Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> I don't think that Avalon has any right to have a stranglehold on all
> service frameworks.  

Andrew:

The Avalon community very aware of the the different approaches that 
exist.  If your following the Avalon dev list you would be aware of 
ongoing discussions concerning different approaches in the 
container/component space - the benefits and disadvantages, emergent 
opportunities, brick-walls, etc.

> I also must say that I hate the "come discuss this in
> 'our' house" approach to collaboration.

I'm surprised that you feel this way.  If you were subscribed to Avalon 
dev you would have been aware of discussions concerning HiveMind before 
the subject came up here.  Several members were discussing this subject 
at a technical level that would not make sense on this list.  My 
invitation to Howard (that seems to have offended you for reasons that I 
don't understand) was based on the interests in getting some thoughts 
from the Howard and other members of the HiveMind community on aspect 
relating to collaboration with Avalon.  Perhaps we have different ideas 
on what that means - for me at least is about sharing ideas and talking 
- its not (as you suggest) a notion of territory to be protected.

I hope that Howard or other members of the HiveMind team take up that 
invitation because there is potential synergy.


> One size does not fit all and
> Avalon has shown over the years that this is especially true for it.  


Interestingly, the activities over on avalon over the past year have 
been addressing many of the deeper issues implied by you conclusion. 
What does one size mean?  Is size adaptive?  How does one deliver the 
the parametrized solution that best fits the size that is needed?  All 
of these question are being addressed within Avalon today. I also happen 
to to think that Howard and the HiveMind team could contribute to that 
and I also think that the more recent work in Avalon could contribute to 
HimeMind.

> I say
> that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he
> wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally,
> I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
> Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if
> his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage
> him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.


Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a 
number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful 
that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of 
opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise 
(just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the 
content and knowlege from the HiveMind team).  As far as I can se the 
question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no 
discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon.

I think  it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual 
interests - don't you?

Stephen.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org

Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
>>
>>What I would like to do is to hear from Howard himself (or anyone 
>>working on the HiveMind project)!  I'm particularly interested in how 
>>Avalon can leverage some of the technologies in HiveMind, and I'm 
>>equally confident in the ability of Avalon to provide 
>>value-add to the HimeMind project - and I'm not talking about 
 >>classic avalon component interfaces - I'm talking about generic
 >>container-side facilities.
>>
>>The is a potential for mutual benefit.
>>Isn't that worth exploring?
> 
> 
> I aggree with Andy's comments below ... you can't "incubate" HiveMind 
 > inside Avalon. My Blob (http://javatapestry.blogspot.com) discusses
> this as well, with some other insights (partly into my own neuroticism).

Just a point of clarification.  Avalon is *not* going to incubate 
anything.  HiveMind *will not exist* inside Avalon.  This is simply 
because Avalon is not engaging in multi-container incubation - period. 
What Avalon is doing - and what is relevant to your initative and Avalon 
- it the work going on towards the delivery of a set of common container 
facilities.  There is potential for HimeMind to leverage this and for 
Avalon to leverage content in HiveMind with respect to this viewpoint 
and only this viewpoint.

> 
> 
> 
>>Avalon is a community - and within that community is an effort to 
>>harmonize different directions in component models taking 
>>into account the differences across internal development, and 
 >>external iniatives. HiveMind is another aspect in that picture.
 >>This means more potential, leveraged code, skills, knowledge,
 >>users, etc.  I happen to think that there is potential in getting
 >>together and talking about things like leverage, synergy, projects,
 >>etc.
> 
> 
> I've considered HiveMind an experiment, and experiment that 
 > concludes when the community is formed and the code is mature.
 > The nature of open source and the ASL is very fluid; the best
 > ideas from HiveMind can be cherry-picked from the mature
> codebase. What I'm nervous about is bringing HiveMind
> into Avalon and mucking up other people's code with my vision.


Let me make something real clear!!!!

A HiveMind product will not land in Avalon. Period. Full-stop. 
Will-not-happen.  Get this notion of HiveMind in Avalon of you mind 
forever.  Can HiveMind contribute to what is happening in Avalon - yes. 
Is this clear to everyone on this list?  Avalon is not a resting place 
for a particular container project.  Avalon is not about incubation. 
HiveMind will not be some subproject in Avalon. I will not happen! Take 
my word for it. And this has nothing to do with HiveMind content - its 
simply a question concerning the strategy in Avalon.  The stategy is not 
about multiple containers - its not even about a single container.  Its 
about the contract and the framework for solutions.

I hope that helps clarify things a touch.  Sorry  if I sound like I'm 
repating myself but I'm kind of anoyed with some of the miss-information 
that has been floating around here recently!

;-)


> 
> 
>>>While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
>>>building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not 
>>>ready for Avalon either.  I would be against its entry into 
 >>>Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard would propose it).  However,
 >>>I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta commons or some
 >>>place appropriate for starting a community.
>>>
>>> Obviously it should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta 
 >>> project.  Howard is obviously now qualified to sponsor it in
 >>> the incubator himself (as I've pretty much vowed never to
 >>> incubate anything ever again,
>>>
>>>I'd rather focus my efforts outside of Apache than go through 
 >>>that quagmire of bureaucratic procedure again**).
> 
> 
> Well, the incubator will be a challenge but there will be explicit rules for leaving incubation and
> I won't tolerate the incubators going beyond their mandate. The mandate is to show an active
> community working together and to ensure that there are no IP problems in HiveMind or its depdendant
> libraries. We will ensure that the mandate and exit rules are explicit before we start. 

Agreed.

Those procedures have been develped with the principal of holding the 
Incubator PMC accountable step by step from the point of view of people 
aiming to exit incubation.  The procedures should help make an exit 
rapid and successful.


> 
>>Howard - can you do me a favour and kick of a thread actually 
>>detailing what we want - and throw into it what you think or don't 
>>think  should be your relationship with Avalon.  Please keep in mind that 
>>everything I've seen so far suggests that you have a 12-18 out-of-date 
>>picture of what avalon is and what avalon is doing - and I want to clear 
>>that up. I suggested you post a message on dev@avalon as part of the 
>>process. I still think that that the right place to discuss this.
> 
> 
> I have a backlog of avalon-dev mail to catch up on.


No problem.
Don't hesitate to jump in with questions.

> 
>>As an Avalon principal, I can assure you that Avalon is not a 
>>threat to >>the potential of an independent HiveMind project 
 >>(irrespective of Andrew's ideas of reality).  Start talking with
 >>us (here or there) and you may find an ally.
>>
> 
> 
> Of course, while the HiveMind IP fiasco resolves itself, I have some spare time to catch up. To be
> honest, one of the things that has been an issue for me is the Avalon documentation; many of my
> questions aren't resolved by the docs I could find, and I have been short on time for wading into
> the code.


If you have unresolved questions please post them to the dev list.  We 
(Avalon crowd) have recently updated the entire website.  So far 
feedback has been rather positive. You will not find much content on the 
  big picture - for that you really need to raise the relavent questions 
on the list.

Cheers, Steve.


> Howard



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org

RE: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

["Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@comcast.net>]

> > I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far 
> as I know Howard
> > is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring 
> as you say.  I see
> > no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish 
> Hivemind and
> > build a community.  

That's what is, in fact, surprising to me ... a small community for HiveMind formed pretty much
spontaneously. Like Tapestry, the bulk of the code is from me, but some very significant design
ideas, naming conventions and techniques have come form the community and/or been voted on by the
nascent community.

> 
> 
> What I would like to do is to hear from Howard himself (or anyone 
> working on the HiveMind project)!  I'm particularly interested in how 
> Avalon can leverage some of the technologies in HiveMind, and I'm 
> equally confident in the ability of Avalon to provide 
> value-add to the 
> HimeMind project - and I'm not talking about classic avalon component 
> interfaces - I'm talking about generic container-side facilities.
> 
> The is a potential for mutual benefit.
> Isn't that worth exploring?

I aggree with Andy's comments below ... you can't "incubate" HiveMind inside Avalon. My Blob
(http://javatapestry.blogspot.com) discusses this as well, with some other insights (partly into my
own neuroticism).


> 
> Avalon is a community - and within that community is an effort to 
> harmonize different directions in component models taking 
> into account 
> the differences across internal development, and external iniatives. 
> HiveMind is another aspect in that picture.  This means more 
> potential, 
> leveraged code, skills, knowledge, users, etc.  I happen to 
> think that 
> there is potential in getting together and talking about things like 
> leverage, synergy, projects, etc.

I've considered HiveMind an experiment, and experiment that concludes when the community is formed
and the code is mature. The nature of open source and the ASL is very fluid; the best ideas from
HiveMind can be cherry-picked from the mature codebase. What I'm nervous about is bringing HiveMind
into Avalon and mucking up other people's code with my vision.


> 
> > While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
> > building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not 
> ready for Avalon
> > either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and 
> I doubt Howard
> > would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry 
> at jakarta
> > commons or some place appropriate for starting a community. 
>  Obviously it
> > should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  
> Howard is
> > obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator 
> himself (as I've
> > pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, 
> I'd rather focus my
> > efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of 
> bureaucratic
> > procedure again**).

Well, the incubator will be a challenge but there will be explicit rules for leaving incubation and
I won't tolerate the incubators going beyond their mandate. The mandate is to show an active
community working together and to ensure that there are no IP problems in HiveMind or its depdendant
libraries. We will ensure that the mandate and exit rules are explicit before we start. 

> Howard - can you do me a favour and kick of a thread actually 
> detailing 
> what we want - and throw into it what you think or don't 
> think  should 
> be your relationship with Avalon.  Please keep in mind that 
> everything 
> I've seen so far suggests that you have a 12-18 out-of-date 
> picture of 
> what avalon is and what avalon is doing - and I want to clear 
> that up. 
> I suggested you post a message on dev@avalon as part of the 
> process. I 
> still think that that the right place to discuss this.

I have a backlog of avalon-dev mail to catch up on.

> 
> As an Avalon principal, I can assure you that Avalon is not a 
> threat to 
> the potential of an independent HiveMind project (irrespective of 
> Andrew's ideas of reality).  Start talking with us (here or 
> there) and 
> you may find an ally.
> 

Of course, while the HiveMind IP fiasco resolves itself, I have some spare time to catch up. To be
honest, one of the things that has been an issue for me is the Avalon documentation; many of my
questions aren't resolved by the docs I could find, and I have been short on time for wading into
the code.

Howard


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org

Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote in haste:
>>>I say
>>>that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he
>>>wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally,
>>>I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
>>>Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if
>>>his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage
>>>him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.
>>
>>
>>Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a
>>number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful
>>that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of
>>opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise
>>(just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the
>>content and knowlege from the HiveMind team).  As far as I can se the
>>question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no
>>discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon.
>>
>>I think  it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual
>>interests - don't you?
>>
> 
> 
> I feel a Jon coming on.  "Your itch not mine" -- However, after your private
> rants to (at?) me I kind of doubt how genuine this much more eloquent email
> is.  

LOL

Andrew, you stooping at little low even by your standards.

;-)


Don't worry, you'll get a chance to express your yourself!

But let's not miss the the question "I think it would be good to at 
least do some exploration of mutual interests - don't you?".  You claim 
is that this is my itch - not yours.  My claim is that this is a 
community itch - not something personal.

There is a potential benefit here!
Isn't this worth exploring?


> In truth, a rather virgin Hivemind would (ironically considering the
> name) be consumed by Avalon rather than affecting Avalon.


Maybe you may have a disconnected idea of what Avalon is and what it is 
doing.  If you take a look at the archives you will see some posts 
addressing the HimeMind project both before and after this thread was 
initiated.  What you will see is technical and community issues being 
raised and discussed.  One thing is clear - avalon is not a candidate 
incubator for HiveMind - avalon is about a single product.  Does that 
imply consumption?  Yes - if consumption were appropriate - the majority 
of opinion over at avalon is that it is not.


> You may find
> emailing me personally to be rather disappointing as I say pretty much the
> same things though sometimes more succinctly.  Personally, I feel your
> effort is more likely intent to prevent an alternative to Avalon.


You sinking down low again!

You made some assertions implying that Avalon considered itself as an 
only solution (you opinion). You went on presented a (weak) 
justification for that position.  My personal email to you expressed my 
personal opinion concerning, you inaccuracy of the assertions, my 
confusion pertaining to you justification, and my request for an 
explanation.

Instead of attempting to sidetrack the discussion around Andrew and his 
personal in-tray - lets focus on the HiveMind community and its 
role/relevance/synergy within the Apache community.  I figure that there 
is value to be gained - but value requires dialogue and interaction.

So far there has not been no dialogue nor interaction.
That's the issue to address today.


> I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard
> is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say.  I see
> no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and
> build a community.  


What I would like to do is to hear from Howard himself (or anyone 
working on the HiveMind project)!  I'm particularly interested in how 
Avalon can leverage some of the technologies in HiveMind, and I'm 
equally confident in the ability of Avalon to provide value-add to the 
HimeMind project - and I'm not talking about classic avalon component 
interfaces - I'm talking about generic container-side facilities.

The is a potential for mutual benefit.
Isn't that worth exploring?


> I do however apologize for attributing the email containing the following
> statement to you.  It was actually from Danny Angus, however the sentiment
> appears to coincide with yours wouldn't you agree?
> 
> "The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
> by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
> of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
> If you see what I mean."


No.

I personally don't look at Avalon as the end game.  Avalon is a 
community of people who happen to be focussed on this subject area. 
There is a lot of stuff happening in this domain.  Avalon is rapidly 
evolving and incorporating new ideas and solutions from users such as 
Dany (and hundreds of others) combined with multiple external projects 
in the same area.

Avalon is a community - and within that community is an effort to 
harmonize different directions in component models taking into account 
the differences across internal development, and external iniatives. 
HiveMind is another aspect in that picture.  This means more potential, 
leveraged code, skills, knowledge, users, etc.  I happen to think that 
there is potential in getting together and talking about things like 
leverage, synergy, projects, etc.


> The truth is that the Avalon "brand" is nothing to be sought while Jakarta
> is.  


That kind of conflicts with the information I have. If I look back over 
the last few months I'm seeing growth rates on end-user adoption close 
to 100% growth per month. I don't have details on "brand" awareness - 
but I do know that there are a large number of users that are finding 
substantive value in the solutions that Avalon provides.  From my point 
of view it seems that maybe avalon is doing something right with respect 
to the delivery of solutions.

But yes, I agree that they could do more on the brand management side.


> Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community
> more difficult.  

Please recognize that you and you alone are somewhat preoccupied with 
this notion of consumption by Avalon.  So lets move on from this and 
look at realities.

Avalon is not about hosting container X, container, Y, container Z. 
Instead avalon is dealing with the identification of real needs and 
resolution of how these needs can be addressed under a consistent 
component model. This does not explicitly exclude or embrace other 
initiatives - instead is a much more pragmatic process.  Stuff emerges, 
products evolve, value is delivered.  That process is interesting - and 
much more interesting than a particular product at a particular snapshot 
in time.

> While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
> building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon
> either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard
> would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta
> commons or some place appropriate for starting a community.  Obviously it
> should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  Howard is
> obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator himself (as I've
> pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, I'd rather focus my
> efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of bureaucratic
> procedure again**).
> 
> I do not see a reason while my stating this creates the level of personal
> angst for you that it more obviously did in your private mails to me nor do
> I see the need for the duplicity of posting a more frank and angry mail to
> me followed by one also on the list.  

ROTFL

I know that you can do a lot better than to criticize a project just 
because your not interested in. My "frank" comments (as you like to call 
them) were raising concerns that I had on what I perceived to be some 
basic misconceptions you had, apparently continue to hold, and are 
choosing to promote in a public forum.  I chose to direct that to you 
personally in order to understand where you are coming from (which in a 
round about way you have answered in your private replies to me - which 
as a matter of principal I will not disclose here).

Frankly, I don't think your winning any points by raising the subject of 
a private thread - but I do congratulate you on an valiant attempt at 
trying.

;-)

Bottom line - this thread isn't about your In-Tray - its about HiveMind 
and understanding how it can potentially mesh (or not mesh) with 
existing initiatives - and how it could be viable (or not viable) as a 
project here at Apache.

Howard - can you do me a favour and kick of a thread actually detailing 
what we want - and throw into it what you think or don't think  should 
be your relationship with Avalon.  Please keep in mind that everything 
I've seen so far suggests that you have a 12-18 out-of-date picture of 
what avalon is and what avalon is doing - and I want to clear that up. 
I suggested you post a message on dev@avalon as part of the process. I 
still think that that the right place to discuss this.

As an Avalon principal, I can assure you that Avalon is not a threat to 
the potential of an independent HiveMind project (irrespective of 
Andrew's ideas of reality).  Start talking with us (here or there) and 
you may find an ally.

Over to you.

Stephen.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org

Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

>> I say
>> that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he
>> wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally,
>> I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
>> Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if
>> his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage
>> him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.
> 
> 
> Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a
> number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful
> that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of
> opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise
> (just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the
> content and knowlege from the HiveMind team).  As far as I can se the
> question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no
> discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon.
> 
> I think  it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual
> interests - don't you?
>

I feel a Jon coming on.  "Your itch not mine" -- However, after your private
rants to (at?) me I kind of doubt how genuine this much more eloquent email
is.  In truth, a rather virgin Hivemind would (ironically considering the
name) be consumed by Avalon rather than affecting Avalon.  You may find
emailing me personally to be rather disappointing as I say pretty much the
same things though sometimes more succinctly.  Personally, I feel your
effort is more likely intent to prevent an alternative to Avalon.

I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard
is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say.  I see
no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and
build a community. 

I do however apologize for attributing the email containing the following
statement to you.  It was actually from Danny Angus, however the sentiment
appears to coincide with yours wouldn't you agree?

"The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
If you see what I mean."

The truth is that the Avalon "brand" is nothing to be sought while Jakarta
is.  Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community
more difficult.  While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon
either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard
would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta
commons or some place appropriate for starting a community.  Obviously it
should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  Howard is
obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator himself (as I've
pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, I'd rather focus my
efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of bureaucratic
procedure again**).

I do not see a reason while my stating this creates the level of personal
angst for you that it more obviously did in your private mails to me nor do
I see the need for the duplicity of posting a more frank and angry mail to
me followed by one also on the list.  I really don't have time for two
threads and am rather conceptually against the idea.  Though I suppose I
could combine my replies on-list if you prefer.

-Andy

** Although what a certain person did to avoid it was wrong although I can't
say anything about it as I don't think it was on the public list although it
damn well should have been.
 
> Stephen.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> 

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org