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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Martin Moss <ma...@btopenworld.com> on 2007/03/08 16:38:08 UTC
Zend PHP
I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
for php.
It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
(hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
lackthereof for Perl...
So my question is, given I'm not a php fan, Is there
an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
Marty
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Re: Zend PHP
Posted by David Scott <ds...@earthlink.net>.
Chris Shiflett wrote:
> Zend makes their money by releasing a better version of PHP
> that is less buggy and has less security issues.
>
>
> That's why Yahoo, Wikipedia, Flickr, Digg, and others don't use Zend
> products. They like the buggy and insecure PHP. Or, maybe you don't know
> what you're talking about. I can't decide.
>
OK guys, take a deep breath.
Platform choice is a really touchy issues in a lot of shops these days.
Our company just went through a fairly painful exercise trying to decide
whether we should dump our (admittedly poorly designed) legacy mod_perl
app in favor of PHP or Rails. We finally decided to refactor what we
had to run as a Catalyst app with a DBIx::Class data abstraction layer.
We haven't finished it yet, but so far, so good. Here are a couple of
things to consider:
1. Do you have a lot of legacy Perl code? If so, do you really want to
recode everything in PHP? It will cost you a fortune and take a long time.
2. There are many reasons for choosing one platform over another but
some mythical "support" promise isn't one of them. You're going to
spend a lot of time looking stuff up on your own no matter what you do -
and you'd be crazy to leave key platform decisions to someone else.
3. Does it really matter? In the AJAX-ified, Web 2.0 world, a lot of
the effort goes into Javascript and CSS anyway - whether you're
constructing the templates and serving the JSON using Java or Ruby or
Perl or PHP doesn't really matter that much any more.
d
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Chris Shiflett <sh...@php.net>.
Jonathan Vanasco wrote:
> A lot of the issues that Zend address in their products are
> fixing up the general release of PHP which is filled with
> security issues and configuration problems.
Care to back that up?
> Zend makes their money by releasing a better version of PHP
> that is less buggy and has less security issues.
That's why Yahoo, Wikipedia, Flickr, Digg, and others don't use Zend
products. They like the buggy and insecure PHP. Or, maybe you don't know
what you're talking about. I can't decide.
Getting back on topic...
OmniTI (my employer) supports many large-scale web sites, most of which
are Perl and PHP. I'm sure we're not the only consulting company that
can help those who need Perl support.
You might not see "Perl support" advertised much, because that's not
exactly what's being offered. For example, like many consulting
companies, we support the needs of our clients, whatever those may be.
If we manage a client's web site, we do whatever it takes to make sure
that web site runs smoothly 24/7. In most cases, clients don't care
whether their web site is built with Perl; they just want it to work.
For those who have more specific needs, "Perl support" is too generic to
describe them anyway. As someone else rightly asked, what sort of
support do you need? I'm sure there are many, many options.
Chris
--
Chris Shiflett
http://shiflett.org/
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Jonathan Vanasco <jv...@2xlp.com>.
On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Martin Moss wrote:
> I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
> for php.
> It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
> reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
> (hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
> lackthereof for Perl...
>
> So my question is, given I'm not a php fan, Is there
> an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
> provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
Forgive me--
What kind of support do you need / expect to be getting from Zend
that you'll need for perl.
I still use php a bit -- a lot of the issues that Zend address in
their products are fixing up the general release of PHP which is
filled with security issues and configuration problems. You just
don't have that with many other platforms. Zend makes their money by
releasing a better version of PHP that is less buggy and has less
security issues.
Move to PHP if you want the features & functionality it has to offer,
and feel more comfortable programming it than Perl or find it easier
getting better developers. Choosing PHP over 'support' that you
will probably only need because you're shifting your platform from
perl to php seems like a ridiculously funny joke more than a sound
business decision.
// Jonathan Vanasco
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Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Jeremy Wall <je...@marzhillstudios.com>.
On Thursday 08 March 2007 09:38, Martin Moss wrote:
> I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
> for php.
> It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
> reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
> (hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
> lackthereof for Perl...
>
> So my question is, given I'm not a php fan, Is there
> an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
> provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
I believe ActiveState provides support. for their ActivePerl distribution. I'm
not one hundred percent sure but I think the enterprise edition provides
support.
>
> Marty
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick,
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Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Greg Cope <gr...@gmail.com>.
On 08/03/07, Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net> wrote:
> As far as coding is concerned, CPAN has proved to be the most valuable
> resource. In writing in other languages, I often find myself having to
> search hi-and-low for source, libraries, or documentation on how to do
> common, trivial things... Things which are easily found in CPAN.
I've often looked at CPAN code or solutions for ideas in other
environments which lack this amazing resource. Try using Java's URI
stuff compared to perl's. Its improved allot recently - but back in
Java 1.3.x days it was rubbish in comparason.
Greg
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Geoffrey Young <ge...@modperlcookbook.org>.
> To be fair to Zend... you should checkout their
> products, as it's not just about the support, but the
> fact that they have a whole integrated developer
> studio and deployment mechanism... And many other
> whistles and Bells...
I'm sure that's true. if that's appealing to you and you'd like to
stick with perl activestate has a solution that's probably a very
parallel offering:
http://activestate.com/solutions/perl/
--Geoff
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net>.
Martin Moss wrote:
> Many thanks to you all for your posts, Much food for
> thought... ultimately the decision is out of my hands,
> which is why I'm looking for useful perl based
> alternatives to propose to the powers that be.
My favorite perl based alternative is HTML::Mason. Simple, fast, and
good, and an ASP/PHP user would feel right at home (for the most part).
Rob
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Martin Moss <ma...@btopenworld.com>.
Many thanks to you all for your posts, Much food for
thought... ultimately the decision is out of my hands,
which is why I'm looking for useful perl based
alternatives to propose to the powers that be.
To be fair to Zend... you should checkout their
products, as it's not just about the support, but the
fact that they have a whole integrated developer
studio and deployment mechanism... And many other
whistles and Bells...
Regards
Marty
--- Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net> wrote:
> Martin Moss wrote:
> > I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and
> framework
> > for php.
> > It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately
> the
> > reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
> > (hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
> > lackthereof for Perl...
> >
>
> I've been writing perl for 10 years now (I know, a
> newbie :), but in
> those ten years, there's never been anything for
> which I've needed to
> ask "support" for. I've never once encountered a
> honest *perl* bug.
> Any questions, about anything, have been answered by
> the perl book, or
> perl cookbook.
>
> As far as coding is concerned, CPAN has proved to be
> the most valuable
> resource. In writing in other languages, I often
> find myself having to
> search hi-and-low for source, libraries, or
> documentation on how to do
> common, trivial things... Things which are easily
> found in CPAN.
>
> PHP is okay, and has almost the same level of
> community support as perl
> (although it kinda feels a bit less organized). The
> perl/mod_perl
> community has always been there with helpful advice
> when I needed
> assistance. I don't see it going away.
>
> I'm sure the Zend cool-aid is tasty, but I'll stick
> with perl for now... :)
>
> Rob
>
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Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net>.
Martin Moss wrote:
> I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
> for php.
> It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
> reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
> (hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
> lackthereof for Perl...
>
I've been writing perl for 10 years now (I know, a newbie :), but in
those ten years, there's never been anything for which I've needed to
ask "support" for. I've never once encountered a honest *perl* bug.
Any questions, about anything, have been answered by the perl book, or
perl cookbook.
As far as coding is concerned, CPAN has proved to be the most valuable
resource. In writing in other languages, I often find myself having to
search hi-and-low for source, libraries, or documentation on how to do
common, trivial things... Things which are easily found in CPAN.
PHP is okay, and has almost the same level of community support as perl
(although it kinda feels a bit less organized). The perl/mod_perl
community has always been there with helpful advice when I needed
assistance. I don't see it going away.
I'm sure the Zend cool-aid is tasty, but I'll stick with perl for now... :)
Rob
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Kurt Hansen <kh...@charityweb.net>.
Martin Moss wrote:
>I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
>for php.
>It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
>reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
>(hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
>lackthereof for Perl...
>
>So my question is, given I'm not a php fan, Is there
>an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
>provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
>
>
My experience over the past 8 years as a very small web outfit with
support that comes with a commercial product vs. support that comes with
an open and free product is that the free product support meets or beats
the commercial support hands down.
The commercial entities whose committment to their customers equals
those of open-source developers are the exception rather than the rule.
(And, unfortunately, those have a disturbing tendency to be bought by
less customer conscious entities, e.g. VeriSign Payment Services being
bought by PayPal, since the new boss cuts costs by cutting the support
staff.) None surpass solid open-source communities.
Plus, the key contributors to the mod_perl community are some of the
best in terms of engineering expertise, willingness to help, and
incredible patience and respect for others. Some other communities are a
bit harsh on folks who don't follow the proper form, e.g. qmail, but the
expertise and helpfulness of even these amazes me. Especially after
sitting on a phone call for 57 minutes with a very polite but completely
unknowledgeable PayPal support person on a problem that would have taken
the old VPS people 10 minutes to fix. Oh yeah, and the problem wasn't
even fixed.
Of course, open source folk won't be your "hands," but they will be your
brains. If it's "hands" you need to do that actual work, you'll have to
pay for that by hiring one capable engineering or hiring a capable
consultant.
Take care,
Kurt
--
Kurt Hansen
CharityWeb
khansen@charityweb.net
866 4eTools (866 438-6657)
"Our laws set us free." - Anon
Re: Zend PHP
Posted by Perrin Harkins <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 3/8/07, Martin Moss <ma...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Is there
> an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
> provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
There are places to buy Perl support. In addition to ActiveState,
Stonehenge Consulting spring to mind.
- Perrin
Re: supported modperl? [was Zend PHP]
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
If you are looking for a commercially supported modperl distribution
for 1.3/2.0/2.2, and you happen to fall into one of Windows Server,
Linux x86, Solaris x86 or sparc, hpux parisc2 or aix ppc/power you might
want to investigate http://www.covalent.net/solutions/ers/index.html
[Disclaimer: I'm the build mgr
Sometimes it's just next to impossible to get your preferred technology
solution past upper management when "which vendor?" comes up :(
PHP, Perl, Python and Ruby each have their own technology issues which
your choice of vendor really won't address. So focus on the technology
that best fits your development team - and toss out the questions to
the lists and some vendor/consulting firm will make it possible for you
to use the technology you really need :)
Bill
Martin Moss wrote:
> I just had a demo of the Zend Platform and framework
> for php.
> It's got some really nice stuff, but ultimately the
> reason we may decide to ditch perl and move to php
> (hmmmm I know booo) will be down to support. OR
> lackthereof for Perl...
>
> So my question is, given I'm not a php fan, Is there
> an equivalent PERL based commercial entity who will
> provide support for a medium sized web outfit?
>
> Marty
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html
>
>