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Posted to dev@tuscany.apache.org by Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com> on 2007/01/15 13:39:06 UTC
SOA Scenarios
Hi,
There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
- In July http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
about JSF using Tuscany
- In Nov
http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
part of the what next for C++
- More recently
http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
- http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that Tuscany
does/will support?
These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed, rather
than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could also
be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might also
make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps a
way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather than
more abstract scenarios)
WDYT ?
Cheers,
Dan
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com>.
Hi Kelvin,
Sorry for the confusion... I was thinking of user stories in the agile / xp
sense which are/could be scenarios.
The reason I mentioned "abstract scenario" was to avoid a scenario that runs
along the lines of "develop a service component" and instead go for a more
specific (concrete scenario/) user story of "develop a service component
using Java" - perhaps I should not have mentioned this unless it happened.
My, unexplained thinking, was it might become apparent that not all things
need to be done in all languages/runtimes. This could help avoid writing
code that is not (currently at least) wanted. For example is there a need
for the C++ runtime to host a component written in Java ? It would be easier
to enable a C++ runtime to use IPC/WS to invoke/compose a Java component
rather than having the C++ runtime launch a JVM (IMHO).
Apologies for the confusion & thanks for pointing keeping me true :)
Dan
On 15/01/07, kelvin goodson <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that sounds really good Dan. I'd love to know more about what's
> driving our users or potential users.
>
> This could be seen as a nitpick, but I think also there's the potential
> for
> some confusion, since you talk about 'abstract scenarios'. I don't see
> scenarios as particularly abstract, since they are instances of the more
> abstract 'use case', i.e. a scenario is a single given path through the
> use
> case, documenting only one path wherever the use case gives choices. I
> guess what we would really like to capture are the use cases, but
> getting
> some scenarios together is probably not a bad way to begin. So I think
> your
> "stories" are really the scenarios, and your scenarios are the use cases.
>
> Cheers, Kelvin.
>
> On 15/01/07, Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
> >
> > - In July
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
> > about JSF using Tuscany
> > - In Nov
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
> > part of the what next for C++
> > - More recently
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
> > - http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
> >
> > Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
> > Tuscany
> > does/will support?
> >
> > These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed,
> rather
> > than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
> > also
> > be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
> > also
> > make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps
> a
> > way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather
> than
> > more abstract scenarios)
> >
> > WDYT ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Dan
> >
> >
>
>
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by kelvin goodson <ke...@gmail.com>.
I think that sounds really good Dan. I'd love to know more about what's
driving our users or potential users.
This could be seen as a nitpick, but I think also there's the potential for
some confusion, since you talk about 'abstract scenarios'. I don't see
scenarios as particularly abstract, since they are instances of the more
abstract 'use case', i.e. a scenario is a single given path through the use
case, documenting only one path wherever the use case gives choices. I
guess what we would really like to capture are the use cases, but getting
some scenarios together is probably not a bad way to begin. So I think your
"stories" are really the scenarios, and your scenarios are the use cases.
Cheers, Kelvin.
On 15/01/07, Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
>
> - In July
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
> about JSF using Tuscany
> - In Nov
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
> part of the what next for C++
> - More recently
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
> - http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
>
> Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
> Tuscany
> does/will support?
>
> These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed, rather
> than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
> also
> be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
> also
> make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps a
> way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather than
> more abstract scenarios)
>
> WDYT ?
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
>
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
My $0.2.... Once we define the scenario and go trough the actually go
through design, develop, build, install, run and debug it and manage the
steps, could we create a blog about it ? Something like those guys that go
on a journey and blog each steps ? I think this might be interesting to
people that would work on their own scenarios in their business or for
pleasure.
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
On 1/17/07, Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> To generate some discussion of how we would like this done (in other
> words,
> I'm not too happy with what I did) I wrote down some scenarios based on a
> possible example. Since I hope these sit above java and so I had a clean
> sheet I created :
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/Scenarios
>
> First thing you will notice is that I am a hypocrite as earlier in this
> thread I said: "avoid a scenario that runs along the lines of "develop a
> service component" and instead go for a more specific (concrete scenario/)
> user story of "develop a service component using Java"
>
> Second thing is that it doesn't really highlight why SCA or Tuscany... It
> reads to me like a standard integration scenario, but I believe could
> illustrate what a person might try first with Tuscany, so I hope it would
> be
> something that they can do without having to really think too hard :)
>
> Where for example I think we would show value in Tuscany/SCA is a later
> scenario of composing and or changing (eg. either I want to change the
> implementation I use or it is deployed somewhere else). This, in my mind,
> is
> where Tuscany starts to show value.....
>
> Anyhow, I also like Sebastien's suggestion so I'll try now to achieve one
> of
> the scenarios and report back :)
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
>
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com>.
To generate some discussion of how we would like this done (in other words,
I'm not too happy with what I did) I wrote down some scenarios based on a
possible example. Since I hope these sit above java and so I had a clean
sheet I created :
http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/Scenarios
First thing you will notice is that I am a hypocrite as earlier in this
thread I said: "avoid a scenario that runs along the lines of "develop a
service component" and instead go for a more specific (concrete scenario/)
user story of "develop a service component using Java"
Second thing is that it doesn't really highlight why SCA or Tuscany... It
reads to me like a standard integration scenario, but I believe could
illustrate what a person might try first with Tuscany, so I hope it would be
something that they can do without having to really think too hard :)
Where for example I think we would show value in Tuscany/SCA is a later
scenario of composing and or changing (eg. either I want to change the
implementation I use or it is deployed somewhere else). This, in my mind, is
where Tuscany starts to show value.....
Anyhow, I also like Sebastien's suggestion so I'll try now to achieve one of
the scenarios and report back :)
Cheers,
Dan
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org>.
Dan Murphy wrote:
> Thanks for the pointer Ray,
>
> It looks like a great start... Do you (all) think we should assume SCA is
> being used/ the desired solution ?
> The scenarios would, I hope, show how SCA helps solve a problem,
> though they
> could be useful to see if/where SCA has gaps and where Tuscany can
> provide
> value beyond being a pure SCA implementation.
>
> I was thinking : Technology independent scenario -> to how/if SCA &
> Tuscany
> supports it -> example(s) of how to do it
>
> This could help identify any SCA/Tuscany gap and help give Tuscany
> developers an indication of the complexity of performing a task /
> solving a
> problem. For example, if we discover that to perform a scenario using
> Tuscany required 39 steps and multiple decision points it might be a good
> area for simplification (or failing that tools).
>
> However, if the consensus is that SCA is the starting then I'm happy
> to go
> along with this. WDYT ?
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
> On 16/01/07, Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> I think it would be useful to define a set of SOA scenarios that
>> Tusany is
>> developed to support. Overtime, these senarios can be implemented using
>> Tuscany and become part of the integration suite. We can use them as one
>> way
>> to measure the functional completeness for Tuscany.
>>
>> FYI: There are some initial efforts documented at the following wiki
>> page:
>>
>> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/TuscanyJava/Scenarios
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Raymond
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Murphy" <dm...@googlemail.com>
>> To: "Tuscany Developers" <tu...@ws.apache.org>; "Tuscany Users"
>> <tu...@ws.apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:39 AM
>> Subject: SOA Scenarios
>>
>>
>> > Hi,
>> > There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
>> >
>> > - In July
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
>> > about JSF using Tuscany
>> > - In Nov
>> >
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
>> > part of the what next for C++
>> > - More recently
>> >
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
>> > -
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
>> >
>> > Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
>> > Tuscany
>> > does/will support?
>> >
>> > These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed,
>> rather
>> > than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
>> > also
>> > be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
>> > also
>> > make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects.
>> Perhaps
>> a
>> > way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather
>> than
>> > more abstract scenarios)
>> >
>> > WDYT ?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Dan
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-user-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-user-help@ws.apache.org
>>
>>
>
I think it would be very valuable to pick a not too complex scenario in
the eBusiness or Web 2.0 category for example and actually go through
the steps to design, develop, build, install, run and debug it, manage
it. You will probably find holes, user experience pain points and
possible improvements. Documenting this and reporting the problems you
find as JIRA issues will be very valuable IMO and will help the Tuscany
community define a clear roadmap for the project.
--
Jean-Sebastien
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org>.
Dan Murphy wrote:
> Thanks for the pointer Ray,
>
> It looks like a great start... Do you (all) think we should assume SCA is
> being used/ the desired solution ?
> The scenarios would, I hope, show how SCA helps solve a problem,
> though they
> could be useful to see if/where SCA has gaps and where Tuscany can
> provide
> value beyond being a pure SCA implementation.
>
> I was thinking : Technology independent scenario -> to how/if SCA &
> Tuscany
> supports it -> example(s) of how to do it
>
> This could help identify any SCA/Tuscany gap and help give Tuscany
> developers an indication of the complexity of performing a task /
> solving a
> problem. For example, if we discover that to perform a scenario using
> Tuscany required 39 steps and multiple decision points it might be a good
> area for simplification (or failing that tools).
>
> However, if the consensus is that SCA is the starting then I'm happy
> to go
> along with this. WDYT ?
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
> On 16/01/07, Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> I think it would be useful to define a set of SOA scenarios that
>> Tusany is
>> developed to support. Overtime, these senarios can be implemented using
>> Tuscany and become part of the integration suite. We can use them as one
>> way
>> to measure the functional completeness for Tuscany.
>>
>> FYI: There are some initial efforts documented at the following wiki
>> page:
>>
>> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/TuscanyJava/Scenarios
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Raymond
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Murphy" <dm...@googlemail.com>
>> To: "Tuscany Developers" <tu...@ws.apache.org>; "Tuscany Users"
>> <tu...@ws.apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:39 AM
>> Subject: SOA Scenarios
>>
>>
>> > Hi,
>> > There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
>> >
>> > - In July
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
>> > about JSF using Tuscany
>> > - In Nov
>> >
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
>> > part of the what next for C++
>> > - More recently
>> >
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
>> > -
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
>> >
>> > Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
>> > Tuscany
>> > does/will support?
>> >
>> > These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed,
>> rather
>> > than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
>> > also
>> > be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
>> > also
>> > make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects.
>> Perhaps
>> a
>> > way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather
>> than
>> > more abstract scenarios)
>> >
>> > WDYT ?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Dan
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-user-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-user-help@ws.apache.org
>>
>>
>
I think it would be very valuable to pick a not too complex scenario in
the eBusiness or Web 2.0 category for example and actually go through
the steps to design, develop, build, install, run and debug it, manage
it. You will probably find holes, user experience pain points and
possible improvements. Documenting this and reporting the problems you
find as JIRA issues will be very valuable IMO and will help the Tuscany
community define a clear roadmap for the project.
--
Jean-Sebastien
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com>.
Thanks for the pointer Ray,
It looks like a great start... Do you (all) think we should assume SCA is
being used/ the desired solution ?
The scenarios would, I hope, show how SCA helps solve a problem, though they
could be useful to see if/where SCA has gaps and where Tuscany can provide
value beyond being a pure SCA implementation.
I was thinking : Technology independent scenario -> to how/if SCA & Tuscany
supports it -> example(s) of how to do it
This could help identify any SCA/Tuscany gap and help give Tuscany
developers an indication of the complexity of performing a task / solving a
problem. For example, if we discover that to perform a scenario using
Tuscany required 39 steps and multiple decision points it might be a good
area for simplification (or failing that tools).
However, if the consensus is that SCA is the starting then I'm happy to go
along with this. WDYT ?
Cheers,
Dan
On 16/01/07, Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1.
>
> I think it would be useful to define a set of SOA scenarios that Tusany is
> developed to support. Overtime, these senarios can be implemented using
> Tuscany and become part of the integration suite. We can use them as one
> way
> to measure the functional completeness for Tuscany.
>
> FYI: There are some initial efforts documented at the following wiki page:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/TuscanyJava/Scenarios
>
> Thanks,
> Raymond
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Murphy" <dm...@googlemail.com>
> To: "Tuscany Developers" <tu...@ws.apache.org>; "Tuscany Users"
> <tu...@ws.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:39 AM
> Subject: SOA Scenarios
>
>
> > Hi,
> > There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
> >
> > - In July
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
> > about JSF using Tuscany
> > - In Nov
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
> > part of the what next for C++
> > - More recently
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
> > - http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
> >
> > Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
> > Tuscany
> > does/will support?
> >
> > These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed,
> rather
> > than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
> > also
> > be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
> > also
> > make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps
> a
> > way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather
> than
> > more abstract scenarios)
> >
> > WDYT ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Dan
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-user-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-user-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Dan Murphy <dm...@googlemail.com>.
Thanks for the pointer Ray,
It looks like a great start... Do you (all) think we should assume SCA is
being used/ the desired solution ?
The scenarios would, I hope, show how SCA helps solve a problem, though they
could be useful to see if/where SCA has gaps and where Tuscany can provide
value beyond being a pure SCA implementation.
I was thinking : Technology independent scenario -> to how/if SCA & Tuscany
supports it -> example(s) of how to do it
This could help identify any SCA/Tuscany gap and help give Tuscany
developers an indication of the complexity of performing a task / solving a
problem. For example, if we discover that to perform a scenario using
Tuscany required 39 steps and multiple decision points it might be a good
area for simplification (or failing that tools).
However, if the consensus is that SCA is the starting then I'm happy to go
along with this. WDYT ?
Cheers,
Dan
On 16/01/07, Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1.
>
> I think it would be useful to define a set of SOA scenarios that Tusany is
> developed to support. Overtime, these senarios can be implemented using
> Tuscany and become part of the integration suite. We can use them as one
> way
> to measure the functional completeness for Tuscany.
>
> FYI: There are some initial efforts documented at the following wiki page:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/TuscanyJava/Scenarios
>
> Thanks,
> Raymond
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Murphy" <dm...@googlemail.com>
> To: "Tuscany Developers" <tu...@ws.apache.org>; "Tuscany Users"
> <tu...@ws.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:39 AM
> Subject: SOA Scenarios
>
>
> > Hi,
> > There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
> >
> > - In July
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
> > about JSF using Tuscany
> > - In Nov
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
> > part of the what next for C++
> > - More recently
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
> > - http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
> >
> > Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
> > Tuscany
> > does/will support?
> >
> > These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed,
> rather
> > than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
> > also
> > be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
> > also
> > make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps
> a
> > way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather
> than
> > more abstract scenarios)
> >
> > WDYT ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Dan
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-user-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-user-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: SOA Scenarios
Posted by Raymond Feng <en...@gmail.com>.
+1.
I think it would be useful to define a set of SOA scenarios that Tusany is
developed to support. Overtime, these senarios can be implemented using
Tuscany and become part of the integration suite. We can use them as one way
to measure the functional completeness for Tuscany.
FYI: There are some initial efforts documented at the following wiki page:
http://wiki.apache.org/ws/Tuscany/TuscanyJava/Scenarios
Thanks,
Raymond
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Murphy" <dm...@googlemail.com>
To: "Tuscany Developers" <tu...@ws.apache.org>; "Tuscany Users"
<tu...@ws.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:39 AM
Subject: SOA Scenarios
> Hi,
> There have been a number of postings about scenarios. For example:
>
> - In July
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg04490.html
> about JSF using Tuscany
> - In Nov
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00319.htmlas
> part of the what next for C++
> - More recently
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-user@ws.apache.org/msg00416.htmland
> - http://www.mail-archive.com/tuscany-dev@ws.apache.org/msg12818.html
>
> Would it be useful to document and maintain a set of scenarios that
> Tuscany
> does/will support?
>
> These could be used to validate and help guide what get developed, rather
> than relying "what next ?" postings (more permentant record). It could
> also
> be used to help identify complexity and completeness. Lastley it might
> also
> make it clearer to differenticate Tuscany from similar projects. Perhaps a
> way to kick off would be to start gathering some user stories (rather than
> more abstract scenarios)
>
> WDYT ?
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
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