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Posted to rivet-dev@tcl.apache.org by "Mikhail T." <mi...@aldan.algebra.com> on 2007/01/23 16:17:27 UTC
The state of Rivet?
Hi, David, others!
I'd like to make a port of Rivet to FreeBSD (I'm currently maintaining the
mod_dtcl port). The most recent release of the software appears stuck at
0.5.0, which is not compiling against Apache-2.2.
It appears, that the 0.7.0 was released over a year ago, but there are no
sources -- only binaries (for Windows).
What is the current state? How far off is a 2.2-compatible release?
Is the project abandoned/withering and we should all look at websh instead?
Thanks!
-mi
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@dedasys.com>.
> But lately I thought about it, especially the restructuring issue. And I
> thought it could be considered to put a new version of Rivet on top of
> mod_tcl. Mod_tcl does bridge between Apache and Tcl, and it works for
> Apache 2 as well. It also works on windows - some time ago I spent an
> afternoon to port and compile it with Visual studio for Apache 2.2.
> Maintaining mod_tcl and adapting it for new Apache versions is easy,
> just because mod_tcl is very small and easy in terms of functionality.
> It's basically a low level binding for the Apache API - not less and not
> more.
A long time ago, that was sort of my idea for the future of the
Apache/Tcl world...
> So what Rivet essentially does is parsing the Tcl code in .rvt files and
> I wonder if this could be implemented in pure Tcl on top of mod_tcl?
Mostly.
> be affected. Also, the big picture could be that it is possible to run
> Rivet on top of tclhttpd or AOLServer.....
That's one thing I think I have some personal responsibily for
screwing up. We should have done more in the Tcl/Web world to
integrate all these different things into at least a basic platform,
because having such a wide variety of different things is just
confusing and disconcerting for people.
In any case, yeah, I'm basically not interested in doing much work
with Rivet beyond an advisory role. Rails has been far, far more
productive for me because there is so much out there that I can just
take and use, without having to build and maintain it myself.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On 24 Jan 2007, at 15:02, David Zolli wrote:
> But does it really matter that much? Even if I was the only one to
> use a good tool, I'll keep using it whatever others think of it.
To some extent it does matter. The more users and developers, the
more code out there and the less we have to do ourselves and thus the
more productive we become and more bugs are fixed etc. etc. The more
visibility Tcl has, the more chances it has of becoming popular.
Will Tcl ever be the #1 programming language in the world? Who knows.
However, right now I firmly believe it is very underrated. The myths
you tend to hear about Tcl are sometimes incredible and totally
false. Someone has been rather good at spreading anti-propaganda on
Tcl, which is a real shame.
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Zolli <kr...@kroc.tk>.
Le 23 janv. 07 à 23:18, David Welton a écrit :
> When is the last time any of the core guys went to speak at
> an open source conference, or wrote an article or "blog" or
> anything else to prove that the language still exists?
At least Jeff Hobbs at Fosdem (and you were with me to listen him).
But I must admit that could be better.
But does it really matter that much? Even if I was the only one to
use a good tool, I'll keep using it whatever others think of it.
--
David Zolli
kroc@kroc.tk
http://www.kroc.tk
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@apache.org>.
On 2/7/07, Colman Reilly <ca...@colmanandsam.org> wrote:
> I presume that patches and bug fixes would still be accepted? It
> works pretty well as it is ...
Yes, but what's worrisome is that no one is stepping up to help do
that. You're correct that it doesn't really need that much fiddling
as things stand now.
> The big problem is the Apache 2.0 port, correct? I've forgotten what
> the huge issue with that is?
It's a different architecture. It would probably be ok if we didn't
bother with the threaded models, but doing those would be harder.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Colman Reilly <ca...@colmanandsam.org>.
I presume that patches and bug fixes would still be accepted? It
works pretty well as it is ...
The big problem is the Apache 2.0 port, correct? I've forgotten what
the huge issue with that is?
Colman
On 7 Feb 2007, at 15:03, Rob Sciuk wrote:
>
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, David Welton wrote:
>
>> In conclusion, it looks as if there are several people concerned
>> about
>> Rivet's future, but none of them are able to do anything about it.
>> Those that are able to do something are in various stages of
>> abandoning the project.
>>
>> Not a good situation. Perhaps the best course of action at this
>> point
>> is to try and wrap things up into a 1.0 and archive it.
>>
>
> Truly a pity, as Rivet is a pleasure to develop in, but without
> critical mass, it is of course doomed. Having said that, the svn
> version last I checked (about 2 weeks ago) worked ok on FreeBSD 6.2-
> Release using Apache 1.3.37 from the ports, and using the config
> info in the README.Freebsd.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob Sciuk
>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Rob Sciuk <ro...@controlq.com>.
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, David Welton wrote:
> In conclusion, it looks as if there are several people concerned about
> Rivet's future, but none of them are able to do anything about it.
> Those that are able to do something are in various stages of
> abandoning the project.
>
> Not a good situation. Perhaps the best course of action at this point
> is to try and wrap things up into a 1.0 and archive it.
>
Truly a pity, as Rivet is a pleasure to develop in, but without critical
mass, it is of course doomed. Having said that, the svn version last I
checked (about 2 weeks ago) worked ok on FreeBSD 6.2-Release using Apache
1.3.37 from the ports, and using the config info in the README.Freebsd.
Cheers,
Rob Sciuk
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@apache.org>.
In conclusion, it looks as if there are several people concerned about
Rivet's future, but none of them are able to do anything about it.
Those that are able to do something are in various stages of
abandoning the project.
Not a good situation. Perhaps the best course of action at this point
is to try and wrap things up into a 1.0 and archive it.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by "GoMp@tcl.no" <jo...@gmail.com>.
I know 'puts stdout "Hello world"' and a loop or two. Can I help?
Kristoffer Lawson wrote:
>
> On 25 Jan 2007, at 00:36, Damon Courtney wrote:
>
>>
>>>> The elephant in that room is garbage collection, as I mentioned on
>>>> tcl-core. I want my objects deleted automatically.
>>>
>>> I would like that too, but unfortunately this is far from trivial in
>>> Tcl. It may not even be possible in a reasonable sense. Laddered
>>> string would help a lot to do something about it and there was that
>>> variable trick mentioned on the Wiki. Apart from that, you would need
>>> to break Tcl to make it happen (which, I guess, is what Hecl is about).
>>
>> Yes, but in a web-based environment, how much garbage collection do
>> you really need?! The interpreter is going to disappear as soon as
>> the webpage is sent!
>
> This very much depends on the implementation of your framework. But
> sure, that's one way to do it :-)
>
> / http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
>
>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On 25 Jan 2007, at 00:36, Damon Courtney wrote:
>
>>> The elephant in that room is garbage collection, as I mentioned on
>>> tcl-core. I want my objects deleted automatically.
>>
>> I would like that too, but unfortunately this is far from trivial
>> in Tcl. It may not even be possible in a reasonable sense.
>> Laddered string would help a lot to do something about it and
>> there was that variable trick mentioned on the Wiki. Apart from
>> that, you would need to break Tcl to make it happen (which, I
>> guess, is what Hecl is about).
>
> Yes, but in a web-based environment, how much garbage collection
> do you really need?! The interpreter is going to disappear as soon
> as the webpage is sent!
This very much depends on the implementation of your framework. But
sure, that's one way to do it :-)
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
>> The elephant in that room is garbage collection, as I mentioned on
>> tcl-core. I want my objects deleted automatically.
>
> I would like that too, but unfortunately this is far from trivial in
> Tcl. It may not even be possible in a reasonable sense. Laddered
> string would help a lot to do something about it and there was that
> variable trick mentioned on the Wiki. Apart from that, you would need
> to break Tcl to make it happen (which, I guess, is what Hecl is about).
Yes, but in a web-based environment, how much garbage collection do
you really need?! The interpreter is going to disappear as soon as the
webpage is sent!
Damon
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On 24 Jan 2007, at 23:40, David Welton wrote:
> On 1/24/07, Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, XOTcl has a lot in it, but you can start from basics and just
>> stick with that. You really don't need filters and mixins in day-to-
>> day OO operations. Of course once you do need them, they're most
>> valuable.
>
> The elephant in that room is garbage collection, as I mentioned on
> tcl-core. I want my objects deleted automatically.
I would like that too, but unfortunately this is far from trivial in
Tcl. It may not even be possible in a reasonable sense. Laddered
string would help a lot to do something about it and there was that
variable trick mentioned on the Wiki. Apart from that, you would need
to break Tcl to make it happen (which, I guess, is what Hecl is about).
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@gmail.com>.
On 1/24/07, Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com> wrote:
> Well, XOTcl has a lot in it, but you can start from basics and just
> stick with that. You really don't need filters and mixins in day-to-
> day OO operations. Of course once you do need them, they're most
> valuable.
The elephant in that room is garbage collection, as I mentioned on
tcl-core. I want my objects deleted automatically.
David Zolli writes:
> At least Jeff Hobbs at Fosdem (and you were with me to listen him).
> But I must admit that could be better.
He gave a talk about the state of Tcl, which is most definitely not
something that's going to get a non-Tcl person excited. I think Hecl
or Jim have, in some ways, better chances of doing something "big"
than Tcl does at this point (although I haven't even had much time for
Hecl lately:-( ).
> But does it really matter that much? Even if I was the only one to
> use a good tool, I'll keep using it whatever others think of it.
Yes, but it's the extras, as someone else said, that start to weigh
you down. RoR has a huge set of plugins that do all kinds of useful
things. Also... I kind of like Ruby. It's not Tcl, but it's not Java
or PHP, either. As long as those were the competition, no way was I
going to abbandon Tcl, but Ruby isn't half bad, and does some things
well that Tcl isn't good at (and vice versa), like OO, and, I have to
admit after years of Tcl, having some syntax can be nice at times:-)
In any case, though... I *am* still committed to helping out with
Rivet here and there, but if other people want to see anything happen
with it, they are going to have to step up and work on it.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On 24 Jan 2007, at 20:00, Hicks, Robert wrote:
> I don't mind XOTcl at all, except it is IMO a monster to learn
> where Snit is much more Tcl'ish. I wouldn't care either way though.
> If someone did something in XOTcl I would learn it just to use Tcl
> in a web context.
Well, XOTcl has a lot in it, but you can start from basics and just
stick with that. You really don't need filters and mixins in day-to-
day OO operations. Of course once you do need them, they're most
valuable.
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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RE: The state of Rivet?
Posted by "Hicks, Robert" <ro...@uscg.mil>.
I don't mind XOTcl at all, except it is IMO a monster to learn where Snit is much more Tcl'ish. I wouldn't care either way though. If someone did something in XOTcl I would learn it just to use Tcl in a web context.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: rivet-dev-return-1649-BHicks=osc.uscg.mil@tcl.apache.org [mailto:rivet-
>dev-return-1649-BHicks=osc.uscg.mil@tcl.apache.org] On Behalf Of Damon
>Courtney
>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:57 PM
>To: rivet-dev@tcl.apache.org
>Subject: Re: The state of Rivet?
>
> Believe me when I say that there is nothing I would love more than
>something to get excited about in the Tcl community. I continue to use
>Tcl for most all of my projects because I love it so much. I've gotten
>so used to the things that Tcl does so well that it's hard for me to use
>another language that lacks those features. Of course, it's been a
>while since I did any web development, which is an area where Tcl has,
>unfortunately, fallen behind the rest of the world.
>
> I really think XOTcl is the best OO framework though. It would be
>really easy to write a SNIT wrapper on top of it but still provide the
>inheritance OO model the rest of the world is used to. A really good
>web framework (with good AJAX integration) would do wonders for the Tcl
>community, I think.
>
> Remember, hardly anyone (outside of Japan) used Ruby before Rails
>came along. Even though Ruby had been around for a long time. Rails
>gave it a new lease on life. The web is where all the programming is
>these days. We have a unique position to make something great in that
>arena, but it takes hands and minds. Most of the ones on this project
>have given up and moved on.
>
>D
>
>
>Hicks, Robert wrote:
>> The problem with most of the current ones is they suck when running under
>CGI. Catalyst (Perl), Mason (Perl), RoR (Ruby) all have poor performance under
>CGI and that is where you are going to get most ISP hosting companies to help
>you. If they don't have to much about with Apache but just install
>Tcl+tcllib+whatever they are more likely to do so.
>>
>> So maybe coming from the bottom end (CGI and FCGI) would help. I have heard
>and read that FCGI is getting more of the Apache teams attention these days.
>You could marry Tcl+Snit+ORM into a framework and that would be pretty nice.
>RoR is OO and that is where you are getting people. At least with Snit you can
>give them a delegation model (which should work pretty well in a web
>environment).
>>
>> It has to be easy to install, easy to come up to speed on, and at least
>excite the current Tcl community into helping in various ways.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
Believe me when I say that there is nothing I would love more than
something to get excited about in the Tcl community. I continue to use
Tcl for most all of my projects because I love it so much. I've gotten
so used to the things that Tcl does so well that it's hard for me to use
another language that lacks those features. Of course, it's been a
while since I did any web development, which is an area where Tcl has,
unfortunately, fallen behind the rest of the world.
I really think XOTcl is the best OO framework though. It would be
really easy to write a SNIT wrapper on top of it but still provide the
inheritance OO model the rest of the world is used to. A really good
web framework (with good AJAX integration) would do wonders for the Tcl
community, I think.
Remember, hardly anyone (outside of Japan) used Ruby before Rails
came along. Even though Ruby had been around for a long time. Rails
gave it a new lease on life. The web is where all the programming is
these days. We have a unique position to make something great in that
arena, but it takes hands and minds. Most of the ones on this project
have given up and moved on.
D
Hicks, Robert wrote:
> The problem with most of the current ones is they suck when running under CGI. Catalyst (Perl), Mason (Perl), RoR (Ruby) all have poor performance under CGI and that is where you are going to get most ISP hosting companies to help you. If they don't have to much about with Apache but just install Tcl+tcllib+whatever they are more likely to do so.
>
> So maybe coming from the bottom end (CGI and FCGI) would help. I have heard and read that FCGI is getting more of the Apache teams attention these days. You could marry Tcl+Snit+ORM into a framework and that would be pretty nice. RoR is OO and that is where you are getting people. At least with Snit you can give them a delegation model (which should work pretty well in a web environment).
>
> It has to be easy to install, easy to come up to speed on, and at least excite the current Tcl community into helping in various ways.
>
> Robert
>
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RE: The state of Rivet?
Posted by "Hicks, Robert" <ro...@uscg.mil>.
Oh, and marry it to a good AJAX library.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: robert.l.hicks@uscg.mil [mailto:robert.l.hicks@uscg.mil]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:52 PM
>To: rivet-dev@tcl.apache.org
>Subject: RE: The state of Rivet?
>
>The problem with most of the current ones is they suck when running under CGI.
>Catalyst (Perl), Mason (Perl), RoR (Ruby) all have poor performance under CGI
>and that is where you are going to get most ISP hosting companies to help you.
>If they don't have to much about with Apache but just install
>Tcl+tcllib+whatever they are more likely to do so.
>
>So maybe coming from the bottom end (CGI and FCGI) would help. I have heard
>and read that FCGI is getting more of the Apache teams attention these days.
>You could marry Tcl+Snit+ORM into a framework and that would be pretty nice.
>RoR is OO and that is where you are getting people. At least with Snit you can
>give them a delegation model (which should work pretty well in a web
>environment).
>
>It has to be easy to install, easy to come up to speed on, and at least excite
>the current Tcl community into helping in various ways.
>
>Robert
>
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RE: The state of Rivet?
Posted by "Hicks, Robert" <ro...@uscg.mil>.
The problem with most of the current ones is they suck when running under CGI. Catalyst (Perl), Mason (Perl), RoR (Ruby) all have poor performance under CGI and that is where you are going to get most ISP hosting companies to help you. If they don't have to much about with Apache but just install Tcl+tcllib+whatever they are more likely to do so.
So maybe coming from the bottom end (CGI and FCGI) would help. I have heard and read that FCGI is getting more of the Apache teams attention these days. You could marry Tcl+Snit+ORM into a framework and that would be pretty nice. RoR is OO and that is where you are getting people. At least with Snit you can give them a delegation model (which should work pretty well in a web environment).
It has to be easy to install, easy to come up to speed on, and at least excite the current Tcl community into helping in various ways.
Robert
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, Damon Courtney wrote:
> Well, there's nothing I can do about that except try and promote it
> myself, and it's hard to keep promoting something that no one seems to care
> about. I just use it because I love it.
Oh, don't give up on that. Pythoners pushed their language through very
much by the force of promotion alone. I try to never give up an
opportunity to let people know how great Tcl is :-)
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
David Welton wrote:
> And even that still isn't really as good as Tcl's. They don't do
> threads very well either. But boy do they have momentum, and that's a
> fun change. Even Tcl, as you say, doesn't get noticed much. Why
> would it, though... from the core team on down, no one promotes it,
> nor have they for years. When is the last time any of the core guys
> went to speak at an open source conference, or wrote an article or
> "blog" or anything else to prove that the language still exists?
Well, there's nothing I can do about that except try and promote it
myself, and it's hard to keep promoting something that no one seems to
care about. I just use it because I love it.
Doesn't make me want to use Tcl any less. The reason I have an
interest in creating a Rails-like framework in Tcl is because I think
Tcl is a better language for the job (with XOTcl included). I'm not
afraid to learn a new language. I do think it would be a big task with
not a lot of help though.
Damon
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@dedasys.com>.
On 1/23/07, Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com> wrote:
> And, by the way, in defense of Tcl, the new Rails release JUST got
> Unicode support! Wahoo! Those guys are smokin'.
And even that still isn't really as good as Tcl's. They don't do
threads very well either. But boy do they have momentum, and that's a
fun change. Even Tcl, as you say, doesn't get noticed much. Why
would it, though... from the core team on down, no one promotes it,
nor have they for years. When is the last time any of the core guys
went to speak at an open source conference, or wrote an article or
"blog" or anything else to prove that the language still exists?
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
And, by the way, in defense of Tcl, the new Rails release JUST got
Unicode support! Wahoo! Those guys are smokin'.
D
David Welton wrote:
>> Having looked at Ruby on Rails, I don't see anything so spectacular
>> that it couldn't be done in Tcl. Tcl was made for this kind of stuff.
>> It just takes work and the hands to do it, and those seem to be in
>> pretty short supply. In part due to lack of time, and in part due to
>> lack of interest.
>
> RoR is a lot of good practices all rolled into one. Tcl could
> definitely do most of what it does, although it does fall down pretty
> badly in terms of OO due to the lack of garbage collection. The thing
> about RoR is that it has a ton of people working on it and with it, so
> there is really no competition unless you can improve on it by an
> order of magnitude (as RoR did in some ways with PHP and Java). Just
> equalling what they've done isn't enough any more, because no one
> cares about Tcl.
>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Kristoffer Lawson <se...@fishpool.com>.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, Damon Courtney wrote:
> We'd never be able to compete with the freight train that is Rails.
> There's too much a push for it. But, before Rails, Java was king of the
> heap. The mountain can change at any time and without warning. Someone just
> has to decide to change it.
I absolutely believe in doing something just because you want to, and you
have ideas how to do with it. My language of choice is Tcl and while I
don't get to use it as much as I'd like to, I do have a lot of interest in
seeing frameworks and software being developed for it. That helps me and
perhaps I can help in my own ways too.
/ http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
Basically, you're right. The only way to get people to work on a
technology is to get interest in it. Tcl doesn't have much interest
these days, and Tcl on the web has none, so getting any of this to work
would be a lot of thankless work for a group of people who just have a
desire to do it.
We'd never be able to compete with the freight train that is Rails.
There's too much a push for it. But, before Rails, Java was king of the
heap. The mountain can change at any time and without warning. Someone
just has to decide to change it.
Damon
> RoR is a lot of good practices all rolled into one. Tcl could
> definitely do most of what it does, although it does fall down pretty
> badly in terms of OO due to the lack of garbage collection. The thing
> about RoR is that it has a ton of people working on it and with it, so
> there is really no competition unless you can improve on it by an
> order of magnitude (as RoR did in some ways with PHP and Java). Just
> equalling what they've done isn't enough any more, because no one
> cares about Tcl.
>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by David Welton <da...@dedasys.com>.
> Having looked at Ruby on Rails, I don't see anything so spectacular
> that it couldn't be done in Tcl. Tcl was made for this kind of stuff.
> It just takes work and the hands to do it, and those seem to be in
> pretty short supply. In part due to lack of time, and in part due to
> lack of interest.
RoR is a lot of good practices all rolled into one. Tcl could
definitely do most of what it does, although it does fall down pretty
badly in terms of OO due to the lack of garbage collection. The thing
about RoR is that it has a ton of people working on it and with it, so
there is really no competition unless you can improve on it by an
order of magnitude (as RoR did in some ways with PHP and Java). Just
equalling what they've done isn't enough any more, because no one
cares about Tcl.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
> Having started the port of Rivet 2.0, I have to admit that I don't
> have the time for it as well anymore.
>
> But lately I thought about it, especially the restructuring issue. And
> I thought it could be considered to put a new version of Rivet on top
> of mod_tcl. Mod_tcl does bridge between Apache and Tcl, and it works
> for Apache 2 as well. It also works on windows - some time ago I spent
> an afternoon to port and compile it with Visual studio for Apache 2.2.
> Maintaining mod_tcl and adapting it for new Apache versions is easy,
> just because mod_tcl is very small and easy in terms of functionality.
> It's basically a low level binding for the Apache API - not less and
> not more.
>
> So what Rivet essentially does is parsing the Tcl code in .rvt files
> and I wonder if this could be implemented in pure Tcl on top of
> mod_tcl? The advantage would be to have a low level layer in between
> Rivet and apache. This makes abstraction easier and if something
> changes in Apache, the only work would be to adapt it in mod_tcl.
> Rivet would not be affected. Also, the big picture could be that it is
> possible to run Rivet on top of tclhttpd or AOLServer.....
At this point, I would love to see Rivet become a web framework that
can sit on top of AOLServer, tclhttpd, or mod_tcl (with the
aforementioned work involved). I think we all have enough web building
experience to make something really cool that can sit on top of any of
these implementations. That would be my goal anyway.
Having looked at Ruby on Rails, I don't see anything so spectacular
that it couldn't be done in Tcl. Tcl was made for this kind of stuff.
It just takes work and the hands to do it, and those seem to be in
pretty short supply. In part due to lack of time, and in part due to
lack of interest.
Unless you have a truly dedicated team to work on a project, they
typically tend to flounder because what is there basically works well
enough, and other people don't have any more time than the people who've
already moved on.
> Just some thoughts for someone who likes to dig into this - I would,
> but I can not guarantee that (resp. when) I'll have the time for it.
If, and when, the time comes, we'll see what happens. 0-]
Damon
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Eckhard Lehmann <ec...@web.de>.
Damon Courtney schrieb:
> It's sad, but it won't be the first project to fall by the
> wayside. Especially not in the Tcl world. Personally, I'd like to
> see a final 1.0 release put out. Maybe someday, someone will come
> along and pick it up. In the meantime, it doesn't mean you can't or
> shouldn't continue using it for production / development code. It's
> perfectly capable in its current form, and it's easily extended with
> Tcl extensions.
>
> How much more do you really need from Rivet itself? It's just a
> bridge between Apache and Tcl. It just doesn't bridge between Apache
> 2.x and Tcl. I guess that's the big lacking feature.
Having started the port of Rivet 2.0, I have to admit that I don't have
the time for it as well anymore.
But lately I thought about it, especially the restructuring issue. And I
thought it could be considered to put a new version of Rivet on top of
mod_tcl. Mod_tcl does bridge between Apache and Tcl, and it works for
Apache 2 as well. It also works on windows - some time ago I spent an
afternoon to port and compile it with Visual studio for Apache 2.2.
Maintaining mod_tcl and adapting it for new Apache versions is easy,
just because mod_tcl is very small and easy in terms of functionality.
It's basically a low level binding for the Apache API - not less and not
more.
So what Rivet essentially does is parsing the Tcl code in .rvt files and
I wonder if this could be implemented in pure Tcl on top of mod_tcl? The
advantage would be to have a low level layer in between Rivet and
apache. This makes abstraction easier and if something changes in
Apache, the only work would be to adapt it in mod_tcl. Rivet would not
be affected. Also, the big picture could be that it is possible to run
Rivet on top of tclhttpd or AOLServer.....
Just some thoughts for someone who likes to dig into this - I would, but
I can not guarantee that (resp. when) I'll have the time for it.
Eckhard
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
Honestly, as fantastic as I think Rivet is, I myself have started
doing my Tcl development in AOLServer. At least in experimentation.
Rivet is basically dead without an Apache 2.x port, and I don't see any
developers with the time to volunteer to make this happen. I certainly
lack the time.
It's sad, but it won't be the first project to fall by the wayside.
Especially not in the Tcl world. Personally, I'd like to see a final
1.0 release put out. Maybe someday, someone will come along and pick it
up. In the meantime, it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't continue
using it for production / development code. It's perfectly capable in
its current form, and it's easily extended with Tcl extensions.
How much more do you really need from Rivet itself? It's just a
bridge between Apache and Tcl. It just doesn't bridge between Apache
2.x and Tcl. I guess that's the big lacking feature.
Damon
> <IMHO>
> Having said this, I *LOVE* Rivet, and really enjoy developing with it,
> but
> given David's new found love of Ruby/Rails, I believe that unless someone
> else stands up to do an Apache 2.x port, and keep the development
> emphasis
> going, Rivet is a dead end. While this saddens me, and I won't likely
> use Rivet for any more commercial development (unless things change),
> it really and truly is a useful and intuitive tool for the Tcl
> knowledgeable web developer.
> </IMHO>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by Rob Sciuk <ro...@controlq.com>.
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, GoMp@tcl.no wrote:
> Mikhail T. wrote:
>> Hi, David, others!
>>
>> I'd like to make a port of Rivet to FreeBSD (I'm currently maintaining the
>> mod_dtcl port). The most recent release of the software appears stuck at
>> 0.5.0, which is not compiling against Apache-2.2.
>>
>> It appears, that the 0.7.0 was released over a year ago, but there are no
>> sources -- only binaries (for Windows).
>>
>> What is the current state? How far off is a 2.2-compatible release?
>>
>> Is the project abandoned/withering and we should all look at websh instead?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -mi
>
> This would be of interest for me as well. I've bothered this list several
> times because of install problems with Rivet on FreeBSD. A port would make
> the whole issue a lot simpler.
>
> -JC
>
I recently took the subversion 1.0 release, and using the notes provided
in FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE, compiled against Apache 1.3 using the the following
script to configure:
export AUTOHEADER=autoheader259
export AUTOCONF=autoconf259
export AUTOMAKE=automake19
export ACLOCAL=aclocal19
aclocal19
autoheader259
automake19
autoconf259
./configure --with-tcl=/usr/local/lib --with-tclinclude=/usr/local/include \
--with-apxs=/usr/local/sbin/apxs --with-apache=/usr/local/etc/apache
This apache was from the ports (pkg_add -r??), and I had hand built 8.4.14
myself. I believe I had to pkg_add some of the auto tools as well, but the
build seems to have worked pretty well.
<IMHO>
Having said this, I *LOVE* Rivet, and really enjoy developing with it, but
given David's new found love of Ruby/Rails, I believe that unless someone
else stands up to do an Apache 2.x port, and keep the development emphasis
going, Rivet is a dead end. While this saddens me, and I won't likely use
Rivet for any more commercial development (unless things change), it really
and truly is a useful and intuitive tool for the Tcl knowledgeable web
developer.
</IMHO>
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Re: The state of Rivet?
Posted by "GoMp@tcl.no" <go...@tcl.no>.
Mikhail T. wrote:
> Hi, David, others!
>
> I'd like to make a port of Rivet to FreeBSD (I'm currently maintaining the
> mod_dtcl port). The most recent release of the software appears stuck at
> 0.5.0, which is not compiling against Apache-2.2.
>
> It appears, that the 0.7.0 was released over a year ago, but there are no
> sources -- only binaries (for Windows).
>
> What is the current state? How far off is a 2.2-compatible release?
>
> Is the project abandoned/withering and we should all look at websh instead?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -mi
This would be of interest for me as well. I've bothered this list
several times because of install problems with Rivet on FreeBSD. A port
would make the whole issue a lot simpler.
-JC
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