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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by John McNally <jm...@collab.net> on 2002/05/01 06:28:54 UTC
Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all
your projects to maven!)
On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 20:38, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 4/30/02 11:31 PM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
>
> > I do not know where to locate Turbine's original charter and I think it
> > is a good idea to try to follow it. Are these published somewhere or
> > should Turbine maintain it in its own documentation? However the scope
> > of a subproject is likely to grow/evolve over time. Velocity does
> > provide at least one servlet that allows it to be used to develop a
> > webapp independent of any other framework.
>
> I think that's stretching 'webapp' I guess tomcat does the same thing as it
> supplies servlets... :)
Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system that
it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it might be more
generally useful. Tomcat is a large project and they certainly could
have had the itch. And if they promoted it occasionally what's the big
deal.
>
> > Struts is adding support for
> > Velocity even though one of its primary reasons for being proposed with
> > Turbine already existing was to limit the view to jsp exclusively.
>
> I think you are mistaken - we are building a toolkit to use Velocity as the
> view layer in Struts.... Struts isn't adding any support AFAIK.
>
Okay, I guess I could argue that developing a taglib (or something more
elaborate) is outside the scope of a project around a template engine.
Except that I am arguing against such strict definition of scope. And
from what I saw I thought it was pretty cool.
john mcnally
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Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On 30 Apr 2002, John McNally <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
> Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system
> that it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it
> might be more generally useful.
It once had, it was called Ant. 8-)
Stefan
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Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects
to maven!)
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
John McNally wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 20:38, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>On 4/30/02 11:31 PM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I do not know where to locate Turbine's original charter and I think it
>>>is a good idea to try to follow it. Are these published somewhere or
>>>should Turbine maintain it in its own documentation? However the scope
>>>of a subproject is likely to grow/evolve over time. Velocity does
>>>provide at least one servlet that allows it to be used to develop a
>>>webapp independent of any other framework.
>>
>>I think that's stretching 'webapp' I guess tomcat does the same thing as it
>>supplies servlets... :)
>
>
> Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system that
> it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it might be more
> generally useful. Tomcat is a large project and they certainly could
> have had the itch. And if they promoted it occasionally what's the big
> deal.
Where do you think we got ANT from? That started with Tomcat as a
subproject and then became its own project.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects
to maven!)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 5/1/02 11:41 AM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >>
>> On 5/1/02 12:28 AM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system that
>>> it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it might be more
>>> generally useful. Tomcat is a large project and they certainly could
>>> have had the itch. And if they promoted it occasionally what's the big
>>> deal.
>>
>> <joke>
>> If you have ever built tomcat from source, you might wish they had a build
>> system...
>> </joke>
>>
>> That used to be true - I don't know if it is anymore.
>
> Actually, Tomcat *does* include a nice little build system for web apps --
> in the Application Developer's Guide. Among other things, it sets up your
> compile class path to include everything Tomcat has in its shared
> repositories (common/lib and so on) for you. In the HEAD branch, and in
> the 4.1.0 test release, it even includes custom Ant tasks that interact
> with the Manager webapp to install, reload, and uninstall apps
> dynamically.
>
> The difference is that we don't badger people into using it -- their
> choice. :-)
No, I meant for tomcat proper. A while ago, it was a bear to build entirely
from source...
I did it once, proved I could do it, and then happily fetched the binaries
since :)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Struts is adding support for
>>>>> Velocity even though one of its primary reasons for being proposed with
>>>>> Turbine already existing was to limit the view to jsp exclusively.
>>>>
>>>> I think you are mistaken - we are building a toolkit to use Velocity as the
>>>> view layer in Struts.... Struts isn't adding any support AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, I guess I could argue that developing a taglib (or something more
>>> elaborate) is outside the scope of a project around a template engine.
>>
>> We have one of those too. :) Lets you do wacky things like
>>
>> <jsp:useBean id="mybean" class="GeirBean" />
>>
>> <body>
>> <vel:velocity strictaccess="true">
>>
>> #set($mybean = $scopetool.getPageScope("mybean"))
>>
>> #if(true)
>> this is true!
>> #end
>>
>> <br>
>>
>> $mybean.string
>>
>> <br>
>>
>> #foreach($item in $mybean.array)
>> $item <br>
>> #end
>>
>> </vel:velocity>
>> </body>
>> </html>
>>
>
> Hey Geir, I though there weren't any scriptlets in Velocity? :-)
:)
That's a JSP page. And maybe the right term is "Velocilets" or something.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
The obvious solutions are challenging
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Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects
to maven!)
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 1 May 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 00:41:23 -0400
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@optonline.net>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your
> projects to maven!)
>
> On 5/1/02 12:28 AM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 20:38, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >> On 4/30/02 11:31 PM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I do not know where to locate Turbine's original charter and I think it
> >>> is a good idea to try to follow it. Are these published somewhere or
> >>> should Turbine maintain it in its own documentation? However the scope
> >>> of a subproject is likely to grow/evolve over time. Velocity does
> >>> provide at least one servlet that allows it to be used to develop a
> >>> webapp independent of any other framework.
> >>
> >> I think that's stretching 'webapp' I guess tomcat does the same thing as it
> >> supplies servlets... :)
> >
> > Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system that
> > it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it might be more
> > generally useful. Tomcat is a large project and they certainly could
> > have had the itch. And if they promoted it occasionally what's the big
> > deal.
>
> <joke>
> If you have ever built tomcat from source, you might wish they had a build
> system...
> </joke>
>
> That used to be true - I don't know if it is anymore.
Actually, Tomcat *does* include a nice little build system for web apps --
in the Application Developer's Guide. Among other things, it sets up your
compile class path to include everything Tomcat has in its shared
repositories (common/lib and so on) for you. In the HEAD branch, and in
the 4.1.0 test release, it even includes custom Ant tasks that interact
with the Manager webapp to install, reload, and uninstall apps
dynamically.
The difference is that we don't badger people into using it -- their
choice. :-)
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> Struts is adding support for
> >>> Velocity even though one of its primary reasons for being proposed with
> >>> Turbine already existing was to limit the view to jsp exclusively.
> >>
> >> I think you are mistaken - we are building a toolkit to use Velocity as the
> >> view layer in Struts.... Struts isn't adding any support AFAIK.
> >>
> >
> > Okay, I guess I could argue that developing a taglib (or something more
> > elaborate) is outside the scope of a project around a template engine.
>
> We have one of those too. :) Lets you do wacky things like
>
> <jsp:useBean id="mybean" class="GeirBean" />
>
> <body>
> <vel:velocity strictaccess="true">
>
> #set($mybean = $scopetool.getPageScope("mybean"))
>
> #if(true)
> this is true!
> #end
>
> <br>
>
> $mybean.string
>
> <br>
>
> #foreach($item in $mybean.array)
> $item <br>
> #end
>
> </vel:velocity>
> </body>
> </html>
>
Hey Geir, I though there weren't any scriptlets in Velocity? :-)
> > Except that I am arguing against such strict definition of scope. And
> > from what I saw I thought it was pretty cool.
>
> But I understand the point. What we are hoping to do is to make
> tools/support so you can use Velocity templates as a view layer in Struts,
> so you have a choice about the view layer, like you do in Turbine. :) For
> us, it's all about making it easier to use Velocity as it isn't An Official
> Standard.
>
> This concludes the Velocity/Turbine/Struts plug-fest. :)
>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
> System and Software Consulting
> POC lives!
>
Craig
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Re: jakarta subproject scope (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects
to maven!)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 5/1/02 12:28 AM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 20:38, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On 4/30/02 11:31 PM, "John McNally" <jm...@collab.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I do not know where to locate Turbine's original charter and I think it
>>> is a good idea to try to follow it. Are these published somewhere or
>>> should Turbine maintain it in its own documentation? However the scope
>>> of a subproject is likely to grow/evolve over time. Velocity does
>>> provide at least one servlet that allows it to be used to develop a
>>> webapp independent of any other framework.
>>
>> I think that's stretching 'webapp' I guess tomcat does the same thing as it
>> supplies servlets... :)
>
> Well I would not be bothered if tomcat had developed a build system that
> it packaged as an independent entity with the idea that it might be more
> generally useful. Tomcat is a large project and they certainly could
> have had the itch. And if they promoted it occasionally what's the big
> deal.
<joke>
If you have ever built tomcat from source, you might wish they had a build
system...
</joke>
That used to be true - I don't know if it is anymore.
>
>
>>
>>> Struts is adding support for
>>> Velocity even though one of its primary reasons for being proposed with
>>> Turbine already existing was to limit the view to jsp exclusively.
>>
>> I think you are mistaken - we are building a toolkit to use Velocity as the
>> view layer in Struts.... Struts isn't adding any support AFAIK.
>>
>
> Okay, I guess I could argue that developing a taglib (or something more
> elaborate) is outside the scope of a project around a template engine.
We have one of those too. :) Lets you do wacky things like
<jsp:useBean id="mybean" class="GeirBean" />
<body>
<vel:velocity strictaccess="true">
#set($mybean = $scopetool.getPageScope("mybean"))
#if(true)
this is true!
#end
<br>
$mybean.string
<br>
#foreach($item in $mybean.array)
$item <br>
#end
</vel:velocity>
</body>
</html>
> Except that I am arguing against such strict definition of scope. And
> from what I saw I thought it was pretty cool.
But I understand the point. What we are hoping to do is to make
tools/support so you can use Velocity templates as a view layer in Struts,
so you have a choice about the view layer, like you do in Turbine. :) For
us, it's all about making it easier to use Velocity as it isn't An Official
Standard.
This concludes the Velocity/Turbine/Struts plug-fest. :)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
POC lives!
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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