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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com> on 2000/12/13 18:41:03 UTC
Mod_perl tutorials
Jeff,
I was looking around Stas' site and found a discussion in which you
stated that you taught some underlings about mod_perl in 2 five hour sessions.
What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can distribute, or
did most of it come off of the top your head?
Thanks,
Jon
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Editing xml with no good xml editor is a nightmare... that's why pod is
> much friendly even if it's very limited. I want to be able to edit files
> from any console on any machine. Can I run StarOffice from remote
> machine? Of course, not. It hardly runs on the local machine, as it's
> bloated just like M$$Word...
Time to move into the 21st century Stas. I use VNC, works great. Even
accessing my home machine from the US wasn't too slow with ssh
compression. (and thats a 64K max connection)
> Even cvs diffs with XML won't be very easy to read, because there are too
> many tags.
Thats a non-argument. XML can have as many or as few tags as POD.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On 13 Dec 2000, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> writes:
>
> Gunther> I would be against PPT if StarOffice couldn't read and write those
> Gunther> files. But since there is a Linux alternative, I would prefer a slide
> Gunther> format stored in the format that slides are made for.
>
> Gunther> Unless of course, anyone has experience with StarOffice being
> Gunther> particularly bad at this. In which case, maybe we do have to start
> Gunther> with POD or XML for everytthing including the slides.
>
> Well, StarOffice doesn't run on my Mac. :) But when Darwin finalizes,
> that'll probably be a moot point, presuming someone compiles
> StarOffice for Darwin.
>
> However, a better format for interchange would almost certainly be
> something like XML or (horrors) POD. A text-ish format would make
> diffs from CVS make more sense anyway.
Editing xml with no good xml editor is a nightmare... that's why pod is
much friendly even if it's very limited. I want to be able to edit files
from any console on any machine. Can I run StarOffice from remote
machine? Of course, not. It hardly runs on the local machine, as it's
bloated just like M$$Word...
Even cvs diffs with XML won't be very easy to read, because there are too
many tags.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> writes:
Gunther> I would be against PPT if StarOffice couldn't read and write those
Gunther> files. But since there is a Linux alternative, I would prefer a slide
Gunther> format stored in the format that slides are made for.
Gunther> Unless of course, anyone has experience with StarOffice being
Gunther> particularly bad at this. In which case, maybe we do have to start
Gunther> with POD or XML for everytthing including the slides.
Well, StarOffice doesn't run on my Mac. :) But when Darwin finalizes,
that'll probably be a moot point, presuming someone compiles
StarOffice for Darwin.
However, a better format for interchange would almost certainly be
something like XML or (horrors) POD. A text-ish format would make
diffs from CVS make more sense anyway.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
Gunther Birznieks writes:
> BTW, how long (in time) was this course (in the lecture format you gave it
> in)? And how well did the timing work out for the slides?
I had three hours. I got to the point where I could end on time.
Generally I would take time early on and speed up towards the end :-)
The timing is pretty good. I gave a test run before the tutorials to
make sure I was in the ballpark, and it was surprisingly accurate.
Nat
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
Granted that many are interested in seeing the end result, but from the
amount of volunteers to do actual work (maybe 4 or so) there's not so much.
So in that case, a mailing list for the development and enhancements of
existing training material makes sense, but we would still, of course, post
an ANNOUNCE: any time we want to send out general milestone information.
However, to tell the truth, I think most of the traffic will happen in the
beginning and then die down as people go off and actually do work. Then an
RFC Announce will be done and there will be a flurry of comments (probably
on here) which will end up dying down again.
Later,
Gunther
At 04:03 PM 12/15/2000 +1100, Jeremy Howard wrote:
>Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > META COMMENT...
> >
> > Maybe it's time we spun off a mailing list for this discussion,
> > unless it's still interesting to the rest of the onlookers.
> > Anyone care to host it or take that on?
> >
>I would have thought that most people here are interested in how to teach
>mod_perl--a lot of us bring on staff who need to learn mod_perl. Personally,
>I'd be happy to see the discussion stay here...
__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@extropia.com)
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Jeremy Howard <jh...@fastmail.fm>.
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> META COMMENT...
>
> Maybe it's time we spun off a mailing list for this discussion,
> unless it's still interesting to the rest of the onlookers.
> Anyone care to host it or take that on?
>
I would have thought that most people here are interested in how to teach
mod_perl--a lot of us bring on staff who need to learn mod_perl. Personally,
I'd be happy to see the discussion stay here...
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> writes:
Gunther> OK. One thing I was considering is that instead of being a monolithic
Gunther> mod_perl class that it should be broken into modules with recommended
Gunther> ways of piecing together the modules based on the amount of time
Gunther> people had.
Gunther> Eventually then each module can having stats on it like how long it
Gunther> takes to teach that module. If a module is a good module but takes an
Gunther> awkward amount of time to teach (eg 4 hours) then maybe some material
Gunther> in that module can moved to another one.
Gunther> So if someone wanted to teach mod_perl at Perl Mongers in two 3-hour
Gunther> sessions, we could recommend a certain set of modules. And then if
Gunther> someone had 2-days to teach someone at work, then XYZ set of modules
Gunther> would be recommended, and if someone has a week, we have some advanced
Gunther> modules at the end.
For Stonehenge classes, we usually design an ifdef'ed slide set 4
ways: "short" "short with exercises" "long" "long with exercises".
Maybe we could do something like that here.
META COMMENT...
Maybe it's time we spun off a mailing list for this discussion,
unless it's still interesting to the rest of the onlookers.
Anyone care to host it or take that on?
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 10:06 AM 12/14/00 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>Gunther Birznieks writes:
> > However, I am willing to concede that as a first cut, fancy slides are
> > probably not worth it because the slides will change too often. Once v1 is
> > released, then someone can transcribe the slides to PPT (or maybe a tool
> > will exist by then) as a "stable release" if they want to (probably
> someone
> > like me.)
>
>Getting anything done with a mailing list full of programmers is
>nearly impossible. Everyone wants to write tools, but nobody has said
>"give me the slides for a week and I'll make them better". Instead
>we're arguing about the best source format :-)
That's to some degree why I had planned on being a bit quiet for a while
and not post these thoughts I was having until I had looked at the slides
in more detail and played with them a bit.
>I developed the slides in a POD-like slide format that Tom
>Christiansen uses. One of his trainers developed a slide2rtf
>converter, and the rtf can then be imported into PowerPoint. That
>doesn't work with StarOffice, as importing RTF immediately drops you
>into the WordProcessor.
>
>I think that my slides are pretty close to a v1. I don't know that
>the subsequent tweaks will be worth the hassle of PPT conversion.
>
>I'd rather not revert back to the POD-like format. Importing into PPT
>is a pain in the arse. I'd rather find someone who wants to work on
>the class and say "ok, it's yours for a week--fix it".
OK. One thing I was considering is that instead of being a monolithic
mod_perl class that it should be broken into modules with recommended ways
of piecing together the modules based on the amount of time people had.
Eventually then each module can having stats on it like how long it takes
to teach that module. If a module is a good module but takes an awkward
amount of time to teach (eg 4 hours) then maybe some material in that
module can moved to another one.
So if someone wanted to teach mod_perl at Perl Mongers in two 3-hour
sessions, we could recommend a certain set of modules. And then if someone
had 2-days to teach someone at work, then XYZ set of modules would be
recommended, and if someone has a week, we have some advanced modules at
the end.
Likewise, perhaps you are asked to go to a perl shop that has already
started using mod_perl and knows Apache::Registry, so you skip ahead to
other modules.
Anyway, if we stick with PPT as a format, then I think we would be more
likely to split the course into modules anyway because it makes it easier.
>So consider this a call to arms: anyone with StarOffice/Powerpoint
>want to bang on the class?
I won't have a solid block of time to really do justice to thinking about
this thoroughly until the weekend. So until then I am just running off at
the mouth. So now you know someone is interested, but now you also seem
annoyed with all the talking...
Anyway, I do think it's worth a week of going about to get input and
feedback on these things. I would be worried if 4 weeks had passed and
people were still screwing about talking about it and not doing anything.
BTW, how long (in time) was this course (in the lecture format you gave it
in)? And how well did the timing work out for the slides?
Later,
Gunther
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Max Calvo <ma...@maxcalvo.net>.
Hi all;
This is my first post in this mailing list. I am very interested in helping
out getting the modperl tutorials out. I have experience with Photoshop,
Illustrator and M$Office. I can help with the slices and web design.
Please let me know where I can help out.
-Max
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathan Torkington" <gn...@frii.com>
To: "mod_perl list" <mo...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Mod_perl tutorials
> Gunther Birznieks writes:
> > However, I am willing to concede that as a first cut, fancy slides are
> > probably not worth it because the slides will change too often. Once v1
is
> > released, then someone can transcribe the slides to PPT (or maybe a tool
> > will exist by then) as a "stable release" if they want to (probably
someone
> > like me.)
>
> Getting anything done with a mailing list full of programmers is
> nearly impossible. Everyone wants to write tools, but nobody has said
> "give me the slides for a week and I'll make them better". Instead
> we're arguing about the best source format :-)
>
> I developed the slides in a POD-like slide format that Tom
> Christiansen uses. One of his trainers developed a slide2rtf
> converter, and the rtf can then be imported into PowerPoint. That
> doesn't work with StarOffice, as importing RTF immediately drops you
> into the WordProcessor.
>
> I think that my slides are pretty close to a v1. I don't know that
> the subsequent tweaks will be worth the hassle of PPT conversion.
>
> I'd rather not revert back to the POD-like format. Importing into PPT
> is a pain in the arse. I'd rather find someone who wants to work on
> the class and say "ok, it's yours for a week--fix it".
>
> So consider this a call to arms: anyone with StarOffice/Powerpoint
> want to bang on the class?
>
> Nat
>
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
Gunther Birznieks writes:
> However, I am willing to concede that as a first cut, fancy slides are
> probably not worth it because the slides will change too often. Once v1 is
> released, then someone can transcribe the slides to PPT (or maybe a tool
> will exist by then) as a "stable release" if they want to (probably someone
> like me.)
Getting anything done with a mailing list full of programmers is
nearly impossible. Everyone wants to write tools, but nobody has said
"give me the slides for a week and I'll make them better". Instead
we're arguing about the best source format :-)
I developed the slides in a POD-like slide format that Tom
Christiansen uses. One of his trainers developed a slide2rtf
converter, and the rtf can then be imported into PowerPoint. That
doesn't work with StarOffice, as importing RTF immediately drops you
into the WordProcessor.
I think that my slides are pretty close to a v1. I don't know that
the subsequent tweaks will be worth the hassle of PPT conversion.
I'd rather not revert back to the POD-like format. Importing into PPT
is a pain in the arse. I'd rather find someone who wants to work on
the class and say "ok, it's yours for a week--fix it".
So consider this a call to arms: anyone with StarOffice/Powerpoint
want to bang on the class?
Nat
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nigel Hamilton <ni...@e1mail.com>.
Hi,
I'm for the minimalist slides approach ... I often think there's
an inverse relationship between powerpoint buzz and the speaker's
presentation skills --- a good speaker knows that *they* engage the
audience not their slides.
Some of the best technical presentations I've seen use almost *no
slides* and the detail is contained in handouts.
Nige
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> Well, the nicer the slides the more they can be used outside of PM groups.
> The ideal would be something that (A) Can be made to look nice and (B) Is
> relatively brandable in case a conference has a particular look-and-feel
> they prefer authors using.
good points.
> > > (and if I'm honest, I've always shuddered a bit seeing you use gv for
> > > your slideshows - its just not a good slideshow application. Sorry
> > > Stas :-)
> >
> >Well, that's what I have. I don't think that when you show bullets of text
> >it matters if you use PP or gv. I'm not giving marketing presentation, but
> >pure info comprised of text bullets and code snippets, gv does it just
> >right. I could include pictures if I had any...
>
> I think the slides are very good for your talks because they fit a style
> you are comfortable with. But there are people who aren't so comfortable
> with the plain look when giving a talk -- I am one of those people. I am
> not talking about ruining a slideshow with annoying animations, just making
> it look somewhat crisp with clean and mean graphics.
The main point of slides is to keep your audience on focus and sync
themselves fast if they day dream. I've always found myself struggling
between looking at the slides or listening to a speaker. I've found that
I've lost a lot if I didn't concentrate on the speaker. And I was only
reading slides when the speaker was boring.
Slides are by no means teaching, there are to help the speaker to keep on
focus as well and keep on the course of the prepared talk. There are to
help the speaker in some moments when he gets lost, which happens to all
of us...
Slides are *very* usefull to show code snippets and examples if there are
very small lines-wise and in very big font. They should be easy to
understand asap, I find it very bad when a speaker shows a huge code
snippet and the audience gets lost trying to run they built-in Perl
interpreter. Well, it's easy for some people, but not for the majority of
the students.
When I had my first class back in TPC3, I've prepared 600 slides for a 3
hours talk. Well, it was my first time. And I managed to get through some
250 in 3 hours, and the rest of the 350 I made in 5 minutes... lessons,
lessons.
Good handouts is what rules. Most of my first talks I had this theme in
the evaluation forms: "The speaker's german accent was hard to understand
but the handouts were perfect".
Hence I first prepare handouts and then shrink them to the slides format
and not vice versa.
And sure I've a long way to perfect my practice of creating slides. They
suck.
> >On the technical presentations the speaker is what's important (and on
> >other presentation types as well). One can read slides/handouts at home
> >without coming to the conference at all.
>
> Yes that's true. And you are a great speaker. I think no one would doubt
> your enthusiasm about mod_perl when you talk. :)
Well, I'd humbly say that I'm far from being a great speaker. It was Doug
who tricked me to talk for 3 hours when I've hardly spoke English at that
time :)
The only thing that you are right about is the enthusiasm :) I wish I
could share some of it with other people... actually that's what I'm
trying to do.
I've taken a short course on giving presentation back when I was working
at Intel. And at the closing session we were supposed to give a 10 minutes
presentation. As usually I was busy with the guide, so I didn't have the
time to prepare any presentation. So I've grabbed a very nice Perl
presentation from the web I think it was:
http://www.domtools.com/svcs/training/perl-intro/ and I just came there
without ever reading it.
Well, my short presentation was so enthusiastic, that the normal course of
the class went broken, since people started to ask me questions about
Perl, which was obviously not planned by the teacher...
> Besides I believe even Tom Christiansen does the same thing (plain
> generated slides), so you certainly aren't alone in prefering to use
> generated slides as a speaker.
Pod::Html2PsPdf, pretty much has taken this mode from TomC's slides
generation package. Since my handouts were in POD already, I didn't want
to lose the formatting tags that I had there and use the text only mode
promived by TomC's package.
> >BTW, if you want to give the base level intro to mod_perl with nicer cool
> >flashy slides, I won't stand on your way. It's just that nobody wants to
> >do that. I won't mind talking about more advanced things for a change.
> Yeah there's the rub... It's time consuming to produce such things just as
> its time consuming to produce nice web sites.
>
> Anyway, onto a tech question. Is there a recognized format for the
> Pod2HTML2PS converter where I could take a vector image and then make
> the PS import that vector image? That's one issue I have with gif and
> jpeg is that they don't resize well, which is also a potential issue
> for slideshows.
You get the PS from HTML actually and not POD, since I'm using html2ps
http://www.tdb.uu.se/~jan/html2ps.html to drive the conversion into PS. So
it tries hard to scale images and do other cool things. It was a dead
project for awhile, but it seems that the developer (Jan Karrman) has
resurrected it and it's being developed again.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 02:27 PM 12/14/00 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> > > creating a set of tutorials for mongers and user groups? What's important
> > > is the information, not how fancy the background picture is.
> >
> > Thats where I think you're wrong. People care a *lot* about how things
> > look. Case in point with AxKit - I had an old site up at
> > xml.sergeant.org/axkit (I think its still there, I don't check). I didn't
> > get much interest, maybe 20 page views a day or so. When (again with
> > Robin's excellent designer help) I bit the bullet and redesigned at
> > axkit.org the number of hits rose dramatically the very day I released the
> > new design. And it wasn't just because of the domain name because AxKit
> > wasn't a well known name at the time. It was because it looked good (or at
> > least better - I'm still not happy with all that purple :-)
> >
> > The point being - we all despise marketing tactics of producing flashy web
> > sites with pretty pictures because we're geeks. But it works - it draws
> > people in. And provided you actually give them some good content to read
> > once you've drawn them in I don't see too many negative points about it.
>
>remember I was talking about slides, not sites.
Well, the nicer the slides the more they can be used outside of PM groups.
The ideal would be something that (A) Can be made to look nice and (B) Is
relatively brandable in case a conference has a particular look-and-feel
they prefer authors using.
Although I have to say I hate that practice. One year I gave a talk at
Sybase98 -- they were doing this silly World Cup theme a couple years back
and they forced all the slides throughout the conference to have a really
annoyingly conspicuous soccerball on a purple background. I'm serious, the
ball was massive. I digress.
However, I am willing to concede that as a first cut, fancy slides are
probably not worth it because the slides will change too often. Once v1 is
released, then someone can transcribe the slides to PPT (or maybe a tool
will exist by then) as a "stable release" if they want to (probably someone
like me.)
> > (and if I'm honest, I've always shuddered a bit seeing you use gv for
> > your slideshows - its just not a good slideshow application. Sorry
> > Stas :-)
>
>Well, that's what I have. I don't think that when you show bullets of text
>it matters if you use PP or gv. I'm not giving marketing presentation, but
>pure info comprised of text bullets and code snippets, gv does it just
>right. I could include pictures if I had any...
I think the slides are very good for your talks because they fit a style
you are comfortable with. But there are people who aren't so comfortable
with the plain look when giving a talk -- I am one of those people. I am
not talking about ruining a slideshow with annoying animations, just making
it look somewhat crisp with clean and mean graphics.
It's a preference, but as noted above, I am willing to concede that the
slides probably shouldn't be PPT at first cut because of the CVS issue as
well as making it easier to have as many people make changes as possible.
>On the technical presentations the speaker is what's important (and on
>other presentation types as well). One can read slides/handouts at home
>without coming to the conference at all.
Yes that's true. And you are a great speaker. I think no one would doubt
your enthusiasm about mod_perl when you talk. :)
But that doesn't mean that this style of slides will work for all people.
>Having nice slides requires a hell amount of time, which I unfortunately
>don't have. So please bear with me.
Sorry I didn't mean to bring it up as a sore point. Just wanted to point
out that this is an advantage of a PPT format vs generated slides. Just as
the advantage of generated slides is that, well, the slides actually exist
sooner!
Besides I believe even Tom Christiansen does the same thing (plain
generated slides), so you certainly aren't alone in prefering to use
generated slides as a speaker.
And I do believe that if we start off with PPT format, the lack of coherent
CVS support might make the project much slower than it should be.
>BTW, if you want to give the base level intro to mod_perl with nicer cool
>flashy slides, I won't stand on your way. It's just that nobody wants to
>do that. I won't mind talking about more advanced things for a change.
Yeah there's the rub... It's time consuming to produce such things just as
its time consuming to produce nice web sites.
Anyway, onto a tech question. Is there a recognized format for the
Pod2HTML2PS converter where I could take a vector image and then make the
PS import that vector image? That's one issue I have with gif and jpeg is
that they don't resize well, which is also a potential issue for slideshows.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> > creating a set of tutorials for mongers and user groups? What's important
> > is the information, not how fancy the background picture is.
>
> Thats where I think you're wrong. People care a *lot* about how things
> look. Case in point with AxKit - I had an old site up at
> xml.sergeant.org/axkit (I think its still there, I don't check). I didn't
> get much interest, maybe 20 page views a day or so. When (again with
> Robin's excellent designer help) I bit the bullet and redesigned at
> axkit.org the number of hits rose dramatically the very day I released the
> new design. And it wasn't just because of the domain name because AxKit
> wasn't a well known name at the time. It was because it looked good (or at
> least better - I'm still not happy with all that purple :-)
>
> The point being - we all despise marketing tactics of producing flashy web
> sites with pretty pictures because we're geeks. But it works - it draws
> people in. And provided you actually give them some good content to read
> once you've drawn them in I don't see too many negative points about it.
remember I was talking about slides, not sites.
> (and if I'm honest, I've always shuddered a bit seeing you use gv for
> your slideshows - its just not a good slideshow application. Sorry
> Stas :-)
Well, that's what I have. I don't think that when you show bullets of text
it matters if you use PP or gv. I'm not giving marketing presentation, but
pure info comprised of text bullets and code snippets, gv does it just
right. I could include pictures if I had any...
On the technical presentations the speaker is what's important (and on
other presentation types as well). One can read slides/handouts at home
without coming to the conference at all.
Having nice slides requires a hell amount of time, which I unfortunately
don't have. So please bear with me.
BTW, if you want to give the base level intro to mod_perl with nicer cool
flashy slides, I won't stand on your way. It's just that nobody wants to
do that. I won't mind talking about more advanced things for a change.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Stas Bekman wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> > >You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
> > >slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
> > >generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
> > >but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
> > >ghostview instead during my classes.
> >
> > Well, the thing is that a real slide format like PPT is a bit more
> > professional looking than PS/PDF as a format for slides. I'm not saying
> > your slides aren't professional looking, but PS/PDF generated slides seem a
> > bit plain.
>
> It doesn't look professional at all, so what? Aren't we talking about
> creating a set of tutorials for mongers and user groups? What's important
> is the information, not how fancy the background picture is.
Thats where I think you're wrong. People care a *lot* about how things
look. Case in point with AxKit - I had an old site up at
xml.sergeant.org/axkit (I think its still there, I don't check). I didn't
get much interest, maybe 20 page views a day or so. When (again with
Robin's excellent designer help) I bit the bullet and redesigned at
axkit.org the number of hits rose dramatically the very day I released the
new design. And it wasn't just because of the domain name because AxKit
wasn't a well known name at the time. It was because it looked good (or at
least better - I'm still not happy with all that purple :-)
The point being - we all despise marketing tactics of producing flashy web
sites with pretty pictures because we're geeks. But it works - it draws
people in. And provided you actually give them some good content to read
once you've drawn them in I don't see too many negative points about it.
(and if I'm honest, I've always shuddered a bit seeing you use gv for your
slideshows - its just not a good slideshow application. Sorry Stas :-)
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> >You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
> >slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
> >generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
> >but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
> >ghostview instead during my classes.
>
> Well, the thing is that a real slide format like PPT is a bit more
> professional looking than PS/PDF as a format for slides. I'm not saying
> your slides aren't professional looking, but PS/PDF generated slides seem a
> bit plain.
It doesn't look professional at all, so what? Aren't we talking about
creating a set of tutorials for mongers and user groups? What's important
is the information, not how fancy the background picture is.
> I don't think people care about the look of the slides at the conferences
> you speak at because they tend to be Open Source conferences, but if I took
> the same sort of slides to like SoftwareDevelopment2001 or some place a bit
> more commercial oriented, I think the attendees would feel the slides are a
> bit odd.
See above, there aren't intended for fancy demostrations.
> Anyway, I agree with POD or an intermediate format for just about
> everything else. If there was a way to auto generate true PPT slides, then
> I would be more of a proponent of POD as a format for the slides
> themselves. But even then, vector art is useful for diagrams, so I don't
> know how it would work to figure out how to get those into html2ps.
Easy, just include an image tag (<IMG ...>) and the diagrams are in. We
write our book in pod, and it works like magic. Of course you cannot
expect the animations...
you may want to check out: PPresenter from CPAN (works with Tk if I
remember correctly)
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> At 13:21 14/12/2000 +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> >At 01:55 AM 12/14/2000 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
> >>You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
> >>slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
> >>generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
> >>but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
> >>ghostview instead during my classes.
> >
> >Well, the thing is that a real slide format like PPT is a bit more
> >professional looking than PS/PDF as a format for slides. I'm not saying
> >your slides aren't professional looking, but PS/PDF generated slides seem a
> >bit plain.
>
> Has anyone tried playing with SVG slides ? They could look great and given
> templates could be fairly easy to generate.
I'm going to be experimenting with SVG slides for all my 2001 confs. All
served by AxKit, of course :-)
I'll keep you informed how it goes.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 13:21 14/12/2000 +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>At 01:55 AM 12/14/2000 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
>>You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
>>slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
>>generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
>>but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
>>ghostview instead during my classes.
>
>Well, the thing is that a real slide format like PPT is a bit more
>professional looking than PS/PDF as a format for slides. I'm not saying
>your slides aren't professional looking, but PS/PDF generated slides seem a
>bit plain.
Has anyone tried playing with SVG slides ? They could look great and given
templates could be fairly easy to generate.
-- robin b.
Forty two.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 01:55 AM 12/14/2000 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> > I guess part of the problem is that PPT is a binary file so if someone
> > checks out of CVS, and modifies slide 3 and another person modifies slide
> > 1, there's really no way of piecing it together again without being
> annoyed
> > by CVS update.
>
>POD or another text format is definitely a way to go if it's to be
>released as OSS and expected to be maintained by the community.
>
>You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
>slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
>generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
>but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
>ghostview instead during my classes.
>
>Of course you are welcome to send me patches that improve the slide mode
>of this module.
Well, the thing is that a real slide format like PPT is a bit more
professional looking than PS/PDF as a format for slides. I'm not saying
your slides aren't professional looking, but PS/PDF generated slides seem a
bit plain.
I don't think people care about the look of the slides at the conferences
you speak at because they tend to be Open Source conferences, but if I took
the same sort of slides to like SoftwareDevelopment2001 or some place a bit
more commercial oriented, I think the attendees would feel the slides are a
bit odd.
My hope is that the core slides themselves would not change often, so
keeping the slides in a core format like PPT seems OK. They would be broken
up into module.
Trainers could "brand" the slides by using different master templates
although it would be part of the license I think that they refer to the
origin of the slides.
Anyway, I agree with POD or an intermediate format for just about
everything else. If there was a way to auto generate true PPT slides, then
I would be more of a proponent of POD as a format for the slides
themselves. But even then, vector art is useful for diagrams, so I don't
know how it would work to figure out how to get those into html2ps.
I would be against PPT if StarOffice couldn't read and write those files.
But since there is a Linux alternative, I would prefer a slide format
stored in the format that slides are made for.
Unless of course, anyone has experience with StarOffice being particularly
bad at this. In which case, maybe we do have to start with POD or XML for
everytthing including the slides.
Later,
Gunther
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> I guess part of the problem is that PPT is a binary file so if someone
> checks out of CVS, and modifies slide 3 and another person modifies slide
> 1, there's really no way of piecing it together again without being annoyed
> by CVS update.
POD or another text format is definitely a way to go if it's to be
released as OSS and expected to be maintained by the community.
You can use my hackish Pod::HtmlPsPdf, which tries hard to help generate
slides. The only caveat it has now, is that the html2ps tool that it uses
generates not 100% complete PS, so when I run ps2pdf everything is cool,
but acroread has no option to rotate slides by 90% , so I have to use
ghostview instead during my classes.
Of course you are welcome to send me patches that improve the slide mode
of this module.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 11:08 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>J. J. Horner writes:
> > What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
> > distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
>
>Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
>responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
Whoops. I am actually very interested. I didn't post earlier for a couple
reasons.
1) I actually figured I would collect the replies I've seen on the subject
for a few days, think about all the responses (public and private) and kind
of summarize them this weekend.
2) I've been going through your slides and thinking about how to turn a
"monolithic" powerpoint into something that people can act upon
collaboratively and through CVS.
I guess part of the problem is that PPT is a binary file so if someone
checks out of CVS, and modifies slide 3 and another person modifies slide
1, there's really no way of piecing it together again without being annoyed
by CVS update.
Another mechanism would be to just have a couple people "own" each day of
slides and take comments from the community to put them in those slides.
PPT is definintely an easier format to code slides in than HTML as I
suggested earlier would be easier from a CVS perspective. But it's just not
CVS friendly.
Anyway, it looks like it is a well thought out progenitor to an open source
"hands on" tutorial. And what it did was that it started me introspecting
on the logistics of what it will really take to do this as open source and
how it could be split into chunks of work.
For example, you mentioned that suggested teaching notes should be attached
to each slide. Maybe it would make sense for the slides to stay fairly
unchanging but the teaching notes, rather than using PPT notes, should be
separate POD files that document each slide. So day1-slide1.pod (Although
this would not stand up very well if a slide gets inserted in the mix!).
Anyway, I hope posting some of these ideas about that project assures you
I've definitely been interested and thinking about it. I was hoping to
rather post an initial proposal of how to turn 1 PPT slidebase into an open
source project first and allow discussion around that rather than just open
up all these questions.
But perhaps it's better to just open up the questions first (in the open
source way).
Later,
Gunther
>If nobody's interested in increasing the number of mod_perl
>programmers through tutorials, then the only other option I can think
>of is strategically-placed success stories.
>
>I know that perl.oreilly.com is making a point of collecting Perl
>success stories and is always hungry for more. They won't convert
>the unwashed there, though.
>
>It'd sure be nice to have a WebTechniques special issue on mod_perl.
>Hint, hint, Randal :-)
>
>Nat
__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@extropia.com)
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Ken <ma...@creason.com>.
I am also interested in mod_perl tutorials. If someone is taking
names and email addresses, add mine.
Make it Ken Creason, mod_perl@creason.com
Thanks,
_Ken
Napa Valley Linux Users Group
Napa Valley Perl Mongers
At 01:41 PM 12/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 11:08:44AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>> J. J. Horner writes:
>> > What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
>> > distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
>>
>> Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
>> responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
>>
>
>I'm interested. Send me a link, or tell me more information.
>
>If it is going to cost me, it will have to wait until after Christmas.
>My Christmas budge was depleted when I bought a new laptop, a new server,
>and a french horn.
>
>JJ
>--
>J. J. Horner
>jjhorner@bellsouth.net
>
>Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
>
Re: [OT] Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 23:03 13/12/2000 -0500, Drew Taylor wrote:
>> That's all too true. For certain Network Solutions have a service that
>> warns some people that have paid (a lot) when someone checks an address
>> that doesn't exist yet. They offered it to one of the companies I worked
>> for once so I know for sure.
>
>Why does this not surprise me? Was it before or after Verisign bought them?
Before, but I don't think that it's going to change much.
>Well, I have registered (through an OpenSRS reseller I might add)
>modperlnews.com and .org. If anyone is interested in using them, let me know
>and I can get the DNS taken care of.
That's really cool :)
-- robin b.
James Joyce -- an essentially private man who wished his total indifference
to public notice to be universally recognized. -- Tom Stoppard
Re: [OT] Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Drew Taylor wrote:
> > This doesn't mean that modperlnew will be
> > taken within hours but one should be very careful when using registrars'
> > whois/dns check tools. If you could want it, buy it immediately. Maybe some
> > registrars are not that kind of bandits, but it's hard to know. When the
> > revolution comes, we should probably hang most of those nic people ;)
>
> Well, I have registered (through an OpenSRS reseller I might add)
> modperlnews.com and .org. If anyone is interested in using them, let me know
> and I can get the DNS taken care of.
>
> Matt, are you interested? If not, maybe I'll start my own advocacy site. :-P
I'm quite happy for people to point other domain names at take23.org, the
IP address is 194.70.26.133. Just let me know though because its a name
based vhost system so I have to hack httpd.conf too.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: [OT] Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Drew Taylor <dr...@openair.com>.
Robin Berjon wrote:
>
> At 23:31 13/12/2000 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
> >> A quick check of nsiregistry.com shows that modperlnews.(com|org|net)
> are all
> >> available.
> >
> >Too bad for you/us. You can be sure that when you will go to register any
> >of the above they will be all taken by a reseller. I've mentioned a few
> >times on this list that one should do atomic buys (tm). If you check and
> >don't buy in the same assembly opcode, someone else snoops on your search
> >and will do it for you. The only way to get a domain nowadays is to
> >check-buy atomically. I have enough examples of people who were
> >burned. I've lost stas.com 2.5 years ago, because it took me 1 day to
> >decide that I want to spend $$ on it, well it was taken the next day...
>
> That's all too true. For certain Network Solutions have a service that
> warns some people that have paid (a lot) when someone checks an address
> that doesn't exist yet. They offered it to one of the companies I worked
> for once so I know for sure.
Why does this not surprise me? Was it before or after Verisign bought them?
> This doesn't mean that modperlnew will be
> taken within hours but one should be very careful when using registrars'
> whois/dns check tools. If you could want it, buy it immediately. Maybe some
> registrars are not that kind of bandits, but it's hard to know. When the
> revolution comes, we should probably hang most of those nic people ;)
Well, I have registered (through an OpenSRS reseller I might add)
modperlnews.com and .org. If anyone is interested in using them, let me know
and I can get the DNS taken care of.
Matt, are you interested? If not, maybe I'll start my own advocacy site. :-P
--
Drew Taylor
Software Engineer
OpenAir.com - Making Business a Breeze!
Open a free account today at www.openair.com
[OT] Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 23:31 13/12/2000 +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
>> A quick check of nsiregistry.com shows that modperlnews.(com|org|net)
are all
>> available.
>
>Too bad for you/us. You can be sure that when you will go to register any
>of the above they will be all taken by a reseller. I've mentioned a few
>times on this list that one should do atomic buys (tm). If you check and
>don't buy in the same assembly opcode, someone else snoops on your search
>and will do it for you. The only way to get a domain nowadays is to
>check-buy atomically. I have enough examples of people who were
>burned. I've lost stas.com 2.5 years ago, because it took me 1 day to
>decide that I want to spend $$ on it, well it was taken the next day...
That's all too true. For certain Network Solutions have a service that
warns some people that have paid (a lot) when someone checks an address
that doesn't exist yet. They offered it to one of the companies I worked
for once so I know for sure. This doesn't mean that modperlnew will be
taken within hours but one should be very careful when using registrars'
whois/dns check tools. If you could want it, buy it immediately. Maybe some
registrars are not that kind of bandits, but it's hard to know. When the
revolution comes, we should probably hang most of those nic people ;)
-- robin b.
Immature poets imitate, mature poets steal. -- T.S. Eliot
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Drew Taylor wrote:
> Dave Kaufman wrote:
> >
> > i have to say i really like the look and feel of Matt's take23.org. (and by
> > the way, for those, like me, who can't seem to keep up with reading *every*
> > message on this list... it's take23.ORG. I went looking for "take23" and i
> > can attest that the cryptic but nicely designed take23.COM, has nothing at
> > all to do with mod_perl on it :-))
>
> I vaguely remember seeing mockups similar to take23.org as a proposed facelift
> for perl.apache.org. I really liked the design and always wondered why it
> never got used (apart from the manhours to implement the change :-)
There were two designs proposed (those who are on the modperl-site list
have seen both) one from Brian's friend and the other from Robin. None
went into production, till Matt has picked Robin's design, so it fact the
effort wasn't lost...
> > i for one would like to see take23.org become "the place" for people
> > deciding if mod_perl is for them, getting started with it, and keeping up
> > with the latest and greatest. i did turn my nose up at the banners at
> > first, but on second thought, i'm even more *thoroughly* sick of open-source
> > resource sites that are plain (unintesting, visually) and whose content is
> > stale due to a lackluster (volunteer) maintenance. so, if some ad-income
> > keeps take23 fresh and useful, i think i could be bothered to remember the
> > URL :-)
>
> A quick check of nsiregistry.com shows that modperlnews.(com|org|net) are all
> available.
Too bad for you/us. You can be sure that when you will go to register any
of the above they will be all taken by a reseller. I've mentioned a few
times on this list that one should do atomic buys (tm). If you check and
don't buy in the same assembly opcode, someone else snoops on your search
and will do it for you. The only way to get a domain nowadays is to
check-buy atomically. I have enough examples of people who were
burned. I've lost stas.com 2.5 years ago, because it took me 1 day to
decide that I want to spend $$ on it, well it was taken the next day...
> Those domains are definately a little easier to remember than take23.
> What are some other alternatives to take23.org that would be easier on
> the grey matter?
modperl-1.24-01.com or libapreq.com :)
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian moseley <bc...@maz.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> really notice or care. Most of the content is more or
> less static, at least it doesn't change all that often.
yah. i'm sure wml or it's like would work just as nicely for
managing the site. it's just, as everybody on this list
knows, a gigantic pain in the ass to apply a new look to a
large, disorganized sprawl of multiply-formatted OLD
documents.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 15:23 13/12/2000 -0800, brian moseley wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
>> I didn't mean to target you particularly there brian :)
>
>i know :)
Good, I didn't want any doubt on this :)
>another reason it never got off the ground is that it seemed
>to make a lot of sense to actually use mod_perl to serve the
>site, but from what i've heard, the powers that be on locus
>aren't interested in adding it.
I know. But what I thought at the time (and I think it still holds) was
that perl.apache.org doesn't need to be run under mod_perl. No one except
mod_perl addicts would really notice or care. Most of the content is more
or less static, at least it doesn't change all that often. The scheme I had
in mind was to have the content in some form and templates to make that
content look good, and a server located somewhere else that would commit
changes to perl.apache.org automatically when something changed in the
source. Using mod_perl there would help a lot anyway given that that site
is mirrored in many place and those places don't have mod_perl, or wouldn't
have it configured properly. If a feature really required something totally
dynamic, then I'm sure an external link wouldn't hurt anyone and there'd be
people to offer hosting for it. I would.
>we thought about moving perl.apache.org to rubel, but we
>never actually got around to it. ah well.
That would be cool, but it wouldn't solve the mirroring problem (unless we
killed mirroring of course).
>i'll reiterate a point i've made several times over the last
>year - it would make sense to retire perl.apache.org and
>build a couple new sites, one for developers and one for
>advocacy.
I totally agree with that, and that's one reason I think that take23.org is
a great idea. Afaik Baiju was all for naming one of the site modperl.org
back then so maybe with any luck he still is. I like take23 as a name, but
that's a modperl hacker's private joke. If modperl.org pointed there too,
it certainly wouldn't hurt.
-- robin b.
Change is inevitable except from a vending machine.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Dave Kaufman <dk...@nac.net>.
"Perrin Harkins" <pe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> I'm baffled by the insistence of everyone on this thread that a bunch of
> static pages like the ones on perl.apache.org should be served by
> mod_perl. Shall I show you all how to change Apache's headers? We can
> say we're running mod_perl/2000 for all the difference it will make.
well, my thoughts were in regards to more of a proposed site, that contained
a collection of tutorials (the thread subject?) maintained by various
(hopefully numerous) people, which originate in several formats; a site that
doubled as an advocacy site, and so would benefit from, say, some import and
authoring tools, some remote CVS access for updates, some user management...
in short, some mod_perl.
you're absolutely right that a bunch of static pages like the ones currently
found at perl.apache.org don't need mod_perl. they are static, hence the
problem. they don't need user management or remote authoring, because
maintaining the site falls to one or two otherise overworked volunteers, not
a community... hence the problem: plain, static, and infrequently updated
content doesnt really present much of a image, or do much for advocacy.
> I'm mostly kidding, but really it doesn't seem very important.
> Generating templated pages off-line is a much simpler (and therefore
> easier to build, maintain, mirror, scale, etc.) approach to this kind of
> site. It's not as if we need to take credit cards in the mod_perl store
> or something. (Although that would certainly help with the mod_perl bar
> tab at the next ApacheCon.)
that may be true; with the lack of interested folks brian notes volunteering
to help maintain perl.apache.org, what evidence is there to indicate there
would be some huge groundswell of experienced mod_perl tutorial-writers,
site maintainers, graphic designers or whatever volunteering and needing
source-forge-like scalability to run a new site at modperl.org, or a
retooled perl.apache.org?
i guess its something of a chiken-and-egg problem. which comes first, an
attractive and usable new site that mod_perl programmers will flock to get
accounts on, so that they can contribute self-published articles, reviews
and news? or the flock needed to build such a site? my crystal ball clouds
over...
-dave
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Perrin Harkins <pe...@primenet.com>.
Andrew Ho wrote:
> someone else already mentioned, it also doesn't use mod_perl itself. :)
I'm baffled by the insistence of everyone on this thread that a bunch of
static pages like the ones on perl.apache.org should be served by
mod_perl. Shall I show you all how to change Apache's headers? We can
say we're running mod_perl/2000 for all the difference it will make.
I'm mostly kidding, but really it doesn't seem very important.
Generating templated pages off-line is a much simpler (and therefore
easier to build, maintain, mirror, scale, etc.) approach to this kind of
site. It's not as if we need to take credit cards in the mod_perl store
or something. (Although that would certainly help with the mod_perl bar
tab at the next ApacheCon.)
- Perrin
(And, no, I don't think we need to have a page running a guestbook or
calculator on the site to demonstrate the power of mod_perl. If people
need to see a dynamic app so badly, let them click through to imdb.com.
That site rocks.)
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Andrew Ho wrote:
> I'm thinking somebody should probably take it upon themselves to spearhead
> this effort, and perhaps set up another list for potential volunteers to
> coordinate. Lots of open source projects are short on useful documentation
Perl Mongers can host, mirror, or otherwise support whomever gets blessed
as the caretaker of the canonical mod_perl site. all the normal shell
things are available and we're setting up a squid caching server and the
normal CVS things to go along with that. anything else that is needed can
be arranged.
how fast we can do this is only limited by how much stuff we can move into
some new racks before everyone takes off for the holidays ;)
--
brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>
Director of Technology, Smith Renaud, Inc.
875 Avenue of the Americas, 2510, New York, NY 10001
V: (212) 239-8985
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Andrew Ho <an...@tellme.com>.
Hello,
Just wanted to add to this thread as to the suggestion for a modperl.org.
I agree that this would help mod_perl programmers as a whole. The
"official" mod_perl site is sort of sparse, sort of slow, and on the whole
doesn't inspire confidence in mod_perl as an industrial strength tool. As
someone else already mentioned, it also doesn't use mod_perl itself. :)
I'm thinking somebody should probably take it upon themselves to spearhead
this effort, and perhaps set up another list for potential volunteers to
coordinate. Lots of open source projects are short on useful documentation
and repositories, and having an archive of docs, modules, and real-world
tips sounds like a good idea for mod_perl.
I'd be myself glad to help in any way possible; I'm not too bad of a
mod_perl programmer and don't mind getting my hands dirty with XHTML or
template systems or whatnot.
Humbly,
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Ho http://www.tellme.com/ andrew@tellme.com
Engineer info@tellme.com Voice 650-930-9062
Tellme Networks, Inc. 1-800-555-TELL Fax 650-930-9101
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Dave Kaufman <dk...@nac.net>.
"Ed Park" <ep...@athenahealth.com> wrote:
>
> I really like the look of the take23 site as well, and I would be happy as
a
> clam if we could get modperl.org. I'd even be willing to chip in some
> (money/time/effort) to see whether we could get modperl.org.
ok, money is tight and time is short but here's a shred of effort:
modperl.org is registered to Baiju Thakkar <ba...@linuxmonth.com>, "the
O'Reilly Network's Bureau Chief for Linux, and the founder of linuxmonth.com
and perlmonth.com", according to: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/37 so we
might presume that Mr. Thakkar could be willing to cooperate with an
organized effort to maintain content on the domain.
like i said, i'm kinda new, but from brian's and Robin's remarks, it seems
that committment (and followup) is a bit in short supply. not surprising,
tho. we all have a living to make. plus I've found that most programmers
don't like to "do html" (in quantity), preferring instead to write programs
that do (and coincidentally i've also found that graphic designers who live
in Phoshop don't like to "do" too much html either, resulting in a labor
shortage of "html technologists"), and as a result hard-technology oriented
sites like perl.apache.org tend to look, well.... like perl.apache.org...
so, towards organizing an effort to propose to Mr. Thakkar for our grand
plans to populate his domain name with relevent, stylish and fresh
mod_perlage, i'm glad to do whatever i can to help. i personally happen to
*like* doing big sites full of complicated xhtml-compliant cross-browser
html (please don't tell anyone, tho :-)) ...of course i'm not masochistic
and *am* really lazy too, so i prefer to design few and deploy many using
templates, but (a great looking useful) modperl.org would be a site i could
definitely sink my teeth into.
if that means day to day floor-sweeping, email-answering or that brian
mail-bombs me all his, (ahem) "...much random content laying around the
perl.apache.org site, in so many random formats" and i take on the task of
reformatting it to some digestable flavor of xml, "i'm down with it" (...a
term which, my daughter tells me, means what "i'm up to it" used to mean
<g>)
> More than that, though, I think that I would really like to see take23 in
> large measure replace the current perl.apache.org. I remember the first
time
> I looked at perl.apache.org, it was not at all clear to me that I could
> build a fast database-backed web application using mod_perl.
>
[all mention of heretic php technologies snipped]
well, hmmm. i won't presume to suggest that Matt rename take23.org (again)
to modperl.org (tho that certainly would be a slam dunk) but he has done a
lot of fine work combining plentiful content with great form, and if it
stays fresh, such a site *will* replace perl.apache.org (in traffic and
popularity, even if not in name).
> Anyways, those are my own biases. The final bias is that the advocacy site
> should be hosted someplace _fast_; one of the reasons I initially avoided
> PHP was that their _site_ was dog slow, and I associated that with PHP
being
> dog slow. Anyways, take23 is very fast for now.
i agree. the site must be hosted professionally or not at all. having a
slow, unstable or buggy advocacy site would be have of a rather immediate
and opposite effect to advocating mod_perl and wining "mindshare". of
course this is where cash is the only cure. (perhaps some secret corporate
benefactor will bless us with colocated hosting in a nice big multi-homed
datacenter).
and, IMO an advocacy site really MUST run on mod_perl, mustn't it? i mean
really, how many people would believe Apache was a great webserver if
apache.org was hosted on an IIS server?
-dave
RE: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Ed Park wrote:
> > Anyways, take23 is very fast for now.
> Don't expect that to last too long - its behind a 64Kb leased line. But
> its fast because it delivers everything gzipped - so there's an argument
> for gzipped content.
wanna use my T3? ;)
--
brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>
Director of Technology, Smith Renaud, Inc.
875 Avenue of the Americas, 2510, New York, NY 10001
V: (212) 239-8985
RE: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Ed Park wrote:
> Anyways, take23 is very fast for now.
Don't expect that to last too long - its behind a 64Kb leased line. But
its fast because it delivers everything gzipped - so there's an argument
for gzipped content.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
RE: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Ed Park <ep...@athenahealth.com>.
My two cents--
I really like the look of the take23 site as well, and I would be happy as a
clam if we could get modperl.org. I'd even be willing to chip in some
(money/time/effort) to see whether we could get modperl.org.
More than that, though, I think that I would really like to see take23 in
large measure replace the current perl.apache.org. I remember the first time
I looked at perl.apache.org, it was not at all clear to me that I could
build a fast database-backed web application using mod_perl. In contrast,
when you click on PHP from www.apache.org, you are taken directly to a site
that gives you the sense that there is a strong, vibrant community around
php. (BTW, I also like the look and feel of take23 significantly more than
php).
Anyways, those are my own biases. The final bias is that the advocacy site
should be hosted someplace _fast_; one of the reasons I initially avoided
PHP was that their _site_ was dog slow, and I associated that with PHP being
dog slow. Anyways, take23 is very fast for now.
cheers,
Ed
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian moseley <bc...@maz.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> I didn't mean to target you particularly there brian :)
i know :)
> But indeed I bumped into the same problem. Back then my
> todo list included writing Pod::SAX and pod2sax (a pod
> translator that woudl generate SAX events) and an XML
> publishing tool, which would have taken care of turning
> the site into whatever layout might have been needed. Of
> course, in the meantime Matt came up with AxKit and
> something that does more or less what I wanted to do
> with Pod::SAX (neither take care of *all* the
> requirements that I set for myself, but then I didn't
> release anything and it's probably much better to have a
> good part of it than all of it :).
another reason it never got off the ground is that it seemed
to make a lot of sense to actually use mod_perl to serve the
site, but from what i've heard, the powers that be on locus
aren't interested in adding it. checkpoint:
bcm@rubel:~ > HEAD http://perl.apache.org
200 OK
Connection: close
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:17:18 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.15-dev (Unix) tomcat/1.0
Content-Type: text/html
Client-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:19:23 GMT
Client-Peer: 63.211.145.10:80
we thought about moving perl.apache.org to rubel, but we
never actually got around to it. ah well.
i'll reiterate a point i've made several times over the last
year - it would make sense to retire perl.apache.org and
build a couple new sites, one for developers and one for
advocacy. take23 seems to fill the latter role well, altho
i'd much rather see it named modperl.org, and the former
could well benefit from being on sourceforge (if they ever
fix their damn login problems, jeez).
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> >sure would be nice if a lot of that content made its way to
> >take23 in a format that can be more easily managed.
>
> I think Matt requires some XML format (I'd guess DocBook) for take23.
> However, translating from well-written pod to DocBook shouldn't be too hard
> (especially as I think that Matt's Pod::XML takes care of a lot of that; a
> patched Pod::DocBook will do too).
The XML produced from Pod::XML is supported directly, and anything else is
fairly easy to add, provided its XML. Simplified XHTML is also fine (and I
can generate that with pyx from HTML if needed).
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 14:44 13/12/2000 -0800, brian moseley wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
>> Other people seemed to be interested and said they'd
>> take care of doing something but like me I guess they
>> got flooded by work stuff. That's certainly what
>> happened to me :/
>
>that, and the fact that there is so much random content
>laying around the perl.apache.org site, in so many random
>formats. the amount of work it was going to take to retrofit
>all that junk pushed it to the bottom of my priority list.
I didn't mean to target you particularly there brian :) But indeed I bumped
into the same problem. Back then my todo list included writing Pod::SAX and
pod2sax (a pod translator that woudl generate SAX events) and an XML
publishing tool, which would have taken care of turning the site into
whatever layout might have been needed. Of course, in the meantime Matt
came up with AxKit and something that does more or less what I wanted to do
with Pod::SAX (neither take care of *all* the requirements that I set for
myself, but then I didn't release anything and it's probably much better to
have a good part of it than all of it :).
>sure would be nice if a lot of that content made its way to
>take23 in a format that can be more easily managed.
I think Matt requires some XML format (I'd guess DocBook) for take23.
However, translating from well-written pod to DocBook shouldn't be too hard
(especially as I think that Matt's Pod::XML takes care of a lot of that; a
patched Pod::DocBook will do too).
-- robin b.
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention,
with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian moseley <bc...@maz.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> Other people seemed to be interested and said they'd
> take care of doing something but like me I guess they
> got flooded by work stuff. That's certainly what
> happened to me :/
that, and the fact that there is so much random content
laying around the perl.apache.org site, in so many random
formats. the amount of work it was going to take to retrofit
all that junk pushed it to the bottom of my priority list.
sure would be nice if a lot of that content made its way to
take23 in a format that can be more easily managed.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 16:41 13/12/2000 -0500, Drew Taylor wrote:
>I vaguely remember seeing mockups similar to take23.org as a proposed facelift
>for perl.apache.org. I really liked the design and always wondered why it
>never got used (apart from the manhours to implement the change :-)
That's in part my fault. I'm the one who submitted the original design. I
knew that if I didn't push this to the end chances were it wouldn't see the
light of day. Other people seemed to be interested and said they'd take
care of doing something but like me I guess they got flooded by work stuff.
That's certainly what happened to me :/ Anyway, I'm glad that design draft
eventually got used for something thanks to Matt :) My idea of retirement
is slowly starting to be that mythical time when I'll have all the time I
want to publish all those half finished open source things that I have
lying in small bits and pieces on various hard drives ;-)
>A quick check of nsiregistry.com shows that modperlnews.(com|org|net) are all
>available. Those domains are definately a little easier to remember than
>take23. What are some other alternatives to take23.org that would be easier on
>the grey matter?
I quite like the name myself. Somehow my messages seem to take ages to
reach this list but I revealed the meaning of the site a few hours ago
(sorry Matt, I got your message about wanting to keep it truly secret only
afterward). Apparently a few people did get it though.
-- robin b.
By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to
suspect Hungry.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Drew Taylor <dr...@openair.com>.
Dave Kaufman wrote:
>
> i have to say i really like the look and feel of Matt's take23.org. (and by
> the way, for those, like me, who can't seem to keep up with reading *every*
> message on this list... it's take23.ORG. I went looking for "take23" and i
> can attest that the cryptic but nicely designed take23.COM, has nothing at
> all to do with mod_perl on it :-))
I vaguely remember seeing mockups similar to take23.org as a proposed facelift
for perl.apache.org. I really liked the design and always wondered why it
never got used (apart from the manhours to implement the change :-)
> i for one would like to see take23.org become "the place" for people
> deciding if mod_perl is for them, getting started with it, and keeping up
> with the latest and greatest. i did turn my nose up at the banners at
> first, but on second thought, i'm even more *thoroughly* sick of open-source
> resource sites that are plain (unintesting, visually) and whose content is
> stale due to a lackluster (volunteer) maintenance. so, if some ad-income
> keeps take23 fresh and useful, i think i could be bothered to remember the
> URL :-)
A quick check of nsiregistry.com shows that modperlnews.(com|org|net) are all
available. Those domains are definately a little easier to remember than
take23. What are some other alternatives to take23.org that would be easier on
the grey matter?
--
Drew Taylor
Software Engineer
OpenAir.com - Making Business a Breeze!
Open a free account today at www.openair.com
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Dave Kaufman wrote:
> i have to say i really like the look and feel of Matt's take23.org.
Knowing how humble Robin is I have to say that original it was designed by
Robin Berjon's Knowscape.com designers :) So if you need a good designer
you know now where to find one... they even do mod_perl consulting :)
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Dave Kaufman <dk...@nac.net>.
"Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "Matt" == Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> writes:
>
> Matt> I'd love to get all of these onto take23, but of course that
requires some
> Matt> sort of effort from someone to gather them together and put together
a web
> Matt> page (in XML!). Volunteers?
>
> They really also belong on perl.apache.org, unless take23 is supposed
> to be taking over that responsibility, or unless take23 will have a
> VERY PROMINENT link on perl.apache.org.
i have to say i really like the look and feel of Matt's take23.org. (and by
the way, for those, like me, who can't seem to keep up with reading *every*
message on this list... it's take23.ORG. I went looking for "take23" and i
can attest that the cryptic but nicely designed take23.COM, has nothing at
all to do with mod_perl on it :-))
i for one would like to see take23.org become "the place" for people
deciding if mod_perl is for them, getting started with it, and keeping up
with the latest and greatest. i did turn my nose up at the banners at
first, but on second thought, i'm even more *thoroughly* sick of open-source
resource sites that are plain (unintesting, visually) and whose content is
stale due to a lackluster (volunteer) maintenance. so, if some ad-income
keeps take23 fresh and useful, i think i could be bothered to remember the
URL :-)
> "take23" doesn't mean anything for me with respect to "mod_perl" by
> the way. Is there a secret handshake^Wmnemonic that I can remember
> the name of that website? perl.apache.org was easy to remember.
well, i think it just takes some getting used to. good names (for
businesses, products, extraction and reporting languages) all tend to seem
arbitrary, the first time you hear them. but the more arbitrary they are
the better they are associated with *your* thing, in the long run (assuming
the "branding" is successful). take "pepsi" for instance. a more arbitrary
and meaningless word would be hard to find, and yet... a brand that's
extrordinary well associated with a particular company's cola (that is, btw,
otherwise indistinguishable form all other companys' colas).
i'm only a relatively recent initiate to mod_perl, and still somewhat
OS-challenged (i.e. windows user) but i think that a large part of the need
for advocacy & mindshare gains is due to a plain-jane hardcore techie image
that mod_perl has, and that's probably due to the way it's currently
presented on the web (at least it was, for me, and i consider myself a
semi-hardcore techie).
XML is a good contrast. XML is a very techie-only technology, also pretty
hardcore and yet, XML has an extremely sexy web image. corporations can't
wait to adopt it. they don't even know what it IS, or what it's FOR, and
they still want it :-) why?
just take a look at
xml.org
xml.com
xslt.com
xmlsoftware.com
and even the somewhat annoying xmlresources.com
all include advocacy and are carefully targeted toward new users.
heck, even xml.apache.org seems to the first time visitor quite a bit
more polished and complete than www.apache.org (OR perl.apache.org, for
that matter...)
and contrast the first-impressions these sites make with impression made on
the merly mod_perl curious masses visiting:
modperl.com (about a book, not webserver software)
modperl.org (a non-page placeholder)
modperl.net (this page !~/(mod)|(perl)/)
now, i understand that THE place for mod perl *is* perl.apache.org, but it's
not all that easy to guess (for those who've merely heard that "mod perl" is
something to look into). the easy-to-guess sites above should take the
uninitiated by the hand, inform them what the technology is all about, where
it stands, who's using it, and guide them down the path to becoming another
advocate! right?
i hope no one takes offense at this message, because i'm certainly not
trying to belittle the efforts of the webmaster(s) of perl.apache.org
(whomever they may be) and other current modperl resource sites, as i'm sure
they're all heroic and selfless champions for the cause! but as much as i
dread maketing, sometimes it is a necessary evil...
and i'd certainly be willing to contribute to the efforts of updating and
maintaining take23.org, modperl.* and other advocacy sites along these lines
(although my skills are more along the lines of CGI and MySQL, i don't mind
doing site architecture, or navigation html and graphics for a good cause).
btw, what's exactly is the deal with modperl.org? perhaps the first order
of bu$iness might be acquiring this domain name (or the right to maintain
the content on it) from it's current owner?
-dave
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
At 11:17 13/12/2000 -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>"take23" doesn't mean anything for me with respect to "mod_perl" by
>the way. Is there a secret handshake^Wmnemonic that I can remember
>the name of that website? perl.apache.org was easy to remember.
Spend a few hours trying to figure out how to write a custom directive
through mod_perl (eagle chap 8 iirc).
-- robin b.
Oops. My Brain just hit a bad sector.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>> It will always be take23, that I can assure you of. I'm a geek, and its a
>> geeky name, and I'm very happy with it. The other domain names pointing at
>> it or redirecting to it would be most welcome, but I'm not yet considering
>> another rename.
Stas> Hmm, doesn't look like most of the folks here agree with you. But since it
Stas> was your initiative you are the king.
I saw myself as the only one who *didn't* like it. I just posted so
often that maybe you thought I was multiple people. :)
But I'm cool with the name as long as there's a prominent link of "why
'take23'?" somewhere up front, so that others can learn why as well.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> > >
> > > > >Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
> > > > >fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
> > > >
> > > > There already is, I think Stas added it. It's under "News and Resources for
> > > > the mod_perl world" in the toc.
> > >
> > > Hmm, Stas can you make this say "Take23: News and ..." - that would help
> > > get the name known.
> >
> > I sure can, but in the light of the latest suggestion of yet another
> > rename, may be we should wait a bit?
>
> It will always be take23, that I can assure you of. I'm a geek, and its a
> geeky name, and I'm very happy with it. The other domain names pointing at
> it or redirecting to it would be most welcome, but I'm not yet considering
> another rename.
Hmm, doesn't look like most of the folks here agree with you. But since it
was your initiative you are the king.
It's done.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Stas Bekman wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> >
> > > >Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
> > > >fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
> > >
> > > There already is, I think Stas added it. It's under "News and Resources for
> > > the mod_perl world" in the toc.
> >
> > Hmm, Stas can you make this say "Take23: News and ..." - that would help
> > get the name known.
>
> I sure can, but in the light of the latest suggestion of yet another
> rename, may be we should wait a bit?
It will always be take23, that I can assure you of. I'm a geek, and its a
geeky name, and I'm very happy with it. The other domain names pointing at
it or redirecting to it would be most welcome, but I'm not yet considering
another rename.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
>
> > >Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
> > >fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
> >
> > There already is, I think Stas added it. It's under "News and Resources for
> > the mod_perl world" in the toc.
>
> Hmm, Stas can you make this say "Take23: News and ..." - that would help
> get the name known.
I sure can, but in the light of the latest suggestion of yet another
rename, may be we should wait a bit?
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote:
> >Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
> >fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
>
> There already is, I think Stas added it. It's under "News and Resources for
> the mod_perl world" in the toc.
Hmm, Stas can you make this say "Take23: News and ..." - that would help
get the name known.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
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Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
>Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
>fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
There already is, I think Stas added it. It's under "News and Resources for
the mod_perl world" in the toc.
>> If you want traffic on your site, pick a way for people to remember it
>> when they walk into an internet cafe or when they are talking to
>> others in the hall. Clever secret names suck, until you're the first
>> hit in google. :)
>
>Suggestions for ways to help that would be most appreciated.
You can get into dmoz by submitting your site to the editor of the
appropriate section and that will already get you into google as it uses
it. Otherwise, well basically the best way to get google to list you well
is to have a lot of people link to you with their sites contaning
perl/mod_perl/website building info (and to submit all those sites + yours
to google so that it'll visit them).
-- robin b.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Thomas von Elling Skifter Eibner <th...@io.stderr.net>.
On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 10:26:49PM +0100, Stas Bekman wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>
> > Stas Bekman writes:
> > > It's already taken by the eagle book. And since the URL is hardcoded in
> > > the book, you cannot change this.
> >
> > True, but you can prominently place a pointer to Eagle book's content
> > on the new modperl.com homepage.
>
> Anyway, it's Doug/Lincoln's call :)
>
> What about modperl.net
Taken, and points to some InfoRelay's web site.
> > > modperl.org is taken by someone else, and it's empty...
> >
> > Baiju!
>
> Oh, yeah, Baiju! Baiju, give us back the .org :) :) You have too many cool
> domains: perlmonth.com, linuxmonth.com... I wonder whether you have
> reserved the modperlmonth.com too :)
Didn't he once say that it could be used for modperl advocacy site? *digging back in the archives*
There it was: it's from around 12/03/1999; Stas posted a message where he's saying that Baiju suggested a layout of modperl.org. <http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/182/1999/12/0/2944473/>
Now I'm just in doubt wheter I actually saw a message where Baiju was saying he'd donate the domain or it was just Stas' message I remembered.
On a sidenote, I have modperl.dk and it's currently just redirecting to http://perl.apache.org/
--
Thomas Eibner
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Stas Bekman writes:
> > It's already taken by the eagle book. And since the URL is hardcoded in
> > the book, you cannot change this.
>
> True, but you can prominently place a pointer to Eagle book's content
> on the new modperl.com homepage.
Anyway, it's Doug/Lincoln's call :)
What about modperl.net?
> > modperl.org is taken by someone else, and it's empty...
>
> Baiju!
Oh, yeah, Baiju! Baiju, give us back the .org :) :) You have too many cool
domains: perlmonth.com, linuxmonth.com... I wonder whether you have
reserved the modperlmonth.com too :)
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
Stas Bekman writes:
> It's already taken by the eagle book. And since the URL is hardcoded in
> the book, you cannot change this.
True, but you can prominently place a pointer to Eagle book's content
on the new modperl.com homepage.
> modperl.org is taken by someone else, and it's empty...
Baiju!
Nat
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
> Stas Bekman wrote:
> > Our book's site is modperlbook.org... how original :)
>
> Stas, do you have a premilinary table of contents
> already and could you please post it there?
Not yet, we are still contemplating on some chapters/ideas. But the guide
is the core of the book, so you get the idea. It's mostly a re-organized,
re-written, re-shaped, improved, extended guide :)
The moment we will get it finalized we will definitely post it there.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Alexander Farber (EED)" <ee...@eed.ericsson.se>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
> Our book's site is modperlbook.org... how original :)
Stas, do you have a premilinary table of contents
already and could you please post it there?
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Matt Sergeant writes:
> > Basically I see the distinction as news/community vs the official home
> > page. The same as php3.org vs phpbuilder.
>
> I think modperl.com should be the webpage that shows modperl to be an
> active vibrant technology. In other words, I think take23 should
> really be on modperl.com. The domain name is the killer.
It's already taken by the eagle book. And since the URL is hardcoded in
the book, you cannot change this.
Our book's site is modperlbook.org... how original :)
modperl.org is taken by someone else, and it's empty...
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
Matt Sergeant writes:
> Basically I see the distinction as news/community vs the official home
> page. The same as php3.org vs phpbuilder.
I think modperl.com should be the webpage that shows modperl to be an
active vibrant technology. In other words, I think take23 should
really be on modperl.com. The domain name is the killer.
Nat
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>.
On 13 Dec 2000, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> And admittedly, the perl.org/pm.org/perl.com split is never clear to
> most visitors (or even to the people who maintain it). I'm just
> afraid of another arbitrary demarcation like this.
i assume you mean the www hosts since you are talking about web sites.
the domains themselves do a lto more than jsut web thingys.
it's very clear to me and i think it is clear to mjd, and i wouldn't say
that it is unclear to most visitors. some visitors will always be
confused about a website no matter what it is or how much you tell them
about it. :)
the trouble is what people think a particular website should do and what
it actually does.
--
brian d foy <br...@smithrenaud.com>
Director of Technology, Smith Renaud, Inc.
875 Avenue of the Americas, 2510, New York, NY 10001
V: (212) 239-8985
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> writes:
Matt> Suggestions for ways to help that would be most appreciated.
Make a link on the left on the home page "why the name take23?".
Then clever people like me can read it, and remember the name
much better.
/me scuffles off to register no-args.org now... :)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On 13 Dec 2000, (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
> Well, then, I'd ask for the perl.apache.org folks to "bless" the
> take23.org site by linking to it prominently, along with a context
> so that visitors know why some things are on perl.apache.org and
> others are on take23.org.
Well Doug likes the site, and I'd assume someone is going to add a link
fairly shortly to perl.apache.org.
Basically I see the distinction as news/community vs the official home
page. The same as php3.org vs phpbuilder.
> If you want traffic on your site, pick a way for people to remember it
> when they walk into an internet cafe or when they are talking to
> others in the hall. Clever secret names suck, until you're the first
> hit in google. :)
Suggestions for ways to help that would be most appreciated.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> writes:
Matt> On 13 Dec 2000, (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
>> They really also belong on perl.apache.org, unless take23 is supposed
>> to be taking over that responsibility, or unless take23 will have a
>> VERY PROMINENT link on perl.apache.org.
Matt> I wouldn't say "taken over" but I can say you'll see more frequent updates
Matt> on take23, and it'll always be prettier :-)
Well, then, I'd ask for the perl.apache.org folks to "bless" the
take23.org site by linking to it prominently, along with a context
so that visitors know why some things are on perl.apache.org and
others are on take23.org.
And admittedly, the perl.org/pm.org/perl.com split is never clear to
most visitors (or even to the people who maintain it). I'm just
afraid of another arbitrary demarcation like this.
Matt> It will always be at modperl.sergeant.org too, but there's no secret
Matt> mnemonic. Well there is a connection to mod_perl (I wouldn't have just
Matt> plucked a name out of mid air), but I'm not going to just reveal it, even
Matt> though someone has already figured it out. Maybe one day it will become an
Matt> FAQ.
Matt> For now, try a bookmark.
That doesn't help me remember it when I'm on a strange browser, or
trying to tell some people in front of a room. But now that I know
the secret mnemonic, it'll help.
If you want traffic on your site, pick a way for people to remember it
when they walk into an internet cafe or when they are talking to
others in the hall. Clever secret names suck, until you're the first
hit in google. :)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2000, (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
>
> > They really also belong on perl.apache.org, unless take23 is supposed
> > to be taking over that responsibility, or unless take23 will have a
> > VERY PROMINENT link on perl.apache.org.
>
> I wouldn't say "taken over" but I can say you'll see more frequent updates
> on take23, and it'll always be prettier :-)
Come'n guys, do you read cvs commits? I've linked to take23 from
perl.apache.org on the same day the site was announced -- it's the second
link in the TOC:
Download
=> News and Resources for the mod_perl world
Perl Apache Modules
Help with Perl Apache Modules Wanted
Books and Documentation
....
Definitely one shouldn't discourage Matt from doing what he's doing, since
people promised to take over perl.apache.org for years, and nobody
committed to complete even something was started. May be Matt will want to
use some CNAME, like take23.perl.apache.org -- this is a good idea, but
otherwise, the link is there.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/
http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On 13 Dec 2000, (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
> They really also belong on perl.apache.org, unless take23 is supposed
> to be taking over that responsibility, or unless take23 will have a
> VERY PROMINENT link on perl.apache.org.
I wouldn't say "taken over" but I can say you'll see more frequent updates
on take23, and it'll always be prettier :-)
> "take23" doesn't mean anything for me with respect to "mod_perl" by
> the way. Is there a secret handshake^Wmnemonic that I can remember
> the name of that website? perl.apache.org was easy to remember.
It will always be at modperl.sergeant.org too, but there's no secret
mnemonic. Well there is a connection to mod_perl (I wouldn't have just
plucked a name out of mid air), but I'm not going to just reveal it, even
though someone has already figured it out. Maybe one day it will become an
FAQ.
For now, try a bookmark.
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> writes:
Matt> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jay Jacobs wrote:
>>
>> <snip all other notes on it>
>>
>> I've seen a few folks say "my tuturial is at http://xxx", etc. But it
>> would be great if someone could put them all in a single place (take23?)
>> with a blurb about each.
>>
>> I've been trying to keep the email with the links to the various
>> presentations and tutorials for the moment when I have time to look at
>> them, but it'd be great to have a single location that I might have in my
>> memory when time is available.
Matt> I'd love to get all of these onto take23, but of course that requires some
Matt> sort of effort from someone to gather them together and put together a web
Matt> page (in XML!). Volunteers?
They really also belong on perl.apache.org, unless take23 is supposed
to be taking over that responsibility, or unless take23 will have a
VERY PROMINENT link on perl.apache.org.
"take23" doesn't mean anything for me with respect to "mod_perl" by
the way. Is there a secret handshake^Wmnemonic that I can remember
the name of that website? perl.apache.org was easy to remember.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jay Jacobs wrote:
>
> <snip all other notes on it>
>
> I've seen a few folks say "my tuturial is at http://xxx", etc. But it
> would be great if someone could put them all in a single place (take23?)
> with a blurb about each.
>
> I've been trying to keep the email with the links to the various
> presentations and tutorials for the moment when I have time to look at
> them, but it'd be great to have a single location that I might have in my
> memory when time is available.
I'd love to get all of these onto take23, but of course that requires some
sort of effort from someone to gather them together and put together a web
page (in XML!). Volunteers?
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Jay Jacobs <ja...@lach.net>.
<snip all other notes on it>
I've seen a few folks say "my tuturial is at http://xxx", etc. But it
would be great if someone could put them all in a single place (take23?)
with a blurb about each.
I've been trying to keep the email with the links to the various
presentations and tutorials for the moment when I have time to look at
them, but it'd be great to have a single location that I might have in my
memory when time is available.
Jay
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Greg Cope <gr...@rubberplant.freeserve.co.uk>.
Nathan Torkington wrote:
>
> J. J. Horner writes:
> > What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
> > distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
>
> Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
> responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
I'd be interested - although I hope I am beyond that stage now ;-).
I would like to see these sorts of things and "success stories" - how
ever short in the web to do a bit of advocay and (hopefully) attract
more developers (and mindshare).
Subliminal hint - www.take23.org
>
> If nobody's interested in increasing the number of mod_perl
> programmers through tutorials, then the only other option I can think
> of is strategically-placed success stories.
agreed.
>
> I know that perl.oreilly.com is making a point of collecting Perl
> success stories and is always hungry for more. They won't convert
> the unwashed there, though.
>
> It'd sure be nice to have a WebTechniques special issue on mod_perl.
> Hint, hint, Randal :-)
nudges from here as well ;-)
Greg
>
> Nat
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@navaco.com>.
Both would be great. gnome.org has a large number of tutorials on all
aspects of gtk and gnome programming and so a newbie could get started
just by the stuff at the site. While mod_perl has some great resources
like the Eagle book and the guide, there is something to be said for
having on line resources all in one place.
bakki
Nathan Torkington wrote:
>
> J. J. Horner writes:
> > What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
> > distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
>
> Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
> responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
>
> If nobody's interested in increasing the number of mod_perl
> programmers through tutorials, then the only other option I can think
> of is strategically-placed success stories.
>
> I know that perl.oreilly.com is making a point of collecting Perl
> success stories and is always hungry for more. They won't convert
> the unwashed there, though.
>
> It'd sure be nice to have a WebTechniques special issue on mod_perl.
> Hint, hint, Randal :-)
>
> Nat
--
_ _
.-. |M|S| Bakki Kudva
|D|_|a|y| Navaco
|o|m|n|s|<\ 420 Pasadena Drive
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e-Docs
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com>.
On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 11:08:44AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> J. J. Horner writes:
> > What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
> > distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
>
> Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
> responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
>
I'm interested. Send me a link, or tell me more information.
If it is going to cost me, it will have to wait until after Christmas.
My Christmas budge was depleted when I bought a new laptop, a new server,
and a french horn.
JJ
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
Re: Mod_perl tutorials
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
J. J. Horner writes:
> What is the story on these tutorials? Is it something you can
> distribute, or did most of it come off of the top your head?
Tutorials seems like a deadend for effort. I've had zero (0)
responses to my offer of my "Introduction to mod_perl" tutorial.
If nobody's interested in increasing the number of mod_perl
programmers through tutorials, then the only other option I can think
of is strategically-placed success stories.
I know that perl.oreilly.com is making a point of collecting Perl
success stories and is always hungry for more. They won't convert
the unwashed there, though.
It'd sure be nice to have a WebTechniques special issue on mod_perl.
Hint, hint, Randal :-)
Nat