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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com> on 2004/08/14 03:35:05 UTC
Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Hi All,
I think I am a typical math only user and developer
and I just joined the e-mail lists. The last days, I
seriously contemplated on leaving both lists because
of the use amout of completly irrelevant bullshit that
passes by every morning and during the day on my
computer. I have better things to do. I still give it
a few days, basically to find out whether people are
good enough to put [math] in the header always. If so,
I can filter, but my experience with other mailing
lists is that people forget sometimes....
Anyway, I am VERY strong in favour for a math user AND
a math dev e-mail list.....
Cheers,
Kim
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Filtering by subcommunity Was: Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a
"dev" email list.
Posted by "J.Pietschmann" <j3...@yahoo.de>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
> I think I am a typical math only user and developer
> and I just joined the e-mail lists. The last days, I
> seriously contemplated on leaving both lists because
> of the use amout of completly irrelevant bullshit that
> passes by every morning and during the day on my
> computer. I have better things to do. I still give it
> a few days, basically to find out whether people are
> good enough to put [math] in the header always. If so,
> I can filter, but my experience with other mailing
> lists is that people forget sometimes....
I have experimented with a combination of procmail and
bogofilter (basically the same a spam filtering) in order
to improve automatic classification, with encouraging
results. There are further ideas yet to be explored.
Unfortunately, this is a complex setup, not ready for
the common user. Better mailing list subscriber support
including automatic filtering for lists covering
multiple topics of interests really needs to be build
into the mail client. So much to do ...
J.Pietschmann
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
>--- "matthew.hawthorne" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> <>
>
>> <>I think I am a typical math only user and developer and I just
>> joined the e-mail lists. The last days, I seriously contemplated on
>> leaving both lists because of the use amout of completly irrelevant
>> bullshit that passes by every morning and during the day on my
>> computer. I have better things to do.
>
> <>
> Maybe irrelevant to you, but not irrelevant to the
> rest of us...
One of the things I learned from programming was to automate tasks that
were repetitive in nature. I can always regulate my own time by
automating the tasks I need to perform for my personal requirements.
Most of the traffic on the list is about how the list can create a
special case so that the math boys don't have to be responsible for
their own environment. I think this is a bad idea. If you want to join
an email list, learn how to use your email client. Otherwise, we will
build the sort of monolithic crap that is typical of bureaucratic
societies that baby their privileged members.
Michael McGrady
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Commons is not a place for people uninterested in Java development.
>> Commons is a common repository for code used in Java development.
>> Maybe the math boys and girls are thinking of doing something like
>> Struts only for math folks. If so, then jakarta-commons is not the
>> place for that.
>>
>> Michael
>
>
> Michael,
>
> I believe you misinterpreted my statement. Besides, this a
> "Community", not "Mob rule", only consensus decides the nature of what
> "The Commons" is (not one person making blanket statements out of
> context).
>
> -Mark
Hi, Mark,
I could not have "misinterpreted" your statement, because I did not
interpret anything you said. I merely made my own point. I am not sure
what the "community" versus "mob rule" is all about in your mind, so I
won't guess. I do think that commons has a particular MISSION to serve
jakarta GENERALLY in way that OTHER "non-commons" applications do not.
THAT was the point. I too am, you might guess, totally against "mod
rule". I have never seen it, but it seems like a bad idea. I don't
even like group-rule, much less mobs, or even organized crime. I am not
sure what you were thinking, but it has the advantage of a lot of drama
that kind of livens up the discussion. Anyway, I was trying to make a
positive point and was not that interested in what you in particular
were saying.
Michael
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Michael McGrady wrote:
> Commons is not a place for people uninterested in Java development.
> Commons is a common repository for code used in Java development. Maybe
> the math boys and girls are thinking of doing something like Struts only
> for math folks. If so, then jakarta-commons is not the place for that.
>
> Michael
Michael,
I believe you misinterpreted my statement. Besides, this a "Community",
not "Mob rule", only consensus decides the nature of what "The Commons"
is (not one person making blanket statements out of context).
-Mark
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, once again, the users of [math] and any other Jakarta Commons
>> components must be Java developers. It is our job, as API designers
>> and documentation developers to make it as easy as possible for them;
>> but we are not developing end user products here. Any specific
>> comments that you have on the useability of the [math] API or the
>> quality of the javadoc and User Guide would be much appreciated.
>>
>
> Perhaps this is the strongest reason to establish a Math TLP
> independent of Commons Math, to provide room for those users who may
> not necessarily be java developers per se and to provide room for
> those math projects which are not necessarily commons worthy.
>
> I do not suspect there is enough support to continue to promote the
> idea of separate users lists in the commons. I will drop the subject
> for the time being.
>
> -Mark
Commons is not a place for people uninterested in Java development.
Commons is a common repository for code used in Java development. Maybe
the math boys and girls are thinking of doing something like Struts only
for math folks. If so, then jakarta-commons is not the place for that.
Michael
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Re: [math] Random generator
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
This kinda brings us back full circle, I remember back when we started
talking with Paul Houle about possibly donating the RngPack codebase to
Math. He had agreed on some levels, but we never approached Licensing
with all the legal issues. Mostly, he relicensed the entire thing under
a BSD style license and said he'd be glad to relicense it under apache
if necessary. But I don't think he was motivated to push this through, I
think its something we would have to take responsibility for working out
the details of.
http://www.honeylocust.com/RngPack/
-Mark
Phil Steitz wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I just digged in and found that you use the standard
>> random generator of SUN. Is that an inproved version
>> of the 1.0.2 version, which is a very very basic
>> pseudo-pseudo-pseudo random generator. Any help?
>
>
> Yes, it would be great to include some additional PRNGs as part of
> [math]. If you have (unencumbered) robust implementations with good
> performance or are interested in developing them, I think this would
> make a good addition to [math]. The current implementation of the
> RandomData interface supports pluggable generators for the secure
> methods (using the SecureRandom support for that) and also encapsulates
> the getRandom() method that is used everywhere to get a PRNG, so it
> would be easy to plug in alternative PRNGs.
>
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: [math] Random generator
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
--- Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com> wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
> > I generally use the RandomX package that you can
> > find here.
>
> Where is "here"?
Oeps, I forgot the link:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/source/randomX/randomX.html
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Re: [math] Random generator
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> I generally use the RandomX package that you can find
> here.
Where is "here"?
>I do not know whether there is copy right on
> this. The randomLEcuyer class is untrustable, but with
> some alternative seeding will be completly stable. It
> involves some programming steps I do not get the logic
> from yet (bit shift stuff) so that will not do.
>
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Re: [math] Random generator
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Phil,
I generally use the RandomX package that you can find
here. I do not know whether there is copy right on
this. The randomLEcuyer class is untrustable, but with
some alternative seeding will be completly stable. It
involves some programming steps I do not get the logic
from yet (bit shift stuff) so that will not do.
cheers,
Kim
--- Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com> wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I just digged in and found that you use the
> standard
> > random generator of SUN. Is that an inproved
> version
> > of the 1.0.2 version, which is a very very basic
> > pseudo-pseudo-pseudo random generator. Any help?
>
> Yes, it would be great to include some additional
> PRNGs as part of [math].
> If you have (unencumbered) robust implementations
> with good performance
> or are interested in developing them, I think this
> would make a good
> addition to [math]. The current implementation of
> the RandomData
> interface supports pluggable generators for the
> secure methods (using the
> SecureRandom support for that) and also encapsulates
> the getRandom()
> method that is used everywhere to get a PRNG, so it
> would be easy to plug
> in alternative PRNGs.
> >
> > Kim
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail
> SpamGuard.
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> >
> >
>
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> >
>
>
>
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Re: [math] Random generator
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I just digged in and found that you use the standard
> random generator of SUN. Is that an inproved version
> of the 1.0.2 version, which is a very very basic
> pseudo-pseudo-pseudo random generator. Any help?
Yes, it would be great to include some additional PRNGs as part of [math].
If you have (unencumbered) robust implementations with good performance
or are interested in developing them, I think this would make a good
addition to [math]. The current implementation of the RandomData
interface supports pluggable generators for the secure methods (using the
SecureRandom support for that) and also encapsulates the getRandom()
method that is used everywhere to get a PRNG, so it would be easy to plug
in alternative PRNGs.
>
> Kim
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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[math] Random generator
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
Hi All,
I just digged in and found that you use the standard
random generator of SUN. Is that an inproved version
of the 1.0.2 version, which is a very very basic
pseudo-pseudo-pseudo random generator. Any help?
Kim
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Phil Steitz wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I agree with you. And I have played advocate of the
>> devil here, as I noticed from the beginning on that
>> this is a hard-core developers environment. But in
>> daily life, I work in an environment were people are
>> the real users of the products that are developed
>> here. They are not programmers by nature, they are not
>> involved in area's of science that includes mandatory
>> programming skills like astronomy.
>
>
> If they are using commons components, they are by definition java
> developers.
Thats probably the most limiting definition of a java developer that
I've ever heard. If you read a law book, does that make you a Lawyer? If
you boil water on a stove, does that make you a chef?
>
> For the people
>
>> around me, programming is a TOOL, a tool to do comples
>> mathematical stuff that they otherwise could not do.
>> When it becomes to complex, they come to me. When I
>> put people like them on a track of an e-mail group
>> like this, they quit within days. And that is not
>> because they are incapable to understand it.
>>
>> Just to highlight this, and example that I encountered
>> myself. Untill now, I have done a lot of programming
>> of statistics, and the like, and I do statistics all
>> the time. But untill now, I never encountered the idea
>> of 'moments'. Maybe wierd, but still true.
>
>
> Moments are used in [math] mainly as a tool to compute more commonly
> used statistics. In fact, our "moments" are not really moments in the
> normal definition (as explained in the javadoc).
>
The method applied is based on the following paper:
Spicer, C. C. 1972. Algorithm AS 52: Calculation of power sums of
deviations about the mean. Applied Statistics, 21: 226–227.
It is also used in SPSS:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/hrz/software/spss/algorithms/descriptives.pdf
>> I neither
>> had it at highschool, nor at the university at any
>> time. Maybe it is a wierd thing related to the Dutch
>> school system. But I think it is exemplatory for how a
>> lot of open source projects fail to recognize that the
>> main user group are not the hard-core developers they
>> are themselves. (And I am much more a hard-core
>> programmer than a lot of collegues that might benefit
>> from a package like commons-math(s)).
>
>
> Well, once again, the users of [math] and any other Jakarta Commons
> components must be Java developers. It is our job, as API designers and
> documentation developers to make it as easy as possible for them; but we
> are not developing end user products here. Any specific comments that
> you have on the useability of the [math] API or the quality of the
> javadoc and User Guide would be much appreciated.
>
Perhaps this is the strongest reason to establish a Math TLP independent
of Commons Math, to provide room for those users who may not necessarily
be java developers per se and to provide room for those math projects
which are not necessarily commons worthy.
I do not suspect there is enough support to continue to promote the idea
of separate users lists in the commons. I will drop the subject for the
time being.
-Mark
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I agree with you. And I have played advocate of the
> devil here, as I noticed from the beginning on that
> this is a hard-core developers environment. But in
> daily life, I work in an environment were people are
> the real users of the products that are developed
> here. They are not programmers by nature, they are not
> involved in area's of science that includes mandatory
> programming skills like astronomy.
If they are using commons components, they are by definition java developers.
For the people
> around me, programming is a TOOL, a tool to do comples
> mathematical stuff that they otherwise could not do.
> When it becomes to complex, they come to me. When I
> put people like them on a track of an e-mail group
> like this, they quit within days. And that is not
> because they are incapable to understand it.
>
> Just to highlight this, and example that I encountered
> myself. Untill now, I have done a lot of programming
> of statistics, and the like, and I do statistics all
> the time. But untill now, I never encountered the idea
> of 'moments'. Maybe wierd, but still true.
Moments are used in [math] mainly as a tool to compute more commonly used
statistics. In fact, our "moments" are not really moments in the normal
definition (as explained in the javadoc).
I neither
> had it at highschool, nor at the university at any
> time. Maybe it is a wierd thing related to the Dutch
> school system. But I think it is exemplatory for how a
> lot of open source projects fail to recognize that the
> main user group are not the hard-core developers they
> are themselves. (And I am much more a hard-core
> programmer than a lot of collegues that might benefit
> from a package like commons-math(s)).
Well, once again, the users of [math] and any other Jakarta Commons
components must be Java developers. It is our job, as API designers and
documentation developers to make it as easy as possible for them; but we
are not developing end user products here. Any specific comments that you
have on the useability of the [math] API or the quality of the javadoc and
User Guide would be much appreciated.
Phil
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kim
>
>
> --- "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Again, an excellent example of my point, this is not
>>very civil from a "User Support" standpoint and
>>attitude such as this will only drive users away.
>>Unfortunately, most of us developers are very stoic
>>and abrupt, something that ultimately undermines any
>>interaction with users who are not fellow developers
>
>
>>at heart.
>>
>>-Mark
>>
>>Michael McGrady wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You have the knowledge to configure your email
>>>client to get what you like. Why should everyone
>>>cater to your predilictions?
>>>
>>>Michael
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
Hi Mark,
I agree with you. And I have played advocate of the
devil here, as I noticed from the beginning on that
this is a hard-core developers environment. But in
daily life, I work in an environment were people are
the real users of the products that are developed
here. They are not programmers by nature, they are not
involved in area's of science that includes mandatory
programming skills like astronomy. For the people
around me, programming is a TOOL, a tool to do comples
mathematical stuff that they otherwise could not do.
When it becomes to complex, they come to me. When I
put people like them on a track of an e-mail group
like this, they quit within days. And that is not
because they are incapable to understand it.
Just to highlight this, and example that I encountered
myself. Untill now, I have done a lot of programming
of statistics, and the like, and I do statistics all
the time. But untill now, I never encountered the idea
of 'moments'. Maybe wierd, but still true. I neither
had it at highschool, nor at the university at any
time. Maybe it is a wierd thing related to the Dutch
school system. But I think it is exemplatory for how a
lot of open source projects fail to recognize that the
main user group are not the hard-core developers they
are themselves. (And I am much more a hard-core
programmer than a lot of collegues that might benefit
from a package like commons-math(s)).
Cheers,
Kim
--- "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>
wrote:
> Again, an excellent example of my point, this is not
> very civil from a "User Support" standpoint and
> attitude such as this will only drive users away.
> Unfortunately, most of us developers are very stoic
> and abrupt, something that ultimately undermines any
> interaction with users who are not fellow developers
> at heart.
>
> -Mark
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
> > You have the knowledge to configure your email
> > client to get what you like. Why should everyone
> > cater to your predilictions?
> >
> > Michael
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Again, an excellent example of my point, this is not very civil from a
"User Support" standpoint and attitude such as this will only drive
users away. Unfortunately, most of us developers are very stoic and
abrupt, something that ultimately undermines any interaction with users
who are not fellow developers at heart.
-Mark
Michael McGrady wrote:
> You have the knowledge to configure your email client to get what you
> like. Why should everyone cater to your predilictions?
>
> Michael
>
>
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>
--
Mark R. Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Michael McGrady wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
>
> >--- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>It seems that you are missing the single most
> >>important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Commons is one community,
> >>
> >>
> >
> >A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
> >developers? Or the developers and users at large?
> >Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
> >than most here. So be it.
Before people's heckles get raised etc, it's probably best to let you know
why there are differing opinions to your (quite acceptable) view.
Commons is a project in which a single community creates many smaller
components, gaining from the cross-pollination from different segments of
the community.
I don't think there's a single developer who works on every part
(ignoring changes to the build-system/site etc), so we're all viewing
slices of the community. For example, although I like to get involved with
lots of Commons, [jelly] is something I get a lot of noise from and don't
use.
Now, this idea of a community with internal cross-pollination has a
problem. Mailing lists aren't really able to handle the cross-pollination,
especially as it gets larger. I fully believe that as Commons Math grows
in user community, we will increasingly see that it does not intersect
with the Commons community as much as other components and we'll consider
moving it out, but right now [math] has not even released at 1.0 and it
doesn't have that community yet.
It might be a trite, oft-said thing of open-source, but the best way to
lessen the noise for [math] is actually to help it outgrow Commons :) Or
more likely with [math] (as there will always be a desire for a simple
Math.jar), help it foster other similar style components.
Anyway, hopefully that will explain the community a bit better and why
[math] has to climb a steep gradient to follow HttpClient out of
Commons.
Hen
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
>--- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>It seems that you are missing the single most
>>important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Commons is one community,
>>
>>
>
>A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
>developers? Or the developers and users at large?
>Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
>than most here. So be it.
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
You have the knowledge to configure your email client to get what you
like. Why should everyone cater to your predilictions?
Michael
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RE: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> FYI, Top level Commons is being wrapped up and closed.
In part because it has been unused. I don't believe that it should be taken
to say that a Commons is a bad thing. There was talk about Jakarta Commons
going TLP. I still think that would be a good idea. So did others. The
sticking point was the idea of merging with ASF Commons, where I think
people got hung up on who was going to be in the driver's seat.
--- Noel
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> i would like to remind people that quite a while ago now (when math was
> just in the process of getting going) i commented that i thought that
> the best place for math (in the long term) would be as part of the ASF
> commons top level project. i haven't changed my mind. if the math
> community feels that a separate dev list is necessary then i'd like to
> suggest that they consider whether moving from the jakarta pmc to the
> commons pmc would be a better cure.
FYI, Top level Commons is being wrapped up and closed. So
Math->ASF-Commons is unlikely right now.
Hen
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 15 Aug 2004, at 02:01, Mark R. Diggory wrote:
<snip>
> After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted
> on to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get
> more heated.
though i agree with this (and it's bad form to post without reading all
the email) i think it might be useful for me to add a couple of
comments. (i'm not really interested in prolonging the argument so i
plan to bow out after i've said my piece.)
i'm in agreement with henri that there isn't really any problem going
for separate user lists.
i would like to remind people that quite a while ago now (when math was
just in the process of getting going) i commented that i thought that
the best place for math (in the long term) would be as part of the ASF
commons top level project. i haven't changed my mind. if the math
community feels that a separate dev list is necessary then i'd like to
suggest that they consider whether moving from the jakarta pmc to the
commons pmc would be a better cure.
- robert
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Re: [math] Vote 1.0-rc1 release
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> The release of math 1.0 is pretty much just a "Tag" at this point. With
> Phil's last excellent push, I would argue we are at the release
> candidate stage and should cut an rc1 jar, zip and tarball. If we worry
> about getting more perfect than this before release, we will never have
> releases.
>
> Math Release Vote:
>
> [X] +1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Yea man, its ready, I'll help
> [ ] +0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Go ahead, but do it yourself
> [ ] -0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, It's not ready, but almost.
> [ ] -1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, We still have way too much to do.
>
> -Mark
>
Lets wait to vote until I have the RC up for people to test. I am working
on that today.
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Re: [math] Vote 1.0-rc1 release
Posted by Al Chou <ho...@yahoo.com>.
--- "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu> wrote:
> The release of math 1.0 is pretty much just a "Tag" at this point. With
> Phil's last excellent push, I would argue we are at the release
> candidate stage and should cut an rc1 jar, zip and tarball. If we worry
> about getting more perfect than this before release, we will never have
> releases.
Math Release Vote:
[X] +1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Yea man, its ready, I'll help
[ ] +0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Go ahead, but do it yourself
[ ] -0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, It's not ready, but almost.
[ ] -1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, We still have way too much to do.
I haven't been involved much in a while, but I think I can contribute some time
now toward releasing 1.0. Let's see an RC!
Al
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[math] Vote 1.0-rc1 release
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
The release of math 1.0 is pretty much just a "Tag" at this point. With
Phil's last excellent push, I would argue we are at the release
candidate stage and should cut an rc1 jar, zip and tarball. If we worry
about getting more perfect than this before release, we will never have
releases.
Math Release Vote:
[X] +1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Yea man, its ready, I'll help
[ ] +0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, Go ahead, but do it yourself
[ ] -0 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, It's not ready, but almost.
[ ] -1 : release commons-math-1.0-rc1, We still have way too much to do.
-Mark
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Phil Steitz wrote:
> Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> >
> > After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on
> > to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more
> > heated.
>
> We should not have to resort to a vote on this. I suggest that we suspend
> this discussion until we get 1.0 out and then we can discuss lists, more
> ambitious projects, etc. as part of a post-1.0 roadmap discussion.
+1 to delay. Let's have a 1.0, then cover this again.
1.0 is pretty close by the sound of it (?), and any discussion on a new
mail list would (should) not affect 1.0's design.
If users are turning up and having a greater than usual problem, it would
signify that a commons-math-user list is needed. If people offering ideas
are having a greater problem (contributors), a
commons-math-contributor/discuss might be needed.
Hen
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> This is the type of discussion I'm referring too. Here is a perfect
> example of why commons components would benefit from separate "users"
> lists. Users are not interested in the same discussion issues as
> developers, the commons users list is ill adapted to the cross
> pollination "developer" paradigm. Commons Users wish to discuss issues
> related specifically to the component they are using while Commons
> developers wish to maintain maximum interaction with other Commons
> components to optimize code reuse and experience.
There are quite a few users (myself among them) who use multiple commons
components and monitor commons-user to learn and/or help out. Just like on
the dev list, we can easily filter on prefixes.
>
> Lets be clear here. I do not want to see math "development" issues occur
> on a list separate from the other components. I do not want to see any
> Commons Component start is own "dev list". Nor do I want to see math
> separate from the commons. I want to see math user issues on a separate
> list, in fact I think any Commons project should have the option to
> produce their own users list as a means to provide user support for the
> component independent of the other components.
So what you are talking about is just reporting bugs, asking for help,
requesting enhancements, right? All discussion of proposed algorithms or
their implementation in [math] would be on commons-dev. In that case, I
see this as less of a problem, but I still do not see the need for it and
I do not agree with the basic premise that each commons component should
have its own user list. The fact is that commons-user is not that heavy
traffic (just over 10 messages / day on average for the past few months)
and there is very little [math] traffic there.
>
> What I'm talking about is "User Support", which should be of great
> importance to the community, as important as developer interaction.
>
> After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on
> to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more
> heated.
We should not have to resort to a vote on this. I suggest that we suspend
this discussion until we get 1.0 out and then we can discuss lists, more
ambitious projects, etc. as part of a post-1.0 roadmap discussion.
>
> -Mark
>
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
>
>> --- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> It seems that you are missing the single most
>>> important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Commons is one community,
>>
>>
>> A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
>> developers? Or the developers and users at large?
>> Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
>> than most here. So be it.
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Al Chou <ho...@yahoo.com>.
--- "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu> wrote:
> This is the type of discussion I'm referring too. Here is a perfect
> example of why commons components would benefit from separate "users"
> lists. Users are not interested in the same discussion issues as
> developers, the commons users list is ill adapted to the cross
> pollination "developer" paradigm. Commons Users wish to discuss issues
> related specifically to the component they are using while Commons
> developers wish to maintain maximum interaction with other Commons
> components to optimize code reuse and experience.
>
> Lets be clear here. I do not want to see math "development" issues occur
> on a list separate from the other components. I do not want to see any
> Commons Component start is own "dev list". Nor do I want to see math
> separate from the commons. I want to see math user issues on a separate
> list, in fact I think any Commons project should have the option to
> produce their own users list as a means to provide user support for the
> component independent of the other components.
+1 to all of the above paragraph.
> What I'm talking about is "User Support", which should be of great
> importance to the community, as important as developer interaction.
>
> After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on
> to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more heated.
+1 if a vote will resolve the issue and let the commons-dev community get back
to development discussions.
I was going to reply to Phil's last message but then saw this and Mark's next
reply, and it seems to me that commons-dev should try to remain a single
community, whereas "commons-*-user" might well be separate communities per
specific instance of the "*". Speaking for myself, as a user of a piece of
third-party software often I don't care about the discussions its developers
are having about its internals, but rather only care about the user-level
interface or API and how to use it, which isn't necessarily the same kind of
developer's-point-of-view as that of the developers of the internals of that
software, even if it may still be code-centric. For example, I use Java, but I
wouldn't want to have to follow Sun's internal "java-dev" mailing list (or
whatever the equivalent may be) in order to get answers to my questions about
Java. Does that make me not a member of the "Java community", or just not a
member of the "Java internals developers community"?
> -Mark
>
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
> >--- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>It seems that you are missing the single most
> >>important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
> >
> >>Commons is one community,
> >
> >A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
> >developers? Or the developers and users at large?
> >Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
> >than most here. So be it.
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
This is the type of discussion I'm referring too. Here is a perfect
example of why commons components would benefit from separate "users"
lists. Users are not interested in the same discussion issues as
developers, the commons users list is ill adapted to the cross
pollination "developer" paradigm. Commons Users wish to discuss issues
related specifically to the component they are using while Commons
developers wish to maintain maximum interaction with other Commons
components to optimize code reuse and experience.
Lets be clear here. I do not want to see math "development" issues occur
on a list separate from the other components. I do not want to see any
Commons Component start is own "dev list". Nor do I want to see math
separate from the commons. I want to see math user issues on a separate
list, in fact I think any Commons project should have the option to
produce their own users list as a means to provide user support for the
component independent of the other components.
What I'm talking about is "User Support", which should be of great
importance to the community, as important as developer interaction.
After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on
to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more heated.
-Mark
Kim van der Linde wrote:
>--- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>It seems that you are missing the single most
>>important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Commons is one community,
>>
>>
>
>A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
>developers? Or the developers and users at large?
>Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
>than most here. So be it.
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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>
>
--
Mark R. Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
--- Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems that you are missing the single most
> important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
> Commons is one community,
A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
developers? Or the developers and users at large?
Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
than most here. So be it.
__________________________________
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Kim van der Linde
<ki...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- "matthew.hawthorne" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Kim van der Linde wrote:
> > > I think I am a typical math only user and
> > developer
> > > and I just joined the e-mail lists. The last days,
> > I
> > > seriously contemplated on leaving both lists
> > because
> > > of the use amout of completly irrelevant bullshit
> > that
> > > passes by every morning and during the day on my
> > > computer. I have better things to do.
> >
> >
> > Maybe irrelevant to you, but not irrelevant to the
> > rest of us...
>
> Partially agree...
>
> But now I have to put up with a lot of junk that I
> just have to delete, while having two lists for you
> would not make a difference in the amount of mails....
It seems that you are missing the single most important facet of
Jakarta Commons here - community. Commons is one community, and
splitting off one component into separate mailing lists also splits
the community. This has already been demonstrated by the HttpClient
component.
You are, of course, free to choose whether or not you want to be a
part of the Jakarta Commons community. But what you seem to be
suggesting is that we should split our community into two because you
don't want to set up a filter to split off your Math mail from the
rest. That's not acceptable to me.
--
Martin Cooper
>
> But I am likely to leave the list because of the
> mails, but maybe you would like to restrict the list
> to people interested in the while bunch? Could be a
> choice....
>
> Kim
>
>
> __________________________________
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by Kim van der Linde <ki...@yahoo.com>.
--- "matthew.hawthorne" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
> > I think I am a typical math only user and
> developer
> > and I just joined the e-mail lists. The last days,
> I
> > seriously contemplated on leaving both lists
> because
> > of the use amout of completly irrelevant bullshit
> that
> > passes by every morning and during the day on my
> > computer. I have better things to do.
>
>
> Maybe irrelevant to you, but not irrelevant to the
> rest of us...
Partially agree...
But now I have to put up with a lot of junk that I
just have to delete, while having two lists for you
would not make a difference in the amount of mails....
But I am likely to leave the list because of the
mails, but maybe you would like to restrict the list
to people interested in the while bunch? Could be a
choice....
Kim
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Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Posted by "matthew.hawthorne" <ma...@apache.org>.
Kim van der Linde wrote:
> I think I am a typical math only user and developer
> and I just joined the e-mail lists. The last days, I
> seriously contemplated on leaving both lists because
> of the use amout of completly irrelevant bullshit that
> passes by every morning and during the day on my
> computer. I have better things to do.
Maybe irrelevant to you, but not irrelevant to the rest of us...
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