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Posted to user@ode.apache.org by "Andres P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar> on 2008/10/24 21:48:35 UTC

Ode Review

Hi,

My name is Andres. I'm currently writing a comparison about open source
BPEL engines. I was reviewing the info in your website and published
documentation, and there are several things that I couldn't find info about.
I'd like to know if I can ask here, or should I write to anyone else
about this issues.

Regards,

-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Ode Review

Posted by "Andres P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar>.
Hi Sandro,

No yet. I hope to have something for the end of the week. I will gladly
send it to you.

> Hi Andrés,
> 
> I'm interested in your comparison of the engines. Is there a draft
> already (publicly) available?
> 

-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Ode Review

Posted by Alex Boisvert <bo...@intalio.com>.
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:05 AM, Andrés P. Ferrando <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:

> Process Versioning
> There's something that's not clear for me: what happens with running
> instances? If you just replace process, there'll be unexpected results
> several times.


Existing instances continue to run to completion, unaffected.

New instances are started using the latest (activated) version.


> About roadmap and new releases: this are great news! I think it's really
> important for a project to publish this, so people stays tunned for things
> that are expecting.


Agreed!

alex

Re: Ode Review

Posted by "Andrés P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar>.
Alex,

Thanks a lot for the info.

Process Versioning
There's something that's not clear for me: what happens with running
instances? If you just replace process, there'll be unexpected results
several times.

Human Tasks
Yes, I know it, and it's a great project! I'll add a link to Tempo.

About roadmap and new releases: this are great news! I think it's really
important for a project to publish this, so people stays tunned for things
that are expecting.

Regards,

> Andres,
>
> Some quick comments and links for further information:
>
> Process Versioning
> http://ode.apache.org/user-guide.html#UserGuide-Versioning
>
> Human Tasks
> Tempo <http://tempo.intalio.org> is driving towards BPEL4People support
> with
> full Apache Ode integration.
>
> Transactions
> Ode (trunk version, not yet released but relatively stable) supports
> atomic
> transactions.  Our hope is to release version 2.0 (from trunk) this year.
> http://ode.apache.org/atomic-scopes-extension-for-bpel.html
>
> Management APIs
> The PM API is also published with the JBI IL as native JBI endpoints.
> It's
> the same WSDL interface as with Axis2.  Some evidence here:
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/ode/branches/APACHE_ODE_1.X/jbi/src/main/java/org/apache/ode/jbi/OdeContext.java
> We also have a management console in progress, and should be part of
> version
> 1.3 (also planned for this year)
>
> Roadmap
> The roadmap is discussed and updated every year during ApacheCon, which is
> next week :)
> Outstanding work can also be derived from Jira enhancements.
>
> alex
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Andres P. Ferrando
> <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:
>
>> Hi Sandro,
>>
>> You can find now the first draft at
>> http://www.pruna.com.ar/?articulos/bpel_engines_oss_review/en/index
>> I hope to be able to complete the missing parts of the draft this week,
>> and then correct all missing or wrong stuff. :)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sandro Reichert wrote:
>> > Hi Andrés,
>> >
>> > I'm interested in your comparison of the engines. Is there a draft
>> > already (publicly) available?
>> >
>> >> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates
>> are
>> >> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
>> >> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
>> >>
>> >> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer
>> which
>> >> things are done, and what's next?
>> >>
>> >> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.
>> >
>> > Dates would be very useful!
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Sandro
>> >
>>
>> --
>>    Andrés P. Ferrando
>> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
>>
>


-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Ode Review

Posted by Alex Boisvert <bo...@intalio.com>.
Andres,

Some quick comments and links for further information:

Process Versioning
http://ode.apache.org/user-guide.html#UserGuide-Versioning

Human Tasks
Tempo <http://tempo.intalio.org> is driving towards BPEL4People support with
full Apache Ode integration.

Transactions
Ode (trunk version, not yet released but relatively stable) supports atomic
transactions.  Our hope is to release version 2.0 (from trunk) this year.
http://ode.apache.org/atomic-scopes-extension-for-bpel.html

Management APIs
The PM API is also published with the JBI IL as native JBI endpoints.  It's
the same WSDL interface as with Axis2.  Some evidence here:
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/ode/branches/APACHE_ODE_1.X/jbi/src/main/java/org/apache/ode/jbi/OdeContext.java
We also have a management console in progress, and should be part of version
1.3 (also planned for this year)

Roadmap
The roadmap is discussed and updated every year during ApacheCon, which is
next week :)
Outstanding work can also be derived from Jira enhancements.

alex


On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Andres P. Ferrando <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:

> Hi Sandro,
>
> You can find now the first draft at
> http://www.pruna.com.ar/?articulos/bpel_engines_oss_review/en/index
> I hope to be able to complete the missing parts of the draft this week,
> and then correct all missing or wrong stuff. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Sandro Reichert wrote:
> > Hi Andrés,
> >
> > I'm interested in your comparison of the engines. Is there a draft
> > already (publicly) available?
> >
> >> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
> >> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
> >> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
> >>
> >> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
> >> things are done, and what's next?
> >>
> >> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.
> >
> > Dates would be very useful!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Sandro
> >
>
> --
>    Andrés P. Ferrando
> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
>

Re: Ode Review

Posted by "Andres P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar>.
Hi Sandro,

You can find now the first draft at
http://www.pruna.com.ar/?articulos/bpel_engines_oss_review/en/index
I hope to be able to complete the missing parts of the draft this week,
and then correct all missing or wrong stuff. :)

Regards,

Sandro Reichert wrote:
> Hi Andrés,
> 
> I'm interested in your comparison of the engines. Is there a draft
> already (publicly) available?
> 
>> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
>> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
>> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
>>
>> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
>> things are done, and what's next?
>>
>> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.
> 
> Dates would be very useful!
> 
> Cheers,
> Sandro
> 

-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Ode Review

Posted by Sandro Reichert <re...@rn.inf.tu-dresden.de>.
Hi Andrés,

I'm interested in your comparison of the engines. Is there a draft 
already (publicly) available?

> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
>
> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
> things are done, and what's next?
> 
> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.

Dates would be very useful!

Cheers,
Sandro

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is
believed to be clean.

Re: Ode Review

Posted by "Andres P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar>.
>> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
>> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
>> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
>>
> 
> I usually try to put dates in the news section of the main page although it
> seems we haven't for the last 3 events. I've just added dates for the
> releases. As for the roadmap we usually never put dates or estimates there.
> It's highly dependent on who volunteers.

I saw the dates, thanks.
About the roadmap, I understand what you mean. I just think that in
these situations, dates are clearly just indicators. But it be really
useful for people to understand priorities, and have a rough idea about
what's probably coming.

>> I see the project more focused on the core BPEL engine, and not that
>> much in enterprise features (like Human Task support, clustering,
>> security, transactions)
>>
> 
> Not necessarily. Although historically we've tried to do BPEL right before
> implementing enterprise features. But now we have a task manager that's
> taking shape in the sandbox (
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/ode/sandbox/singleshot/), support for
> several security features has been gradually improved (a recent commit added
> WS-Security with Rampart) and I think Karthick is working on transaction
> propagation and atomic scopes (note that we've had transaction support in
> the engine since day 1).

Ok, this are great news. And it's also what I've pointed out. I think
that people watching at the project will be very interested in know
about all this (and again, it's not a commitment, nor a deadline, just
useful info).
When you talk about transaction support you mean using the internal DB,
right? I mean more the kind of transactional interaction with other parties.

>> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
>> things are done, and what's next?
> 
> We should work on that.
> 
> 
>>
>> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.
>>
>> Do you know about any company providing commercial support?
>>
> 
> I know Intalio does. I've heard of a couple of other names but I don't know
> what's their respective status so I'll let them speak for themselves.

Ok. Yes, I've been looking at this project since some time now. There's
also a kind of subproject in there called Tempo that looks very promising.

One more question: have you been looking at the PVM (Process Virtual
Machine,
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2007/05/07/the-process-virtual-machine.html)?
As a brief intro, it's the "core" for jBPM, Orchestra, and other process
engines.

Thanks a lot!

-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Re: Ode Review

Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Andres P. Ferrando <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:

> Hi Matthieu,
>
> Ok, thanks! The documentation is mostly clear enough. It's also very
> important that you point out missing stuff also.
>
> The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
> really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
> when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).
>

I usually try to put dates in the news section of the main page although it
seems we haven't for the last 3 events. I've just added dates for the
releases. As for the roadmap we usually never put dates or estimates there.
It's highly dependent on who volunteers.


>
> I see the project more focused on the core BPEL engine, and not that
> much in enterprise features (like Human Task support, clustering,
> security, transactions)
>

Not necessarily. Although historically we've tried to do BPEL right before
implementing enterprise features. But now we have a task manager that's
taking shape in the sandbox (
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/ode/sandbox/singleshot/), support for
several security features has been gradually improved (a recent commit added
WS-Security with Rampart) and I think Karthick is working on transaction
propagation and atomic scopes (note that we've had transaction support in
the engine since day 1).


>
> Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
> things are done, and what's next?


We should work on that.


>
>
> I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.
>
> Do you know about any company providing commercial support?
>

I know Intalio does. I've heard of a couple of other names but I don't know
what's their respective status so I'll let them speak for themselves.

Cheers,
Matthieu


>
> Regards,
>
>
> Matthieu Riou wrote:
> > Hi Andres,
> >
> > Here is the right place. It's actually interesting to know which
> information
> > is missing.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Matthieu
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Andres P. Ferrando <
> andres@pruna.com.ar>wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> My name is Andres. I'm currently writing a comparison about open source
> >> BPEL engines. I was reviewing the info in your website and published
> >> documentation, and there are several things that I couldn't find info
> >> about.
> >> I'd like to know if I can ask here, or should I write to anyone else
> >> about this issues.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> --
> >>   Andrés P. Ferrando
> >> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
> >>
> >
>
> --
>    Andrés P. Ferrando
> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
>

Re: Re: Ode Review

Posted by "Andres P. Ferrando" <an...@pruna.com.ar>.
Hi Matthieu,

Ok, thanks! The documentation is mostly clear enough. It's also very
important that you point out missing stuff also.

The main thing missing in project documentation is dates. This dates are
really useful to see project's health (how it's growing), and to know
when to expect new stuff (for example, cluster support).

I see the project more focused on the core BPEL engine, and not that
much in enterprise features (like Human Task support, clustering,
security, transactions)

Is there also any way to organize the roadmap, so it'll be clearer which
things are done, and what's next?

I couldn't find info about release history or release plan.

Do you know about any company providing commercial support?

Regards,


Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Hi Andres,
> 
> Here is the right place. It's actually interesting to know which information
> is missing.
> 
> Cheers,
> Matthieu
> 
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Andres P. Ferrando <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> My name is Andres. I'm currently writing a comparison about open source
>> BPEL engines. I was reviewing the info in your website and published
>> documentation, and there are several things that I couldn't find info
>> about.
>> I'd like to know if I can ask here, or should I write to anyone else
>> about this issues.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>>   Andrés P. Ferrando
>> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
>>
> 

-- 
   Andrés P. Ferrando
http://www.pruna.com.ar/

Re: Ode Review

Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
Hi Andres,

Here is the right place. It's actually interesting to know which information
is missing.

Cheers,
Matthieu

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Andres P. Ferrando <an...@pruna.com.ar>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My name is Andres. I'm currently writing a comparison about open source
> BPEL engines. I was reviewing the info in your website and published
> documentation, and there are several things that I couldn't find info
> about.
> I'd like to know if I can ask here, or should I write to anyone else
> about this issues.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>   Andrés P. Ferrando
> http://www.pruna.com.ar/
>