday 08 October 2007 18:37, Steve Loughran wrote:
>> Any Java stack that does SOAP or REST should be using
>> HttpClient
>
> That seems to indicate that it should be a TLP in its own right.
you want that, you get my support.
>
> Besides WS, we have;
> - Maven do the http client stuff... the naive version??
> - Ivy would be in the same boat.
> - Any XML parser and XSL transformer must be supporting externalizations.
> the list as you initiated will probably be long at exhaustive search.
gump shows some dependencies; a full walk of the m2 metadata will show
the rest
http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/httpcomponents/commons-httpclient/details.html
axis, ant-contrib, maven, jetty, wss4j, groovy. So not xerces or xalan.
Maybe they are hoping someone will fix java.net.HttpUrlConnection now it
is OSS/
>
> And if the charter is extended to http server side as well (without the
> servlet cruft ;o) ), we have a pretty immense project.
lovely servlet cruft. Much better than what sun builds in to java6.
I'd keep server side separate, but a rest-centric server side stack
(with no attempts to support WSDL) would be appealing, though restlets
exist for that purpose.
-steve
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 08 October 2007 18:37, Steve Loughran wrote:
> Any Java stack that does SOAP or REST should be using
> HttpClient
That seems to indicate that it should be a TLP in its own right.
Besides WS, we have;
- Maven do the http client stuff... the naive version??
- Ivy would be in the same boat.
- Any XML parser and XSL transformer must be supporting externalizations.
the list as you initiated will probably be long at exhaustive search.
And if the charter is extended to http server side as well (without the
servlet cruft ;o) ), we have a pretty immense project.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: HttpClient, HttpComponents (was Jakarta)
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@apache.org>.
Roland Weber wrote:
> A fallback option is to move from Jakarta to
> WebServices, exchanging one umbrella for another. That wouldn't
> move us forward, and the impression we got from Jakarta is that
> umbrellas are not in favour at the board.
> As a TLP, we will have a fighting chance to grow the project
> to the point where it no longer depends on just the two of us.
> Until that is achieved, we'll be one of those projects that
> Niall referred to, with community issues because they didn't
> pass through the Incubator. That's why I thought it was a good
> occasion to ask for suggestions. The new HttpComponents as well
> as the old HttpClient we maintain are being used by Apache
> projects, so coming into the Incubator is not an option for
> HttpComponents.
I dont consider http support in webservices as a general purpose
umbrella. Any Java stack that does SOAP or REST should be using
HttpClient unless they are naiive fools who believe that there is
someone that actually maintains java.net.HttpUrl, and that persion has
actually read the HTTP RFCs.
1. it is used in Axis, XFire, Alpine. I think the only mainstream stack
that doesnt use it is the Sun one, but they have the ability to fix bits
of java.net, and/or the naiive optimism I mentioned earlier.
2. It would be a good way of kickstarting more pure RESTy stuff in the
WS group.
3. this has been raised on ws pmc, we'd love to have the
HttpComponents/HttpClient team(s) on board if you want to join.
-steve
(still on the WS PMC, incidentally)
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was: Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 01.10.2007, at 18:43, Roland Weber wrote:
> Erik Abele wrote:
>> Sure, am happy to help (as a satisfied user of both,
>> HttpComponents and
>> JMeter); just let me know where you'd like to see me subscribed... (I
>> assume httpcomponents-dev@j.a.o and jmeter-dev-@j.a.o?)
>
> That's great! Yes, those will be the interesting lists in terms
> of future directions for both subprojects.
Done.
> If the traffic on
> either list is too high, you could subscribing to general@jakarta
> instead.
Already subscribed.
> I'll make sure to post there when discussions get on
> the way. For HttpComponents, we're planning to prepare the TLP
> proposal for the December board meeting.
Nice.
> You can find some older
> discussions in the mailing list archives.
Ok, will have a look, thx for the pointers.
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was:
Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Erik Abele wrote:
> Sure, am happy to help (as a satisfied user of both, HttpComponents and
> JMeter); just let me know where you'd like to see me subscribed... (I
> assume httpcomponents-dev@j.a.o and jmeter-dev-@j.a.o?)
That's great! Yes, those will be the interesting lists in terms
of future directions for both subprojects. If the traffic on
either list is too high, you could subscribing to general@jakarta
instead. I'll make sure to post there when discussions get on
the way. For HttpComponents, we're planning to prepare the TLP
proposal for the December board meeting. You can find some older
discussions in the mailing list archives.
thanks!
Roland
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was: Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 30.09.2007, at 18:17, Roland Weber wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>> I don't know what to suggest, but perhaps recruiting one or more
>> veteran
>> ASFer, either just off the member's list or some experienced
>> Incubator
>> mentor, feeling this being important could just join the PMC and
>> at least
>> ensure process with 3 pairs of eye balls.
>
> Yeah, we'll try to get a veteran (though not a member) to help us
> out as
> the chair for the initial phase. (speaking for HttpComponents, not
> JMeter)
>
> If anyone here feels like keeping an eye on us too, you're most
> welcome.
> We know our way through the code and public processes up to PMC,
> but we
> currently don't have an ASF member on board who is familiar with
> what's
> going on beyond PMC. (speaking for both)
Sure, am happy to help (as a satisfied user of both, HttpComponents
and JMeter); just let me know where you'd like to see me
subscribed... (I assume httpcomponents-dev@j.a.o and jmeter-dev-@j.a.o?)
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was:
Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> I don't know what to suggest, but perhaps recruiting one or more veteran
> ASFer, either just off the member's list or some experienced Incubator
> mentor, feeling this being important could just join the PMC and at least
> ensure process with 3 pairs of eye balls.
Yeah, we'll try to get a veteran (though not a member) to help us out as
the chair for the initial phase. (speaking for HttpComponents, not JMeter)
If anyone here feels like keeping an eye on us too, you're most welcome.
We know our way through the code and public processes up to PMC, but we
currently don't have an ASF member on board who is familiar with what's
going on beyond PMC. (speaking for both)
thanks for taking the time,
Roland
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was: Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sunday 30 September 2007 01:19, Roland Weber wrote:
> The new HttpComponents as well
> as the old HttpClient we maintain are being used by Apache
> projects, so coming into the Incubator is not an option for
> HttpComponents.
I agree. And typically, TLPs receive somewhat more exposure than sub-projects
and a better chance of building a stronger community.
I don't know what to suggest, but perhaps recruiting one or more veteran
ASFer, either just off the member's list or some experienced Incubator
mentor, feeling this being important could just join the PMC and at least
ensure process with 3 pairs of eye balls.
It sounds to me there should be such interest...
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was:
Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hello Niclas,
>> Staying at Jakarta will buy some time, but won't last forever.
>> >
>> > If you have ideas on what to do with these small but active
>> > projects, please come over to general@jakarta and share your
>> > thoughts.
>
> Can't Jakarta just be revitalized as a home for small, but mature and stable
> projects??
I feel Jakarta has to downsize some more before we can think
about reviving it in a new role. A home for small, mature and
stable projects is surely an option, though I don't believe
it will be easy.
The two projects I care about, however, do not match that profile.
They are highly active, evolving, and growing. You can see that
from Jakarta's September board report[1]: 5 releases, all of them
from JMeter and HttpComponents. JMeter released 2.3 final today,
and HttpComponents has three more releases in the pipeline until
the end of the year. Both projects have hundreds of mails on
their lists each month. That's not what I would associate with
"mature and stable", which sounds more like "maintenance mode".
So, both projects are actively developed and used. We know how
to vote and cut releases. The projects have prospects of growing
and attracting a larger user base, from which we can hope to
get new committers over time. But at the moment, both depend
on a very small group of developers that provide continuity,
with occasional patches from others coming in. And we don't get
the time to grow organically, with Jakarta disintegrating.
I don't know what Sebastian plans for JMeter. Oleg and I will
push for an HttpComponents TLP later this year. Not because we
feel that the project is ready for that move, but because we
see it is the best option left to us. Either we stay at Jakarta
until we're being asked to leave (or shut down), or we make a
move of our own while we can still choose the time to our
convenience. A fallback option is to move from Jakarta to
WebServices, exchanging one umbrella for another. That wouldn't
move us forward, and the impression we got from Jakarta is that
umbrellas are not in favour at the board.
As a TLP, we will have a fighting chance to grow the project
to the point where it no longer depends on just the two of us.
Until that is achieved, we'll be one of those projects that
Niall referred to, with community issues because they didn't
pass through the Incubator. That's why I thought it was a good
occasion to ask for suggestions. The new HttpComponents as well
as the old HttpClient we maintain are being used by Apache
projects, so coming into the Incubator is not an option for
HttpComponents.
I'm sorry if this is getting off-topic. I'm just trying to
tap into the Incubator's experience in community building.
cheers,
Roland
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaBoardReport-current
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Re: Jakarta [was: Effects on corporate backing withdrawals [was: Incubator Proposal: Pig]]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 29 September 2007 00:03, Roland Weber wrote:
> Staying at Jakarta will buy some time, but won't last forever.
>
> If you have ideas on what to do with these small but active
> projects, please come over to general@jakarta and share your
> thoughts.
Can't Jakarta just be revitalized as a home for small, but mature and stable
projects??
We must allow for stable, near perfect codebases, to "just exist" without
further development, i.e. no dedicated community.
Cheers
Niclas
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