RE: presentation help needed: Cocoon apps vs other apps?

[Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>]

Coming in from the side.... there were some earlier
threads where it was suggested that a full-scale web-
application should not be created in either Struts or
solely in Cocoon - but the EJB , with Cocoon as the 
presentation front-end, were the way to go.... your opinion
may differ widely, of course, but its worth reading those
threads to see what the arguments are.  We also have
developers here that are "sold" on Struts - I would like
to better understand where and how these two approaches
differ or overlap; how to know which one to choose and,
ideally, how and where they can actually work together!
 
My 2c
Derek

>>> akuketayev@cox.net 25/02/2003 07:22:56 >>>
Do you mean just plain web application?

It's Struts' territory :) Seriously, Cocoon has a steep learning curve.
So,
it's hard to "sell" it, unless there's something special in the
webapp,
imho. If I propose Cocoon as a platform for generic webapps, then I
must be
able to defend this view. I'm not sure that I can do it.

I've to give more thought on this though.

thanks,
Argyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Hoegg [mailto:rhoegg@isisnetworks.net] 
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:12 PM
> To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: presentation help needed: Cocoon apps
>
>
> Hi Argyn,
>
> I'm not sure if you would consider this to fall under
> "portals", but you
> might also want to include its use as a platform for web
> applications.
>  You could talk about XMLForms and Actions.
>
> --
> Ryan Hoegg
> ISIS Networks
> http://www.isisnetworks.net 
>
> Argyn wrote:
>
> >Hello!
> >
> >I already wrote here, that I'm preparing a presentation on Cocoon.
> >
> >I'm almost done. I've one section left, which is about types of
> >tasks/projects, where Cocoon can be used most effectively.
> >
> >I have this so far:
> >Portals - obvious, I can say something about portal project too
> >WebServices - both as a web service provider and consumer
> >Publishing and document processing - obvious
> >EAI and/or (Data mining and reporting)- Cocoon's aggregation
> from data
> >sources can be used for system integration - this is my favourite!
> >
> >Also, I'd love to get a project where I can use Cocoon vs
> OLAP. I've a
> >feeling that Cocoon's going to beat OLAP
> >
> >Ok, if you have any other suggestions, they'll be
> appreciated and considered
> >
> >cheers,
> >Argyn
> >
>
>
>
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RE: presentation help needed: Cocoon apps vs other apps?

[Argyn <ak...@cox.net>]

I'm not sold on Struts, but I use it. I have nothing against the idea of
using Cocoon as sole platform for generic webapps. However, as one foreign
minister said "I'm not convinced" :) Therefore, I'm not comfortable to
suggest this approach to others.

Recently, I had to design a webapp. I even didn't consider Cocoon. We have a
tight schedule. None of the developers know about Cocoon, and I had
reservations about their familiarity with XML/XSL stuff. It's a totally
different world for most Java programmers. It would be too risky to pick
Cocoon.

Struts is very natural when it comes to interactive webapps. It supports
familiar procedural thinking with well known design patterns. It's
relatively easy to jump start. Cocoon is from different mind set. However,
when I had to design document generation module for Struts based app, I
immidiately thought about Cocoon. It was very natural to try it. I didn't
have troubles to plug into Struts: Struts handled all user interaction, when
we gathered all parameters, the HTTP request is sent for Cocoon to generate
a document. It worked seamlessly. The only problem was that some people were
not convinced that Cocoon is as scalable as JSP. The prejudice was so
strong, that for them it was somehow seen better to generate input XML with
JSP, then feed it into document processor. Whereas in Cocoon design there
wouldn't be streamed XML, the XSP would send database input directly into
the pipeline with custom serializer.

Cocoon is hard sell for generic webapps in Java world. When you explain the
architecture of Cocoon, everyone gets excited. I've seen it many times. When
it coms to actual implementation, people get concerned that "it's an
overkill for our situation, we don't have time" etc. It really shines in
non-trivial circumstances.

Argyn
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Derek Hohls [mailto:DHohls@csir.co.za]
  Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:47 AM
  To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
  Subject: RE: presentation help needed: Cocoon apps vs other apps?


  We also have
  developers here that are "sold" on Struts - I would like
  to better understand where and how these two approaches
  differ or overlap; how to know which one to choose and,
  ideally, how and where they can actually work together!

  My 2c
  Derek