Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>]

The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected interns.

I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a discussion
of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a *separate
thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the topic of
what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, and the
known pitfalls.

Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because compiling
the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the application
phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.

Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread quickly to
applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a laptop, so
much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first. Mozilla
also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly web
development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.

There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They often
get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop until
the internship was over.

That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as early as
possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop shipping. They
have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern selections
until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email asking for
their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they were
selected as an intern.

Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first weeks, a
laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
immediately connecting interns to the community.

The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. That's
impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
inviting them to events on a short notice.

I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide laptops
for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our reach.
If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that ships
directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
themselves.

A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some Indian
schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means they have
less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the women's
dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and Africa
often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are expected to be
lienent when that happens.

That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
interns. Let me know what questions you have!

Sage Sharp
Outreachy Organizers


On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid> wrote:

> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but I'm
> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue where that
> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall any
> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more than one
> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was only
> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money directly to
> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
> discussions.
>
> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to Outreachy
> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited one or a
> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
> recommended workflow.
>
> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money they
> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't directly
> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that this
> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect some of
> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF project
> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was donated
> "on behalf of Entity X".
>
> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree to that
> and get going on Outreachy?
>
> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial barrier
> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to help
> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put that
> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while we get
> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.  Every ASF
> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've seen
> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the source
> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more expensive
> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller projects
> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing code to the
> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to GitHub
> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>
> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers VMs
> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>
> Thanks,
> -Alex
>
>
>
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>]

Hi Patricia,

This is exactly what I was looking for in terms of what kinds of barriers people face and how to reduce these barriers. 

Thanks for this insight,

Craig

> On Jun 30, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> 
> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out, some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too dangerous.
> 
> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's, when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access. All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the evening.
> 
> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them program in the evening.
> 
> 
> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do
>> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Sage,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for this.
>>> 
>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean that the
>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a fully
>>> up-to-date laptop.
>>> 
>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Craig
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
>>> interns.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a discussion
>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a *separate
>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the topic
>>> of
>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, and
>>> the
>>>> known pitfalls.
>>>> 
>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because compiling
>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the application
>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
>>>> 
>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread quickly
>>> to
>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a laptop, so
>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
>>> Mozilla
>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly web
>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
>>>> 
>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They often
>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
>>> until
>>>> the internship was over.
>>>> 
>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as early as
>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop shipping. They
>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern selections
>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email asking for
>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
>>> were
>>>> selected as an intern.
>>>> 
>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first weeks,
>>> a
>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
>>>> 
>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. That's
>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
>>>> 
>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
>>> laptops
>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
>>> reach.
>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
>>> ships
>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
>>>> themselves.
>>>> 
>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some Indian
>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means they have
>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
>>> women's
>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and Africa
>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are expected to
>>> be
>>>> lienent when that happens.
>>>> 
>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
>>>> 
>>>> Sage Sharp
>>>> Outreachy Organizers
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but
>>> I'm
>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue where that
>>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall
>>> any
>>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more than one
>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was
>>> only
>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
>>> directly to
>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
>>>>> discussions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to Outreachy
>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited one or a
>>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
>>>>> recommended workflow.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money they
>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't directly
>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that this
>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect some of
>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF project
>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was donated
>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
>>>>> 
>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree to that
>>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
>>>>> 
>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
>>> barrier
>>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to
>>> help
>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put
>>> that
>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while we get
>>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.  Every ASF
>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
>>> seen
>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
>>> source
>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more expensive
>>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller projects
>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing code to
>>> the
>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
>>> GitHub
>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers
>>> VMs
>>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> -Alex
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> clr@apache.org
>>> 
>>> 

Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

One interesting source might be companies who have tutorial stations at
conferences. The laptops/chromebooks used are often raffled off after
roughly 10 shows or so. It might be feasible to divert them to intern use
instead.



On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 3:55 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:

> Sage said at the top of this thread that the source of funds are off
> topic.  I, for example, have contacts at Lenovo. Others may have other
> sources.
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 3:54 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 6/30/2019 12:59 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > > I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable
> > > laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns
> > > either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from
> > > college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that
> > > will exclude some people.
> > >
> > > For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It
> > > seems worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion.
> >
> > Well the more I think about it, there is no budget for the ASF to
> > provide *any* laptops so the whole discussion is a bit of a waste of
> > time right now.
> >
> > --
> > Kevin A. McGrail
> > Member, Apache Software Foundation
> > Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >
> >
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

Sage said at the top of this thread that the source of funds are off
topic.  I, for example, have contacts at Lenovo. Others may have other
sources.

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 3:54 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:

> On 6/30/2019 12:59 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable
> > laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns
> > either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from
> > college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that
> > will exclude some people.
> >
> > For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It
> > seems worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion.
>
> Well the more I think about it, there is no budget for the ASF to
> provide *any* laptops so the whole discussion is a bit of a waste of
> time right now.
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

On 6/30/2019 12:59 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable
> laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns
> either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from
> college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that
> will exclude some people.
>
> For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It
> seems worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion. 

Well the more I think about it, there is no budget for the ASF to
provide *any* laptops so the whole discussion is a bit of a waste of
time right now.

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>]

Keep in mind that many interns have second-hand systems. Think 10 year old
macbook air. Projects also need to see what virtualization instructions and
memory usages their dev environments need.

Sage Sharp
Outreachy Organizer

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:32 AM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> wrote:

> Wouldn't it depend on the project too? Not all projects have Mozilla-level
> builds.
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 10:00 AM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> > I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable
> > laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns
> > either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from
> > college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that
> > will exclude some people.
> >
> > For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It seems
> > worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion.
> >
> > On 6/30/2019 9:46 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> > > I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen
> > > internet access become less of a concern.  We might need to poll on
> that
> > > especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the
> > > cost of a laptop depending on the destination.
> > >
> > > On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > >> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out,
> > >> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area
> > >> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that
> > >> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too
> > dangerous.
> > >>
> > >> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's,
> > >> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that
> > >> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access.
> > >> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I
> > >> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the
> > >> evening.
> > >>
> > >> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a
> > >> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with
> > >> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them
> > >> program in the evening.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> > >>> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would
> > do
> > >>> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi Sage,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks for this.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of
> the
> > >>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
> > >>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
> > >>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean
> > >>>> that the
> > >>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a
> > >>>> fully
> > >>>> up-to-date laptop.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Craig
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
> > >>>> interns.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a
> > >>>>> discussion
> > >>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a
> > >>>>> *separate
> > >>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the
> > >>>>> topic
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides,
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>> known pitfalls.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
> > >>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because
> > >>>>> compiling
> > >>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on
> older
> > >>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the
> > >>>>> application
> > >>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread
> > >>>>> quickly
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest
> > demographic).
> > >>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a
> > >>>>> laptop, so
> > >>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
> > >>>> Mozilla
> > >>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more
> popular
> > >>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly
> > >>>>> web
> > >>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They
> > >>>>> often
> > >>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the
> laptop
> > >>>> until
> > >>>>> the internship was over.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as
> > >>>>> early as
> > >>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop
> > >>>>> shipping. They
> > >>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern
> > >>>>> selections
> > >>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email
> > >>>>> asking for
> > >>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the
> > rule
> > >>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means
> they
> > >>>> were
> > >>>>> selected as an intern.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long
> > customs
> > >>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first
> > >>>>> weeks,
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit
> of
> > >>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time.
> > >>>>> That's
> > >>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply
> stopped
> > >>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
> > >>>> laptops
> > >>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
> > >>>> reach.
> > >>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier
> that
> > >>>> ships
> > >>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy
> one
> > >>>>> themselves.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some
> > >>>>> Indian
> > >>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order
> to
> > >>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means
> > >>>>> they have
> > >>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
> > >>>> women's
> > >>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and
> > >>>>> Africa
> > >>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are
> > >>>>> expected to
> > >>>> be
> > >>>>> lienent when that happens.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to
> Outreachy
> > >>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sage Sharp
> > >>>>> Outreachy Organizers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <aharui@adobe.com.invalid
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
> > >>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list,
> > but
> > >>>> I'm
> > >>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue
> > >>>>>> where that
> > >>>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't
> > recall
> > >>>> any
> > >>>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more
> > >>>>>> than one
> > >>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there
> > was
> > >>>> only
> > >>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
> > >>>> directly to
> > >>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these
> long
> > >>>>>> discussions.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to
> > >>>>>> Outreachy
> > >>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited
> > >>>>>> one or a
> > >>>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
> > >>>>>> recommended workflow.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money
> > >>>>>> they
> > >>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't
> > >>>>>> directly
> > >>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that
> > >>>>>> this
> > >>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect
> > >>>>>> some of
> > >>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF
> > >>>>>> project
> > >>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was
> > >>>>>> donated
> > >>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree
> > >>>>>> to that
> > >>>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
> > >>>> barrier
> > >>>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way
> > to
> > >>>> help
> > >>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should
> > put
> > >>>> that
> > >>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while
> > >>>>>> we get
> > >>>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.
> > >>>>>> Every ASF
> > >>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects
> I've
> > >>>> seen
> > >>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against
> inexperienced
> > >>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build
> the
> > >>>> source
> > >>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then,
> the
> > >>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more
> > >>>>>> expensive
> > >>>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller
> > >>>>>> projects
> > >>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing
> > >>>>>> code to
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing
> to
> > >>>> GitHub
> > >>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF
> > offers
> > >>>> VMs
> > >>>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>> -Alex
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Craig L Russell
> > >>>> clr@apache.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >
> >
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>]

Wouldn't it depend on the project too? Not all projects have Mozilla-level
builds.

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 10:00 AM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:

> I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable
> laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns
> either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from
> college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that
> will exclude some people.
>
> For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It seems
> worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion.
>
> On 6/30/2019 9:46 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> > I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen
> > internet access become less of a concern.  We might need to poll on that
> > especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the
> > cost of a laptop depending on the destination.
> >
> > On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> >> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out,
> >> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area
> >> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that
> >> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too
> dangerous.
> >>
> >> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's,
> >> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that
> >> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access.
> >> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I
> >> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the
> >> evening.
> >>
> >> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a
> >> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with
> >> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them
> >> program in the evening.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> >>> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would
> do
> >>> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Sage,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for this.
> >>>>
> >>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
> >>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
> >>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
> >>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean
> >>>> that the
> >>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a
> >>>> fully
> >>>> up-to-date laptop.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Craig
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
> >>>> interns.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a
> >>>>> discussion
> >>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a
> >>>>> *separate
> >>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the
> >>>>> topic
> >>>> of
> >>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides,
> >>>>> and
> >>>> the
> >>>>> known pitfalls.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
> >>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because
> >>>>> compiling
> >>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
> >>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the
> >>>>> application
> >>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread
> >>>>> quickly
> >>>> to
> >>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest
> demographic).
> >>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a
> >>>>> laptop, so
> >>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
> >>>> Mozilla
> >>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
> >>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly
> >>>>> web
> >>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They
> >>>>> often
> >>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
> >>>> until
> >>>>> the internship was over.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as
> >>>>> early as
> >>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop
> >>>>> shipping. They
> >>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern
> >>>>> selections
> >>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email
> >>>>> asking for
> >>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the
> rule
> >>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
> >>>> were
> >>>>> selected as an intern.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long
> customs
> >>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first
> >>>>> weeks,
> >>>> a
> >>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
> >>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time.
> >>>>> That's
> >>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
> >>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
> >>>> laptops
> >>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
> >>>> reach.
> >>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
> >>>> ships
> >>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
> >>>>> themselves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some
> >>>>> Indian
> >>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
> >>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means
> >>>>> they have
> >>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
> >>>> women's
> >>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and
> >>>>> Africa
> >>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are
> >>>>> expected to
> >>>> be
> >>>>> lienent when that happens.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
> >>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sage Sharp
> >>>>> Outreachy Organizers
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
> >>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list,
> but
> >>>> I'm
> >>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue
> >>>>>> where that
> >>>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't
> recall
> >>>> any
> >>>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more
> >>>>>> than one
> >>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there
> was
> >>>> only
> >>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
> >>>> directly to
> >>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
> >>>>>> discussions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to
> >>>>>> Outreachy
> >>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited
> >>>>>> one or a
> >>>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
> >>>>>> recommended workflow.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't
> >>>>>> directly
> >>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect
> >>>>>> some of
> >>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF
> >>>>>> project
> >>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was
> >>>>>> donated
> >>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree
> >>>>>> to that
> >>>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
> >>>> barrier
> >>>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way
> to
> >>>> help
> >>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should
> put
> >>>> that
> >>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while
> >>>>>> we get
> >>>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.
> >>>>>> Every ASF
> >>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
> >>>> seen
> >>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
> >>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
> >>>> source
> >>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
> >>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more
> >>>>>> expensive
> >>>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller
> >>>>>> projects
> >>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing
> >>>>>> code to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
> >>>> GitHub
> >>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF
> offers
> >>>> VMs
> >>>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> -Alex
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>> clr@apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>]

I would prefer individual "Does this intern need a build-capable 
laptop?" to a poll. The problem with a poll is that if most interns 
either have good internet access at their dorm or safe travel from 
college to dorm, a poll will say laptop-as-terminal is fine, and that 
will exclude some people.

For GSOC excluding outliers may not be that much of a problem. It seems 
worse to me when the main objective is diversity and inclusion.

On 6/30/2019 9:46 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen
> internet access become less of a concern.  We might need to poll on that
> especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the
> cost of a laptop depending on the destination.
> 
> On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out,
>> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area
>> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that
>> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too dangerous.
>>
>> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's,
>> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that
>> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access.
>> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I
>> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the
>> evening.
>>
>> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a
>> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with
>> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them
>> program in the evening.
>>
>>
>> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do
>>> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Sage,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for this.
>>>>
>>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
>>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
>>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
>>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean
>>>> that the
>>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a
>>>> fully
>>>> up-to-date laptop.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
>>>> interns.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a
>>>>> discussion
>>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a
>>>>> *separate
>>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the
>>>>> topic
>>>> of
>>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides,
>>>>> and
>>>> the
>>>>> known pitfalls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
>>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because
>>>>> compiling
>>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
>>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the
>>>>> application
>>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
>>>>>
>>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread
>>>>> quickly
>>>> to
>>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
>>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a
>>>>> laptop, so
>>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
>>>> Mozilla
>>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
>>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly
>>>>> web
>>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They
>>>>> often
>>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
>>>> until
>>>>> the internship was over.
>>>>>
>>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as
>>>>> early as
>>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop
>>>>> shipping. They
>>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern
>>>>> selections
>>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email
>>>>> asking for
>>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
>>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
>>>> were
>>>>> selected as an intern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
>>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first
>>>>> weeks,
>>>> a
>>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
>>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time.
>>>>> That's
>>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
>>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
>>>> laptops
>>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
>>>> reach.
>>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
>>>> ships
>>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some
>>>>> Indian
>>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
>>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means
>>>>> they have
>>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
>>>> women's
>>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and
>>>>> Africa
>>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are
>>>>> expected to
>>>> be
>>>>> lienent when that happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
>>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sage Sharp
>>>>> Outreachy Organizers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
>>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but
>>>> I'm
>>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue
>>>>>> where that
>>>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall
>>>> any
>>>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more
>>>>>> than one
>>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was
>>>> only
>>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
>>>> directly to
>>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to
>>>>>> Outreachy
>>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited
>>>>>> one or a
>>>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
>>>>>> recommended workflow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't
>>>>>> directly
>>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect
>>>>>> some of
>>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF
>>>>>> project
>>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was
>>>>>> donated
>>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree
>>>>>> to that
>>>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
>>>> barrier
>>>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to
>>>> help
>>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put
>>>> that
>>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while
>>>>>> we get
>>>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.
>>>>>> Every ASF
>>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
>>>> seen
>>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
>>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
>>>> source
>>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
>>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more
>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller
>>>>>> projects
>>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing
>>>>>> code to
>>>> the
>>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
>>>> GitHub
>>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers
>>>> VMs
>>>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> -Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> clr@apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> 

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

I didn't forget but from 8+ years of experience with GSOC, I've seen
internet access become less of a concern.  We might need to poll on that
especially because various duties and taxes can greatly increase the
cost of a laptop depending on the destination.

On 6/30/2019 11:30 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out,
> some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area
> and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that
> traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too dangerous.
>
> This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's,
> when I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that
> time, of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access.
> All my programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I
> felt reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the
> evening.
>
> If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a
> laptop-as-terminal is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with
> the capacity store, edit, and build reasonably fast would let them
> program in the evening.
>
>
> On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do
>> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Sage,
>>>
>>> Thanks for this.
>>>
>>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
>>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
>>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
>>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean
>>> that the
>>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a
>>> fully
>>> up-to-date laptop.
>>>
>>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
>>> interns.
>>>>
>>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a
>>>> discussion
>>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a
>>>> *separate
>>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the
>>>> topic
>>> of
>>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides,
>>>> and
>>> the
>>>> known pitfalls.
>>>>
>>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
>>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because
>>>> compiling
>>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
>>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the
>>>> application
>>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
>>>>
>>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread
>>>> quickly
>>> to
>>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
>>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a
>>>> laptop, so
>>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
>>> Mozilla
>>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
>>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly
>>>> web
>>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
>>>>
>>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They
>>>> often
>>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
>>> until
>>>> the internship was over.
>>>>
>>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as
>>>> early as
>>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop
>>>> shipping. They
>>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern
>>>> selections
>>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email
>>>> asking for
>>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
>>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
>>> were
>>>> selected as an intern.
>>>>
>>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
>>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first
>>>> weeks,
>>> a
>>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
>>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
>>>>
>>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time.
>>>> That's
>>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
>>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
>>>>
>>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
>>> laptops
>>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
>>> reach.
>>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
>>> ships
>>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some
>>>> Indian
>>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
>>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means
>>>> they have
>>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
>>> women's
>>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and
>>>> Africa
>>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are
>>>> expected to
>>> be
>>>> lienent when that happens.
>>>>
>>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
>>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
>>>>
>>>> Sage Sharp
>>>> Outreachy Organizers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
>>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but
>>> I'm
>>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue
>>>>> where that
>>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall
>>> any
>>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more
>>>>> than one
>>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was
>>> only
>>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
>>> directly to
>>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to
>>>>> Outreachy
>>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited
>>>>> one or a
>>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
>>>>> recommended workflow.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money
>>>>> they
>>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't
>>>>> directly
>>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that
>>>>> this
>>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect
>>>>> some of
>>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF
>>>>> project
>>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was
>>>>> donated
>>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
>>>>>
>>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree
>>>>> to that
>>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
>>>>>
>>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
>>> barrier
>>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to
>>> help
>>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put
>>> that
>>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while
>>>>> we get
>>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well. 
>>>>> Every ASF
>>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
>>> seen
>>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
>>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
>>> source
>>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
>>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more
>>>>> expensive
>>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller
>>>>> projects
>>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing
>>>>> code to
>>> the
>>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
>>> GitHub
>>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers
>>> VMs
>>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> -Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> clr@apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>]

I think you may be forgetting the women in India. As Sage pointed out, 
some of them are subject to an imposed curfew. Depending on their area 
and travel arrangements, others will have decided for themselves that 
traveling back to their living quarters late in the day is too dangerous.

This is a question I had to consider seriously in the early 1970's, when 
I decided to do a master's degree in CS by evening study. At that time, 
of course, there were no PCs, laptops, or home Internet access. All my 
programming had to be done at college. It worked only because I felt 
reasonably safe walking along Marylebone Road, London late in the evening.

If their dorm or home does not have reliable WiFi, a laptop-as-terminal 
is useless to them in the evening. A laptop with the capacity store, 
edit, and build reasonably fast would let them program in the evening.


On 6/30/2019 7:45 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do
> the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Sage,
>>
>> Thanks for this.
>>
>> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
>> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
>> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
>> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean that the
>> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a fully
>> up-to-date laptop.
>>
>> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
>>>
>>> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
>> interns.
>>>
>>> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a discussion
>>> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a *separate
>>> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the topic
>> of
>>> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, and
>> the
>>> known pitfalls.
>>>
>>> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
>>> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because compiling
>>> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
>>> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the application
>>> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
>>>
>>> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread quickly
>> to
>>> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
>>> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a laptop, so
>>> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
>> Mozilla
>>> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
>>> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly web
>>> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
>>>
>>> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They often
>>> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
>> until
>>> the internship was over.
>>>
>>> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as early as
>>> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop shipping. They
>>> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern selections
>>> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email asking for
>>> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
>>> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
>> were
>>> selected as an intern.
>>>
>>> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
>>> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first weeks,
>> a
>>> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
>>> immediately connecting interns to the community.
>>>
>>> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. That's
>>> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
>>> inviting them to events on a short notice.
>>>
>>> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
>> laptops
>>> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
>> reach.
>>> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
>> ships
>>> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some Indian
>>> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
>>> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means they have
>>> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
>> women's
>>> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and Africa
>>> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are expected to
>> be
>>> lienent when that happens.
>>>
>>> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
>>> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
>>>
>>> Sage Sharp
>>> Outreachy Organizers
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
>>>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but
>> I'm
>>>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue where that
>>>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall
>> any
>>>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more than one
>>>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was
>> only
>>>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
>> directly to
>>>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
>>>> discussions.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to Outreachy
>>>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited one or a
>>>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
>>>> recommended workflow.
>>>>
>>>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money they
>>>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't directly
>>>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that this
>>>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect some of
>>>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF project
>>>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was donated
>>>> "on behalf of Entity X".
>>>>
>>>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree to that
>>>> and get going on Outreachy?
>>>>
>>>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
>> barrier
>>>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to
>> help
>>>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put
>> that
>>>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while we get
>>>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.  Every ASF
>>>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
>> seen
>>>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
>>>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
>> source
>>>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
>>>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more expensive
>>>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller projects
>>>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing code to
>> the
>>>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
>> GitHub
>>>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>>>>
>>>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers
>> VMs
>>>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> -Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> clr@apache.org
>>
>>
> 

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

Interesting idea.  And then a decent but inexpensive chromebook would do
the trick nicely.  They can even run debian in development mode.

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Sage,
>
> Thanks for this.
>
> When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the
> challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible
> solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor
> organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean that the
> intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a fully
> up-to-date laptop.
>
> I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig
>
> > On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
> >
> > The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected
> interns.
> >
> > I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a discussion
> > of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a *separate
> > thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the topic
> of
> > what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, and
> the
> > known pitfalls.
> >
> > Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
> > Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because compiling
> > the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
> > laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the application
> > phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
> >
> > Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread quickly
> to
> > applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
> > Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a laptop, so
> > much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first.
> Mozilla
> > also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
> > communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly web
> > development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
> >
> > There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They often
> > get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop
> until
> > the internship was over.
> >
> > That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as early as
> > possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop shipping. They
> > have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern selections
> > until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email asking for
> > their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
> > because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they
> were
> > selected as an intern.
> >
> > Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
> > delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first weeks,
> a
> > laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
> > immediately connecting interns to the community.
> >
> > The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. That's
> > impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
> > inviting them to events on a short notice.
> >
> > I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide
> laptops
> > for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our
> reach.
> > If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that
> ships
> > directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
> > themselves.
> >
> > A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some Indian
> > schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
> > protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means they have
> > less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the
> women's
> > dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and Africa
> > often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are expected to
> be
> > lienent when that happens.
> >
> > That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
> > interns. Let me know what questions you have!
> >
> > Sage Sharp
> > Outreachy Organizers
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
> >> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but
> I'm
> >> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue where that
> >> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall
> any
> >> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more than one
> >> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was
> only
> >> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money
> directly to
> >> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
> >> discussions.
> >>
> >> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to Outreachy
> >> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited one or a
> >> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
> >> recommended workflow.
> >>
> >> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money they
> >> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't directly
> >> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that this
> >> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect some of
> >> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF project
> >> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was donated
> >> "on behalf of Entity X".
> >>
> >> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree to that
> >> and get going on Outreachy?
> >>
> >> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial
> barrier
> >> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to
> help
> >> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put
> that
> >> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while we get
> >> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.  Every ASF
> >> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've
> seen
> >> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
> >> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the
> source
> >> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
> >> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more expensive
> >> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller projects
> >> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing code to
> the
> >> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to
> GitHub
> >> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
> >>
> >> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers
> VMs
> >> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -Alex
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> Craig L Russell
> clr@apache.org
>
>

Re: Laptops for Outreachy interns

[Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>]

Hi Sage,

Thanks for this.

When I thought of why to provide laptops for interns, I thought of the challenges of compiling a large code base. I thought of a possible solution, which is using virtual machines (managed by the mentor organization) to do the heavy lifting. Obviously, this would mean that the intern would need a laptop and internet access but would not need a fully up-to-date laptop.

I'm not quibbling, just looking for more insight.

Thanks,

Craig

> On Jun 30, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
> 
> The short answer is yes, the ASF could provide laptops to selected interns.
> 
> I'm setting the boundary that this thread *NOT* devolve into a discussion
> of where the funds for those laptops come from. Please create a *separate
> thread* for discussions about that. Let's keep this thread on the topic of
> what sending laptops would look like, what incentive that provides, and the
> known pitfalls.
> 
> Mozilla already provides laptops to selected interns. It's the only
> Outreachy community to do so. Mozilla provides laptops because compiling
> the massive Firefox code base is very slow and/or impossible on older
> laptops. I'm not sure how they work around that issue in the application
> phase, but I can ask the Mozilla coordinators.
> 
> Word about how the Mozilla interns get a laptop seemed to spread quickly to
> applicants from Indian universities (Outreachy's largest demographic).
> Applicants are very excited about the possibility of getting a laptop, so
> much that they often search for Mozilla projects to apply to first. Mozilla
> also has several other things that make them one of the more popular
> communities for applicants, including a welcoming community, mostly web
> development projects, and accepting a large number of interns.
> 
> There are some issues on Mozilla's side with sending a laptop. They often
> get held up in customs. One intern from India did not get the laptop until
> the internship was over.
> 
> That means Mozilla wants to lock down their intern selections as early as
> possible in order to get their interns' address for laptop shipping. They
> have to bend Outreachy's rule about not talking about intern selections
> until the intern announcement date. They send interns an email asking for
> their address to send "some Mozilla swag". I say it's bending the rule
> because some applicants may guess asking for their address means they were
> selected as an intern.
> 
> Giving the laptop to an intern directly is a way to avoid long customs
> delays. If all the interns attend an ASF event during their first weeks, a
> laptop could be given to them there. It also has the added benefit of
> immediately connecting interns to the community.
> 
> The only problem with in-person events is getting a visa in time. That's
> impossible enough for Indian interns that Mozilla has simply stopped
> inviting them to events on a short notice.
> 
> I've thought some about what it would take for Outreachy to provide laptops
> for all 40+ interns. Sadly I think that budget number is out of our reach.
> If it was possible, we could try to work with a laptop supplier that ships
> directly within India. Or give interns enough of a stipend to buy one
> themselves.
> 
> A laptop itself may not solve all the barriers interns face. Some Indian
> schools impose an evening curfew for all women students, in order to
> protect them from gendered street violence. However, that means they have
> less hours in the computer lab than the male students. Some of the women's
> dorms do not have wireless internet. Interns from both India and Africa
> often face power or internet outages. Outreachy mentors are expected to be
> lienent when that happens.
> 
> That's a brain dump of what I know about sending laptops to Outreachy
> interns. Let me know what questions you have!
> 
> Sage Sharp
> Outreachy Organizers
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 7:47 AM Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Can I get a summary of all of these Outreachy threads?  I'm not on
>> private@diversity and I think I've read every email on this list, but I'm
>> seeing numbers like $10.5K being discussed and I have no clue where that
>> number came from.  I'm on fundraising@ as well and still don't recall any
>> source for those numbers.  Also, I thought that there was more than one
>> entity that was willing to donate directly to Outreachy and there was only
>> one or two ASF sponsors who were unable to redirect their money directly to
>> Outreachy, so I don't understand why we are still having these long
>> discussions.
>> 
>> I thought that if some entity was to donate money directly to Outreachy
>> that there were no objections from anybody even if it benefited one or a
>> few ASF projects and not others.  I would hope that would be the
>> recommended workflow.
>> 
>> If it turns out there are some entities that are ok with the money they
>> donated to the ASF going to Outreachy but for some reason can't directly
>> donate to Outreachy, I would hope that we would make it clear that this
>> workflow is not our recommended workflow but we would redirect some of
>> their money to Outreachy and either let Outreachy pick which ASF project
>> gets an intern, or can we document somewhere that this money was donated
>> "on behalf of Entity X".
>> 
>> And then, IMO, the ASF is not paying for code.  Can we all agree to that
>> and get going on Outreachy?
>> 
>> It was interesting to see it pointed out that there is a financial barrier
>> to entry at the ASF.  It would be nice if the ASF could find a way to help
>> lower that barrier without "paying for code", but maybe we should put that
>> in its own thread and spend more time brainstorming on that while we get
>> going on Outreachy.  IMO, the ASF has other barriers as well.  Every ASF
>> project I've looked at is huge compared to many of the projects I've seen
>> on Github, so the learning curve may be tilted against inexperienced
>> programmers and they may need a more expensive computer to build the source
>> without it affecting the interns productivity.   But even then, the
>> entities donating directly to Outreachy could fund that more expensive
>> computer.  The ASF should not feel obligated to take on smaller projects
>> just to make Outreachy interns more successful.    Contributing code to the
>> ASF is more like becoming a commercial truck driver, contributing to GitHub
>> is more like becoming a ride-share driver.
>> 
>> One thought on the financial barrier before I forget:  the ASF offers VMs
>> to projects.  Could they offer laptops as well?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> -Alex
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org