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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com> on 2004/09/24 16:16:33 UTC
Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
effectively confuses the issue.
I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
without much knowledge of this area.
Michael McGrady
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com>.
Some comments and questions inline...
Michael McGrady wrote:
> Thanks for your input, Matt. There is an end to the page and a place
> there for alternative viewpoints. Normally one person stops talking
> before the other starts. There is also the rest of the wiki where other
> pages can be placed. You are right that the page is hard to follow. If
> others put comments in the middle, it will be impossible. I had to
> completely jettison a previous attempt for that reason. Your
> suggestions are more particularly responded to within, Matt.
>
> I am sure that collaboration is important. I am equally sure that
> divergent points of view are important. There may be a tendency for
> those with old ideas not to like new ideas presented and they may want
> to put the old ideas in the middle of new ideas. That is not
> collaboration. This is especially so when the old ideas not only have
> been presented elsewhere but in fact have been ensconced in the Struts
> framework itself.
I don't understand why this isn't collaboration. As the wiki stands now,
it appears to new users that your 5 solutions are the best and that
DispatchAction/ImageButtonBean are inferior, and shouldn't be used. You
don't really explain why other than using generalizations that not
everybody agrees with.
>
> I don't see the systematic presentation of an idea as a "problem". I
> don't understand why someone wants to put their ideas in the middle of
> presentation of an idea. Why not at the end, or in another wiki page?
> Is there no place for a long systematic treatment of an alternative idea
> on the Struts wiki?
Maybe I misunderstand here, but you aren't trying to get at the
systematic presentation of 1 idea. You are trying to display (5)
possible solutions to the same problem. Others attempted to add more,
and it didn't work because the page is formatted terribly. All I am
saying is why not make the page more readable, and more flexible to
allow as many possible solutions as people can think of.
What you want out of the wiki is not what it is designed for. The pages
are changeable by anybody for a reason. If you truly want the page to be
unchangeable by anybody except yourself, you need to setup a website and
link the wiki to it.
>
> This particular page is not for Struts newbies. If someone else wants
> to do a page for them, I would encourage that. I don't want to change
> this page for that purpose. This page, in fact, is likely to become
> more, not less, recondite. I am talking to developers more than to
> users here. And, more to advanced users than newbies.
>
I'm not sure what you mean by "developers more than users". Anybody
looking at the wiki is going to be a developer. Some may be experienced
with struts and some may be new to it, but I think many/most at least
now a bit about java and would be able to understand any solution
presented after some reading. Newbies to struts are developers.
When I was learning struts and needed a multiple button solution, I
looked at what was available (basically just the dispatchactions) and
decided how to handle it. If I could have looked at the wiki and saw 5
(or more) possible alternatives, and the pros/cons of each, I would have
been overjoyed. I was a newbie to struts, but still would have been able
to handle what you are presenting here.
> Everything everyone wants does not need to be on this page. Try using
> another page. The only difficulty here is that two people with very
> divergent views in this area have been trying to write in the same
> space. I have tried to manage this by giving a space at the end. The
> real alternative that makes sense would be for people who are not
> collaborating not to speak at the same time in the same place. The
> divergence is good, but it must be managed.
>
What I am suggesting is alternate pages for all possible solutions. Just
break your 5 solutions up into 5 pages, then allow others to add their
solutions to an "index" page of all solutions. This makes it much easier
to collaborate.
> Part of the difficulty, Matt, is that you don't know where I am going on
> this page. I might have been there already, but I have had to keep
I would suggest getting all your ideas together offline and presenting
them in the wiki when you are done then.
> changing the page. I have a lot more that is going on this page. I
> have a very detailed button solution. Isn't there a place we can put
> detailed solutions rather than one, two or three liners?
Yes, you can have 5 extremely detailed pages that will (most likely) be
much more easy to understand than the 1 convoluted mess you have now.
> If someone wants to do the things you mention with DispatchAction, why
> do it here? This wiki page is about a different solution. Why do all
> the people who want to maintain the status quo need to have a say in the
> middle of the presentation of an alternative idea? I don't see that as
> a good policy. Alternative views ought to be heard too.
>
> Your solution essentially will make a nice little article on what
> everyone wants to do. That is not my objective. I am trying to put
> together a generic button solution which has a particular tilt. I am
> not trying to lecture on the history of the problem and its vissisitudes
> but to present a new series of ideas. Can I do that here? So far I
> have been stymied twice by people who have no idea what I am trying to
> do putting their ideas in the middle of my presentation.
> I merely ask why they cannot put in their two cents at the end or put up
> their own wiki page with their concerns? If that is not possible, then
> I don't see how alternative points of view can be protected from those
> who want to flood the middle of a presentation with their own ideas.
> What value is their in making a presentation unreadable by putting in
> your alternative and disconsonant ideas in the middle of a presentation?
Well...you can't do what you want on a wiki, no. If I have an opinion
about your solution, the logical (and pretty much only) place for it is
in the wiki page. If I have an alternative to your solution (even if you
don't like it) it can go in the wiki page wherever I think it would fit.
That is the nature of a wiki. If you can't handle alternate opinions
"destroying your ideas" you really do need a separate website.
>
> I don't want to even try to seek the solution you offer, Matt. It may
> be a good solution, but it ends up doing something I am not trying to
> do. I am not trying to present Niall's ideas. I am trying to present
> mine. My idea are very involved and this wiki page will evolve as I get
> things presented better. I cannot do so, however, if I have to
> continually salve the needs of those who want their ideas presented in
> this space.
>
I am not asking you to present anybody's ideas except your own. I am
just suggesting that you make it easier for others to present ideas that
are contrary (but completley 100% related) to yours.
I am done with this, because it really does seem you either don't
understand the concept of a wiki or you truly don't want to collaborate
with others.
Matt
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com>.
From: "Michael McGrady" <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
> I don't want to even try to seek the solution you offer, Matt. It may
> be a good solution, but it ends up doing something I am not trying to
> do. I am not trying to present Niall's ideas. I am trying to present
> mine. My idea are very involved and this wiki page will evolve as I get
> things presented better. I cannot do so, however, if I have to
> continually salve the needs of those who want their ideas presented in
> this space.
I may regret getting involved in this, but...
It may be that a Wiki isn't the best medium for this-- I've been trying to
follow what you're doing, but I really need to step through the code in a
debugger to understand it, and copying and pasting off of web pages isn't
high on my list of things to do. If you provided a working example as a
.war file, zipped with some documentation, more people might take the time
to check it out.
It's great that you're so enthusiastic about your solution. However, there
are plenty of other ways of accomplishing the same goal, and disparaging
them doesn't add any credibility to yours. Rather than try to convince
everyone, just present your work, let it stand on its own, and don't take it
so personally if someone doesn't like it.
I believe there's a SourceForge project set up for Struts-related things,
that might be a good place to set it up.
--
Wendy Smoak
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Thanks for your input, Matt. There is an end to the page and a place
there for alternative viewpoints. Normally one person stops talking
before the other starts. There is also the rest of the wiki where other
pages can be placed. You are right that the page is hard to follow. If
others put comments in the middle, it will be impossible. I had to
completely jettison a previous attempt for that reason. Your
suggestions are more particularly responded to within, Matt.
I am sure that collaboration is important. I am equally sure that
divergent points of view are important. There may be a tendency for
those with old ideas not to like new ideas presented and they may want
to put the old ideas in the middle of new ideas. That is not
collaboration. This is especially so when the old ideas not only have
been presented elsewhere but in fact have been ensconced in the Struts
framework itself.
I don't see the systematic presentation of an idea as a "problem". I
don't understand why someone wants to put their ideas in the middle of
presentation of an idea. Why not at the end, or in another wiki page?
Is there no place for a long systematic treatment of an alternative idea
on the Struts wiki?
This particular page is not for Struts newbies. If someone else wants
to do a page for them, I would encourage that. I don't want to change
this page for that purpose. This page, in fact, is likely to become
more, not less, recondite. I am talking to developers more than to
users here. And, more to advanced users than newbies.
Everything everyone wants does not need to be on this page. Try using
another page. The only difficulty here is that two people with very
divergent views in this area have been trying to write in the same
space. I have tried to manage this by giving a space at the end. The
real alternative that makes sense would be for people who are not
collaborating not to speak at the same time in the same place. The
divergence is good, but it must be managed.
Part of the difficulty, Matt, is that you don't know where I am going on
this page. I might have been there already, but I have had to keep
changing the page. I have a lot more that is going on this page. I
have a very detailed button solution. Isn't there a place we can put
detailed solutions rather than one, two or three liners?
If someone wants to do the things you mention with DispatchAction, why
do it here? This wiki page is about a different solution. Why do all
the people who want to maintain the status quo need to have a say in the
middle of the presentation of an alternative idea? I don't see that as
a good policy. Alternative views ought to be heard too.
Your solution essentially will make a nice little article on what
everyone wants to do. That is not my objective. I am trying to put
together a generic button solution which has a particular tilt. I am
not trying to lecture on the history of the problem and its vissisitudes
but to present a new series of ideas. Can I do that here? So far I
have been stymied twice by people who have no idea what I am trying to
do putting their ideas in the middle of my presentation.
I merely ask why they cannot put in their two cents at the end or put up
their own wiki page with their concerns? If that is not possible, then
I don't see how alternative points of view can be protected from those
who want to flood the middle of a presentation with their own ideas.
What value is their in making a presentation unreadable by putting in
your alternative and disconsonant ideas in the middle of a presentation?
I don't want to even try to seek the solution you offer, Matt. It may
be a good solution, but it ends up doing something I am not trying to
do. I am not trying to present Niall's ideas. I am trying to present
mine. My idea are very involved and this wiki page will evolve as I get
things presented better. I cannot do so, however, if I have to
continually salve the needs of those who want their ideas presented in
this space.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
> going to.
>
> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is about
> the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>
>
> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall made
> his changes.
>
> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>
> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes it
> is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
> person has chosen as acceptable.
>
> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
> description of the solution by its link.
>
> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" page.
> The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>
> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction and
> its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you follow a
> format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily presented
> without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. In the
> comments section of the main page, people can express their views on
> which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>
> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try other
> solutions.
>
> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most of
> the problems we are seeing.
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit
>> your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those
>> thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you,
>> because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to
>> critique and to surpass.
>>
>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>
>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp
>> of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you
>> seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply
>> put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in
>> the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to
>> inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply
>> am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page.
>> Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different
>> approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is
>> of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a
>> constant basis is too much for me.
>>
>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach
>> and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of new
>> approaches.
>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do
>> that in peace?
>>
>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like,
>> without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the
>> difficulty.
>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is
>> upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new
>> day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the
>> wiki will be nuked.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>>
>>
>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>
>>> I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution"
>>> wiki
>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>> subject - I
>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people
>>> should
>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>> have put
>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>> you also
>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>> references.
>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>> would
>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>
>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to
>>> want
>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>> thats the
>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>> link to
>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>
>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>> attacks on
>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do
>>> you say
>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>
>>> Niall
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite
>>>> being
>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>
>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>> of the
>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>> status
>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
So organize your ideas offline then, when you are ready, publish them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
Sent: September 24, 2004 10:53 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
I should tell you, Matt, that by the time I am finished with this page,
it will probably be ten times as long as it is with the stuff I already
have to put in and without covering other peoples' ideas. I am trying
to organize this presentation. That, as you notice, will be very
difficult to do. Organizing it with others jumping in the middle of it
will be harder. I don't really want help in organizing my ideas. I
would just like people to stay out of the middle while I am trying to
organize and present it.
Michael
Matt Bathje wrote:
> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
> it is easier for me.
>
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
> compare/contrast.
>
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
> their opinions of all of them.
>
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
> problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
> that is how you have formatted the page.
>
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
> collaboration.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>> are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>> ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>> going to.
>>>
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>> made his changes.
>>>
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>>
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>> other solutions.
>>>
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>> credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>> those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>> page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>> same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>> a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Niall
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
I should tell you, Matt, that by the time I am finished with this page,
it will probably be ten times as long as it is with the stuff I already
have to put in and without covering other peoples' ideas. I am trying
to organize this presentation. That, as you notice, will be very
difficult to do. Organizing it with others jumping in the middle of it
will be harder. I don't really want help in organizing my ideas. I
would just like people to stay out of the middle while I am trying to
organize and present it.
Michael
Matt Bathje wrote:
> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
> it is easier for me.
>
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
> compare/contrast.
>
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
> their opinions of all of them.
>
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
> problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
> that is how you have formatted the page.
>
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
> collaboration.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>> are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>> ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>> going to.
>>>
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>> made his changes.
>>>
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>>
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>> other solutions.
>>>
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>> credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>> those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>> page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>> same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>> a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Niall
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Hello, Steve,
Thank you for your suggestion. I may have to do that.
I have been using the wiki to present ideas on Struts generally and on
buttons in particular for some time and had no difficulty until I
criticised the DispatchAction solution and its progeny as well as the
ImageButtonBean. I would like to be a part of this community if I can
do so without having to agree or to appear to agree with ideas I do not
care to advance or to advocate. I thought and still think that this
must be possible.
I am not sure whether you are saying what I can say in criticism of
these ideas is limited here or what. I know that I personally cannot
control, nor do I wish to, whether or not someone decides to put
something in the middle of my presentation. That is and has been a
fact. I more than anyone am mindful of that fact.
I don't know if there are any "rules" on that. Don't you think there
should be? Am I alone in thinking that putting ideas I am trying to
discard or to suggest that we discard into the middle of my presentation
is not the high water mark in courtesy?
Is this not something that is fair discussion on the Struts wiki? I
admit that I have not been happy with having to deal with and to
reorganize constantly due to this happening. I thought, however, that
discussing it might be better than just leaving without seeing whether
or not there were some implicit if not explict rules on this thing.
I hope you can see this at least a bit from my perspective. Or, do you
think that my side of this deal has no validity whatsoever? Is the
request to allow me to fill out this page and to add comments at the end
or separately totally unreasonable?
Michael McGrady
Sorry, Jim, no last word for you yet. Please try later.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
>Michael,
>
>The short answer to people "messing with your format" is to publish your
>ideas/comments on your own web site. Then you could add a link from the Wiki
>if you wish.
>
>I encourage you to do so, or accept the fact that a Wiki page is a communal
>resource.
>
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
>Sent: September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>
>
>Thanks for this response, Matt. I understand your thinking. However,
>the difficulty is that you don't know where I am going with this. No
>way you could, of course, but where I am going does not fit in with
>these ideas.
>
>If people don't know about DispatchAction, etc., they are not the people
>I am trying to talk to at the moment. I am talking about jet cars and
>don't want to include the model-T in my presentation. If others want to
>remind us of the model-T, which has had its day in the Sun, they can do
>so at the end or elsewhere. What is the difficulty with that? The only
>difficulty is that I cannot keep people out of the middle of the page
>and because I have a more generic solution than you know about coming up
>I want to be able to slowly build that.
>
>Let me suggest, Matt, that you start a new page called something like
>"The Known Solutions to Buttons" and you can reference this page? I
>don't want to do that page. I want to do something different. You
>probably don't want to do that page either. If you do, however, it is
>not what I am doing here. I like your idea. I would encourage it. That
>is not what I am doing. Can I do what I am doing? I have added a bit
>more to the start of the wiki to give you an idea. You might look at
>the <crackwillow:image> note.
>
>Michael McGrady
>
>Matt Bathje wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
>>it is easier for me.
>>
>>I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
>>But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
>>detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
>>compare/contrast.
>>
>>Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
>>mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
>>without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
>>old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
>>their opinions of all of them.
>>
>>A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
>>Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
>>problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
>>possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>>
>>I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
>>solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
>>you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
>>that is how you have formatted the page.
>>
>>A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
>>collaboration.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>Michael McGrady wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>>>are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>>>into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>>>is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>>>old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>>>ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>>
>>>Michael McGrady
>>>
>>>Matt Bathje wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>>>going to.
>>>>
>>>>As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>>>about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>>
>>>>The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>>>that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>>>the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>>>page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>>>made his changes.
>>>>
>>>>Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>>>better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>>
>>>>Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>>>something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>>>it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>>>title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>>>person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>>
>>>>Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>>>table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>>>"MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>>>links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>>>solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>>>description of the solution by its link.
>>>>
>>>>Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>>>page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>>
>>>>Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>>>and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>>>follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>>>presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>>>In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>>>views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>>
>>>>Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>>>people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>>>other solutions.
>>>>
>>>>Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>>>of the problems we are seeing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>>>credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>>>those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>>>laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>>>trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>>>in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>>>attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>>>grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>>>and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>>>I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>>>you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>>>simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>>>will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>>>Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>>>to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>>>simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>>>page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>>>different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>>>same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>>>after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>>>page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>>>collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>>>approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>>>new approaches.
>>>>>You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>>>wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>>>here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>>>presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>>>do that in peace?
>>>>>
>>>>>Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>>>like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>>>is the difficulty.
>>>>>I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>>>solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>>>inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>>>is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>>>a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>>>or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I respected what you requested in the
>>>>>>"FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>>>page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>>>subject - I
>>>>>>added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>>>people should
>>>>>>do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>>>have put
>>>>>>them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>>>you also
>>>>>>put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>>>making
>>>>>>reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>>>references.
>>>>>>If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>>>would
>>>>>>have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>>>to want
>>>>>>your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>>>thats the
>>>>>>case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>>>link to
>>>>>>it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>>>any
>>>>>>reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>>>attacks on
>>>>>>me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>>>do you say
>>>>>>"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>>>unecessary and rude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Niall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>>><mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>>>To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>>>despite being
>>>>>>>detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>>>effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>>>do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>>>Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>>>of the
>>>>>>>links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>>>where
>>>>>>>they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>>>status
>>>>>>>and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>>>no way
>>>>>>>to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>>>altogether
>>>>>>>and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>>>whim and
>>>>>>>without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Michael McGrady
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
Comments inline...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
> Sent: September 24, 2004 11:48 AM
> To: Struts Developers List
> Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>
>
> Hello, Steve,
>
> Thank you for your suggestion. I may have to do that.
>
> I have been using the wiki to present ideas on Struts generally and on
> buttons in particular for some time and had no difficulty until I
> criticised the DispatchAction solution and its progeny as well as the
> ImageButtonBean. I would like to be a part of this community if I can
> do so without having to agree or to appear to agree with ideas I do not
> care to advance or to advocate. I thought and still think that this
> must be possible.
You can disagree with anything you like. Just focus on the technical merits,
not personal abilities or attributes. Avoid making sweeping statements
without evidence (e.g. "Struts is bloated", "Your grasp of this particular
area on Struts seems to me to be suspect") and stick to technical specifics
that you can support and justify.
The edits I have made have been to either remove opinonated comments that I
thought were uncalled for or to insert notes making it clear that you were
expressing a personal opinion that was not neccesarily shared by all. I have
not tried to stifle your technical contributions, even where unjustifiably
(IMO) critical.
I haven't seen anyone else try to stifle you either. They have just added
additional information to help provide a more balanced argument. If
anything, you have tried to stifle criticism of your ideas by stating that
your critics do not know what they are talking about and by taking a
proprietary attitude to the Wiki.
My overriding concern is that someone will read those pages and take them as
a) official Apache Struts advice or b) a consensus view formed by the Struts
community. This whole business has made me think very carefully about those
issues and how, as a project, we can monitor the content of the Wiki to
ensure that it remains a helpful resource.
>
> I am not sure whether you are saying what I can say in criticism of
> these ideas is limited here or what. I know that I personally cannot
> control, nor do I wish to, whether or not someone decides to put
> something in the middle of my presentation. That is and has been a
> fact. I more than anyone am mindful of that fact.
>
> I don't know if there are any "rules" on that. Don't you think there
> should be? Am I alone in thinking that putting ideas I am trying to
> discard or to suggest that we discard into the middle of my presentation
> is not the high water mark in courtesy?
Like the mailing list, there are no "rules" only the general consensus of
people using the Wiki. I would expect people making additions to existing
content to insert additional contributions at appropriate places. However,
"appropriate" is not defined by just one person.
>
> Is this not something that is fair discussion on the Struts wiki? I
> admit that I have not been happy with having to deal with and to
> reorganize constantly due to this happening. I thought, however, that
> discussing it might be better than just leaving without seeing whether
> or not there were some implicit if not explict rules on this thing.
As I suggested earlier, it might make more sense to organize your
contributions before posting them to the Wiki. Firstly, this will prevent
other people from making changes / additions before you have completed /
organized yours. Secondly, this would keep down the number of edits and
notifications to the dev list.
>
> I hope you can see this at least a bit from my perspective. Or, do you
> think that my side of this deal has no validity whatsoever? Is the
> request to allow me to fill out this page and to add comments at the end
> or separately totally unreasonable?
I do think you are being unreasonable in expecting people to follow your
format and directions on a public, communal Wiki. It is up to individual
contributors to decide where their contributions are most appropriate. For
the kind of control you are looking for, I think you need to set up your own
web page, with comments or not as you see fit.
If you just want to get your contributions organized before other people
start making edits, then best to do that offline where you won't be
interrupted.
Steve
>
> Michael McGrady
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Hello, Steve,
Thank you for your suggestion. I may have to do that.
I have been using the wiki to present ideas on Struts generally and on
buttons in particular for some time and had no difficulty until I
criticised the DispatchAction solution and its progeny as well as the
ImageButtonBean. I would like to be a part of this community if I can
do so without having to agree or to appear to agree with ideas I do not
care to advance or to advocate. I thought and still think that this
must be possible.
I am not sure whether you are saying what I can say in criticism of
these ideas is limited here or what. I know that I personally cannot
control, nor do I wish to, whether or not someone decides to put
something in the middle of my presentation. That is and has been a
fact. I more than anyone am mindful of that fact.
I don't know if there are any "rules" on that. Don't you think there
should be? Am I alone in thinking that putting ideas I am trying to
discard or to suggest that we discard into the middle of my presentation
is not the high water mark in courtesy?
Is this not something that is fair discussion on the Struts wiki? I
admit that I have not been happy with having to deal with and to
reorganize constantly due to this happening. I thought, however, that
discussing it might be better than just leaving without seeing whether
or not there were some implicit if not explict rules on this thing.
I hope you can see this at least a bit from my perspective. Or, do you
think that my side of this deal has no validity whatsoever? Is the
request to allow me to fill out this page and to add comments at the end
or separately totally unreasonable?
Michael McGrady
Steve Raeburn wrote:
>Michael,
>
>The short answer to people "messing with your format" is to publish your
>ideas/comments on your own web site. Then you could add a link from the Wiki
>if you wish.
>
>I encourage you to do so, or accept the fact that a Wiki page is a communal
>resource.
>
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
>Sent: September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>
>
>Thanks for this response, Matt. I understand your thinking. However,
>the difficulty is that you don't know where I am going with this. No
>way you could, of course, but where I am going does not fit in with
>these ideas.
>
>If people don't know about DispatchAction, etc., they are not the people
>I am trying to talk to at the moment. I am talking about jet cars and
>don't want to include the model-T in my presentation. If others want to
>remind us of the model-T, which has had its day in the Sun, they can do
>so at the end or elsewhere. What is the difficulty with that? The only
>difficulty is that I cannot keep people out of the middle of the page
>and because I have a more generic solution than you know about coming up
>I want to be able to slowly build that.
>
>Let me suggest, Matt, that you start a new page called something like
>"The Known Solutions to Buttons" and you can reference this page? I
>don't want to do that page. I want to do something different. You
>probably don't want to do that page either. If you do, however, it is
>not what I am doing here. I like your idea. I would encourage it. That
>is not what I am doing. Can I do what I am doing? I have added a bit
>more to the start of the wiki to give you an idea. You might look at
>the <crackwillow:image> note.
>
>Michael McGrady
>
>Matt Bathje wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
>>it is easier for me.
>>
>>I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
>>But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
>>detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
>>compare/contrast.
>>
>>Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
>>mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
>>without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
>>old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
>>their opinions of all of them.
>>
>>A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
>>Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
>>problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
>>possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>>
>>I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
>>solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
>>you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
>>that is how you have formatted the page.
>>
>>A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
>>collaboration.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>Michael McGrady wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>>>are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>>>into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>>>is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>>>old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>>>ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>>
>>>Michael McGrady
>>>
>>>Matt Bathje wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>>>going to.
>>>>
>>>>As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>>>about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>>
>>>>The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>>>that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>>>the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>>>page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>>>made his changes.
>>>>
>>>>Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>>>better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>>
>>>>Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>>>something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>>>it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>>>title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>>>person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>>
>>>>Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>>>table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>>>"MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>>>links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>>>solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>>>description of the solution by its link.
>>>>
>>>>Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>>>page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>>
>>>>Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>>>and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>>>follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>>>presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>>>In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>>>views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>>
>>>>Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>>>people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>>>other solutions.
>>>>
>>>>Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>>>of the problems we are seeing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>>>credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>>>those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>>>laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>>>trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>>>in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>>>attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>>>grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>>>and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>>>I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>>>you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>>>simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>>>will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>>>Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>>>to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>>>simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>>>page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>>>different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>>>same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>>>after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>>>page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>>>collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>>>approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>>>new approaches.
>>>>>You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>>>wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>>>here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>>>presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>>>do that in peace?
>>>>>
>>>>>Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>>>like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>>>is the difficulty.
>>>>>I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>>>solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>>>inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>>>is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>>>a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>>>or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I respected what you requested in the
>>>>>>"FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>>>page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>>>subject - I
>>>>>>added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>>>people should
>>>>>>do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>>>have put
>>>>>>them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>>>you also
>>>>>>put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>>>making
>>>>>>reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>>>references.
>>>>>>If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>>>would
>>>>>>have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>>>to want
>>>>>>your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>>>thats the
>>>>>>case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>>>link to
>>>>>>it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>>>any
>>>>>>reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>>>attacks on
>>>>>>me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>>>do you say
>>>>>>"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>>>unecessary and rude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Niall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>>><mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>>>To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>>>despite being
>>>>>>>detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>>>effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>>>do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>>>Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>>>of the
>>>>>>>links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>>>where
>>>>>>>they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>>>status
>>>>>>>and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>>>no way
>>>>>>>to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>>>altogether
>>>>>>>and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>>>whim and
>>>>>>>without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Michael McGrady
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
Michael,
The short answer to people "messing with your format" is to publish your
ideas/comments on your own web site. Then you could add a link from the Wiki
if you wish.
I encourage you to do so, or accept the fact that a Wiki page is a communal
resource.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
Sent: September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Thanks for this response, Matt. I understand your thinking. However,
the difficulty is that you don't know where I am going with this. No
way you could, of course, but where I am going does not fit in with
these ideas.
If people don't know about DispatchAction, etc., they are not the people
I am trying to talk to at the moment. I am talking about jet cars and
don't want to include the model-T in my presentation. If others want to
remind us of the model-T, which has had its day in the Sun, they can do
so at the end or elsewhere. What is the difficulty with that? The only
difficulty is that I cannot keep people out of the middle of the page
and because I have a more generic solution than you know about coming up
I want to be able to slowly build that.
Let me suggest, Matt, that you start a new page called something like
"The Known Solutions to Buttons" and you can reference this page? I
don't want to do that page. I want to do something different. You
probably don't want to do that page either. If you do, however, it is
not what I am doing here. I like your idea. I would encourage it. That
is not what I am doing. Can I do what I am doing? I have added a bit
more to the start of the wiki to give you an idea. You might look at
the <crackwillow:image> note.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
> it is easier for me.
>
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
> compare/contrast.
>
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
> their opinions of all of them.
>
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
> problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
> that is how you have formatted the page.
>
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
> collaboration.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>> are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>> ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>> going to.
>>>
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>> made his changes.
>>>
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>>
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>> other solutions.
>>>
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>> credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>> those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>> page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>> same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>> a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Niall
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Thanks for this response, Matt. I understand your thinking. However,
the difficulty is that you don't know where I am going with this. No
way you could, of course, but where I am going does not fit in with
these ideas.
If people don't know about DispatchAction, etc., they are not the people
I am trying to talk to at the moment. I am talking about jet cars and
don't want to include the model-T in my presentation. If others want to
remind us of the model-T, which has had its day in the Sun, they can do
so at the end or elsewhere. What is the difficulty with that? The only
difficulty is that I cannot keep people out of the middle of the page
and because I have a more generic solution than you know about coming up
I want to be able to slowly build that.
Let me suggest, Matt, that you start a new page called something like
"The Known Solutions to Buttons" and you can reference this page? I
don't want to do that page. I want to do something different. You
probably don't want to do that page either. If you do, however, it is
not what I am doing here. I like your idea. I would encourage it. That
is not what I am doing. Can I do what I am doing? I have added a bit
more to the start of the wiki to give you an idea. You might look at
the <crackwillow:image> note.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
> it is easier for me.
>
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
> compare/contrast.
>
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
> their opinions of all of them.
>
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
> problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
> that is how you have formatted the page.
>
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
> collaboration.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>> are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>> ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>> going to.
>>>
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>> made his changes.
>>>
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>>
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>> other solutions.
>>>
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>> credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
>>>> those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>> page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>> same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
>>>> a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Niall
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com>.
I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
it is easier for me.
I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving detail
why. Having them all in one place allows users to compare/contrast.
Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without mentioning
DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up without messing
with your format. This allows the new ideas and the old ideas to
intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express their opinions of
all of them.
A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
possible/known solutions defined in one place.
I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if you
don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to that
is how you have formatted the page.
A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
collaboration.
Matt
Michael McGrady wrote:
> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page are
> new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put into
> this page have been in public for two years and more. If there is not a
> place to present these new ideas without having to cover the old ones,
> then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new ideas? I
> don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>
> Michael McGrady
>
> Matt Bathje wrote:
>
>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>> going to.
>>
>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is about
>> the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>
>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall made
>> his changes.
>>
>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>
>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes it
>> is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>
>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>> description of the solution by its link.
>>
>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" page.
>> The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>
>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction and
>> its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you follow a
>> format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily presented
>> without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. In the
>> comments section of the main page, people can express their views on
>> which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>
>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try other
>> solutions.
>>
>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most of
>> the problems we are seeing.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>
>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit
>>> your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those
>>> thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you,
>>> because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to
>>> critique and to surpass.
>>>
>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>
>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp
>>> of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you
>>> seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply
>>> put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in
>>> the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to
>>> inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply
>>> am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page.
>>> Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different
>>> approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is
>>> of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a
>>> constant basis is too much for me.
>>>
>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach
>>> and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of new
>>> approaches.
>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do
>>> that in peace?
>>>
>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like,
>>> without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the
>>> difficulty.
>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is
>>> upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new
>>> day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the
>>> wiki will be nuked.
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>
>>>> I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution"
>>>> wiki
>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>> subject - I
>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people
>>>> should
>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>> have put
>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>> you also
>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>>> references.
>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>> would
>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>
>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to
>>>> want
>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>> thats the
>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>> link to
>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>
>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>> attacks on
>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do
>>>> you say
>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>
>>>> Niall
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite
>>>>> being
>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>> of the
>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>> status
>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page are
new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put into
this page have been in public for two years and more. If there is not a
place to present these new ideas without having to cover the old ones,
then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new ideas? I
don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
> going to.
>
> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is about
> the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>
> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall made
> his changes.
>
> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>
> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes it
> is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
> person has chosen as acceptable.
>
> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
> description of the solution by its link.
>
> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" page.
> The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>
> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction and
> its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you follow a
> format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily presented
> without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. In the
> comments section of the main page, people can express their views on
> which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>
> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try other
> solutions.
>
> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most of
> the problems we are seeing.
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit
>> your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those
>> thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you,
>> because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to
>> critique and to surpass.
>>
>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>
>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp
>> of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you
>> seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply
>> put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in
>> the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to
>> inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply
>> am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page.
>> Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different
>> approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is
>> of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a
>> constant basis is too much for me.
>>
>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach
>> and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of new
>> approaches.
>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do
>> that in peace?
>>
>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like,
>> without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the
>> difficulty.
>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is
>> upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new
>> day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the
>> wiki will be nuked.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>>
>>
>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>
>>> I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution"
>>> wiki
>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>> subject - I
>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people
>>> should
>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>> have put
>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>> you also
>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>>> references.
>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>> would
>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>
>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to
>>> want
>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>> thats the
>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>> link to
>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>
>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>> attacks on
>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do
>>> you say
>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>
>>> Niall
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite
>>>> being
>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>
>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>> of the
>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>> status
>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com>.
Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?) going to.
As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is about
the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in the
way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The page is
also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall made his changes.
Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes it
is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current title.
It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1 person has
chosen as acceptable.
Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird table
of contents, use the wiki format. Have
"MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short description
of the solution by its link.
Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" page.
The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction and
its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you follow a
format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily presented
without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. In the
comments section of the main page, people can express their views on
which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell people
what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try other solutions.
Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most of
the problems we are seeing.
Matt
Michael McGrady wrote:
> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit
> your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those
> thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you,
> because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to
> critique and to surpass.
>
> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic in
> any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal attacks
> thing more than I have.
>
> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp of
> this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you seem to
> have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But, you
> and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply put,
> the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in the
> center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to
> inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply am
> trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page. Your
> efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different
> approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is of
> no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a constant
> basis is too much for me.
>
> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no collaboration
> on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach and I used and
> rejected that. I am presenting a series of new approaches.
> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the wiki.
> That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate here. We
> disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is presenting
> alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do that in peace?
>
> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like,
> without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the
> difficulty.
> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly inferior.
> Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is upset at
> having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new day. I
> don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the wiki will be
> nuked.
>
> Michael McGrady
>
>
>
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>
>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>
>> I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the subject
>> - I
>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people
>> should
>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should have put
>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and you
>> also
>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
>> references.
>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I would
>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>
>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to want
>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if thats
>> the
>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>> link to
>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>
>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal attacks on
>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do
>> you say
>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>> unecessary and rude.
>>
>> Niall
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>> <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>> To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>
>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do
>>> that.
>>>
>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>
>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady
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RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
The problem, Michael, is that you just don't listen when some offers you
advice. Your standard response to every criticism is "you don't understand".
As I, and others, have pointed out, you usually put it in far more
inflammatory terms than that.
It's just possible, that if several people "don't understand", that you're
not doing a very code job of explaining yourself. Expressing frustration and
telling everybody they don't know what they are doing is not a good way to
get your message across.
Regarding your confusion, there are no "standards" on this list, except
those imposed by the list members (including you). If enough people think
someone is out of line, then they will express that opinion. If people
object to my use of the description "childish" in relation to your
behaviour, then they will let me know.
However, *you* made it necessary to comment on your behaviour rather than
your code by your personally directed comments. In order to explain why
those comments were causing offence, I had to characterize the comments in a
way that would make it clear. I would defend the description of childish in
the case where someone responds to valid technical criticisms with
frustration and "you don't understand" as being similar to the behaviour of
a child who does not get their own way.
I'd really like to draw a line under this now. If you can accept that the
Wiki is a community resource, tone down the opinions (about people) and
focus on the code and I'm sure we'll all get along fine.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGrady [mailto:mike@michaelmcgrady.com]
Sent: September 24, 2004 11:09 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Thanks for your warning, Steve. I will certainly do everything to
remain courteous. If I fail, I will be more disappointed than anyone else.
I note, Steve, that you call my comments "childish" and implied that
they were neither "sensible" nor "professional" whereas I said that
someone's grasp of an area seemed to be suspect and that their
presentation was not consistent with the "look and feel" on the page. I
don't really mind if you call me childish or unprofessional, because
your opinions about me are none of my business. They are strictly your
business. But, I have to tell you that I am totally confused about what
the standard is here and what I have done wrong except to offer a
critique of a committer which I don't take to be personal at all. I do
think that "childish" is rather personal and seemingly inconsistent with
your stated intentions in this email. I don't mind it, as I said. I
just want you to know it is confusing. It seems to suggest that there
are different standards for committers and non-committers.
I can tell you this: I have no animosity towards anyone on this list. I
was merely trying to build a wiki page with some new ideas on it and
have had a lot of difficulty doing that. I appreciate everyones'
efforts. But, generally speaking, I do stand up for myself. I hope
that is okay. That is what I am doing now.
I don't see where I have taken "personal offence". I really don't. I
am merely trying to find a space to present a fairly complex idea and to
do that I have to have a start. As I try to start, I keep getting
infusions of old ideas into the middle of it and have tried to find a
way to accommodate that. So far, I have been unsuccessful.
Michael McGrady
Steve Raeburn wrote:
>Michael,
>You seem hell bent on taking personal offence at anything and anybody that
>disagrees with you.
>
>*I* have interpreted your comments as being personally directed at Niall
>(and others). It's possible that you genuinely did not mean to cause
>offence - it's very difficult to communicate effectively over email - but
>it's not just a case of Niall being over-sensitive.
>
>Given that you have been told that your comments have caused offence, I
hope
>you will adjust your style to avoid making personal references. You are
free
>to do and say whatever you like on your own website, but I would expect a
>little more courtesy on the Struts Wiki and mailing lists.
>
>For example, rather than engaging in a sensible, professional, discussion
>about the merits of your idea, you resort to childish comments like:
>
>"Your grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and
>you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page."
>
>>>From what I have read, I would have said that description applies less to
>Niall and more to yourself.
>
>For the record, I was interested at first in your dispatch action idea but
I
>saw a few problems with it. Because of your attitude, I am not prepared to
>waste any of my time discussing it with you.
>
>So far, you have impugned the technical abilities and knowledge of at least
>four of the Struts committers. Can I humbly suggest that it's unlikely that
>you are the only one who has a perfect understanding of Struts and that we
>are all idiots?
>
>Steve
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Thanks for your warning, Steve. I will certainly do everything to
remain courteous. If I fail, I will be more disappointed than anyone else.
I note, Steve, that you call my comments "childish" and implied that
they were neither "sensible" nor "professional" whereas I said that
someone's grasp of an area seemed to be suspect and that their
presentation was not consistent with the "look and feel" on the page. I
don't really mind if you call me childish or unprofessional, because
your opinions about me are none of my business. They are strictly your
business. But, I have to tell you that I am totally confused about what
the standard is here and what I have done wrong except to offer a
critique of a committer which I don't take to be personal at all. I do
think that "childish" is rather personal and seemingly inconsistent with
your stated intentions in this email. I don't mind it, as I said. I
just want you to know it is confusing. It seems to suggest that there
are different standards for committers and non-committers.
I can tell you this: I have no animosity towards anyone on this list. I
was merely trying to build a wiki page with some new ideas on it and
have had a lot of difficulty doing that. I appreciate everyones'
efforts. But, generally speaking, I do stand up for myself. I hope
that is okay. That is what I am doing now.
I don't see where I have taken "personal offence". I really don't. I
am merely trying to find a space to present a fairly complex idea and to
do that I have to have a start. As I try to start, I keep getting
infusions of old ideas into the middle of it and have tried to find a
way to accommodate that. So far, I have been unsuccessful.
Michael McGrady
Steve Raeburn wrote:
>Michael,
>You seem hell bent on taking personal offence at anything and anybody that
>disagrees with you.
>
>*I* have interpreted your comments as being personally directed at Niall
>(and others). It's possible that you genuinely did not mean to cause
>offence - it's very difficult to communicate effectively over email - but
>it's not just a case of Niall being over-sensitive.
>
>Given that you have been told that your comments have caused offence, I hope
>you will adjust your style to avoid making personal references. You are free
>to do and say whatever you like on your own website, but I would expect a
>little more courtesy on the Struts Wiki and mailing lists.
>
>For example, rather than engaging in a sensible, professional, discussion
>about the merits of your idea, you resort to childish comments like:
>
>"Your grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and
>you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page."
>
>>>From what I have read, I would have said that description applies less to
>Niall and more to yourself.
>
>For the record, I was interested at first in your dispatch action idea but I
>saw a few problems with it. Because of your attitude, I am not prepared to
>waste any of my time discussing it with you.
>
>So far, you have impugned the technical abilities and knowledge of at least
>four of the Struts committers. Can I humbly suggest that it's unlikely that
>you are the only one who has a perfect understanding of Struts and that we
>are all idiots?
>
>Steve
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
Michael,
You seem hell bent on taking personal offence at anything and anybody that
disagrees with you.
*I* have interpreted your comments as being personally directed at Niall
(and others). It's possible that you genuinely did not mean to cause
offence - it's very difficult to communicate effectively over email - but
it's not just a case of Niall being over-sensitive.
Given that you have been told that your comments have caused offence, I hope
you will adjust your style to avoid making personal references. You are free
to do and say whatever you like on your own website, but I would expect a
little more courtesy on the Struts Wiki and mailing lists.
For example, rather than engaging in a sensible, professional, discussion
about the merits of your idea, you resort to childish comments like:
"Your grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and
you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page."
>From what I have read, I would have said that description applies less to
Niall and more to yourself.
For the record, I was interested at first in your dispatch action idea but I
saw a few problems with it. Because of your attitude, I am not prepared to
waste any of my time discussing it with you.
So far, you have impugned the technical abilities and knowledge of at least
four of the Struts committers. Can I humbly suggest that it's unlikely that
you are the only one who has a perfect understanding of Struts and that we
are all idiots?
Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit
your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those
thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you,
because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to
critique and to surpass.
I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic in
any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal attacks
thing more than I have.
I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp of
this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you seem to
have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But, you
and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply put,
the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in the
center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to
inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply am
trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page. Your
efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different
approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is of
no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a constant
basis is too much for me.
The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no collaboration
on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach and I used and
rejected that. I am presenting a series of new approaches.
You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the wiki.
That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate here. We
disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is presenting
alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do that in peace?
Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like,
without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the
difficulty.
I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly inferior.
Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is upset at
having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new day. I
don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the wiki will be
nuked.
Michael McGrady
Niall Pemberton wrote:
>OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>
>I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>page and all I did was add two links which were related to the subject - I
>added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people should
>do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should have put
>them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and you also
>put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
>reference to me so last night I went through removing all those references.
>If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I would
>have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>
>The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to want
>your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if thats the
>case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a link to
>it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
>reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>
>I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal attacks on
>me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do you say
>"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>unecessary and rude.
>
>Niall
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael McGrady" <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
>To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>
>
>
>
>>I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
>>detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>effectively confuses the issue.
>>
>>I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
>>
>>You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
>>links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>
>>Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
>>and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>without much knowledge of this area.
>>
>>Michael McGrady
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
page and all I did was add two links which were related to the subject - I
added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people should
do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should have put
them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and you also
put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
reference to me so last night I went through removing all those references.
If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I would
have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to want
your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if thats the
case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a link to
it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal attacks on
me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do you say
"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
unecessary and rude.
Niall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael McGrady" <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>
To: "Struts Developers List" <de...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
> effectively confuses the issue.
>
> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
>
> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>
> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
> without much knowledge of this area.
>
> Michael McGrady
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Thanks, Martin. Maybe a wiki is not the place to present this idea.
Maybe I should just take it down and take it elsewhere. I have to admit
that I thought there woudl be more standards to adding to the page. I
probably will take this elsewhere and make a link. Michael McGrady
P.S. Okay, Jim, you can do it now! LOL
Martin Cooper wrote:
>You should realise that no wiki page is owned by any one person more
>than any other, regardless of who creates it. Once created, it is
>community owned, and any member of the community is free to add their
>changes in whatever form they feel appropriate. If you want to control
>the content and format of the page, as it appears that you do, then
>the wiki is the wrong place for that. Instead, you should put your
>content up on a web site that is under your control. Of course, you
>are free, then, to add a link to that web site from the wiki.
>
>--
>Martin Cooper
>
>
>On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:16:33 -0700, Michael McGrady
><mi...@michaelmcgrady.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
>>detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
>>because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>effectively confuses the issue.
>>
>>I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
>>
>>You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
>>links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
>>they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>
>>Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
>>and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
>>to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
>>and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
>>without much knowledge of this area.
>>
>>Michael McGrady
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: [Excised] Help
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:37:00 -0700, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>You should realise that no wiki page is owned by any one person more
>>than any other, regardless of who creates it. Once created, it is
>>community owned, and any member of the community is free to add their
>>changes in whatever form they feel appropriate. If you want to control
>>the content and format of the page, as it appears that you do, then
>>the wiki is the wrong place for that. Instead, you should put your
>>content up on a web site that is under your control. Of course, you
>>are free, then, to add a link to that web site from the wiki.
>>
>>--
>>Martin Cooper
>>
>>
>
>+1.
>
>Craig
>
I feel a need to add two things here.
First, the problem was not that of a wiki where people were working and
I wanted control. The problem was one person was trying to advance an
idea and another was trying to battle it in the same space. That is not
workable no matter what. I would have been more than happy to cooperate
with anyone on ideas.
Second, as a somewhat humorous postscript, I moved my stuff off the
StrutsCatalog even though I had been pretty much the only person to use
the StrutsCatalog space in many months and those who advocated have the
"freedom" to what they wanted on the wiki then objected both to where my
link went to and the nature of the link.
So, I gave up and just abandoned all connection to the wiki whatsoever.
There is only so much interference worth the while.
But, on the point Martin made, I would also vote:
+1
Your turn, Jim! ;-)
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:37:00 -0700, Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You should realise that no wiki page is owned by any one person more
> than any other, regardless of who creates it. Once created, it is
> community owned, and any member of the community is free to add their
> changes in whatever form they feel appropriate. If you want to control
> the content and format of the page, as it appears that you do, then
> the wiki is the wrong place for that. Instead, you should put your
> content up on a web site that is under your control. Of course, you
> are free, then, to add a link to that web site from the wiki.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
+1.
Craig
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Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Posted by Martin Cooper <mf...@gmail.com>.
You should realise that no wiki page is owned by any one person more
than any other, regardless of who creates it. Once created, it is
community owned, and any member of the community is free to add their
changes in whatever form they feel appropriate. If you want to control
the content and format of the page, as it appears that you do, then
the wiki is the wrong place for that. Instead, you should put your
content up on a web site that is under your control. Of course, you
are free, then, to add a link to that web site from the wiki.
--
Martin Cooper
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:16:33 -0700, Michael McGrady
<mi...@michaelmcgrady.com> wrote:
> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
> effectively confuses the issue.
>
> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
>
> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>
> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
> without much knowledge of this area.
>
> Michael McGrady
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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