You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Alan D. Cabrera" <ad...@toolazydogs.com> on 2005/12/27 17:13:17 UTC
Starting a java specs project
There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project which
would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as other
standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate "copies" of the
source code for the same JSR floating around in different Apache
projects. It would be a great idea to move them all into one project.
This idea, so far, has been met with much enthusiasm.
How do we get this started?
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Reasons for not Jakarta:
>>>
>>>*) Java specific.
>>>
>>
>>I wonder why it has to be Java-specific ? Aren't there any standards
>>that contains bindings for several languages ?
>
>
> Good point. I originally meant that if we wanted specs from other
> languages to be there, Jakarta wouldn't make sense. However for
> something like SAX or DOM, it's less about another language spec and
> more about a cross-language spec.
Well, there is Tuscany's SCA and SDO, which are language neutral,
although I don't know if there are meaningful artifacts for other
languages like API jars for JSRs. I guess there are header files and
such....
geir
>
> No idea to be honest. If we go with Jakarta or JCP as a location; I
> think we just treat them as exceptions to be dealt with.
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/30/2005 10:18 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Reasons for not Jakarta:
>>>
>>>*) Java specific.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I wonder why it has to be Java-specific ? Aren't there any standards
>>that contains bindings for several languages ?
>>
>>
>
>Good point. I originally meant that if we wanted specs from other
>languages to be there, Jakarta wouldn't make sense. However for
>something like SAX or DOM, it's less about another language spec and
>more about a cross-language spec.
>
>No idea to be honest. If we go with Jakarta or JCP as a location; I
>think we just treat them as exceptions to be dealt with.
>
>
I think that we're over thinking this. Let's start w/ Java and cross
the multi-language issue bridge when we come to it.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Reasons for not Jakarta:
> >
> > *) Java specific.
> >
> I wonder why it has to be Java-specific ? Aren't there any standards
> that contains bindings for several languages ?
Good point. I originally meant that if we wanted specs from other
languages to be there, Jakarta wouldn't make sense. However for
something like SAX or DOM, it's less about another language spec and
more about a cross-language spec.
No idea to be honest. If we go with Jakarta or JCP as a location; I
think we just treat them as exceptions to be dealt with.
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Reasons for Jakarta would be:
>
> *) Good reuse of branding. Jakarta is still 'Java@Apache' to many out
> there and I think we should use this instead of letting it drop.
>
> *) Helps Jakarta become a Java Federation. Code reflects community
> reflects code. By bringing the shared code to Jakarta, I believe the
> shared community will be enhanced. Commons is already shared code,
> though that is lessened recently because Jakarta is no longer the
> shared community. Bringing the spec jars to Jakarta will help bring
> the shared community.
>
> *) Jakarta is neutral ground in Java terms at Apache. Increasingly so
> as everyone leaves.
>
> Reasons for not Jakarta:
>
> *) Java specific.
>
> *) Existing community might be -1 [I've not seen negatives yet though]
>
> *) Have to mollify the worries about the 'old Jakarta'.
>
> *) It could just go under the jcp structure.
I wonder why it has to be Java-specific ? Aren't there any standards
that contains bindings for several languages ?
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Dec 27, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > ie) Keep them as a part of Jakarta Commons [the community development
> > at Jakarta] or make a third component in Jakarta [along with Jakarta
> > General, the conversation place] called Jakarta Specs.
> >
>
> I'm not sure why Jakarta. Since we've been talking about this (over
Reasons for Jakarta would be:
*) Good reuse of branding. Jakarta is still 'Java@Apache' to many out
there and I think we should use this instead of letting it drop.
*) Helps Jakarta become a Java Federation. Code reflects community
reflects code. By bringing the shared code to Jakarta, I believe the
shared community will be enhanced. Commons is already shared code,
though that is lessened recently because Jakarta is no longer the
shared community. Bringing the spec jars to Jakarta will help bring
the shared community.
*) Jakarta is neutral ground in Java terms at Apache. Increasingly so
as everyone leaves.
Reasons for not Jakarta:
*) Java specific.
*) Existing community might be -1 [I've not seen negatives yet though]
*) Have to mollify the worries about the 'old Jakarta'.
*) It could just go under the jcp structure.
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 12/27/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>> My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or
>>> flatten them into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella
>>> Jakarta (I know, you didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime).
>>> This new Jakarta would have the potential to serve two roles:
>>>
>>> 1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
>>> 2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
>>>
>>> Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think;
>>> it would help bring people to Jakarta to share code and
>>> conversation, and the Commons community would make good stewards
>>> for the code if the various owners departed.
>>
>> I'm not sure if I buy that last one - do you really think that the
>> commons people are willing to do that? why?
>
> Yeah, I've forwarded this to general@jakarta as well so I can get
> feedback from both sides. The above meant 'the commons community way'
> rather than the exact people. ie) I'm expecting the original coders
> to, in most cases, still be maintaining and working on the code.
>
> Yoav pointed out that one problem with this is that some of these
> things have Expert Group authorization issues. Unsure if we would try
> to get rid of those or just maintain them.
There are no EG authorization issues. We're talking about just doing
independent spec jars, right? Not implementations of the specs
themselves, but just a place for shared spec jars. Like "get the
javadoc for JSR-FOO when it's done, and site and type in the interfaces"
>
> ie) Keep them as a part of Jakarta Commons [the community development
> at Jakarta] or make a third component in Jakarta [along with Jakarta
> General, the conversation place] called Jakarta Specs.
>
I'm not sure why Jakarta. Since we've been talking about this (over
a year?) in Geronomo, I always saw this really as a "depot" just to
get rid of the collisions, rather than any chance for community -
this is really just housekeeping. There are no real opportunities
for creative work, and once done, they won't change until the next
rev of the specs come out. It's just stenography for the most part.
True, there are specs for which there is code in the API, such as
factories or in the case of Javamail, deeper implementation, but I'd
expect that this would be done by the specific projects that are
doing the full impl, such as WS-Scout people doing the JAXR API
stuff, $whoever_owns_javamail (G right now) doing the javamail spec
jars, etc.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/30/2005 6:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 28, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> On 12/27/2005 4:25 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>>
>>> Discussion of upcoming specs, discussion of usage of the specs, a
>>> users list that helps people use the specs (this is necessary, but
>>> worries me about getting "how do I do servlets" type questions).
>>>
>>> I guess there is also scope to innovate in addition to the specs and
>>> work on commons components that do things the specs missed.
>>>
>>> Is there much non-code activity around specs in Geronimo right now?
>>>
>>
>> There is no activity. Once the specs have passed the TCK, people
>> are really only interested in the implementation that's on top of
>> the specs.
>
>
> Right- and I don't think of it as the spec passing the TCK. The spec
> jars we're doing here are really (for the most part, for modern JSRs
> done by clueful EGs) just copying what we read in the API docs, right?
Yep.
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 28, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> On 12/27/2005 4:25 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>
>> Discussion of upcoming specs, discussion of usage of the specs, a
>> users list that helps people use the specs (this is necessary, but
>> worries me about getting "how do I do servlets" type questions).
>>
>> I guess there is also scope to innovate in addition to the specs and
>> work on commons components that do things the specs missed.
>>
>> Is there much non-code activity around specs in Geronimo right now?
>>
>
> There is no activity. Once the specs have passed the TCK, people
> are really only interested in the implementation that's on top of
> the specs.
Right- and I don't think of it as the spec passing the TCK. The spec
jars we're doing here are really (for the most part, for modern JSRs
done by clueful EGs) just copying what we read in the API docs, right?
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geir@optonline.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/27/2005 4:25 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>Discussion of upcoming specs, discussion of usage of the specs, a
>users list that helps people use the specs (this is necessary, but
>worries me about getting "how do I do servlets" type questions).
>
>I guess there is also scope to innovate in addition to the specs and
>work on commons components that do things the specs missed.
>
>Is there much non-code activity around specs in Geronimo right now?
>
>
There is no activity. Once the specs have passed the TCK, people are
really only interested in the implementation that's on top of the specs.
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
Discussion of upcoming specs, discussion of usage of the specs, a
users list that helps people use the specs (this is necessary, but
worries me about getting "how do I do servlets" type questions).
I guess there is also scope to innovate in addition to the specs and
work on commons components that do things the specs missed.
Is there much non-code activity around specs in Geronimo right now?
- Brett
On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> Seems like an oxymoron, community should be active, but the code may
> not, no? How can this be?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On 12/27/2005 4:04 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>
> >I'm no sure I agree. I think the community should be active, but the
> >code may not be. Perhaps too optimistic :)
> >
> >- Brett
> >
> >On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I would think that given its very nature, specs, the community would not
> >>be very active at all.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 from me too. Let's do it. We can move the saaj/jaxrpc/jaxws specs
out from Axis tree.
-- dims
On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> >
> > I still don't see #1. However, I still feel that this all belongs in
> > Jakarta Commons.
>
> Of the 6 people involved in the thread here, I'd guess at 3 +1's to
> start this at Jakarta right away; and nothing from Jochen/Hiram/Geir
> seems like a -1.
>
> Shall I go ahead and call a vote on general@jakarta and get the ball
> moving? Would anyone else prefer to be doing that?
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
I need to catch up, clearly. I thought I suggested we do here in
anticipation of a TLP. I've been being lazy the past few days. I'll
go read and reply now...
geir
On Dec 30, 2005, at 9:10 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>>
>> I still don't see #1. However, I still feel that this all belongs in
>> Jakarta Commons.
>
> Of the 6 people involved in the thread here, I'd guess at 3 +1's to
> start this at Jakarta right away; and nothing from Jochen/Hiram/Geir
> seems like a -1.
>
> Shall I go ahead and call a vote on general@jakarta and get the ball
> moving? Would anyone else prefer to be doing that?
>
> Hen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
> I still don't see #1. However, I still feel that this all belongs in
> Jakarta Commons.
Of the 6 people involved in the thread here, I'd guess at 3 +1's to
start this at Jakarta right away; and nothing from Jochen/Hiram/Geir
seems like a -1.
Shall I go ahead and call a vote on general@jakarta and get the ball
moving? Would anyone else prefer to be doing that?
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/27/2005 7:12 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>On 12/27/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Seems like an oxymoron, community should be active, but the code may
>>not, no? How can this be?
>>
>>
>
>Two ways:
>
>1) The conversation that Brett mentions. General pan-apache Java
>things. I'm a little worried about any authorization issues where only
>an EG is able to commit. If they get quiet, the community would be
>unable to make changes.
>
>I agree with Brett on the worry about 'how do I do servlets'
>questions. My recommendation would be to avoid a specs-users list
>until there are people asking relevant questions. Just make a
>specs-dev list to start with.
>
>2) The commons community to the side provides a paralleling structure,
>with hopefully much of the same people in both; people who do
>pan-apache Java things.
>
>
I still don't see #1. However, I still feel that this all belongs in
Jakarta Commons.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
IIRC, they are going to be the RI for JDO2.
I think that an indep impl that isn't the RI would be healthy. Maybe we
could base on the JPOX2 codebase as a start. It won't be a fork, IMO.
I don't have the time though...
geir
Thomas Dudziak wrote:
> On 12/30/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Not sure if the JDO spec is being referenced, but that is a spec+TCK project
>>>only, where a portion of th EG are ASF committers and the spec development
>>>happens on the ASF infrastructure.
>>
>>I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's something
>>we should point to somehow.
>>
>>It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>
>
> If I remember correctly, we asked the JPOX guys unofficially some time
> ago whether they would consider becoming an Apache project, but in the
> end they didn't want to. Perhaps Craig knows more.
>
> Tom
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > Not sure if the JDO spec is being referenced, but that is a spec+TCK project
> > only, where a portion of th EG are ASF committers and the spec development
> > happens on the ASF infrastructure.
>
> I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's something
> we should point to somehow.
>
> It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
If I remember correctly, we asked the JPOX guys unofficially some time
ago whether they would consider becoming an Apache project, but in the
end they didn't want to. Perhaps Craig knows more.
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Dec 30, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
> On 12/31/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's
>> something
>> we should point to somehow.
>
> I agree. This point actually raises something else - it would be a bit
> silly to have a specs project ("here are all our Java specs!") if it
> doesn't have them all ("...except this one, this one, and this one").
>
> Is it worth asking them to move too, and do we need to make sure they
> all agree first, or do we just agree to link out to them?
Once it's in an easily-obtained and well-advertised download location
does it matter where the jdo-spec jar is built? There is a good
reason to build the jdo-spec jar as part of the project (it's a
dependency of the other sub-projects in Apache JDO).
>
> I understand the earlier point that there might not be a lot of coding
> going on here and that might hinder building any community around it.
> However, its another excuse for a bunch of people doing Java stuff to
> get together in one place, and maybe meet a wider community of people
> at Apache. That can only be a good thing.
>
>> It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>
> Getting off-topic, but does that really need to be here? Is there
> anything stopping people from getting involved in jpox, who as I
> understand it work very closely with the jdo team here and are the RI?
The JPOX folks who provide the JDO 2 RI are also committers on the
Apache JDO project. Not the reverse, but there's no stopping Apache
JDO folks from joining the JPOX project.
Craig
>
> - Brett
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/30/05, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understand the earlier point that there might not be a lot of coding
> going on here and that might hinder building any community around it.
> However, its another excuse for a bunch of people doing Java stuff to
> get together in one place, and maybe meet a wider community of people
> at Apache. That can only be a good thing.
In the case of a spec project, a project-focused community is probably
difficult to build. However, it could be a one-stop place for users to
ask questions about any of the specs, or not ? After all, I certainly
expect that if there is a, say j2ee spec in there, that there are also
j2ee experts involved in the project. So instead of asking a
not-really-Geronimo j2ee question in the Geronimo lists, it might make
more sense to ask it here. Though that would probably be more of a
forum-type community rather than a mailinglist-type community.
> > It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>
> Getting off-topic, but does that really need to be here? Is there
> anything stopping people from getting involved in jpox, who as I
> understand it work very closely with the jdo team here and are the RI?
I agree. JPOX is a healthy project with an Apache 2 license, so IMO it
would be perfectly fine for any Apache project to use jpox. I would
not be surprised if some of the Apache JDO folks are actually involved
in their community.
I don't see a reason why we have to implement every JSR, esp. if there
are capable and healthy non-Apache projects out there whose license
does not conflict with the Apache license. Of course we might approach
them and ask whether they would like to join Apache, but if they don't
want to, so be it.
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Dec 30, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> On Dec 30, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Does it need to? only if people want it. JPOX is the RI, and I
>>> always feel that a truly competitive impl of a spec isn't going
>>> to be the RI. You don't want to do real extension and surrounding
>>> innovation in an RI, I figure...
>> I don't necessarily agree with either point. JPOX has gained a lot
>> of credibility and good press by being the RI, and it will
>> continue to innovate in the product space as well.
>
> I'm not at all in any way attacking or disrespecting JPOX. I just
> tend to keep a clear distinction between RI and indep impls.
I was commenting on " a truly competitive impl of a spec isn't going
to be the RI", which I agree with in most cases but not necessarily all.
>
>> The Sun-branded Java EE server is also the RI and has been for the
>> last three releases starting with J2EE 1.3.
>> Of course, for some, I've proved your point. ;-)
>
> Yes, I think you did exactly. And it was my understanding that the
> Sun-branded server isn't quite the RI? That product development
> also goes on top of the RI to make the products?
The only difference between the RI and Sun's entry-level enterprise
(oxymoron?) product offering is the branding/installation. Sun has
additional products that add functionality to the RI like clustering
and failover.
Craig
>
> geir
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> On Dec 30, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>> Does it need to? only if people want it. JPOX is the RI, and I
>> always feel that a truly competitive impl of a spec isn't going to be
>> the RI. You don't want to do real extension and surrounding innovation
>> in an RI, I figure...
>
>
> I don't necessarily agree with either point. JPOX has gained a lot of
> credibility and good press by being the RI, and it will continue to
> innovate in the product space as well.
I'm not at all in any way attacking or disrespecting JPOX. I just tend
to keep a clear distinction between RI and indep impls.
>
> The Sun-branded Java EE server is also the RI and has been for the last
> three releases starting with J2EE 1.3.
>
> Of course, for some, I've proved your point. ;-)
Yes, I think you did exactly. And it was my understanding that the
Sun-branded server isn't quite the RI? That product development also
goes on top of the RI to make the products?
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Dec 30, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Brett Porter wrote:
>> On 12/31/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's
>>> something
>>> we should point to somehow.
>> I agree. This point actually raises something else - it would be a
>> bit
>> silly to have a specs project ("here are all our Java specs!") if it
>> doesn't have them all ("...except this one, this one, and this one").
>
> Well, we can't force anyone, and I just assume that projects will
> see the utility. There's nothing really interesting about these
> spec jars, so they would be just a consumer as well (with help
> maintaining, I suppose).
>
>> Is it worth asking them to move too, and do we need to make sure they
>> all agree first, or do we just agree to link out to them?
>
> On a website? I guess we could point to them, to try and shame
> them into bringing the stuff over :)
>
>> I understand the earlier point that there might not be a lot of
>> coding
>> going on here and that might hinder building any community around it.
>> However, its another excuse for a bunch of people doing Java stuff to
>> get together in one place, and maybe meet a wider community of people
>> at Apache. That can only be a good thing.
>
> The thing is, I don't think we should set any high expectations
> about community, because unlike Jakarta Commons, where there was/is
> active development around the projects, the spec jars are pretty
> static and boring...
>
>>> It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>> Getting off-topic, but does that really need to be here? Is there
>> anything stopping people from getting involved in jpox, who as I
>> understand it work very closely with the jdo team here and are the
>> RI?
>
> Does it need to? only if people want it. JPOX is the RI, and I
> always feel that a truly competitive impl of a spec isn't going to
> be the RI. You don't want to do real extension and surrounding
> innovation in an RI, I figure...
I don't necessarily agree with either point. JPOX has gained a lot of
credibility and good press by being the RI, and it will continue to
innovate in the product space as well.
The Sun-branded Java EE server is also the RI and has been for the
last three releases starting with J2EE 1.3.
Of course, for some, I've proved your point. ;-)
Craig
>
> geir
>
>> - Brett
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Brett Porter wrote:
> On 12/31/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's something
>>we should point to somehow.
>
>
> I agree. This point actually raises something else - it would be a bit
> silly to have a specs project ("here are all our Java specs!") if it
> doesn't have them all ("...except this one, this one, and this one").
Well, we can't force anyone, and I just assume that projects will see
the utility. There's nothing really interesting about these spec jars,
so they would be just a consumer as well (with help maintaining, I suppose).
>
> Is it worth asking them to move too, and do we need to make sure they
> all agree first, or do we just agree to link out to them?
On a website? I guess we could point to them, to try and shame them
into bringing the stuff over :)
>
> I understand the earlier point that there might not be a lot of coding
> going on here and that might hinder building any community around it.
> However, its another excuse for a bunch of people doing Java stuff to
> get together in one place, and maybe meet a wider community of people
> at Apache. That can only be a good thing.
The thing is, I don't think we should set any high expectations about
community, because unlike Jakarta Commons, where there was/is active
development around the projects, the spec jars are pretty static and
boring...
>
>
>>It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>
>
> Getting off-topic, but does that really need to be here? Is there
> anything stopping people from getting involved in jpox, who as I
> understand it work very closely with the jdo team here and are the RI?
Does it need to? only if people want it. JPOX is the RI, and I always
feel that a truly competitive impl of a spec isn't going to be the RI.
You don't want to do real extension and surrounding innovation in an RI,
I figure...
geir
>
> - Brett
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
On 12/31/05, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's something
> we should point to somehow.
I agree. This point actually raises something else - it would be a bit
silly to have a specs project ("here are all our Java specs!") if it
doesn't have them all ("...except this one, this one, and this one").
Is it worth asking them to move too, and do we need to make sure they
all agree first, or do we just agree to link out to them?
I understand the earlier point that there might not be a lot of coding
going on here and that might hinder building any community around it.
However, its another excuse for a bunch of people doing Java stuff to
get together in one place, and maybe meet a wider community of people
at Apache. That can only be a good thing.
> It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
Getting off-topic, but does that really need to be here? Is there
anything stopping people from getting involved in jpox, who as I
understand it work very closely with the jdo team here and are the RI?
- Brett
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> 4. Apache JDO (which notwithstanding information on the incubator web
> site has graduated;-)
Hey, I fixed the source page. Didn't the magical process happen to get
it published? :)
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/30/2005 10:29 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> 2. There is no reason that I know of to restrict commit privileges on
> the javax code to expert group members. The TCKs typically include
> signature tests that verify that the interfaces and classes contain
> exactly what they are supposed to.
I agree but, I don't think that anyone is proposing this.
> 4. Apache JDO (which notwithstanding information on the incubator web
> site has graduated;-) is a project that is implementing both the API
> and the TCK. It's not clear to me what the advantage is to putting the
> API part in another project. Other projects that want to access the
> API jar can simply reference it via maven or download the jar files.
I think that there is something compelling about one-stop-shopping for APIs.
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I have a few observations that might help inform what we do here.
1. There is often what you might call "implementation" in the
javax.<spec> domain. There are bootstrap classes in the JSR 220 and
JSRs 12 and 243 that must be implemented by the javax code. And
Exceptions and Errors have to be classes. But 99% of the time, the
javax material comprises interfaces that an implementation is
supposed to implement.
2. There is no reason that I know of to restrict commit privileges on
the javax code to expert group members. The TCKs typically include
signature tests that verify that the interfaces and classes contain
exactly what they are supposed to.
3. There is ongoing maintenance on the javax code in a JSR.
Clarifications in the specification often lead to slight changes in
the implementation of classes. Less frequently, an API can be added
to a specified interface (doesn't change backward compatibility but
adds functionality).
4. Apache JDO (which notwithstanding information on the incubator web
site has graduated;-) is a project that is implementing both the API
and the TCK. It's not clear to me what the advantage is to putting
the API part in another project. Other projects that want to access
the API jar can simply reference it via maven or download the jar files.
5. The JDO spec development is done in the open via cross-posting to
the official JDO expert group alias and the apache-jdo dev alias. But
this practice is not very common; many JSRs are developed in secret.
6. The roadmap for the Apache JDO project includes an implementation
of the JDO 2 specification for relational and other databases. There
is synergy with Tomcat, Geronimo, and the DB TLPs to integrate this
future implementation into web and application servers and tools.
Craig
On Dec 30, 2005, at 9:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>> On Friday 30 December 2005 22:52, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>> I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert
>>> Group have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars
>>> for completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are
>>> any that require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
>> Not sure if the JDO spec is being referenced, but that is a spec
>> +TCK project only, where a portion of th EG are ASF committers and
>> the spec development happens on the ASF infrastructure.
>
> I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's
> something we should point to somehow.
>
> It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
>
> geir
>
>> Cheers
>> Niclas
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Friday 30 December 2005 22:52, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert Group
>>have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars for
>>completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are any that
>>require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
>
>
> Not sure if the JDO spec is being referenced, but that is a spec+TCK project
> only, where a portion of th EG are ASF committers and the spec development
> happens on the ASF infrastructure.
I think it was just coming out of incubation, but yes, that's something
we should point to somehow.
It would be nice to have a JDO2 impl here as well...
geir
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 30 December 2005 22:52, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert Group
> have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars for
> completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are any that
> require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
Not sure if the JDO spec is being referenced, but that is a spec+TCK project
only, where a portion of th EG are ASF committers and the spec development
happens on the ASF infrastructure.
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Yoav Shapira wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>>I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert Group
>>have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars for
>>completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are any that
>>require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
>
>
> I raised the EG commit point for cases of completed JSRs that later
> have corrections or errata, or simply things like typos in the
> JavaDocs or even implementation bugs in the examples if any are
> included with the APIs themselves. We've seen this happen every now
> and then (not often at all, but it does happen, maybe once per year)
> with the Servlet and JSP APIs in the Tomcat world.
Sure - but in that case, the EG should/is required to do an update on
the spec itself, that would be somehow labeled, and we'd update from
there, right?
It would be great to get EGs to come fix our code, but I don't think
that would happen except in rare cases, and those would be just because
we happen to have a community member on the EG.
>
> For a long time the relevant CVS modules (jakarta-servletapi,
> jakarta-servletapi-5) only granted commit access to Servlet/JSP EG
> members, not all Tomcat committers, and if some of the EG members were
> busy elsewhere, typos and corrections to the spec stuff would take
> forever to fix. This is unfortunate because when these rare things do
> occur, they are a high-visibility issue that should be addressed
> immediately.
Right. Agreed. Maybe we don't have external EG-only commit rights in
the future ;) ?
>
> (The situation is now better for these specific APIs since we moved to
> SVN and I believe the entire Tomcat PMC may have commit privilges to
> the tomcat/servletapi tree, but I'd like to ensure it doesn't happen
> in this new specs project).
I see. Thanks.
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
Hi,
> I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert Group
> have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars for
> completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are any that
> require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
I raised the EG commit point for cases of completed JSRs that later
have corrections or errata, or simply things like typos in the
JavaDocs or even implementation bugs in the examples if any are
included with the APIs themselves. We've seen this happen every now
and then (not often at all, but it does happen, maybe once per year)
with the Servlet and JSP APIs in the Tomcat world.
For a long time the relevant CVS modules (jakarta-servletapi,
jakarta-servletapi-5) only granted commit access to Servlet/JSP EG
members, not all Tomcat committers, and if some of the EG members were
busy elsewhere, typos and corrections to the spec stuff would take
forever to fix. This is unfortunate because when these rare things do
occur, they are a high-visibility issue that should be addressed
immediately.
(The situation is now better for these specific APIs since we moved to
SVN and I believe the entire Tomcat PMC may have commit privilges to
the tomcat/servletapi tree, but I'd like to ensure it doesn't happen
in this new specs project).
--
Yoav Shapira
System Design and Management Fellow
MIT Sloan School of Management
Cambridge, MA, USA
yoavs@computer.org / www.yoavshapira.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 12/27/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>> Seems like an oxymoron, community should be active, but the code may
>> not, no? How can this be?
>
> Two ways:
>
> 1) The conversation that Brett mentions. General pan-apache Java
> things. I'm a little worried about any authorization issues where only
> an EG is able to commit. If they get quiet, the community would be
> unable to make changes.
I'm missing something fundamental. What would a JSR Expert Group
have to do with this? We are talking about the API jars for
completed JSRs, right, and maybe other specs if there are any that
require similar machinations? (I can't think of any...)
>
> I agree with Brett on the worry about 'how do I do servlets'
> questions. My recommendation would be to avoid a specs-users list
> until there are people asking relevant questions. Just make a
> specs-dev list to start with.
This is why I think of it as a depot - it's really about a single
storage place than a community project. The problem we're trying to
solve (at least the motivation in Geronimo) is not how to get more
people working on the specs, because the projects that need them
already have a core interested group working - those spec jars are
just a secondary requirement of their real charter, which would be
doing a flesh-and-blood implementation of the spec in question.
The problem we were trying to solve was avoiding *collisions* -
Geronimo had JAXR, Scout had JAXR. Geronimo had servlets, Tomcat had
servlets. Etc. It could be an unholy nightmare when you crossed the
beams, especially for things like JAXR that have factory methods, and
it wasn't clear which factory was getting called....
So I wouldn't imagine there would be much mail traffic at all. Maybe
I'm wrong and there is some latent interest in participating in rote
implementation from JavaDoc, but I can't see it myself.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/27/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> Seems like an oxymoron, community should be active, but the code may
> not, no? How can this be?
Two ways:
1) The conversation that Brett mentions. General pan-apache Java
things. I'm a little worried about any authorization issues where only
an EG is able to commit. If they get quiet, the community would be
unable to make changes.
I agree with Brett on the worry about 'how do I do servlets'
questions. My recommendation would be to avoid a specs-users list
until there are people asking relevant questions. Just make a
specs-dev list to start with.
2) The commons community to the side provides a paralleling structure,
with hopefully much of the same people in both; people who do
pan-apache Java things.
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Seems like an oxymoron, community should be active, but the code may
not, no? How can this be?
Regards,
Alan
On 12/27/2005 4:04 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>I'm no sure I agree. I think the community should be active, but the
>code may not be. Perhaps too optimistic :)
>
>- Brett
>
>On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I would think that given its very nature, specs, the community would not
>>be very active at all.
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
I'm no sure I agree. I think the community should be active, but the
code may not be. Perhaps too optimistic :)
- Brett
On 12/28/05, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> I would think that given its very nature, specs, the community would not
> be very active at all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/27/2005 3:50 PM, Brett Porter wrote:
>On 12/28/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, I've forwarded this to general@jakarta as well so I can get
>>feedback from both sides. The above meant 'the commons community way'
>>rather than the exact people. ie) I'm expecting the original coders
>>to, in most cases, still be maintaining and working on the code.
>>
>>
>
>...
>
>
>
>>ie) Keep them as a part of Jakarta Commons [the community development
>>at Jakarta] or make a third component in Jakarta [along with Jakarta
>>General, the conversation place] called Jakarta Specs.
>>
>>
>
>+1 to a separate specs project at Jakarta that is its own area, but
>follows the same practices of commons (and if possible, shares the
>same committers set). I'd be happy to see this happen.
>
>I'm not overly concerned about developing non-Java specs in the same
>space. I don't see that there is a lot that those communities would
>have in common with other specs communities (other than practices
>which we could share). The only example I can think of currently is
>stdcxx and that is certainly large enough for its own tlp.
>
>
>
>>Or general@jakarta if the Incubator wants to hear about it later
>>rather than sooner ;)
>>
>>
>
>Actually, I don't know why the incubator is involved at all. We're not
>talking about starting anything new - code is moving from other places
>(most of which has already had releases) and should be bringing people
>with it.
>
>Is there a concern that a community won't be formed? If that happened,
>the code would still have to go back to the original projects anyway
>as they need it. I think te worst case is that it becomes a set of
>specs with no other interaction with parts of Jakarta - which is
>exactly what we have now. I think the Jakarta PMC is equipped to deal
>with it on its own.
>
>
I would think that given its very nature, specs, the community would not
be very active at all.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
On 12/28/05, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I've forwarded this to general@jakarta as well so I can get
> feedback from both sides. The above meant 'the commons community way'
> rather than the exact people. ie) I'm expecting the original coders
> to, in most cases, still be maintaining and working on the code.
...
> ie) Keep them as a part of Jakarta Commons [the community development
> at Jakarta] or make a third component in Jakarta [along with Jakarta
> General, the conversation place] called Jakarta Specs.
+1 to a separate specs project at Jakarta that is its own area, but
follows the same practices of commons (and if possible, shares the
same committers set). I'd be happy to see this happen.
I'm not overly concerned about developing non-Java specs in the same
space. I don't see that there is a lot that those communities would
have in common with other specs communities (other than practices
which we could share). The only example I can think of currently is
stdcxx and that is certainly large enough for its own tlp.
> Or general@jakarta if the Incubator wants to hear about it later
> rather than sooner ;)
Actually, I don't know why the incubator is involved at all. We're not
talking about starting anything new - code is moving from other places
(most of which has already had releases) and should be bringing people
with it.
Is there a concern that a community won't be formed? If that happened,
the code would still have to go back to the original projects anyway
as they need it. I think te worst case is that it becomes a set of
specs with no other interaction with parts of Jakarta - which is
exactly what we have now. I think the Jakarta PMC is equipped to deal
with it on its own.
Cheers,
Brett
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/27/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> > My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or
> > flatten them into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella
> > Jakarta (I know, you didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime).
> > This new Jakarta would have the potential to serve two roles:
> >
> > 1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
> > 2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
> >
> > Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think;
> > it would help bring people to Jakarta to share code and
> > conversation, and the Commons community would make good stewards
> > for the code if the various owners departed.
>
> I'm not sure if I buy that last one - do you really think that the
> commons people are willing to do that? why?
Yeah, I've forwarded this to general@jakarta as well so I can get
feedback from both sides. The above meant 'the commons community way'
rather than the exact people. ie) I'm expecting the original coders
to, in most cases, still be maintaining and working on the code.
Yoav pointed out that one problem with this is that some of these
things have Expert Group authorization issues. Unsure if we would try
to get rid of those or just maintain them.
ie) Keep them as a part of Jakarta Commons [the community development
at Jakarta] or make a third component in Jakarta [along with Jakarta
General, the conversation place] called Jakarta Specs.
> The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
> causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
> J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
> in web-services land.
>
> The point was to get people to stop maintaining it within their
> project boundaries and do it in common - I don't think that people
> would "move on" as it's key to what's happening w/in each TLP. I.e.
> WS needs JAXR for Scout (and so does Geronimo). Tomcat needs servlet
> for tomcat (and so does Geronimo). Portals needs JSR168 for
> portlets, etc...
>
> IOW, there are people already working on this stuff. This was the
> same motivating factor for Jakarta Commons when we started it - have
> subprojects (w/in Jakarta) bring forth things that they will share
> but will continue to work on as they are fundamental to the
> subproject. IOW, the contributing [sub]project had a very compelling
> interest to keep going w/ the software.
+1, sorry for the poor original choice of words.
> > Some other pluses are that it would help be a part of an attempt to
> > rejuvenate Jakarta in 2006 (as a kind of federation) and that non-
> > JCP specs could be stored there too.
> >
> > Not trying to intrude on the JCP stuff though, so I can see if it's
> > preferred to keep things under a strictly JCP-oriented environment.
>
> I don't think that it should be considered JCP specific - IOW,
> there's no reason to keep cc-ing jcp-open, but rather
> general@incubator is a fine a spot as any.
Or general@jakarta if the Incubator wants to hear about it later
rather than sooner ;)
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> One idea was to collate them as a part of Jakarta.
I'd never heard that one ;)
>
> My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or
> flatten them into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella
> Jakarta (I know, you didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime).
> This new Jakarta would have the potential to serve two roles:
>
> 1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
> 2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
>
> Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think;
> it would help bring people to Jakarta to share code and
> conversation, and the Commons community would make good stewards
> for the code if the various owners departed.
I'm not sure if I buy that last one - do you really think that the
commons people are willing to do that? why?
The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
in web-services land.
The point was to get people to stop maintaining it within their
project boundaries and do it in common - I don't think that people
would "move on" as it's key to what's happening w/in each TLP. I.e.
WS needs JAXR for Scout (and so does Geronimo). Tomcat needs servlet
for tomcat (and so does Geronimo). Portals needs JSR168 for
portlets, etc...
IOW, there are people already working on this stuff. This was the
same motivating factor for Jakarta Commons when we started it - have
subprojects (w/in Jakarta) bring forth things that they will share
but will continue to work on as they are fundamental to the
subproject. IOW, the contributing [sub]project had a very compelling
interest to keep going w/ the software.
>
> Some other pluses are that it would help be a part of an attempt to
> rejuvenate Jakarta in 2006 (as a kind of federation) and that non-
> JCP specs could be stored there too.
>
> Not trying to intrude on the JCP stuff though, so I can see if it's
> preferred to keep things under a strictly JCP-oriented environment.
I don't think that it should be considered JCP specific - IOW,
there's no reason to keep cc-ing jcp-open, but rather
general@incubator is a fine a spot as any.
geir
>
> Hen
>
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
>> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
>> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
>> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
>> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
>> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
>> enthusiasm.
>>
>> How do we get this started?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> One idea was to collate them as a part of Jakarta.
I'd never heard that one ;)
>
> My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or
> flatten them into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella
> Jakarta (I know, you didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime).
> This new Jakarta would have the potential to serve two roles:
>
> 1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
> 2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
>
> Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think;
> it would help bring people to Jakarta to share code and
> conversation, and the Commons community would make good stewards
> for the code if the various owners departed.
I'm not sure if I buy that last one - do you really think that the
commons people are willing to do that? why?
The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
in web-services land.
The point was to get people to stop maintaining it within their
project boundaries and do it in common - I don't think that people
would "move on" as it's key to what's happening w/in each TLP. I.e.
WS needs JAXR for Scout (and so does Geronimo). Tomcat needs servlet
for tomcat (and so does Geronimo). Portals needs JSR168 for
portlets, etc...
IOW, there are people already working on this stuff. This was the
same motivating factor for Jakarta Commons when we started it - have
subprojects (w/in Jakarta) bring forth things that they will share
but will continue to work on as they are fundamental to the
subproject. IOW, the contributing [sub]project had a very compelling
interest to keep going w/ the software.
>
> Some other pluses are that it would help be a part of an attempt to
> rejuvenate Jakarta in 2006 (as a kind of federation) and that non-
> JCP specs could be stored there too.
>
> Not trying to intrude on the JCP stuff though, so I can see if it's
> preferred to keep things under a strictly JCP-oriented environment.
I don't think that it should be considered JCP specific - IOW,
there's no reason to keep cc-ing jcp-open, but rather
general@incubator is a fine a spot as any.
geir
>
> Hen
>
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
>> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
>> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
>> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
>> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
>> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
>> enthusiasm.
>>
>> How do we get this started?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
One idea was to collate them as a part of Jakarta.
My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or flatten them
into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella Jakarta (I know, you
didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime). This new Jakarta would
have the potential to serve two roles:
1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think; it would
help bring people to Jakarta to share code and conversation, and the
Commons community would make good stewards for the code if the various
owners departed.
Some other pluses are that it would help be a part of an attempt to
rejuvenate Jakarta in 2006 (as a kind of federation) and that non-JCP
specs could be stored there too.
Not trying to intrude on the JCP stuff though, so I can see if it's
preferred to keep things under a strictly JCP-oriented environment.
Hen
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project which would
> hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as other standards,
> e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate "copies" of the source code for
> the same JSR floating around in different Apache projects. It would be a
> great idea to move them all into one project. This idea, so far, has been
> met with much enthusiasm.
>
> How do we get this started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
One idea was to collate them as a part of Jakarta.
My aim for Jakarta is to either promote subprojects to TLP or flatten them
into Jakarta Commons, leading to a non-umbrella Jakarta (I know, you
didn't think you'd see it in your lifetime). This new Jakarta would
have the potential to serve two roles:
1) Place for Java@Apache to share conversation [general@jakarta]
2) Place for Java@Apache to share code [Jakarta Commons]
Storing the spec source there would be good for everyone I think; it would
help bring people to Jakarta to share code and conversation, and the
Commons community would make good stewards for the code if the various
owners departed.
Some other pluses are that it would help be a part of an attempt to
rejuvenate Jakarta in 2006 (as a kind of federation) and that non-JCP
specs could be stored there too.
Not trying to intrude on the JCP stuff though, so I can see if it's
preferred to keep things under a strictly JCP-oriented environment.
Hen
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project which would
> hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as other standards,
> e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate "copies" of the source code for
> the same JSR floating around in different Apache projects. It would be a
> great idea to move them all into one project. This idea, so far, has been
> met with much enthusiasm.
>
> How do we get this started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project which
> would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as other
> standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate "copies" of the
> source code for the same JSR floating around in different Apache
> projects. It would be a great idea to move them all into one project.
> This idea, so far, has been met with much enthusiasm.
Quite coincidentally, we've voted just two weeks ago for moving the JAXB
(JSR-31) specification to Geronimo, because we felt it made more sense
to collect such specifications at a central place. See
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=113465092000002&r=1&w=2
Jochen
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There's an interesting idea. So there is a shared repo destination that
> all the respective projects public spec jars into? I would imagine that
> we would need some convention published in each project so that the spec
> jars can easily be found.
I do not agree that gathering the jar files is sufficient. How about
sources? Version control? An umbrella project seems a much better idea
to me.
Jochen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/30/2005 1:27 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote:
>On 12/30/05, Alan D. Cabrera <ad...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Looks good to me.
>>
>>Guys, should we not begin to create a specs project in Jakarta? It
>>seems that we have a consensus.
>>
>>
>
>
>Well, maybe ... I have a couple of concerns about the practicalities here.
>
>First, at least for the set of standards that are JCP related (non-JCP
>standards will likely have a similar set of issues, however), let's divide
>the world of specs we might be interested in having API classes around for
>into two groups
>
>(a) JSRs that Apache also hosts implementations for (MyFaces, Tomcat,
>Geronimo, Pluto, a bunch of the
> web service ones, etc.)
>
>(b) JSRs that Apache does not host implementations for, but where projects
>might
> want to rely on implementations acquired elsewhere.
>
>For group (a), the current practice is to host the API classes inside the
>project that is also providing the implementation. That makes sense to me
>for a number of reasons, but the most important ones revolve around ensuring
>that the produced classes comply with the corresponding TCK tests to ensure
>spec complance. The people most familiar with the requirements, and the
>most motivated to watch for potential compliance-breaking changes, will be
>the folks doing the corresponding implementation. Even in the current
>situation, it's really easy for a committer to try to tweak API classes in a
>manner that will not be compatible ... but these cases get caught quickly,
>because the "in the know" developers are going to be watching.
>
>Note that if a primary goal of this effort is to have a common repository of
>API jars (and that's certainly a worthy goal), it doesn't require a separate
>project to accomplish that -- simply a mechanism for cooperation on what
>repository to post API jars into. (However, even there, we'd need to check
>licensing in each case whether the API jar can be published separately.)
>
>For group (b), the latter consideration will also apply -- the API classes
>for a JSR are licensed as described in each individual JSR.
>
>If a primary goal of this effort is to encourage the development of a
>community interested in the general issues of implementing Java based
>standards (also a worthy goal), that's great ... but it does not seem to me
>that sharing API code is a prerequisite for accomplishing this.
>
>
There's an interesting idea. So there is a shared repo destination that
all the respective projects public spec jars into? I would imagine that
we would need some convention published in each project so that the spec
jars can easily be found.
Can you elaborate on your statement "we'd need to check licensing in
each case whether the API jar can be published separately" since I am
unaware of any such restrictions?
Regards,
Alan
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> Note that if a primary goal of this effort is to have a common repository of
> API jars (and that's certainly a worthy goal), it doesn't require a separate
> project to accomplish that -- simply a mechanism for cooperation on what
> repository to post API jars into. (However, even there, we'd need to check
> licensing in each case whether the API jar can be published separately.)
This is an interesting question (the licensing one...) but only of issue
if you were going to make a general offering of the jars as a separate
thing. What we're trying to avoid is for those projects that are doing
compatible implementations, when people combine code from other
projects, there are collisions.
One solution is to just have a community custom that only if you
implement the spec do you create API jars. However, this breaks when
you consider that some projects - like Geronimo - offer two alternatives
to the same thing - like Tomcat and jetty.
>
> For group (b), the latter consideration will also apply -- the API classes
> for a JSR are licensed as described in each individual JSR.
I do wonder about this. I'd be interested in figuring out what aspects
of copyright law apply to someone going here :
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/api/index.html
and doing an independent work creating interfaces and classes. I didn't
see any licenses so I assume that there must be a well-understood set of
regulations that apply.
>
> If a primary goal of this effort is to encourage the development of a
> community interested in the general issues of implementing Java based
> standards (also a worthy goal), that's great ... but it does not seem to me
> that sharing API code is a prerequisite for accomplishing this.
The primary goal was simply to get rid of collisions. We only need one
set of these things for all projects....
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Thomas Dudziak <to...@gmail.com>.
On 12/31/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>
> > If you, as a user, are looking for a replacement of Sun's
> > jar files, you wouldn't look for JaxMe. But you'd
> > probably look for a central location of SPEC jar files.
>
> Why would I want to replace Sun's jar files? Only because I want an
> implementation, and that's where I'd go. To the implementation.
Or because of the license that is attached to the JAR (as opposed to
the apis). E.g. AFAIK some j2ee jars were only available as part of
the RI (or another impl) which was of an incompatible license.
Nowadays we can incorporate Geronimo's JARs for compiling.
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> If you, as a user, are looking for a replacement of Sun's
> jar files, you wouldn't look for JaxMe. But you'd
> probably look for a central location of SPEC jar files.
Why would I want to replace Sun's jar files? Only because I want an
implementation, and that's where I'd go. To the implementation.
> Currently, a number of projects are depending on JaxMe in Gump.
> In fact, none or only a small number depend on the
> implementation: They are actually depending on the API jar file.
So they aren't actually using JaxMe, just compiling against the spec? Or
they ARE using it, but Gump only tests as far as a compile?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> (b) JSRs that Apache does not host implementations for, but where projects
> might
> want to rely on implementations acquired elsewhere.
>
> For group (a), the current practice is to host the API classes inside the
> project that is also providing the implementation. That makes sense to me
> for a number of reasons,
Let me reply from the view of the JaxMe project, which has recently
voted for moving the public API to Geronimo. Of course, we see the
advantage of hosting both API and implementation. However, they
typically apply only, if the API is changing. Fact is, the project is
typically divided into two parts with very difficult characteristics:
The API is rarely (if ever) changing, the implementation is changing
quite frequently.
On the other hands, we see the following advantage of a centralized
location:
- Visibility: If you, as a user, are looking for a replacement of Sun's
jar files, you wouldn't look for JaxMe. But you'd probably look for
a central location of SPEC jar files.
- Continuous Integration: Currently, a number of projects are depending
on JaxMe in Gump. In fact, none or only a small number depend on the
implementation: They are actually depending on the API jar file.
Having the API as a separate project reduces the dependency tree. But
if the API already is a separate project, we are already loosing the
advantages of a combined project.
- Project size: Having a smaller project pays. Build time is faster,
build scripts become smaller, ...
Jochen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 12/30/05, Alan D. Cabrera <ad...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Looks good to me.
>
> Guys, should we not begin to create a specs project in Jakarta? It
> seems that we have a consensus.
Well, maybe ... I have a couple of concerns about the practicalities here.
First, at least for the set of standards that are JCP related (non-JCP
standards will likely have a similar set of issues, however), let's divide
the world of specs we might be interested in having API classes around for
into two groups
(a) JSRs that Apache also hosts implementations for (MyFaces, Tomcat,
Geronimo, Pluto, a bunch of the
web service ones, etc.)
(b) JSRs that Apache does not host implementations for, but where projects
might
want to rely on implementations acquired elsewhere.
For group (a), the current practice is to host the API classes inside the
project that is also providing the implementation. That makes sense to me
for a number of reasons, but the most important ones revolve around ensuring
that the produced classes comply with the corresponding TCK tests to ensure
spec complance. The people most familiar with the requirements, and the
most motivated to watch for potential compliance-breaking changes, will be
the folks doing the corresponding implementation. Even in the current
situation, it's really easy for a committer to try to tweak API classes in a
manner that will not be compatible ... but these cases get caught quickly,
because the "in the know" developers are going to be watching.
Note that if a primary goal of this effort is to have a common repository of
API jars (and that's certainly a worthy goal), it doesn't require a separate
project to accomplish that -- simply a mechanism for cooperation on what
repository to post API jars into. (However, even there, we'd need to check
licensing in each case whether the API jar can be published separately.)
For group (b), the latter consideration will also apply -- the API classes
for a JSR are licensed as described in each individual JSR.
If a primary goal of this effort is to encourage the development of a
community interested in the general issues of implementing Java based
standards (also a worthy goal), that's great ... but it does not seem to me
that sharing API code is a prerequisite for accomplishing this.
Craig
What are the next steps?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On 12/30/2005 6:14 AM, James Carman wrote:
>
> >Why not do like we do with the commons?
> >
> >spec-javamail
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Henri Yandell [mailto:flamefew@gmail.com]
> >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:08 AM
> >To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >Cc: jcp-open@apache.org
> >Subject: Re: Starting a java specs project
> >
> >On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
> >>the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
> >>"geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
> >>I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
> >>think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
> >>area for cross project involvement.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
> >
> >Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
> >would be fine?
> >
> >Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
> >
> >Hen
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <ad...@apache.org>.
Looks good to me.
Guys, should we not begin to create a specs project in Jakarta? It
seems that we have a consensus. What are the next steps?
Regards,
Alan
On 12/30/2005 6:14 AM, James Carman wrote:
>Why not do like we do with the commons?
>
>spec-javamail
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Henri Yandell [mailto:flamefew@gmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:08 AM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Cc: jcp-open@apache.org
>Subject: Re: Starting a java specs project
>
>On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
>>the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
>>"geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
>>I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
>>think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
>>area for cross project involvement.
>>
>>
>
>[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
>
>Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
>would be fine?
>
>Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
>
>Hen
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
>
RE: Starting a java specs project
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Why not do like we do with the commons?
spec-javamail
-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:flamefew@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:08 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: jcp-open@apache.org
Subject: Re: Starting a java specs project
On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
> the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
> "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
> I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
> think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
> area for cross project involvement.
[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
would be fine?
Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 30, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Phil Steitz wrote:
> I am going to ask this stupid question here, since at least it is
> relevant to this list. Why aren't the "spec jars" part of the spec?
> In other words, why doesn't the JSR EG just produce a full API spec,
> with interfaces encapsulated and expressed in the spec? Then everyone
> - inside and outside of apache - could just download the "spec jar"
> with the spec. I must be missing something basic here.
They do. They are usually under an unacceptable license from Sun.
Until recently, it had restrictions of fields of use, didn't allow
redistribution, and required indemnification of Sun.
And that's all I can recall off the top of my head. I worked on that
one for *years* with them. Some progress, but not enough, IMO.
geir
>
> Phil
>
> On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, accidentally kept the old cc to jcp-open. Ignore at will,
>> the real
>> thread is at general@incubator.
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>> Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
>>> would be fine?
>>>
>>> Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
>>>
>>> Hen
>>>
>>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
I am going to ask this stupid question here, since at least it is
relevant to this list. Why aren't the "spec jars" part of the spec?
In other words, why doesn't the JSR EG just produce a full API spec,
with interfaces encapsulated and expressed in the spec? Then everyone
- inside and outside of apache - could just download the "spec jar"
with the spec. I must be missing something basic here.
Phil
On 12/30/05, Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, accidentally kept the old cc to jcp-open. Ignore at will, the real
> thread is at general@incubator.
>
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> > Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
> > would be fine?
> >
> > Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
> >
> > Hen
> >
>
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
Sorry, accidentally kept the old cc to jcp-open. Ignore at will, the real
thread is at general@incubator.
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Henri Yandell wrote:
> Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
> would be fine?
>
> Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
>
> Hen
>
RE: Starting a java specs project
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
Why not do like we do with the commons?
spec-javamail
-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:flamefew@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:08 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: jcp-open@apache.org
Subject: Re: Starting a java specs project
On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
> the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
> "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
> I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
> think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
> area for cross project involvement.
[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
would be fine?
Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
> the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
> "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
> I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
> think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
> area for cross project involvement.
[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
would be fine?
Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/27/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dropped jcp-open cross-post.
>
> On Dec 27, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Hiram Chirino wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed
> > at the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache
> > have "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec
> > jars that I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In
> > general, I think that this would make a good TLP since it would
> > provide a good area for cross project involvement.
> >
>
> I agree - I think also that it would be as good a TLP as any. Very
> specific charter, very clear goal. That said, Henri had some things
> to offer w/ Jakarta.
And this has a lot to offer the idea of Jakarta as a federation. The
biggest negatives are:
1) It's definitely an aim to have a common Java federation at Apache;
so it'll be odd to try and bring non-Java spec implementations in.
2) These ideas are in some part quite new for the Jakarta community(s)
and some part completely new. So I've a bit of explaining to do over
there :)
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
Dropped jcp-open cross-post.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Hiram Chirino wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed
> at the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache
> have "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec
> jars that I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In
> general, I think that this would make a good TLP since it would
> provide a good area for cross project involvement.
>
I agree - I think also that it would be as good a TLP as any. Very
specific charter, very clear goal. That said, Henri had some things
to offer w/ Jakarta.
What we could do is do it in the incubator for now, get it going, and
then make that decision later depending on how we all feel...
geir
> Regards,
> Hiram
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
>> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
>> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
>> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
>> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
>> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
>> enthusiasm.
>>
>> How do we get this started?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>
>>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/27/05, Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
> the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
> "geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
> I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
> think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
> area for cross project involvement.
[presuming it was stored at Jakarta Specs]
Do you think they should be apache-xxxx or jakarta-xxxx, or either
would be fine?
Would 'jakarta-spec-javamail' be too much of a mouthful?
Hen
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com>.
Hi,
I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
"geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
area for cross project involvement.
Regards,
Hiram
On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
> enthusiasm.
>
> How do we get this started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Hiram Chirino <hi...@hiramchirino.com>.
Hi,
I think this would be great! I know it's silly, but I get annoyed at
the fact that many of the J2EE spec jars that I use from apache have
"geronimo-" in the jar name but It's just the ASL 2.0 spec jars that
I'm using and not really a geronimo implementation. In general, I
think that this would make a good TLP since it would provide a good
area for cross project involvement.
Regards,
Hiram
On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
> enthusiasm.
>
> How do we get this started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project which
> would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as other
> standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate "copies" of the
> source code for the same JSR floating around in different Apache
> projects. It would be a great idea to move them all into one project.
> This idea, so far, has been met with much enthusiasm.
Quite coincidentally, we've voted just two weeks ago for moving the JAXB
(JSR-31) specification to Geronimo, because we felt it made more sense
to collect such specifications at a central place. See
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=113465092000002&r=1&w=2
Jochen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
I was going to respond last night, but I'd been incubatored-out.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
>
>>this is just for sources of javax.* NOT implementations. One location
>>for a servlet-api.jar, jaxrpc.jar, saaj.jar, xml-apis.jar.
>
>
> Geir wrote:
>
>
>>No - the spec jars for those things. Not the implementations.
>
>
> Ah. And JavaMail? There is only one functional JavaMail out there, and it
> comes from Sun.
JavaMail appears to the exception to the "Java is a spec-driven
ecosystem" rule. :) I think that it's a corner case due to the history
of it - it was before the modern JCP era, and my understanding is that
it was originally done for client side when everyone [at Sun] thought
that everything would be java everywhere.
Maybe Classpathx's can be considered functional. So we're
> talking just about interfaces, and dummy stubs of classes without any real
> functionality?
Yes - that's what has been driving my thinking, but the more I think
about it, the more I need to go back and figure out what %-age of specs
this is relevant - those that are "mostly" interface.
>
> What's the point? To show that you can compile and link against the spec?
That actually is near to what is valuable for people, yes. Writing code
that works w/ API $foo needs the jar to compile against.
> And, as Craig noted: "There is often what you might call "implementation" in
> the javax.<spec> domain."
Yes, sadly. That's the problem. We'd have to decide how much for a
given JSR before it doesn't make sense.
>
> And how does this square with Geir's comment:
>
>
>>What we're trying to avoid is for those projects that are doing
>>compatible implementations, when people combine code from other
>>projects, there are collisions.
>
>
> Why would there be collisions if we are talking about a spec jar, except
> when the spec jars are also the implementation?
Yes, that's the problem. I've repeated my JAXR story enough not to have
to repeat it here, but I'm sure it happens more than we ever see.
>
> I find that I am more in agreement with Craig and ... well ... Craig ...
> hmmm ... odd coincidence. And both work for Sun. Odder still. In any
> event, the idea of an map to where the JSRs are hosted makes sense, but an
> uber-umbrella isn't making sense to me, so far.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 1/2/2006 10:20 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>>
>> There are plenty of non-JCP specs, e.g. CORBA.
>
>
> Do they have the same kind of "independent artifacts" like some of
> these JCP specs do? I've been thinking about this too - what other
> specs have a similar kind of mechanism?
CORBA has sets of specs that create independent artifacts like JCP.
There are others, e.g. OSGi.
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> There are plenty of non-JCP specs, e.g. CORBA.
Do they have the same kind of "independent artifacts" like some of these
JCP specs do? I've been thinking about this too - what other specs have
a similar kind of mechanism?
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 1/1/2006 5:23 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>On 12/31/05, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I haven't been involved in any history here, so please forgive my naivete.
>>
>>I think I understand the rationale for developing spec jars here at Apache.
>>Please correct me if I'm wrong. In order to use a spec jar from the JCP, you
>>have to click a license every time you download it. And this can be a real
>>usability problem if every user of a project needs to manually download just
>>to click a license that they don't read anyway (oops, gotta stop that).
>>
>>
>
>Yep. Some are a real pain to find too; jdbc-stdext-2.0.jar springs to mind :)
>
>
>
>>I doubt that there is enough in common among the spec jar developers to
>>build a community around "spec jars". But certainly there is a community
>>among the developers of Servlet and a different community among the
>>developers of JDO and a different community for MyFaces, etc.
>>
>>
>
>You need community for two parts:
>
>1) Someone has to work on said website.
>2) There needs to be a place for people to talk about said specs; not
>in terms of development, but in terms of "is anyone working on a Foo
>spec yet?", "here's a patch for the website" and "what's the best way
>for us to handle the naming scheme?".
>
>The apache-jcp website is well on the way to this [http://www.apache.org/jcp/].
>
>In addition to a simple site, browseable spec javadoc and download
>links(ibiblio?) would be nicer than having to dig into the particular
>TLP that happened to develop the code.
>
>----
>
>Then we get onto the details:
>
>* Should the source be in a shared location, or in the original TLP.
>* Do we put it under JCP [ie: www.apache.org/jcp and jcp-open@] or
>Jakarta [ie: jakarta.apache.org/specs and specs@]. I'm +1 to either.
>
>[sales pitch :)]
>Really the second question is less about specs and more about
>whether/how we want a Java Federation at Apache. JCP is effectively
>the 'Java Community Process Federation at Apache', so it's natural
>that we'll have overlap issues between the two.
>
>
There are plenty of non-JCP specs, e.g. CORBA. I think that this should
go into Jakarta.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 12/31/05, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
>>I haven't been involved in any history here, so please forgive my naivete.
>>
>>I think I understand the rationale for developing spec jars here at Apache.
>>Please correct me if I'm wrong. In order to use a spec jar from the JCP, you
>>have to click a license every time you download it. And this can be a real
>>usability problem if every user of a project needs to manually download just
>>to click a license that they don't read anyway (oops, gotta stop that).
>
>
> Yep. Some are a real pain to find too; jdbc-stdext-2.0.jar springs to mind :)
>
>
>>I doubt that there is enough in common among the spec jar developers to
>>build a community around "spec jars". But certainly there is a community
>>among the developers of Servlet and a different community among the
>>developers of JDO and a different community for MyFaces, etc.
>
>
> You need community for two parts:
>
> 1) Someone has to work on said website.
> 2) There needs to be a place for people to talk about said specs; not
> in terms of development, but in terms of "is anyone working on a Foo
> spec yet?", "here's a patch for the website" and "what's the best way
> for us to handle the naming scheme?".
>
> The apache-jcp website is well on the way to this [http://www.apache.org/jcp/].
>
> In addition to a simple site, browseable spec javadoc and download
> links(ibiblio?) would be nicer than having to dig into the particular
> TLP that happened to develop the code.
>
> ----
>
> Then we get onto the details:
>
> * Should the source be in a shared location, or in the original TLP.
> * Do we put it under JCP [ie: www.apache.org/jcp and jcp-open@] or
> Jakarta [ie: jakarta.apache.org/specs and specs@]. I'm +1 to either.
I don't think /jcp is the right place. /jcp is about policy, activism
and support for the JCP-related efforts of the ASF, of which the
technical ones are in the projects themselves.
>
> [sales pitch :)]
> Really the second question is less about specs and more about
> whether/how we want a Java Federation at Apache. JCP is effectively
> the 'Java Community Process Federation at Apache', so it's natural
> that we'll have overlap issues between the two.
>
> This very conversation is an example of why I think we need a Java
> federation; we're using general@incubator to discuss the Apache Java
> strategy because there's nowhere else more fitting.
> [/sales pitch]
The problem is that I don't think you can force it like that. That's my
worry. I don't think this is "The Apache Java Strategy" as much as a
sharing problem some Java projects have. I suspect most of the problem
could be solved with a naming convention for jars, social awareness
about the problem to get people to work together, and making sure
they get pushed to ibiblio since many people use Maven to build.
>
> I'm rambling a bit; hopped up on flu medication at the moment :)
I think we need to step back and carefully reconsider exactly what
problem we're trying to solve.
Originally, we in Geronimo-land thought that it would be nice to push
our spec jars out to a common place so others can share, and we can get
others to push their's out too. We had opportunity for inter-project
collaboration (like between Geroninmo and Scout on JAXR spec jars) and
we also hoped for collaboration between ASF projects and external
projects (like Apache Tomcat and Jetty for Servlet spec jars).
This discussion has been a useful exercise. There are a bunch of
isssues that came up including legal/licensing, location and most
importantly, technical reality - what %-age of specs really have clean
interface or abstract class APIs with minimal implementation in API
classes? JavaMail is clearly the problem child here, but I'm sure there
are more than we think....
So I'm still pro giving it a whirl, but a little more on the fence...
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/31/05, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> I haven't been involved in any history here, so please forgive my naivete.
>
> I think I understand the rationale for developing spec jars here at Apache.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. In order to use a spec jar from the JCP, you
> have to click a license every time you download it. And this can be a real
> usability problem if every user of a project needs to manually download just
> to click a license that they don't read anyway (oops, gotta stop that).
Yep. Some are a real pain to find too; jdbc-stdext-2.0.jar springs to mind :)
> I doubt that there is enough in common among the spec jar developers to
> build a community around "spec jars". But certainly there is a community
> among the developers of Servlet and a different community among the
> developers of JDO and a different community for MyFaces, etc.
You need community for two parts:
1) Someone has to work on said website.
2) There needs to be a place for people to talk about said specs; not
in terms of development, but in terms of "is anyone working on a Foo
spec yet?", "here's a patch for the website" and "what's the best way
for us to handle the naming scheme?".
The apache-jcp website is well on the way to this [http://www.apache.org/jcp/].
In addition to a simple site, browseable spec javadoc and download
links(ibiblio?) would be nicer than having to dig into the particular
TLP that happened to develop the code.
----
Then we get onto the details:
* Should the source be in a shared location, or in the original TLP.
* Do we put it under JCP [ie: www.apache.org/jcp and jcp-open@] or
Jakarta [ie: jakarta.apache.org/specs and specs@]. I'm +1 to either.
[sales pitch :)]
Really the second question is less about specs and more about
whether/how we want a Java Federation at Apache. JCP is effectively
the 'Java Community Process Federation at Apache', so it's natural
that we'll have overlap issues between the two.
This very conversation is an example of why I think we need a Java
federation; we're using general@incubator to discuss the Apache Java
strategy because there's nowhere else more fitting.
[/sales pitch]
I'm rambling a bit; hopped up on flu medication at the moment :)
Hen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>> Craig, you hit the nail on the head with this. I am running into
>>> this now. The impetus for my attempting to start this is that I
>>> currently have to go on an easter egg hunt for spec jars. I have no
>>> strong feelings how the jars get into a central place for me to find
>>> them so long as they are in a central place. That central place
>>> cannot be the JCP web site.
>>
>>
>> Why the heck would it be the JCP web site?
>
>
> 'cause that's where you can always find the spec jars; no matter how
> hard it is to download them, it's really easy to find them.
And the license just doesn't work.
>
> As opposed to Apache, where it's really easy to download/use them but
> pretty tough to find them.
Oh. I thought that Alan was talking about something else.
Got it. Never mind. Hey look! Over there! A bird!
geir
>
> Craig
>
>>
>> geir
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>
>
> Craig Russell
>
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
>
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Jan 1, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> Craig, you hit the nail on the head with this. I am running into
>> this now. The impetus for my attempting to start this is that I
>> currently have to go on an easter egg hunt for spec jars. I have
>> no strong feelings how the jars get into a central place for me to
>> find them so long as they are in a central place. That central
>> place cannot be the JCP web site.
>
> Why the heck would it be the JCP web site?
'cause that's where you can always find the spec jars; no matter how
hard it is to download them, it's really easy to find them.
As opposed to Apache, where it's really easy to download/use them but
pretty tough to find them.
Craig
>
> geir
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> Craig, you hit the nail on the head with this. I am running into this
> now. The impetus for my attempting to start this is that I currently
> have to go on an easter egg hunt for spec jars. I have no strong
> feelings how the jars get into a central place for me to find them so
> long as they are in a central place. That central place cannot be the
> JCP web site.
>
Why the heck would it be the JCP web site?
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/31/2005 1:12 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> I haven't been involved in any history here, so please forgive my
> naivete.
>
> I think I understand the rationale for developing spec jars here at
> Apache. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In order to use a spec jar
> from the JCP, you have to click a license every time you download it.
> And this can be a real usability problem if every user of a project
> needs to manually download just to click a license that they don't
> read anyway (oops, gotta stop that).
>
> It seems like a real waste of energy to have more than one spec jar in
> Apache per spec. Bygones. Whether this was accidental or intentional,
> it seems that we mostly need to agree on where the jars live and make
> sure that everyone knows where that is.
>
> So if I'm interested in using the Servlet 2.3 jar, which project does
> this live in, and who manages it? I'd think that a well-known
> directory might be just the thing. Perhaps a TLP responsible to track
> where the JCP spec jars are being developed? [It might be that Jakarta
> is the right TLP.] And a pointer to the repository where the spec jars
> can be downloaded (automatically, maven-style). And some common naming
> scheme that everyone agrees on.
>
> I doubt that there is enough in common among the spec jar developers
> to build a community around "spec jars". But certainly there is a
> community among the developers of Servlet and a different community
> among the developers of JDO and a different community for MyFaces, etc.
>
> So it sounds straightforward to me to establish a TLP to house a
> "directory" of the spec jars and which projects they belong to and
> where the binaries reside.
Craig, you hit the nail on the head with this. I am running into this
now. The impetus for my attempting to start this is that I currently
have to go on an easter egg hunt for spec jars. I have no strong
feelings how the jars get into a central place for me to find them so
long as they are in a central place. That central place cannot be the
JCP web site.
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I haven't been involved in any history here, so please forgive my
naivete.
I think I understand the rationale for developing spec jars here at
Apache. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In order to use a spec jar
from the JCP, you have to click a license every time you download it.
And this can be a real usability problem if every user of a project
needs to manually download just to click a license that they don't
read anyway (oops, gotta stop that).
It seems like a real waste of energy to have more than one spec jar
in Apache per spec. Bygones. Whether this was accidental or
intentional, it seems that we mostly need to agree on where the jars
live and make sure that everyone knows where that is.
So if I'm interested in using the Servlet 2.3 jar, which project does
this live in, and who manages it? I'd think that a well-known
directory might be just the thing. Perhaps a TLP responsible to track
where the JCP spec jars are being developed? [It might be that
Jakarta is the right TLP.] And a pointer to the repository where the
spec jars can be downloaded (automatically, maven-style). And some
common naming scheme that everyone agrees on.
I doubt that there is enough in common among the spec jar developers
to build a community around "spec jars". But certainly there is a
community among the developers of Servlet and a different community
among the developers of JDO and a different community for MyFaces, etc.
So it sounds straightforward to me to establish a TLP to house a
"directory" of the spec jars and which projects they belong to and
where the binaries reside.
Craig
On Dec 31, 2005, at 4:41 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>> On Saturday 31 December 2005 07:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> In any
>>> event, <...> an
>>> uber-umbrella isn't making sense to me, so far.
>> +1
>> Don't force things in place. To me, the most logical step forward
>> is that most "uninteresting, boring, stenography" of specs sits in
>> Geronimo, mainly because they were 'fed up' of the re-distro
>> constraints imposed in the licensing. So, if there are duplication
>> between Geronimo and let's say WS, why doesn't G and WS work out
>> on which side of the fence the 'copy' sits. And since so much
>> already sits with Geronimo, it would make sense to grow there.
>
> We did this, actually, with Scout (JAXR), and it actually makes
> sense to use Scout's IMO because there is running code in the API
> (a factory) so it makes sense to be maintained by the implementor
> of the full spec.
>
> geir
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Saturday 31 December 2005 07:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>In any
>>event, <...> an
>>uber-umbrella isn't making sense to me, so far.
>
>
> +1
>
> Don't force things in place. To me, the most logical step forward is that most
> "uninteresting, boring, stenography" of specs sits in Geronimo, mainly
> because they were 'fed up' of the re-distro constraints imposed in the
> licensing.
> So, if there are duplication between Geronimo and let's say WS, why doesn't G
> and WS work out on which side of the fence the 'copy' sits. And since so much
> already sits with Geronimo, it would make sense to grow there.
We did this, actually, with Scout (JAXR), and it actually makes sense to
use Scout's IMO because there is running code in the API (a factory) so
it makes sense to be maintained by the implementor of the full spec.
geir
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 31 December 2005 07:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> In any
> event, <...> an
> uber-umbrella isn't making sense to me, so far.
+1
Don't force things in place. To me, the most logical step forward is that most
"uninteresting, boring, stenography" of specs sits in Geronimo, mainly
because they were 'fed up' of the re-distro constraints imposed in the
licensing.
So, if there are duplication between Geronimo and let's say WS, why doesn't G
and WS work out on which side of the fence the 'copy' sits. And since so much
already sits with Geronimo, it would make sense to grow there.
For other specs, let they be at their natural home. And now when Maven folks
are getting around to use group names matching the codebases, each spec
artifact would be published in a deterministic way, without needing to
consult any "matrix"...
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>What's the point? To show that you can compile and link against the spec?
>
>
Yes. And i do personally think this is a good practice to ensure
portability.
Maven 2 has scoped transitive dependencies : you can specify that your code
compiles against the spec, and test it against one or more
implementation you
want. But transitive dependencies have their drawbacks when badly used :
if you say your code is dependant on an implementation, it will
automatically
be dependant on the implementation dependencies.
Furthermore, only pointing to jar location is not sufficient : lots of
projects
have rewritten the javax.xml.QName class. Geronimo already has some specs
that ws projects also have. Beehive has somewhere a jsr181 spec, but
it's main purpose
is not to be a jsr181 implementation (btw, it has no sense), so that you
do not
think about looking at the Beehive project to find this spec jar. I was
in need of it
for ServiceMix and found it there by a pure hazard.
I do not see any reason why several projects on apache would have their
own implementation. Having a collection of
reference jars is much better, but this can only be done outside of
specific projects.
Guillaume Nodet
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> this is just for sources of javax.* NOT implementations. One location
> for a servlet-api.jar, jaxrpc.jar, saaj.jar, xml-apis.jar.
Geir wrote:
> No - the spec jars for those things. Not the implementations.
Ah. And JavaMail? There is only one functional JavaMail out there, and it
comes from Sun. Maybe Classpathx's can be considered functional. So we're
talking just about interfaces, and dummy stubs of classes without any real
functionality?
What's the point? To show that you can compile and link against the spec?
And, as Craig noted: "There is often what you might call "implementation" in
the javax.<spec> domain."
And how does this square with Geir's comment:
> What we're trying to avoid is for those projects that are doing
> compatible implementations, when people combine code from other
> projects, there are collisions.
Why would there be collisions if we are talking about a spec jar, except
when the spec jars are also the implementation?
I find that I am more in agreement with Craig and ... well ... Craig ...
hmmm ... odd coincidence. And both work for Sun. Odder still. In any
event, the idea of an map to where the JSRs are hosted makes sense, but an
uber-umbrella isn't making sense to me, so far.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Noel,
this is just for sources of javax.* NOT implementations. One location
for a servlet-api.jar, jaxrpc.jar, saaj.jar, xml-apis.jar.
-- dims
On 12/30/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> > There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
> > which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
> > as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
> > "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
> > different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
> > all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
> > enthusiasm.
>
> What exactly does this mean? That the source for Tomcat, JackRabbit,
> Geronimo, WS, Directory and all of the others will be moved to one place?
>
> Geir says:
>
> "The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
> causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
> J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
> in web-services land.
>
> I agree that this is a problem, but turning Geronimo into something worse
> than Jakarta ever was, or turning Jakarta back into its old self is not a
> solution. Getting projects to stop rolling their own, and to collaborate
> with the other projects is one solution. For example, if those Geronimo
> built artifacts are dupes, then why were they built instead of re-used? And
> we have similar situations all over the ASF.
>
> Geronimo was never intended to build everything. It was intended to build
> the infrastructure for pulling together all of the parts from around the ASF
> and elswhere as necessary that were required to build a J2EE server.
>
> If you want to have an ontological map of where each JSR is implemented
> around the ASF, for that I would be +1. We've discussed that idea before.
> If we want to make sure that these jars can be separately accessed, rather
> than just in a big release package, +1 of course. If we want a common
> distribution repository for the binaries, OK.
>
> But to have a single uber-umbrella for every JSR implementation?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/27/2005 9:17 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
>> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well as
>> other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
>> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
>> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
>> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
>> enthusiasm.
>>
>
> We've been talking about it for a while in geronimo - so yeah, might
> be a good thing to get started. (I took jcp-open off as this really
> isn't JCP specific...)
>
> How about here?
How do we get this started on Jakarta commons? Should I file a proposal?
Regards,
Alan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>
>>There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
>>which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
>>as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
>>"copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
>>different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
>>all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
>>enthusiasm.
>
>
> What exactly does this mean? That the source for Tomcat, JackRabbit,
> Geronimo, WS, Directory and all of the others will be moved to one place?
No - the spec jars for those things. Not the implementations.
>
> Geir says:
>
> "The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
> causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
> J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
> in web-services land.
We just did the spec jars. The actual implementations of course come
from Tomcat, WS, etc.
>
> I agree that this is a problem, but turning Geronimo into something worse
> than Jakarta ever was, or turning Jakarta back into its old self is not a
> solution. Getting projects to stop rolling their own, and to collaborate
> with the other projects is one solution. For example, if those Geronimo
> built artifacts are dupes, then why were they built instead of re-used? And
> we have similar situations all over the ASF.
Probably for completeness. We have 17 spec modules. We needed a
complete set. We all agree that it's dumb to have this implemented in
multiple places. Hence the idea.
>
> Geronimo was never intended to build everything. It was intended to build
> the infrastructure for pulling together all of the parts from around the ASF
> and elswhere as necessary that were required to build a J2EE server.
>
> If you want to have an ontological map of where each JSR is implemented
> around the ASF, for that I would be +1.
http://www.apache.org/jcp
(not complete yet, btw, but getting there)
We've discussed that idea before.
> If we want to make sure that these jars can be separately accessed, rather
> than just in a big release package, +1 of course. If we want a common
> distribution repository for the binaries, OK.
>
> But to have a single uber-umbrella for every JSR implementation?
>
That's not the point of the suggestion, at least as we've been thinking
about in in Geronimo for the last year :)
geir
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
> enthusiasm.
What exactly does this mean? That the source for Tomcat, JackRabbit,
Geronimo, WS, Directory and all of the others will be moved to one place?
Geir says:
"The point of this was that this is shared code as well as code that
causes collisions. Apache Geronimo had to implement this stuff for
J2EE, but it's a dupe of what we find elsewhere, like in tomcat and
in web-services land.
I agree that this is a problem, but turning Geronimo into something worse
than Jakarta ever was, or turning Jakarta back into its old self is not a
solution. Getting projects to stop rolling their own, and to collaborate
with the other projects is one solution. For example, if those Geronimo
built artifacts are dupes, then why were they built instead of re-used? And
we have similar situations all over the ASF.
Geronimo was never intended to build everything. It was intended to build
the infrastructure for pulling together all of the parts from around the ASF
and elswhere as necessary that were required to build a J2EE server.
If you want to have an ontological map of where each JSR is implemented
around the ASF, for that I would be +1. We've discussed that idea before.
If we want to make sure that these jars can be separately accessed, rather
than just in a big release package, +1 of course. If we want a common
distribution repository for the binaries, OK.
But to have a single uber-umbrella for every JSR implementation?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Starting a java specs project
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 27, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
> which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
> as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
> "copies" of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
> different Apache projects. It would be a great idea to move them
> all into one project. This idea, so far, has been met with much
> enthusiasm.
>
We've been talking about it for a while in geronimo - so yeah, might
be a good thing to get started. (I took jcp-open off as this really
isn't JCP specific...)
How about here?
geir
> How do we get this started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org