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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> on 2012/03/06 00:29:01 UTC
Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Hi,
During the February board meeting there was a discussion about what
the directors would like to see in Incubator reports. The feedback we
got on this ranged from providing just an "executive summary" of all
Incubator activity to doing that *and* including all the podling
reports. While there was no clear single message, the overall
impression I got was that the board expects the Incubator PMC to
provide better and more active oversight on podlings. At the same time
many directors also wanted to hear directly from the podlings
themselves.
After thinking about this for a while, here's what I think we should do:
First of all I think we should keep including the individual podling
reports in the Incubator board report. The main reason for doing this
is that I think we should get the podlings up to the habit of
reporting to the board instead of just to the IPMC right from the
beginning. The IPMC will provide extra review and feedback to help the
podlings, but ultimately all the reports are addressed to the ASF
board. This approach should also be in line with the ideas of scaling
back the the Incubator and making podlings more autonomous.
Second, to address concerns about oversight within the Incubator as a
whole and to provide enough information to directors who may not be
interested in all the details of individual podling reports, the IPMC
should also provide a report summary along the lines of what we did
last month. In addition to basic classification of podlings based on
their progress, we should also highlight any notable issues or other
topics the board may want to focus on.
Finally, and crucially since the above isn't too different from what
we've been doing all along, we'll take some time to discuss the
podling reports that need some clarification or for which some other
kind of feedback should be given. As you've seen, I've already started
doing some of that and I'm hoping to set an example for others to
follow. Iterate for a few months, and I believe the result should be a
notable increase in report quality, graduation focus and more
generally the awareness within the IPMC of how the podlings are doing.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Jukka,
This sounds like a great plan to me. Providing the board with a summary
demonstrates that the IPMC has reviewed all of the podling reports and
assessed the progress of each podling. Also including the full podling
reports to the board both gives supporting evidence to the podling
summaries and preserves the podling report for posterity in the minutes,
so that the board and others can easily review progress from past quarters.
+1
Doug
On 03/05/2012 03:29 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> During the February board meeting there was a discussion about what
> the directors would like to see in Incubator reports. The feedback we
> got on this ranged from providing just an "executive summary" of all
> Incubator activity to doing that *and* including all the podling
> reports. While there was no clear single message, the overall
> impression I got was that the board expects the Incubator PMC to
> provide better and more active oversight on podlings. At the same time
> many directors also wanted to hear directly from the podlings
> themselves.
>
> After thinking about this for a while, here's what I think we should do:
>
> First of all I think we should keep including the individual podling
> reports in the Incubator board report. The main reason for doing this
> is that I think we should get the podlings up to the habit of
> reporting to the board instead of just to the IPMC right from the
> beginning. The IPMC will provide extra review and feedback to help the
> podlings, but ultimately all the reports are addressed to the ASF
> board. This approach should also be in line with the ideas of scaling
> back the the Incubator and making podlings more autonomous.
>
> Second, to address concerns about oversight within the Incubator as a
> whole and to provide enough information to directors who may not be
> interested in all the details of individual podling reports, the IPMC
> should also provide a report summary along the lines of what we did
> last month. In addition to basic classification of podlings based on
> their progress, we should also highlight any notable issues or other
> topics the board may want to focus on.
>
> Finally, and crucially since the above isn't too different from what
> we've been doing all along, we'll take some time to discuss the
> podling reports that need some clarification or for which some other
> kind of feedback should be given. As you've seen, I've already started
> doing some of that and I'm hoping to set an example for others to
> follow. Iterate for a few months, and I believe the result should be a
> notable increase in report quality, graduation focus and more
> generally the awareness within the IPMC of how the podlings are doing.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Daniel Shahaf wrote on Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:07:18 +0200:
> Flavio Junqueira wrote on Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 00:21:13 +0100:
> > Is there anything important I'm missing?
>
> (/me leaves this question for the rest of general@ to answer)
... as I think their answers will be more useful than mine. I'm not
bestpositioned to answer your question.
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Flavio Junqueira <fp...@s4.io>.
Let's leave it for the next report then, I probably have all information but spread across sources, so I don't have it ready.
Thanks,
-Flavio
On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Flavio Junqueira <fp...@s4.io> wrote:
>> Hi Jukka, We can certainly provide the information you request.
>
> Cool, thanks!
>
>> Do you want us to update the last report or to consider it for future reports?
>
> No need to rush unless you already have the info readily available.
> I'm submitting the Incubator report in a few hours.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Flavio Junqueira <fp...@s4.io> wrote:
> Hi Jukka, We can certainly provide the information you request.
Cool, thanks!
> Do you want us to update the last report or to consider it for future reports?
No need to rush unless you already have the info readily available.
I'm submitting the Incubator report in a few hours.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Flavio Junqueira <fp...@s4.io>.
Hi Jukka, We can certainly provide the information you request. Do you want us to update the last report or to consider it for future reports?
-Flavio
On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:05 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the review and followup, Daniel!
>
> Flavio Junqueira wrote on Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 00:21:13 +0100:
>> Is there anything important I'm missing?
>
> I'm happy with your report for this month (with the note, as already
> raised by Daniel, that technical issues are not relevant to
> graduation).
>
> Going forward it would be great if you (and other podlings for that
> matter) included a note about how many active committers you have and
> how independent (separate employers, etc.) they are. That would make
> it easier to for us to see how active and diverse the project
> community is.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Thanks for the review and followup, Daniel!
Flavio Junqueira wrote on Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 00:21:13 +0100:
> Is there anything important I'm missing?
I'm happy with your report for this month (with the note, as already
raised by Daniel, that technical issues are not relevant to
graduation).
Going forward it would be great if you (and other podlings for that
matter) included a note about how many active committers you have and
how independent (separate employers, etc.) they are. That would make
it easier to for us to see how active and diverse the project
community is.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Flavio Junqueira wrote on Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 00:21:13 +0100:
> Thanks for your interest in the project. Here are my thoughts about the points raised.
>
> >>> I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
> >>> community.
>
>
> I expect us to attract more developers by increasing awareness. We
> have given presentations about the project internally (at least at
> Yahoo!) and externally. Some of the developers have written a paper
> about it and presented in 2010 (KDCloud) and we have proposed a talk
> for the next hadoop summit. Hopefully as developers hear more about
> the project they will feel compelled to join the community and
> contribute. We also expect to attract more attention once we have
> a release out (I believe we are close to cut a release). With
> a release, we can write a few blog posts about it and promote the
> project.
>
Thanks for the information; good luck.
> Is there anything important I'm missing?
(/me leaves this question for the rest of general@ to answer)
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Flavio Junqueira <fp...@s4.io>.
Thanks for your interest in the project. Here are my thoughts about the points raised.
>>> I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
>>> community.
I expect us to attract more developers by increasing awareness. We have given presentations about the project internally (at least at Yahoo!) and externally. Some of the developers have written a paper about it and presented in 2010 (KDCloud) and we have proposed a talk for the next hadoop summit. Hopefully as developers hear more about the project they will feel compelled to join the community and contribute. We also expect to attract more attention once we have a release out (I believe we are close to cut a release). With a release, we can write a few blog posts about it and promote the project.
Is there anything important I'm missing?
>>> P.S. The metrics aren't really clear. What is "55 on dev" --- 55 unique
>>> posters? 55 posts? Did they change by more than X% since last quarter?
We don't have numbers from previous quarters. The only other number I have is 124 watchers on github.
-Flavio
On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote:
> +s4-dev@
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> Ping, waiting for a response from s4-dev@ folks.
>>
>> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 16:19:27 +0200:
>>> Jukka Zitting wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 14:41:00 +0100:
>>>> Just pick one from the list (ideally one that you aren't directly
>>>> mentoring), read the submitted report (if one exists!) and compare it
>>>> to the previous report (for most podlings that's the one from December
>>>> [2]) and a quick browsing of things like the podling status page [3],
>>>> web site, list archives and svn commit history. Then, if needed,
>>>> follow up with a "$podling status" mail to general@ for any feedback
>>>> or questions that you may have. You may also place the podling in the
>>>> appropriate category in the report summary if the review gave you a
>>>> good enough picture of the podling status.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the actionable item Jukka, here's my take on the S4 report:
>>>
>>> It sounds like the project has successfully migrated its infrastructure
>>> to Apache and is progressing well on the technical front. However, I'm
>>> concerned by the emphasis on technical details (eg, the feature list of
>>> the trunk-become-0.5 version) and the lack of details on "Grow the
>>> community"; it is the latter, not the former, which is the purpose of
>>> the incubator and a blocker to graduation.
>>>
>>> The community appears to consist of 2-3 active contributors:
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-s4-dev/201202.mbox/author
>>> I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> P.S. The metrics aren't really clear. What is "55 on dev" --- 55 unique
>>> posters? 55 posts? Did they change by more than X% since last quarter?
>>>
>>>> [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012
>>>> [2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2011
>>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>>
>>>> Jukka Zitting
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org>.
+s4-dev@
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> Ping, waiting for a response from s4-dev@ folks.
>
> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 16:19:27 +0200:
>> Jukka Zitting wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 14:41:00 +0100:
>> > Just pick one from the list (ideally one that you aren't directly
>> > mentoring), read the submitted report (if one exists!) and compare it
>> > to the previous report (for most podlings that's the one from December
>> > [2]) and a quick browsing of things like the podling status page [3],
>> > web site, list archives and svn commit history. Then, if needed,
>> > follow up with a "$podling status" mail to general@ for any feedback
>> > or questions that you may have. You may also place the podling in the
>> > appropriate category in the report summary if the review gave you a
>> > good enough picture of the podling status.
>> >
>>
>> Thanks for the actionable item Jukka, here's my take on the S4 report:
>>
>> It sounds like the project has successfully migrated its infrastructure
>> to Apache and is progressing well on the technical front. However, I'm
>> concerned by the emphasis on technical details (eg, the feature list of
>> the trunk-become-0.5 version) and the lack of details on "Grow the
>> community"; it is the latter, not the former, which is the purpose of
>> the incubator and a blocker to graduation.
>>
>> The community appears to consist of 2-3 active contributors:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-s4-dev/201202.mbox/author
>> I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
>> community.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> P.S. The metrics aren't really clear. What is "55 on dev" --- 55 unique
>> posters? 55 posts? Did they change by more than X% since last quarter?
>>
>> > [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012
>> > [2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2011
>> > [3] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>> >
>> > BR,
>> >
>> > Jukka Zitting
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>>
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Re: S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Ping, waiting for a response from s4-dev@ folks.
Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 16:19:27 +0200:
> Jukka Zitting wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 14:41:00 +0100:
> > Just pick one from the list (ideally one that you aren't directly
> > mentoring), read the submitted report (if one exists!) and compare it
> > to the previous report (for most podlings that's the one from December
> > [2]) and a quick browsing of things like the podling status page [3],
> > web site, list archives and svn commit history. Then, if needed,
> > follow up with a "$podling status" mail to general@ for any feedback
> > or questions that you may have. You may also place the podling in the
> > appropriate category in the report summary if the review gave you a
> > good enough picture of the podling status.
> >
>
> Thanks for the actionable item Jukka, here's my take on the S4 report:
>
> It sounds like the project has successfully migrated its infrastructure
> to Apache and is progressing well on the technical front. However, I'm
> concerned by the emphasis on technical details (eg, the feature list of
> the trunk-become-0.5 version) and the lack of details on "Grow the
> community"; it is the latter, not the former, which is the purpose of
> the incubator and a blocker to graduation.
>
> The community appears to consist of 2-3 active contributors:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-s4-dev/201202.mbox/author
> I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
> community.
>
> Daniel
>
> P.S. The metrics aren't really clear. What is "55 on dev" --- 55 unique
> posters? 55 posts? Did they change by more than X% since last quarter?
>
> > [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012
> > [2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2011
> > [3] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
> >
> > BR,
> >
> > Jukka Zitting
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
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S4 status (was: Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports)
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Jukka Zitting wrote on Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 14:41:00 +0100:
> Just pick one from the list (ideally one that you aren't directly
> mentoring), read the submitted report (if one exists!) and compare it
> to the previous report (for most podlings that's the one from December
> [2]) and a quick browsing of things like the podling status page [3],
> web site, list archives and svn commit history. Then, if needed,
> follow up with a "$podling status" mail to general@ for any feedback
> or questions that you may have. You may also place the podling in the
> appropriate category in the report summary if the review gave you a
> good enough picture of the podling status.
>
Thanks for the actionable item Jukka, here's my take on the S4 report:
It sounds like the project has successfully migrated its infrastructure
to Apache and is progressing well on the technical front. However, I'm
concerned by the emphasis on technical details (eg, the feature list of
the trunk-become-0.5 version) and the lack of details on "Grow the
community"; it is the latter, not the former, which is the purpose of
the incubator and a blocker to graduation.
The community appears to consist of 2-3 active contributors:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-s4-dev/201202.mbox/author
I'd like to hear from the PPMC how they plan to expand their dev
community.
Daniel
P.S. The metrics aren't really clear. What is "55 on dev" --- 55 unique
posters? 55 posts? Did they change by more than X% since last quarter?
> [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012
> [2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2011
> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> I know that prompted me to do a similar run-through on half of your
> list (I ran out of steam/time...I guess I'll start at the bottom next
> time) and I simply found nothing to add, but I did do much more
> overseeing by following along than I would have done if, say, I had
> gotten nagged a couple thousand times more.
On that note, in case anyone wants to participate in the report
review, I left a TODO note to the wiki page [1] on the list of podling
reports I haven't really looked at in more detail yet. I'm planning to
cover them all by Wednesday next week, but will definitely appreciate
help from people with an extra cycle or two. :-)
Just pick one from the list (ideally one that you aren't directly
mentoring), read the submitted report (if one exists!) and compare it
to the previous report (for most podlings that's the one from December
[2]) and a quick browsing of things like the podling status page [3],
web site, list archives and svn commit history. Then, if needed,
follow up with a "$podling status" mail to general@ for any feedback
or questions that you may have. You may also place the podling in the
appropriate category in the report summary if the review gave you a
good enough picture of the podling status.
A quick review like that takes about 15 minutes and should give at
least a general idea of how accurate and complete the submitted report
is. A review like that certainly can't replace or compete with
hands-on participation and oversight that good mentoring provides, but
seems to work fine as a discussion opener and at least identify areas
where further help may be needed.
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012
[2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2011
[3] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Jukka's recent email and activity are precisely what I was hoping for
when I joined the chorus of voices for new leadership.
On this thread, I have a thought or two. Of the podlings I have known,
most required very little supervision. The single largest exception
has always been getting the first release or two through the gauntlet.
I wish that there was a way to recruit the expert scrutinizers to help
out up front. What if a podling could recruit Sebb or one of the other
release aces to help them set up their structure in the first place? I
bet it would be less work to teach than to critique. Not all of us are
so good at this particular topic.
The second largest exception is pushing projects to grow into
sustainable communities. It's not easy. It's not guaranteed. Report
review strikes me as a pretty good solution there.
Historically, I know we've had podlings with other and more
interesting problems, and that disengaged mentors only make that
worse. But join Leo in thinking that good report reviewing is a great
step all by itself.
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hey hey,
Jukka this is sounding so timid :). You know, I think I'll break rank
and tell you what I really think. You may want to sit down first.
You [1] did a *kick ass* job on the last report. Kick. Ass. [2]. Kapow!
As well as spending the time to look through and digest it all
beforehand on e-mail, you made sure we had discussion about it. Which
btw, wasn't a flamewar, which was nice, too.
I know that prompted me to do a similar run-through on half of your
list (I ran out of steam/time...I guess I'll start at the bottom next
time) and I simply found nothing to add, but I did do much more
overseeing by following along than I would have done if, say, I had
gotten nagged a couple thousand times more.
So, definitely +1 to keep going like that, thanks for spelling it out
too, you should know we got your back :)
cheers,
Leo
[1] helped by others of course, yada yada, we so love all you bearded
folks, you know who you are
[2] http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2010_Kick-Ass/2010_kick-ass_001.jpg
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> During the February board meeting there was a discussion
> about what the directors would like to see in Incubator reports.
...
> we should keep including the individual podling reports
...
> the IPMC should also provide a report summary along the
> lines of what we did last month.
...
> we should also highlight any notable issues or other
> topics the board may want to focus on.
...
> we'll take some time to discuss the podling reports
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:30 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And that seems understandable, however IMHO the lazer beam focus we
> now have on the quarterly reports doesn't necessarily help get better
> or active oversight, in fact it makes it even easier for mentors to
> just pop up every few months and mention/sign a report and then
> disappear for the rest of the time.
Yep, I agree that can be a problem. I'm hoping to avoid that by
adopting a more two-way approach to podling reports. Instead of just
silently acknowledging and signing off on reports, I'd like to see
actual discussion and feedback on them. Many podlings and mentors
already do that on their own dev@ lists (which I hope the sign-offs
reflect at least to some degree), but as the reviews over the past few
months have shown there's also value in an extra round of reviewing
and challenging the reports on general@ before we forward them to the
ASF board.
Ultimately my goal in putting more emphasis on report reviews is to
instill a greater sense of introspection on the podlings. I.e. that
these reports aren't just a formality, but rather a chance to reflect
on and discuss about project and community status.
> Looking at how many poddlings struggle to get votes on releases maybe
> what we need to have is a bit of actively retiring mentors so we can get
> a clearer picture of who is really providing oversight on poddlings.
Right, the release review is clearly another area of persistent
trouble caused largely by insufficient mentor help and oversight.
There was a lot of discussion about this some while ago with some good
ideas being debated. Can we try to combine some of the better ideas to
form a rough consensus on how to go forward, taking into account not
only empowerment of the PPMCs but also the requirements of oversight
and adherence to ASF policies?
On a smaller and more immediate scale, would someone mind going over
the release votes over the past quarter or to see which podlings were
having trouble and for what reasons? I believe data like that would be
quite helpful in identifying both podlings that need more mentoring
and possible larger issues in our processes and related documentation.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Thoughts on Incubator board reports
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While there was no clear single message, the overall
> impression I got was that the board expects the Incubator PMC to
> provide better and more active oversight on podlings.
And that seems understandable, however IMHO the lazer beam focus we
now have on the quarterly reports doesn't necessarily help get better
or active oversight, in fact it makes it even easier for mentors to
just pop up every few months and mention/sign a report and then
disappear for the rest of the time. Looking at how many poddlings
struggle to get votes on releases maybe what we need to have is a bit
of actively retiring mentors so we can get a clearer picture of who is
really providing oversight on poddlings.
...ant
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