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Posted to dev@xalan.apache.org by Ovidiu Predescu <ov...@cup.hp.com> on 2001/02/12 22:03:47 UTC
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:42:38 -0800, Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> on 2/12/01 12:38 PM, "Shane_Curcuru@lotus.com" <Sh...@lotus.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ----
> > "Why didn't I start working with JUnit instead of creating our own testing
> > environment?"
> > ----
>
> No. My statement really is:
>
> ----
> Why don't you look to see if you can work with the JUnit community to extend
> JUnit to do what you want.
> ----
>
> You are missing the important word there: "community".
>
> The point being, yet again I repeat myself, instead of creating yet another
> project to do Unit testing, why don't you work with the JUnit community to
> extend it to do what you want.
>
> In your email you say:
>
> "Overall, JUnit feels very small scale"
>
> My response is:
>
> Why don't you work with the JUnit people so that it doesn't feel very small
> scale?
>
> Again: don't create yet another project because the other one doesn't fit
> your needs today. Work with existing projects to make them fit your needs.
> If they don't want you or the license is incompatible, then that is an
> acceptable reason to fork.
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
>
>> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
>> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
>> Steven's work.
>
> Ok, that is insulting.
Yeah, it's written "SPAGHETTI" first of all, and if there's someone to blame
for the Jserv code, a huge bunch of us is to be blamed...
And if Jserv sucks so badly, well, how could it still win award after award
? :) :)
Pier
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pier Fumagalli <http://www.betaversion.org/> <ma...@betaversion.org>
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
> Steven's work.
Ok, that is insulting.
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> && <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
> Steven's work.
Ok, that is insulting.
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> && <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
> Steven's work.
Ok, that is insulting.
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> && <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
> Steven's work.
Ok, that is insulting.
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> && <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
Re: XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/14/01 4:32 PM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <ha...@tildeslash.com> wrote:
> Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
> spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
> Steven's work.
Ok, that is insulting.
-jon
--
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> && <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jan-Henrik Haukeland <ha...@tildeslash.com>.
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk> writes:
[*]
> Extreme Programming [*] is a methodology which I feel translates
> well to the open source ethos.
Bullshit. XP depends on a tight controlled and closely managed
iterative development process with a small team. There is very little
of this in an open source project.
XP boils down to 4 main iterative principles:
1) Listen to the user organization
2) Design as simple as possible (occams razor)
3) Test
4) Code and refactor
What OSS projects are:
1) Listen to the users (via mailinglists), insult the users and other
developers, discus stuff totaly out of foucs (like this thread), argue
and if you don't like my "brilliant" idea or code -> fork.
2) Design using patterns, that is, anti-patterns like the Blob. Take a
look at the initial tomecat code drop from SUN to see good usage of
this kind of patterns. Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
Steven's work.
3) Release often and let the users test the code, we'll probably get
some nice patches.
4) Code and refactor.. or rather copy and paste.
Yet it works, it's a miracle! But the corporate guys that has been
taking over Jakarta don't belive in miracles so we have these regular
stupid systems development process discussions, whenever e.g. a Sun or
Ibm square head programmer thinks that involment in Jakarta will look
good on his resume.
The bottom line, and I have been wanting to say this for some time -
Sun killed Java Apache, the long wait for the code drop stopped
development of JServ 1.1 and when the code finally was released it was
a *fucking* mess along with a fucking mess off corporate developers
from Sun and Ibm swamping the mailing lists with totally bureaucracy
and making action decisions hopeless.
--
Jan-Henrik Haukeland
XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jan-Henrik Haukeland <ha...@tildeslash.com>.
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk> writes:
[*]
> Extreme Programming [*] is a methodology which I feel translates
> well to the open source ethos.
Bullshit. XP depends on a tight controlled and closely managed
iterative development process with a small team. There is very little
of this in an open source project.
XP boils down to 4 main iterative principles:
1) Listen to the user organization
2) Design as simple as possible (occams razor)
3) Test
4) Code and refactor
What OSS projects are:
1) Listen to the users (via mailinglists), insult the users and other
developers, discus stuff totaly out of foucs (like this thread), argue
and if you don't like my "brilliant" idea or code -> fork.
2) Design using patterns, that is, anti-patterns like the Blob. Take a
look at the initial tomecat code drop from SUN to see good usage of
this kind of patterns. Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
Steven's work.
3) Release often and let the users test the code, we'll probably get
some nice patches.
4) Code and refactor.. or rather copy and paste.
Yet it works, it's a miracle! But the corporate guys that has been
taking over Jakarta don't belive in miracles so we have these regular
stupid systems development process discussions, whenever e.g. a Sun or
Ibm square head programmer thinks that involment in Jakarta will look
good on his resume.
The bottom line, and I have been wanting to say this for some time -
Sun killed Java Apache, the long wait for the code drop stopped
development of JServ 1.1 and when the code finally was released it was
a *fucking* mess along with a fucking mess off corporate developers
from Sun and Ibm swamping the mailing lists with totally bureaucracy
and making action decisions hopeless.
--
Jan-Henrik Haukeland
XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jan-Henrik Haukeland <ha...@tildeslash.com>.
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk> writes:
[*]
> Extreme Programming [*] is a methodology which I feel translates
> well to the open source ethos.
Bullshit. XP depends on a tight controlled and closely managed
iterative development process with a small team. There is very little
of this in an open source project.
XP boils down to 4 main iterative principles:
1) Listen to the user organization
2) Design as simple as possible (occams razor)
3) Test
4) Code and refactor
What OSS projects are:
1) Listen to the users (via mailinglists), insult the users and other
developers, discus stuff totaly out of foucs (like this thread), argue
and if you don't like my "brilliant" idea or code -> fork.
2) Design using patterns, that is, anti-patterns like the Blob. Take a
look at the initial tomecat code drop from SUN to see good usage of
this kind of patterns. Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
Steven's work.
3) Release often and let the users test the code, we'll probably get
some nice patches.
4) Code and refactor.. or rather copy and paste.
Yet it works, it's a miracle! But the corporate guys that has been
taking over Jakarta don't belive in miracles so we have these regular
stupid systems development process discussions, whenever e.g. a Sun or
Ibm square head programmer thinks that involment in Jakarta will look
good on his resume.
The bottom line, and I have been wanting to say this for some time -
Sun killed Java Apache, the long wait for the code drop stopped
development of JServ 1.1 and when the code finally was released it was
a *fucking* mess along with a fucking mess off corporate developers
from Sun and Ibm swamping the mailing lists with totally bureaucracy
and making action decisions hopeless.
--
Jan-Henrik Haukeland
XP and Jakarta [was: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal]
Posted by Jan-Henrik Haukeland <ha...@tildeslash.com>.
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk> writes:
[*]
> Extreme Programming [*] is a methodology which I feel translates
> well to the open source ethos.
Bullshit. XP depends on a tight controlled and closely managed
iterative development process with a small team. There is very little
of this in an open source project.
XP boils down to 4 main iterative principles:
1) Listen to the user organization
2) Design as simple as possible (occams razor)
3) Test
4) Code and refactor
What OSS projects are:
1) Listen to the users (via mailinglists), insult the users and other
developers, discus stuff totaly out of foucs (like this thread), argue
and if you don't like my "brilliant" idea or code -> fork.
2) Design using patterns, that is, anti-patterns like the Blob. Take a
look at the initial tomecat code drop from SUN to see good usage of
this kind of patterns. Also if you are really into anti-patterns or
spageti-code have a look at earlier 1.0 versions of JServ or Jon
Steven's work.
3) Release often and let the users test the code, we'll probably get
some nice patches.
4) Code and refactor.. or rather copy and paste.
Yet it works, it's a miracle! But the corporate guys that has been
taking over Jakarta don't belive in miracles so we have these regular
stupid systems development process discussions, whenever e.g. a Sun or
Ibm square head programmer thinks that involment in Jakarta will look
good on his resume.
The bottom line, and I have been wanting to say this for some time -
Sun killed Java Apache, the long wait for the code drop stopped
development of JServ 1.1 and when the code finally was released it was
a *fucking* mess along with a fucking mess off corporate developers
from Sun and Ibm swamping the mailing lists with totally bureaucracy
and making action decisions hopeless.
--
Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Ovidiu Predescu (ovidiu@cup.hp.com) wrote :
> I believe we should look at the merits of his framework before
> discussing how or whether it can or should be integrated with JUnit.
> Your approach of one size fits all doesn't always work.
I totally agree, and as the original 'cause' of this argument, I think
we need to make sure we use the best tool for the job. Extreme
Programming is something that is very important to me, it's a
methodology which I strongly concur with, and I feel that it is a
methodology which I feel translates well to the open source ethos.
> Shane, do you have the code in a shape that could be posted on the Web for
> others to review? I'm very much interested in a framework that has the
> capabilities you describe.
I would be *very* interested in seeing this. I should point out that I
am very keen to get the original concept moving soonish (originally, I
wanted to start unit testing cocoon2), but I believe that all the apache
projects could benefit from a testing framework, and I am more than
happy if this framework is developed within the infrastructure of the
Apache community.
Shane - if we can see how you've approached the problem, review what
you've done to date, and see if it solves the problems we face (testing
media-complex projects such as cocoon is, uh, non-trivial) I'd be
eternally grateful.
Thanks all,
Paul
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Ovidiu Predescu (ovidiu@cup.hp.com) wrote :
> I believe we should look at the merits of his framework before
> discussing how or whether it can or should be integrated with JUnit.
> Your approach of one size fits all doesn't always work.
I totally agree, and as the original 'cause' of this argument, I think
we need to make sure we use the best tool for the job. Extreme
Programming is something that is very important to me, it's a
methodology which I strongly concur with, and I feel that it is a
methodology which I feel translates well to the open source ethos.
> Shane, do you have the code in a shape that could be posted on the Web for
> others to review? I'm very much interested in a framework that has the
> capabilities you describe.
I would be *very* interested in seeing this. I should point out that I
am very keen to get the original concept moving soonish (originally, I
wanted to start unit testing cocoon2), but I believe that all the apache
projects could benefit from a testing framework, and I am more than
happy if this framework is developed within the infrastructure of the
Apache community.
Shane - if we can see how you've approached the problem, review what
you've done to date, and see if it solves the problems we face (testing
media-complex projects such as cocoon is, uh, non-trivial) I'd be
eternally grateful.
Thanks all,
Paul
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Ovidiu Predescu (ovidiu@cup.hp.com) wrote :
> I believe we should look at the merits of his framework before
> discussing how or whether it can or should be integrated with JUnit.
> Your approach of one size fits all doesn't always work.
I totally agree, and as the original 'cause' of this argument, I think
we need to make sure we use the best tool for the job. Extreme
Programming is something that is very important to me, it's a
methodology which I strongly concur with, and I feel that it is a
methodology which I feel translates well to the open source ethos.
> Shane, do you have the code in a shape that could be posted on the Web for
> others to review? I'm very much interested in a framework that has the
> capabilities you describe.
I would be *very* interested in seeing this. I should point out that I
am very keen to get the original concept moving soonish (originally, I
wanted to start unit testing cocoon2), but I believe that all the apache
projects could benefit from a testing framework, and I am more than
happy if this framework is developed within the infrastructure of the
Apache community.
Shane - if we can see how you've approached the problem, review what
you've done to date, and see if it solves the problems we face (testing
media-complex projects such as cocoon is, uh, non-trivial) I'd be
eternally grateful.
Thanks all,
Paul
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Ovidiu Predescu (ovidiu@cup.hp.com) wrote :
> I believe we should look at the merits of his framework before
> discussing how or whether it can or should be integrated with JUnit.
> Your approach of one size fits all doesn't always work.
I totally agree, and as the original 'cause' of this argument, I think
we need to make sure we use the best tool for the job. Extreme
Programming is something that is very important to me, it's a
methodology which I strongly concur with, and I feel that it is a
methodology which I feel translates well to the open source ethos.
> Shane, do you have the code in a shape that could be posted on the Web for
> others to review? I'm very much interested in a framework that has the
> capabilities you describe.
I would be *very* interested in seeing this. I should point out that I
am very keen to get the original concept moving soonish (originally, I
wanted to start unit testing cocoon2), but I believe that all the apache
projects could benefit from a testing framework, and I am more than
happy if this framework is developed within the infrastructure of the
Apache community.
Shane - if we can see how you've approached the problem, review what
you've done to date, and see if it solves the problems we face (testing
media-complex projects such as cocoon is, uh, non-trivial) I'd be
eternally grateful.
Thanks all,
Paul
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk