You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> on 2014/01/20 17:27:09 UTC
Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing lists?
We (Apache OpenOffice) recently had a user subscribe our users mailing
list (500+ subscribers), and cause general disruption:
1) Many posts (20+) in a short period of time
2) Posts were off topic
3) She attacked list moderators and other members of the list
4) She threatened that she would report anyone who flamed her to their
ISP or the Department of Justice for hate crimes. I was cc'ed on one
email where she did exactly that to another subscriber of the mailing
list.
Said person never asked a single question regarding the use of
OpenOffice, which is the purpose of the users mailing list.
We had several complaints from other users, and several unsubscribed
because they could not deal with the disruption. As list moderator I
banned her.
Then she started flooding our private mailing list, claiming that we
were violating her civil rights, violating the Americans with
Disabilities Act, etc., because we banned her. Reading between the
lines it sounds like she is claiming the mailing list is a place of
public accommodation and her disability (which seems to be form of
ADHD) prevents her from controlling her conduct on the mailing list.
We then banned her from mailing to the private list as well. But now
she has started using a new email address, sending more complaints and
threatening to report us to the Justice Department in two weeks if we
don't allow her back on the users list.
PMC members are split on whether to ignore her, engage her, ban her, etc.
Note: she has not requested any specific accommodation.
In my most-recent note to her I wrote:
"If you do have a technical question about Apache OpenOffice, I want to
make sure you are aware that there are several other avenues for
support described here:
http://www.openoffice.org/support/
If you get stuck on any of those support options, feel free to send me
a note directly and I, acting as your personal support concierge, will
point you in the right direction and try to accommodate any special
needs."
So no one can accuse us of not making a good faith to accommodate her.
But this has not helped.
Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
Regards,
-Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing lists?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 20/01/2014 16:27, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
>> in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
>
> If this were any other project, I'd suggest replying to one of their
> mails along the lines of:
>
> "With my moderator hat on I'd ban this idiot but while they are largely
> clueless they do appear to have enough of a clue to be able just
> re-subscribe with a new e-mail address. That makes banning fairly
> pointless. I suggest you do one of:
> - add this idiot to your spam filter
> - filter them to /dev/null with procmailrc (my favourite)
> - etc"
>
> However, this is OpenOffice and I suspect many of the list subscribers
> do not have the knowledge and/or confidence necessary to deal with this
> themselves.
>
Right. That approach might work on our dev list. But our users
mailing list is a bit different. A single bad actor can easily
generate a cascade of responses, followed by the follow-on cascade of
"how do I unsubscribe?" and even the "why am I receiving these notes?"
posts.
> I suggest the moderators come up with a standard "Do not feed the
> trolls" reply - or better yet a page on your wiki you can link to and
> every time this user or anyone else starts trolling one of the list
> moderators simply replies with:
>
> "We recognise that this mail is offensive. Please do not give in to
> temptation and reply to it. For more information about how this project
> handles such mails and why simply banning subscribers doesn't work see
> <link to wiki> ."
>
> I would hope that after a while if their threads are ignored then the
> troll will simply go away.
>
That might work on a list if everyone but one subscriber was mature,
sane and experienced. But, of course, we have a mix. The level 10
idiot tends to bring out the worst in the level 9 idiots who bring out
the worst in the level 7 idiots. And then I come in at level 6 ;-)
In any case, thanks for your thoughts. I've forwarded the more
specific legal question to legal-internal, which I'm told is the more
appropriate place.
Regards,
-Rob
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing
lists?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 20/01/2014 16:27, Rob Weir wrote:
> Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
> in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
If this were any other project, I'd suggest replying to one of their
mails along the lines of:
"With my moderator hat on I'd ban this idiot but while they are largely
clueless they do appear to have enough of a clue to be able just
re-subscribe with a new e-mail address. That makes banning fairly
pointless. I suggest you do one of:
- add this idiot to your spam filter
- filter them to /dev/null with procmailrc (my favourite)
- etc"
However, this is OpenOffice and I suspect many of the list subscribers
do not have the knowledge and/or confidence necessary to deal with this
themselves.
I suggest the moderators come up with a standard "Do not feed the
trolls" reply - or better yet a page on your wiki you can link to and
every time this user or anyone else starts trolling one of the list
moderators simply replies with:
"We recognise that this mail is offensive. Please do not give in to
temptation and reply to it. For more information about how this project
handles such mails and why simply banning subscribers doesn't work see
<link to wiki> ."
I would hope that after a while if their threads are ignored then the
troll will simply go away.
Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing lists?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Donald Whytock <dw...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:09 -0500
>> Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > We (Apache OpenOffice) recently had a user subscribe our users mailing
>> > list (500+ subscribers), and cause general disruption:
>> >
>> > 1) Many posts (20+) in a short period of time
>> >
>> > 2) Posts were off topic
>> >
>> > 3) She attacked list moderators and other members of the list
>> >
>> > 4) She threatened that she would report anyone who flamed her to their
>> > ISP or the Department of Justice for hate crimes. I was cc'ed on one
>> > email where she did exactly that to another subscriber of the mailing
>> > list.
>> >
>> > Said person never asked a single question regarding the use of
>> > OpenOffice, which is the purpose of the users mailing list.
>> >
>> > We had several complaints from other users, and several unsubscribed
>> > because they could not deal with the disruption. As list moderator I
>> > banned her.
>> >
>> > Then she started flooding our private mailing list, claiming that we
>> > were violating her civil rights, violating the Americans with
>> > Disabilities Act, etc., because we banned her. Reading between the
>> > lines it sounds like she is claiming the mailing list is a place of
>> > public accommodation and her disability (which seems to be form of
>> > ADHD) prevents her from controlling her conduct on the mailing list.
>> >
>> > We then banned her from mailing to the private list as well. But now
>> > she has started using a new email address, sending more complaints and
>> > threatening to report us to the Justice Department in two weeks if we
>> > don't allow her back on the users list.
>> >
>> > PMC members are split on whether to ignore her, engage her, ban her, etc.
>> >
>> > Note: she has not requested any specific accommodation.
>> >
>> > In my most-recent note to her I wrote:
>> >
>> > "If you do have a technical question about Apache OpenOffice, I want to
>> > make sure you are aware that there are several other avenues for
>> > support described here:
>> >
>> > http://www.openoffice.org/support/
>> >
>> > If you get stuck on any of those support options, feel free to send me
>> > a note directly and I, acting as your personal support concierge, will
>> > point you in the right direction and try to accommodate any special
>> > needs."
>> >
>> > So no one can accuse us of not making a good faith to accommodate her.
>> > But this has not helped.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
>> > in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
>>
>> I was always told that the right of free speech was hedged with
>> responsibilities. For example one cannot (unwarrantedly) shout "Fire" in a
>> crowded theatre. But this is a European interpretation. US interpretation
>> may differ.
>>
>> Re the person responsible - if she has been warned about "off-topic" and
>> has repeatedly posted "off-topic", then ban her strictly for that - "breach
>> of Forum rules", nothing to involve her civil rights.
>>
>>
> IANAL, but my understanding has been that constitutional rights are
> limitations on government, and pretty much government only. Individuals
> and private organizations can make whatever rules they see fit for conduct
> in their facilities, within the bounds of criminal law.
>
> ASF as an institution, and its projects in particular, are very opt-in.
> There's no requirement to accommodate anyone because there's no
> requirement for anyone to partake.
>
In the U.S. there is something known as a "public accommodation",
typically a restaurant, hotel, movie theater, store, etc. Although
they are not government they cannot discriminate against certain
protected clases, e.g., by sex, race, ethnicity, etc. Persons with
disabilities are also covered.
So the question is: Is the users mailing list a "public
accommodation"? And if so, do we need to permit a disruptive user to
harm the use of that list by everyone because she claims that she is
unable to control her behavior because of a disability?
I think we would agree that we should make the project (and the
OpenOffice product itself) as accommodating as possible to everyone.
We're adding the IAccessible2 support for AOO 4.1., for example. But
the issue is when such accommodations interfere with the user of
others on the mailing list. How are these conflicts resolved?
Hypothetical example: What if someone on the mailing list is dyslexic
(also disability) and the volume of off-topic posts is a burden on
their use of the mailing list? How do we balance that need with the
other person whose disability does not allow her to stop posting many
off-topic posts?
> But again, IANAL.
>
Me neither. That's why I cc'ed the legal-discuss list as well, to see
if they have any thoughts. I want us to do the right thing,
obviously, even if that goes above and beyond what the law requires.
But right now I feel like we're being abused.
Regards,
-Rob
> Don
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing lists?
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:09 -0500
> Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > We (Apache OpenOffice) recently had a user subscribe our users mailing
> > list (500+ subscribers), and cause general disruption:
> >
> > 1) Many posts (20+) in a short period of time
> >
> > 2) Posts were off topic
> >
> > 3) She attacked list moderators and other members of the list
> >
> > 4) She threatened that she would report anyone who flamed her to their
> > ISP or the Department of Justice for hate crimes. I was cc'ed on one
> > email where she did exactly that to another subscriber of the mailing
> > list.
> >
> > Said person never asked a single question regarding the use of
> > OpenOffice, which is the purpose of the users mailing list.
> >
> > We had several complaints from other users, and several unsubscribed
> > because they could not deal with the disruption. As list moderator I
> > banned her.
> >
> > Then she started flooding our private mailing list, claiming that we
> > were violating her civil rights, violating the Americans with
> > Disabilities Act, etc., because we banned her. Reading between the
> > lines it sounds like she is claiming the mailing list is a place of
> > public accommodation and her disability (which seems to be form of
> > ADHD) prevents her from controlling her conduct on the mailing list.
> >
> > We then banned her from mailing to the private list as well. But now
> > she has started using a new email address, sending more complaints and
> > threatening to report us to the Justice Department in two weeks if we
> > don't allow her back on the users list.
> >
> > PMC members are split on whether to ignore her, engage her, ban her, etc.
> >
> > Note: she has not requested any specific accommodation.
> >
> > In my most-recent note to her I wrote:
> >
> > "If you do have a technical question about Apache OpenOffice, I want to
> > make sure you are aware that there are several other avenues for
> > support described here:
> >
> > http://www.openoffice.org/support/
> >
> > If you get stuck on any of those support options, feel free to send me
> > a note directly and I, acting as your personal support concierge, will
> > point you in the right direction and try to accommodate any special
> > needs."
> >
> > So no one can accuse us of not making a good faith to accommodate her.
> > But this has not helped.
> >
> > Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
> > in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
>
> I was always told that the right of free speech was hedged with
> responsibilities. For example one cannot (unwarrantedly) shout "Fire" in a
> crowded theatre. But this is a European interpretation. US interpretation
> may differ.
>
> Re the person responsible - if she has been warned about "off-topic" and
> has repeatedly posted "off-topic", then ban her strictly for that - "breach
> of Forum rules", nothing to involve her civil rights.
>
>
IANAL, but my understanding has been that constitutional rights are
limitations on government, and pretty much government only. Individuals
and private organizations can make whatever rules they see fit for conduct
in their facilities, within the bounds of criminal law.
ASF as an institution, and its projects in particular, are very opt-in.
There's no requirement to accommodate anyone because there's no
requirement for anyone to partake.
But again, IANAL.
Don
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from
mailing lists?
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:27:09 -0500
Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> We (Apache OpenOffice) recently had a user subscribe our users mailing
> list (500+ subscribers), and cause general disruption:
>
> 1) Many posts (20+) in a short period of time
>
> 2) Posts were off topic
>
> 3) She attacked list moderators and other members of the list
>
> 4) She threatened that she would report anyone who flamed her to their
> ISP or the Department of Justice for hate crimes. I was cc'ed on one
> email where she did exactly that to another subscriber of the mailing
> list.
>
> Said person never asked a single question regarding the use of
> OpenOffice, which is the purpose of the users mailing list.
>
> We had several complaints from other users, and several unsubscribed
> because they could not deal with the disruption. As list moderator I
> banned her.
>
> Then she started flooding our private mailing list, claiming that we
> were violating her civil rights, violating the Americans with
> Disabilities Act, etc., because we banned her. Reading between the
> lines it sounds like she is claiming the mailing list is a place of
> public accommodation and her disability (which seems to be form of
> ADHD) prevents her from controlling her conduct on the mailing list.
>
> We then banned her from mailing to the private list as well. But now
> she has started using a new email address, sending more complaints and
> threatening to report us to the Justice Department in two weeks if we
> don't allow her back on the users list.
>
> PMC members are split on whether to ignore her, engage her, ban her, etc.
>
> Note: she has not requested any specific accommodation.
>
> In my most-recent note to her I wrote:
>
> "If you do have a technical question about Apache OpenOffice, I want to
> make sure you are aware that there are several other avenues for
> support described here:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/support/
>
> If you get stuck on any of those support options, feel free to send me
> a note directly and I, acting as your personal support concierge, will
> point you in the right direction and try to accommodate any special
> needs."
>
> So no one can accuse us of not making a good faith to accommodate her.
> But this has not helped.
>
> Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
> in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
I was always told that the right of free speech was hedged with responsibilities. For example one cannot (unwarrantedly) shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre. But this is a European interpretation. US interpretation may differ.
Re the person responsible - if she has been warned about "off-topic" and has repeatedly posted "off-topic", then ban her strictly for that - "breach of Forum rules", nothing to involve her civil rights.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Are there any legal repercussions for banning users from mailing
lists?
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
Items to ponder:
1. Anyone can sue anyone any time they desire for anything, but, a judge
can throw it out and a lawyer will likely not take the case unless they
believe that they will win money or the person must be willing to pay
for the service.
2. Filing nuisance law suites is usually done by people who have a law
background or have spent a lot of time learning the system because a
lawyer will usually not take the case and they must have sufficient time
to file a complaint that they are able to do without external help from
a lawyer.
3. The problem is, if they do take you to court and it makes it to
court, if no one shows up, then they win by default.
4. I am not a lawyer, but, I think that even if I have a disability, I
will still be kicked out of an establishment if I cause trouble. I knew
a guy who was very demanding because of his "disability" and I was with
him when he was kicked out of a restaurant because he caused a huge
scene. The other people applauded the manager. None of this was related
to his disability, he was just rude, which did not prevent him from
claiming otherwise.
I am not aware of a "disability" that causes people to post unrelated
rude messages.
On 01/20/2014 11:27 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> We (Apache OpenOffice) recently had a user subscribe our users mailing
> list (500+ subscribers), and cause general disruption:
>
> 1) Many posts (20+) in a short period of time
>
> 2) Posts were off topic
>
> 3) She attacked list moderators and other members of the list
>
> 4) She threatened that she would report anyone who flamed her to their
> ISP or the Department of Justice for hate crimes. I was cc'ed on one
> email where she did exactly that to another subscriber of the mailing
> list.
I would be inclined to contact her ISP and complain about harassment if
she has this pattern.
>
> Said person never asked a single question regarding the use of
> OpenOffice, which is the purpose of the users mailing list.
>
> We had several complaints from other users, and several unsubscribed
> because they could not deal with the disruption. As list moderator I
> banned her.
>
> Then she started flooding our private mailing list, claiming that we
> were violating her civil rights, violating the Americans with
> Disabilities Act, etc., because we banned her. Reading between the
> lines it sounds like she is claiming the mailing list is a place of
> public accommodation and her disability (which seems to be form of
> ADHD) prevents her from controlling her conduct on the mailing list.
>
> We then banned her from mailing to the private list as well. But now
> she has started using a new email address, sending more complaints and
> threatening to report us to the Justice Department in two weeks if we
> don't allow her back on the users list.
>
> PMC members are split on whether to ignore her, engage her, ban her, etc.
>
> Note: she has not requested any specific accommodation.
She causes others to leave. She creates new email addresses so that she
can continue the abuse. Sounds like a stalker.
>
> In my most-recent note to her I wrote:
>
> "If you do have a technical question about Apache OpenOffice, I want to
> make sure you are aware that there are several other avenues for
> support described here:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/support/
>
> If you get stuck on any of those support options, feel free to send me
> a note directly and I, acting as your personal support concierge, will
> point you in the right direction and try to accommodate any special
> needs."
>
> So no one can accuse us of not making a good faith to accommodate her.
> But this has not helped.
>
> Any thoughts on this? Is there any risk to the ASF or our volunteers
> in moderating mailing lists or banning disruptive users?
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
I certainly don't want to be bothered by her posts.
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org