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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2004/02/03 03:11:39 UTC
Lenya Dependencies
I spent a few hours today to understand the lenya dependencies (using
eclipse and a lot of patience) and here is what I found out:
Contained in cocoon kernel:
lib/core
- avalon-framework
- excalibur-io
- excalibur-pool
- excalibur-sourceresolve
- excalibur-xmlutil
- jakarta-regexp
- rhino
- commons-httpclient
lib/endorsed
- xerces
- xml-api
lib/optional
- servlet
Cocoon block dependencies
- lucene
- cron (for quartz)
- xmldb
- html (for jtidy)
Contained in cocoon tools
- ant
- junit
- jing
Not found in cocoon
- log4j
- dom4j
- websphinx
There are a few things that strike me as odd:
1) is the dependency on xerces really needed?
2) lenya compiles *only* on 1.4 because it contains assertions all
over the place. I recall deciding this was bad practice but apparently
somebody doesn't give a damn.
3) why there is a dependency on ant? do we really need those tasks for
normal lenya operation?
4) why there is a dependency on rhino?
So the question really is:
Anybody against throwing away all libraries from lenya and just work
from the top of cocoon?
--
Stefano.
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Upayavira wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>> Okay its a crawler. But Cocoon has crawlers. The Lucene block has one
>>> for use with its search facilities. Why do you need another one?
>>>
>>> <snip/>
>>>
>>> Upayavira
>>
>>
>>
>> i think the issue was that the lucene crawler was not working properly
>> at the time of the integration (about a year ago). this may well have
>> changed. michi, what were the particulars again?
>
>
> In which case it should be fixed, rather than working around it.
that's true, but I tried to use LARM (Lucene Sandbox) more than a year
ago and I just not managed to get it running.
btw, websphinx is just needed for the "robots.txt" part and not for the
actual crawling ...
>
> Anyway, I've used it on projects and have not found problems.
which one exactly (the Cocoon block)?
I am happy if somebody wants to replace it. The Crawler is currently
being called via
src/webapp/lenya/bin/crawl_and_index.sh
src/webapp/lenya/bin/crawl_and_index.xml
and configured by (for instance)
src/webapp/lenya/pubs/oscom/config/search/crawler.xconf
Michi
>
> Upayavira
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Upayavira wrote:
>
>> Okay its a crawler. But Cocoon has crawlers. The Lucene block has one
>> for use with its search facilities. Why do you need another one?
>>
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Upayavira
>
>
> i think the issue was that the lucene crawler was not working properly
> at the time of the integration (about a year ago). this may well have
> changed. michi, what were the particulars again?
In which case it should be fixed, rather than working around it.
Anyway, I've used it on projects and have not found problems.
Upayavira
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Upayavira wrote:
> Okay its a crawler. But Cocoon has crawlers. The Lucene block has one
> for use with its search facilities. Why do you need another one?
>
> <snip/>
>
> Upayavira
i think the issue was that the lucene crawler was not working properly
at the time of the integration (about a year ago). this may well have
changed. michi, what were the particulars again?
-gregor
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> On 3 Feb 2004, at 04:30, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
<snip/>
>
>>> - websphinx
>>
>>
>> A crawler, I think we need it for the search engine.
>
>
> good
Okay its a crawler. But Cocoon has crawlers. The Lucene block has one
for use with its search facilities. Why do you need another one?
<snip/>
Upayavira
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On 4 Feb 2004, at 05:05, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> There is no serious 1.4 JVM for freebsd. Now that Linux 2.6 is
>> (finally) a solid kernel from a serious serving environment
>> perspective, this is much less of an issue, but in the past serious
>> web installation ran on freeBSD.
>
> So you think 1.3 compatibility it is not necessary anymore?
This project doesn't have big userbase so going 1.4 is not going to
piss off people that had a previous installation on 1.3 and can't
upgrade.
At the same time, the 1.4 requirement might reduce your pool of users
that might be willing to try lenya out exactly for this.
I can't estimate how much the reduction of your potential pool of users
is, but as I said, it's only about those running freebsd at the moment
and those tend not to be java folks anyways.
> [...]
>
>> I thought that lenya didn't use flow! what's this?
>
> Lenya uses flow for the user administration interface.
>
> ATM I'm using flow for the complete CMS function user
> interface in a publication. Many things I learned there
> will hopefully find their way into the Lenya core.
Glad to know.
> [...]
>
>> The big issue here is "continous integration". Lenya fails to see the
>> value of this and decided to work on a freezed version of cocoon
>> instead of working on top of the latest and greatest.
>> I think it would be much better for both communities if you could
>> build lenya like this:
>> cvs checkout cocoon-2.1
>> cvs checkout cocoon-lenya
>> cd cocoon-lenya
>> ant webapp
>> ./lenya.sh servlet
>> this should be it, nothing else and should work any day and any time.
>
> OK, so let's start with this after the release.
Ok, so let's do the damn release and move on.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
[...]
> There is no serious 1.4 JVM for freebsd. Now that Linux 2.6 is (finally)
> a solid kernel from a serious serving environment perspective, this is
> much less of an issue, but in the past serious web installation ran on
> freeBSD.
So you think 1.3 compatibility it is not necessary anymore?
[...]
> I thought that lenya didn't use flow! what's this?
Lenya uses flow for the user administration interface.
ATM I'm using flow for the complete CMS function user
interface in a publication. Many things I learned there
will hopefully find their way into the Lenya core.
[...]
> The big issue here is "continous integration". Lenya fails to see the
> value of this and decided to work on a freezed version of cocoon instead
> of working on top of the latest and greatest.
>
> I think it would be much better for both communities if you could build
> lenya like this:
>
> cvs checkout cocoon-2.1
> cvs checkout cocoon-lenya
> cd cocoon-lenya
> ant webapp
> ./lenya.sh servlet
>
> this should be it, nothing else and should work any day and any time.
OK, so let's start with this after the release.
-- Andreas
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On 3 Feb 2004, at 04:30, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Not found in cocoon
>> - log4j
>
> +1 to remove dependencies.
> But this would require someone to make familiar with
> Avalon logging (especially from non-Avalon classes).
no big deal, we can do that later.
>
>> - dom4j
>
> Could be replaced by JAXP. Is this worth investing
> the time?
goes along with the use of JAXP instead of Xerces directly (see below)
>> - websphinx
>
> A crawler, I think we need it for the search engine.
good
>
>> There are a few things that strike me as odd:
>> 1) is the dependency on xerces really needed?
>
> I couldn't think of any reason.
removing dependencies is good
>> 2) lenya compiles *only* on 1.4 because it contains assertions all
>> over the place. I recall deciding this was bad practice but
>> apparently somebody doesn't give a damn.
>
> We are aware of your opinion, but up to now I can't
> remember anyone else complaining about this. My
> personal opinion is that we should use 1.4, mainly
> because of the advanced String functions. I know,
> there are Apache packages for those tasks, but I'm
> not yet convinced that they are better than the
> ones which come with Java. Maybe the fact that some
> ISPs don't support 1.4 should convince me, but
> at the moment I don't see any complaints.
>
> If this issue is really important (regarding the
> relations to the Cocoon community etc.), it will
> be fine with me to change my opinion.
There is no serious 1.4 JVM for freebsd. Now that Linux 2.6 is
(finally) a solid kernel from a serious serving environment
perspective, this is much less of an issue, but in the past serious web
installation ran on freeBSD.
>> 3) why there is a dependency on ant? do we really need those tasks
>> for
>> normal lenya operation?
>
> Yes, Lenya uses Ant for CMS functionality. From our
> current point of view, this wasn't a very wise design
> decision, but we can't change it within a couple of
> days.
Ok
>> 4) why there is a dependency on rhino?
>
> We use some Forrest libraries for our documentation
> publication, the batik jar seems to have a reference
> to rhino.
No, there is a indirect dependency on Rhino from lenya classes.
./org/apache/lenya/cms/cocoon/flow/FlowHelper.java
I thought that lenya didn't use flow! what's this?
>> So the question really is:
>> Anybody against throwing away all libraries from lenya and just
>> work from the top of cocoon?
>
> This is very tempting, but I think it will take quite
> a lot of time (esp. dom4j, log4j). Do you consider this
> essential for our relations to the Cocoon project, or
> are there other issues with a higher priority (e.g.,
> updating to Cocoon CVS)?
The big issue here is "continous integration". Lenya fails to see the
value of this and decided to work on a freezed version of cocoon
instead of working on top of the latest and greatest.
I think it would be much better for both communities if you could build
lenya like this:
cvs checkout cocoon-2.1
cvs checkout cocoon-lenya
cd cocoon-lenya
ant webapp
./lenya.sh servlet
this should be it, nothing else and should work any day and any time.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Lenya Dependencies
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
[...]
> Not found in cocoon
>
> - log4j
+1 to remove dependencies.
But this would require someone to make familiar with
Avalon logging (especially from non-Avalon classes).
> - dom4j
Could be replaced by JAXP. Is this worth investing
the time?
> - websphinx
A crawler, I think we need it for the search engine.
> There are a few things that strike me as odd:
>
> 1) is the dependency on xerces really needed?
I couldn't think of any reason.
> 2) lenya compiles *only* on 1.4 because it contains assertions all over
> the place. I recall deciding this was bad practice but apparently
> somebody doesn't give a damn.
We are aware of your opinion, but up to now I can't
remember anyone else complaining about this. My
personal opinion is that we should use 1.4, mainly
because of the advanced String functions. I know,
there are Apache packages for those tasks, but I'm
not yet convinced that they are better than the
ones which come with Java. Maybe the fact that some
ISPs don't support 1.4 should convince me, but
at the moment I don't see any complaints.
If this issue is really important (regarding the
relations to the Cocoon community etc.), it will
be fine with me to change my opinion.
> 3) why there is a dependency on ant? do we really need those tasks for
> normal lenya operation?
Yes, Lenya uses Ant for CMS functionality. From our
current point of view, this wasn't a very wise design
decision, but we can't change it within a couple of
days.
> 4) why there is a dependency on rhino?
We use some Forrest libraries for our documentation
publication, the batik jar seems to have a reference
to rhino.
> So the question really is:
>
> Anybody against throwing away all libraries from lenya and just work
> from the top of cocoon?
This is very tempting, but I think it will take quite
a lot of time (esp. dom4j, log4j). Do you consider this
essential for our relations to the Cocoon project, or
are there other issues with a higher priority (e.g.,
updating to Cocoon CVS)?
-- Andreas
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