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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> on 2017/07/13 08:24:09 UTC
Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Hi,
I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the wider
Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can potentially
provide more background should that be needed).
I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour of
keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs, decisions and
arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
> the full story can be found here:
> https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>
> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So I think the german geeks already know it...
If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to forward my info
to the appropriate channels/ lists.
Looking forward to your feedback,
Isabel
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Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
<ke...@mcgrail.com> wrote:
> My experience with legal is it is a black hole. And I disagree with other
> more blasise attitudes on this.
>
> I appreciate the feedback but there is an electronic changeover on dmca
> occurring in the imminent future and all it takes is one disruptive troll.
>
> I am disappointed the response wasn't more, 6$ let's do that today and make
> the vplegal the agent.
I suggest reopening https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-164.
Should VP Legal wish to volunteer for that role, I can't see how
anybody would take issue with this.
> Regards,
> KAM
- Sam Ruby
> On July 13, 2017 8:25:21 AM EDT, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
>> <kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sorry for my vagueness but this is important and you went left while i
>>> went right on the topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your most appropriate venue is legal-discuss@, and just that one list.
>>
>> -g
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Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <ke...@mcgrail.com>.
My experience with legal is it is a black hole. And I disagree with other more blasise attitudes on this.
I appreciate the feedback but there is an electronic changeover on dmca occurring in the imminent future and all it takes is one disruptive troll.
I am disappointed the response wasn't more, 6$ let's do that today and make the vplegal the agent.
Regards,
KAM
On July 13, 2017 8:25:21 AM EDT, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
><kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for my vagueness but this is important and you went left while
>i
>> went right on the topic.
>>
>
>Your most appropriate venue is legal-discuss@, and just that one list.
>
>-g
Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
> wrote:
> Sorry for my vagueness but this is important and you went left while i
> went right on the topic.
>
Your most appropriate venue is legal-discuss@, and just that one list.
-g
Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <ke...@mcgrail.com>.
Sorry for my vagueness but this is important and you went left while i went right on the topic.
My actions are pretty specific but I will bubble them up because I think the urgency is being missed. My note has less to do with github.
It has to do with the fact that someone could arguably find an IP violation somewhere in our resources and with very little work legally shutdown the ASF's resources very rapidly that all the pro bono attorneys can't slow down. This slows it down and let's it go through a process where offending material could be removed and all operations remain intact.
There is a process and protection granted under dmca called safe harbour and I believe we fall under it.
The way to do that is what I was covering:
Register an asf agent for dmca notices so we fall under DMCA safe harbour.
Do it with urgency.
Add the required agent notice somewhere on www.a.o. I can send ours as a template which we got from one of our upstream providers.
Make sure all our isps and datacenters that are in the US have the same registration. The copyright.gov/dmca page has very easy 6$ registration and a way to search old paper filings and new electronic filings.
Hope this helps explain things better
Regards,
KAM
On July 13, 2017 8:07:21 AM EDT, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We already keep copies of all GitHub activity on ASF systems, as
>mandated
>by VP Legal. The ASF is set up entirely different from GadgetBridge and
>our
>use of GitHub is ancillary compared to them. In addition, we already
>have
>pro bono lawyers ready to assist at any point.
>
>Please reduce the incredibly wide range of your To: header and minimize
>the
>subject line shouting, if there is something specific needed. It is
>also
>unwise to cross-post across private and public lists.
>
>Regards,
>Greg Stein
>Infrastructure Administrator, ASF
>
>
>On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
><kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Isabel. This is an interesting issue and there are
>protections
>> against this very quick injunction process. My own firm had something
>> similar occur and I am a designated agent for the DMCA.
>>
>> I think the ASF should immediately file an agent with the dmca
>> https://www.copyright.gov/dmca-directory/ and add a dmca agent info
>to
>> www.a.o.
>>
>> It costs 6$ and I apologize I never thought about it before. Thank
>you for
>> sending this.
>>
>> I have cc'd the board and vp infra. Sam or David, I suggest we
>register
>> today and get this done.
>>
>> Going further check that all isps and datacenters we use in the US
>are
>> also in their. It adds a process and protection layer to anyone
>filing
>> complaints.
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>>
>> On July 13, 2017 4:24:09 AM EDT, Isabel Drost-Fromm
><is...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the
>wider
>>> Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can
>potentially
>>> provide more background should that be needed).
>>>
>>> I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in
>favour of
>>> keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs,
>decisions and
>>> arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
>>>
>>>> the full story can be found here:
>>>>
>https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>>>>
>>>> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So
>I think the german geeks already know it...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to
>forward my info
>>> to the appropriate channels/ lists.
>>>
>>> Looking forward to your feedback,
>>>
>>> Isabel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>>
>>>
Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
DMCA is hardly a panacea. While it does absolve us of copyright infringement claims against services used in the production of releases, it does not help in the slightest when it comes to releases themselves.That would make the whole point of voting on them moot.
It's not urgent, not a new idea, and certainly not deserving of this level of crossposting. As it is in essence a legal position,
On Thursday, July 13, 2017, 8:07:35 AM EDT, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
We already keep copies of all GitHub activity on ASF systems, as mandated
by VP Legal. The ASF is set up entirely different from GadgetBridge and our
use of GitHub is ancillary compared to them. In addition, we already have
pro bono lawyers ready to assist at any point.
Please reduce the incredibly wide range of your To: header and minimize the
subject line shouting, if there is something specific needed. It is also
unwise to cross-post across private and public lists.
Regards,
Greg Stein
Infrastructure Administrator, ASF
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
> wrote:
> Thank you Isabel. This is an interesting issue and there are protections
> against this very quick injunction process. My own firm had something
> similar occur and I am a designated agent for the DMCA.
>
> I think the ASF should immediately file an agent with the dmca
> https://www.copyright.gov/dmca-directory/ and add a dmca agent info to
> www.a.o.
>
> It costs 6$ and I apologize I never thought about it before. Thank you for
> sending this.
>
> I have cc'd the board and vp infra. Sam or David, I suggest we register
> today and get this done.
>
> Going further check that all isps and datacenters we use in the US are
> also in their. It adds a process and protection layer to anyone filing
> complaints.
> Regards,
> KAM
>
> On July 13, 2017 4:24:09 AM EDT, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the wider
>> Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can potentially
>> provide more background should that be needed).
>>
>> I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour of
>> keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs, decisions and
>> arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
>>
>>> the full story can be found here:
>>> https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>>>
>>> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So I think the german geeks already know it...
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to forward my info
>> to the appropriate channels/ lists.
>>
>> Looking forward to your feedback,
>>
>> Isabel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
We already keep copies of all GitHub activity on ASF systems, as mandated
by VP Legal. The ASF is set up entirely different from GadgetBridge and our
use of GitHub is ancillary compared to them. In addition, we already have
pro bono lawyers ready to assist at any point.
Please reduce the incredibly wide range of your To: header and minimize the
subject line shouting, if there is something specific needed. It is also
unwise to cross-post across private and public lists.
Regards,
Greg Stein
Infrastructure Administrator, ASF
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kevin.mcgrail@mcgrail.com
> wrote:
> Thank you Isabel. This is an interesting issue and there are protections
> against this very quick injunction process. My own firm had something
> similar occur and I am a designated agent for the DMCA.
>
> I think the ASF should immediately file an agent with the dmca
> https://www.copyright.gov/dmca-directory/ and add a dmca agent info to
> www.a.o.
>
> It costs 6$ and I apologize I never thought about it before. Thank you for
> sending this.
>
> I have cc'd the board and vp infra. Sam or David, I suggest we register
> today and get this done.
>
> Going further check that all isps and datacenters we use in the US are
> also in their. It adds a process and protection layer to anyone filing
> complaints.
> Regards,
> KAM
>
> On July 13, 2017 4:24:09 AM EDT, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the wider
>> Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can potentially
>> provide more background should that be needed).
>>
>> I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour of
>> keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs, decisions and
>> arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
>>
>>> the full story can be found here:
>>> https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>>>
>>> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So I think the german geeks already know it...
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to forward my info
>> to the appropriate channels/ lists.
>>
>> Looking forward to your feedback,
>>
>> Isabel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
IMPORTANT: Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <ke...@mcgrail.com>.
Thank you Isabel. This is an interesting issue and there are protections against this very quick injunction process. My own firm had something similar occur and I am a designated agent for the DMCA.
I think the ASF should immediately file an agent with the dmca https://www.copyright.gov/dmca-directory/ and add a dmca agent info to www.a.o.
It costs 6$ and I apologize I never thought about it before. Thank you for sending this.
I have cc'd the board and vp infra. Sam or David, I suggest we register today and get this done.
Going further check that all isps and datacenters we use in the US are also in their. It adds a process and protection layer to anyone filing complaints.
Regards,
KAM
On July 13, 2017 4:24:09 AM EDT, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the
>wider
>Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can
>potentially
>provide more background should that be needed).
>
>I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour
>of
>keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs,
>decisions and
>arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
>
>On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
>> the full story can be found here:
>> https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>>
>> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So I
>think the german geeks already know it...
>
>
>If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to forward
>my info
>to the appropriate channels/ lists.
>
>Looking forward to your feedback,
>
>Isabel
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:02:50AM +0200, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> This story sounds like a very good argument for distributed source
> control such as git or mercury. Even if GitHub had purposely "lost"
> their entire repository, they would still at least have had the
> complete check-in history of their project sources locally on each of
> their three developer machines. It'd be awesome if there were a wiki
> and an issue system with similar properties.
I think in particular project communication in wiki/ issue tracker is what
people often forget. While the source code and it's change history is important,
loosing discussions, decisions and documentation in other systems does hurt a
good deal as well.
For me this is a big reminder why "what didn't happen on the mailing list didn't
happen" is important. For me personally it doesn't matter which technical
solution we choose to reach this kind of distributed history tracking, making it
distributed though is important.
> It also sounds like a good argument for doing open source development
> under an umbrella organization which has some lawyers, and a deep
> institutional understanding of intellectual property laws. Yeah
> Apache!
... and yeah other independent organisations that provide comparable
environments ;)
Cheers,
Isabel
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Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
This story sounds like a very good argument for distributed source
control such as git or mercury. Even if GitHub had purposely "lost"
their entire repository, they would still at least have had the
complete check-in history of their project sources locally on each of
their three developer machines. It'd be awesome if there were a wiki
and an issue system with similar properties.
It also sounds like a good argument for doing open source development
under an umbrella organization which has some lawyers, and a deep
institutional understanding of intellectual property laws. Yeah
Apache!
Best Regards,
Myrle
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I thought it would make sense to share the following story with the wider
> Apache community (those who shared it with me are on CC and can potentially
> provide more background should that be needed).
>
> I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour of
> keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs, decisions and
> arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control.
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 08:58:43AM +0200, Thoralf Klein wrote:
>> the full story can be found here:
>> https://blog.freeyourgadget.org/our-dmca-takedown-a-post-mortem.html
>>
>> There were also posts on heise.de and even printed in the c't. So I think the german geeks already know it...
>
>
> If you think it's interesting beyond dev@community feel free to forward my info
> to the appropriate channels/ lists.
>
> Looking forward to your feedback,
>
> Isabel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: Forwarded: GitHub vs. FreeYourGadget Full Story
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I believe this is one of those stories that are a datapoint in favour of
> keeping all vital history of our projects (that is code, docs, decisions and
> arguments exchanged) mirrored on systems we control...
Yes, thanks very much for sharing this Isabel!
The counter-argument to "your crown jewels must be stored on
ASF-controlled services" is often that Some Large Nice Company Which
Provides Better Tools is not going to disappear anytime soon.
Your example demonstrates that it's not only about such companies
disappearing, but also about them having different policies and
practices than ours when it comes to legal issues, real or perceived.
-Bertrand
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